Stargate Problem

[Revy]

The armour was explicitly stated to have a shield,

Really? When? All I remember was Carter going on about how it can absorb energy weapons fire. They describe the armour as a 'technology', but I don't remember anyone saying it had shield tech.

yes, I know it was stated that the material was 'kevlar like' but it implicitly also means the dart penetrated the shield. The shield that shows every time they get hit with a staff weapon.

Can someone quote the scene where Carter talks about using a dart on the armour? I'm pretty sure she specifically says that the dart will work because the dart can slip through the fibers, not because darts have been shown to defeat Goa'uld shields.

And yes, I know the Ancient personal shield has inertial damping, nowhere not once not ever did I say or imply otherwise.

Sorry, I thought someone said Anubis likely developed the Kull armour from the Ancient shield tech seen in Atlantis, and someone argued against this because shields and inertial dampening are two different technologies - though Ancient personal shields clearly use both.

[Metahive]

Didn't some Kull warriors use personal cloaks in the video game simulation episode?

They were born out of Teal'c's subconscious desire to make things harder for himself. Kull Warriors would be a bit too brutish and unsubtle to make good use of personal cloaking fields anyway.

[Revy]

They were born out of Teal'c's subconscious desire to make things harder for himself. Kull Warriors would be a bit too brutish and unsubtle to make good use of personal cloaking fields anyway.

Why? Even though it was a simulation where the computer was plain cheating, the cloaked Kull didn't do anything that would be impossible or unlikely for an actual Kull warrior to pull off. And it's not like that Ashrak at the Alpha Site was very subtle once it got found out - it just started running around knocking people over. At least a cloaked Kull would use its gun to shoot people dead rather than just punching people the way that Ashrak did.

[Metahive]

And it's not like that Ashrak at the Alpha Site was very subtle once it got found out -

The last quoted part is the important one. The Ashrak did actually a fairly good job of setting Tokkra and Ja'far against each other before they got a clue that they had an unwanted visitor. I'd consider such subtlety to be beyond the purposefully simple-minded Kull Warriors.
Fact is we also just don't encounter a cloaked Kull outside of that one episode.

[Revy]

The last quoted part is the important one. The Ashrak did actually a fairly good job of setting Tokkra and Ja'far against each other before they got a clue that they had an unwanted visitor. I'd consider such subtlety to be beyond the purposefully simple-minded Kull Warriors.
Fact is we also just don't encounter a cloaked Kull outside of that one episode.

We also don't encounter a cloaked Ha'Tak outside of one episode, despite it being a clearly useful and good idea.

Yes, the Ashrak was good before it got found out. But once it got found out it was pretty useless. Seriously, the best it could come up with is to flip people through the air and bitch slap them? It didn't even try stabbing or slashing people at that point. And random spraying of bullets wouldn't have done squat against a cloaked Kull, and anti Kull weapons are not exactly good for a high rate of fire and arc coverage. Barring adapted armour to stop anti-kull guns, cloaking a Kull seems a good way to overcome its weakness to an anti-Kull gun, as you need accuracy to kill it, and being invisible makes accurately targetting it a bitch.

[Metahive]

We also don't encounter a cloaked Ha'Tak outside of one episode, despite it being a clearly useful and good idea.

Important distinction being that we don't encounter those cloaked Ha'taks within a simulation that's explicitely said to be made harder than reality.

Barring adapted armour to stop anti-kull guns, cloaking a Kull seems a good way to overcome its weakness to an anti-Kull gun, as you need accuracy to kill it, and being invisible makes accurately targetting it a bitch.

Except that Kulls move like slugs in combat and run danger of succumbing to lethal heart attacks when exerting themselves. The stream of fire from a Kull gun also makes it easier to locate them. Kulls are shock troops, they can take loads of punishment and dish out, cloaking them would be a waste of time and material.

[Revy]

Important distinction being that we don't encounter those cloaked Ha'taks within a simulation that's explicitely said to be made harder than reality.

Irrelevant to the point being discussed. You argued that a cloaked Kull was only seen in one episode, implying that if it was worth doing we'd see it done again. I argued that we also see a cloaked Ha'Tak (a cloaked fleet no less!) in one episode, yet despite it clearly working as intended and surprising the crap out of everyone, and essentially tipping the entire situation in Apophis' favour, we never see it done again. Does that mean it was a stupid idea to cloak a Ha'Tak? No, because it worked that one time. Why wasn't it used again? Who knows. Ask the writers. I cant see a reason why it wasnt, but just because it wasnt doesnt mean it was a stupid idea. The same holds true for the cloaked Kull - just because it only appeared in one episode doesn't mean you can say that the reason for this is because it was a worthless idea.

Except that Kulls move like slugs in combat and run danger of succumbing to lethal heart attacks when exerting themselves. The stream of fire from a Kull gun also makes it easier to locate them. Kulls are shock troops, they can take loads of punishment and dish out, cloaking them would be a waste of time and material.

The fact that they are slow moving means that there is all the more reason to cloak them - it gives them all the time they need to walk up behind you undetected and shoot you at point blank range. Which is in fact what we saw them do in that episode, and by no means was that impossible for a real Kull to do, so you cant argue the simulation angle on that. I mean the simulated Kulls arent bending reality like Neo, they still move and fight like real Kulls.

And I'm not saying cloak ALL Kulls. Cloak two or three, send them in, and have them use surprise attacks, ambush opponents, assassinate critical targets and then go apeshit in the ensuing chaos. Remember when they attacked the base that Sam was developing the anti-Kull weapon at? Their visibility allowed Sam to use the one weapon that existed at that time to kill those that came after her, set the self destruct and escape. A visible Kull then pursued Carter and she evaded it because she could see it coming.

Now, cloaked Kull in the same situation. Walks into base undetected, locates Sam and the anti-Kull tech, kills her before she even knows it is there, destroys the research and weapon, prevents the self destruct being set, and allows reinforcements to take over the base. Result - win for the bad guys.

Not cloaking even a single Kull in that situation allowed Carter to escape alive with the weapons technology needed to defeat the Kulls in the long run. And that's just one situation. Again, I'm not saying cloak them ALL, but one or two could do a lot more damage cloaked than uncloaked. It's not like it wouldn't confer any worthwhile advantage at all.

[Metahive]

You argued that a cloaked Kull was only seen in one episode, implying that if it was worth doing we'd see it done again.

No, I was very clearly seeing that speculating about the possible existence of cloaked Kull is moot since we never get to see one outside of that one simulation in that one episode, I used the word "also" when making that point. There falls this argument.

The fact that they are slow moving means that there is all the more reason to cloak them - it gives them all the time they need to walk up behind you undetected and shoot you at point blank range.

You already have Ashraks for such purposes. Why waste time and material to achieve redundancy? Would you propose giving every single army trooper a ghillie suit? You know the Kull were given this fancy armor so they didn't need to hide and cover before enemies, right? Most of their enemies didn't have Kull disruptors in sufficient numbers at their disposal anyway.

[Revy]

No, I was very clearly seeing that speculating about the possible existence of cloaked Kull is moot since we never get to see one outside of that one simulation in that one episode, I used the word "also" when making that point. There falls this argument.

But is there any logical reason why a Kull couldn't just strap on a cloak and use one? Just because we only see it happen in a simulation doesn't mean it couldnt happen in the reality of the show.

You already have Ashraks for such purposes.

Except if you know a cloaked Ashrak is around you can spray and pray, or use claymores or traps to waste them. All kinds of conventional weapons that don't require accurate placed shots will work on a cloaked Ashrak, but not on a cloaked Kull. Plus there are ways to defeat a cloak. Doing so on an Ashrak means you can then kill it with any weapon on hand. Doing so against a Kull means you still need an anti-Kull disrupter - two bits of tech in other words to defeat a cloaked Kull, one of which Anubis' Goa'uld enemies didn't have. Hell, they might not have had either.

Why waste time and material to achieve redundancy?

How is it a waste?

Goauld Techie: Hey Anubis, I've just finished making a batch of personal cloaks. Shall I give them to our Ashraks?
Anubis: No, hand them to those three Kull warriors instead.

... how is that any more of a waste?

Would you propose giving every single army trooper a ghillie suit?

*facepalm*

Please go back and read my post. Specifically the bit where I say at least twice, "I'm not suggesting giving ALL Kulls a cloak". I think that makes your question a bit redundant.

You know the Kull were given this fancy armor so they didn't need to hide and cover before enemies, right?

So ... if a soldier is issued body armour, he shouldn't use stealth also if it'd be useful in a certain situation? Just because he has a tactical vest and helmet, he shouldn't sneak around a guard and shoot him in the back?

And as I said, I'm not suggesting giving ALL Kulls a cloak. But give a couple and send them in ahead of the main force and you will give the enemy a nasty bite up the ass. Everyone expects Kulls to just walk up to you like a Napoleonic footsoldier. Imagine your surprise when one of them shoots you in the face at point blank range before you can sound the alarm or trigger a self destruct.

Hell, I'm not saying send in an army of cloaked Kulls. Just one or two. That's all.

Most of their enemies didn't have Kull disruptors in sufficient numbers at their disposal anyway.

But enough kinetic energy can still kill them. A big enough bomb can wipe them out. You can beam them up with rings. None of which works very well unless you can see them first. And at first, the Kulls were used as lone assassins. Sure, it's more intimidating to have one wade through a wall of fire and off a minor Goauld with impunity. Then again, seeing your god struck down by something invisible out of the blue ought to instill a bit of fear and awe as well.

[NecronLord]

Really? When? All I remember was Carter going on about how it can absorb energy weapons fire. They describe the armour as a 'technology', but I don't remember anyone saying it had shield tech.

I must concede that it's 'some sort of advanced energy absorption technology' and not a shield. Though frankly, there's no difference in observed behaviour.

Can someone quote the scene where Carter talks about using a dart on the armour? I'm pretty sure she specifically says that the dart will work because the dart can slip through the fibers, not because darts have been shown to defeat Goa'uld shields.

Which was never what I said. Nonetheless, it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck: There's no reason to assume that it's a 'wank' breakthrough compared to a more sensible application of the same principles as the energy shield introduced in episode 8. I think you may be misinterpreting what I'm saying, which is, the Kull Warrior doesn't really introduce anything new in terms of defence, it's a perfectly sensible progression of what they had without requiring any 'wank' breakthroughs.

Sorry, I thought someone said Anubis likely developed the Kull armour from the Ancient shield tech seen in Atlantis, and someone argued against this because shields and inertial dampening are two different technologies - though Ancient personal shields clearly use both.

For what it's worth, the goa'uld one also includes some kind of inertial damping, given that people using it can be squarely hit with staff weapons repeatedly - which are known to pick up and throw their targets (see the Siler test) - without even having their aim jostled.

[NecronLord]

Most of their enemies didn't have Kull disruptors in sufficient numbers at their disposal anyway.

It'd be far cheaper to kill them by shooting them with poison tarts (instead of tranquilisers) using something really nasty like botulinum toxin.

[Crazedwraith]

My Season 7 is super rusty.. Do the Kulls even have personal shields? From Evolution, I thought they just have energy absorbing armour and super-duper space Kevlar. The reason the darts worked was not the low-velocity penetration clause on shields, it was the thin needle slipping through the Kevlar.

[Revy]

My Season 7 is super rusty.. Do the Kulls even have personal shields? From Evolution, I thought they just have energy absorbing armour and super-duper space Kevlar. The reason the darts worked was not the low-velocity penetration clause on shields, it was the thin needle slipping through the Kevlar.

That's what I'm saying.

Which was never what I said. Nonetheless, it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck: There's no reason to assume that it's a 'wank' breakthrough compared to a more sensible application of the same principles as the energy shield introduced in episode 8. I think you may be misinterpreting what I'm saying, which is, the Kull Warrior doesn't really introduce anything new in terms of defence, it's a perfectly sensible progression of what they had without requiring any 'wank' breakthroughs.

When did I call it wank breakthrough? All I said was that the dart worked against the armour because it used a sharp point to slip through the fabric, not that the armour used some kind of shield tech (as you claimed) and that is why the dart worked. Stop putting words in my mouth. All I'm saying is what Carter said;

CARTER: "The warrior's armor is able to resist our strongest armor piercing weapons, as well as absorb energy weapon fire. However, we've discovered that the material is made up of a close-knit fiber that's very similar to Kevlar. Meaning, something small and sharp should be able to penetrate it ... such as a fine-tipped Trinium dart."

Which is - dart defeated armour because it was made of a woven material. NOT that dart defeated armour because it was a slow dart and bypassed Goa'uld shield tech. There's no indication that Kull armour is anything but armour, and there is no evidence that it uses some kind of force fields or shield tech. It may do, but if so that has nothing to do with a dart being able to slip through the soft fabric part of the suit.

[NecronLord]

Which is - dart defeated armour because it was made of a woven material. NOT that dart defeated armour because it was a slow dart and bypassed Goa'uld shield tech. There's no indication that Kull armour is anything but armour,

Oh there rather is. Or at least its properties transcend the absurd if you insist it cannot have a powered component, given that it can take SMGs to the flexible portion and not so much as move. At the very least it is energy absorbing armour plus an inertial compensator powerful enough to keep it on its feet in front of sizeable explosions.

and there is no evidence that it uses some kind of force fields or shield tech. It may do, but if so that has nothing to do with a dart being able to slip through the soft fabric part of the suit.

Yes yes. You've got me, turns out it's not explicitly said to be a shield, mea culpa, I don't remember sixteen and a half seasons of TV and a couple of movies word for word after all - are you actually interested in my original point; whether or not they're 'overpowered?' If you're not interested beyond whether or not it has a shield, good, we're done talking, you win. If you are, then I still stick with my original point:

It is in no way a major departure from other goa'uld technology (indeed, energy-absorbing armour was shown on Aris Boch in season three) seen in the rest of the show, aside from the 'animation of inert organic matter' aspect.

[NecronLord]

Also, because I feel a need to prove my nerd-fu after that 'embarassment'

Does that mean it was a stupid idea to cloak a Ha'Tak? No, because it worked that one time. Why wasn't it used again? Who knows. Ask the writers.

A goa'uld mothership cloaking generator did put in a re-appearance...

After a fashion.

It's remarkably small.

As an aside, it's hard to see, but the jaffa seem to bear the mark of Ba'al (unsurprising, as that was season ten, when the makeup would be set up for that) which implies he got one at some point.

[Xon]

I like your ideas, though they did have a personal cloak in SGC simulations, so it's possible that the goa'uld may have used them with that too.

Personal cloaking has only been demonstrated by a few Goa'uld system lords(the Ashrak come from 1 system lord, and rented out), probably because they keep it under lock and key given how awesome a tech it is. That is not to say Anubis couldn't implement it, but he would need to 'discover' the technology by legitimate means that someone else could duplicate.

And Goa'uld have a pathological need to be in control, so Anubis is limited to implement technology in such a way that others can duplicate it but securing it so others can not.

Now, for my future fanfic purpouses, any more good ideas like the analysis teams?

Ohh, you plan on resuming writing Stargate fanfics?

Frankly, the Goa'uld have such insane technology it stops being a matter of can they do it but can they think of doing it.

With man-sized inertia dampening capable of making arbitary objects lighter & heavier on demand, you have almost completely solved the logistic problems of a solider carrying thier kit in addition to making most weapons relying on momentum transfer from working effectively, and the magic space kevlar makes bullets rather worthless. And since it's a full body armor, it makes shrapnal (the major wounding agent on a modern battle field) completely worthless.

With a Goa'uld micromanaging it's host's body's reponses & resources without a care for overall health you can push them for dramatically longer than would be physically possible for a normal human. Then you have the blatently magical Goa'uld biotech which could provide a host of wacky drugs and nanotech to push a human body even furthur.

[Metahive]

It'd be far cheaper to kill them by shooting them with poison tarts (instead of tranquilisers) using something really nasty like botulinum toxin.

Well, they still carry a Goa'uld inside them and this means that they have a remarkable resistance to poison and germs, look at what huge amounts of tranquilizers they needed to put down Jolinar-Carter and the Kull shrugged even that off casually. Must be the enhanced metabolism. What would be worth a try though were to use poison darts coated in that special anti-Goa'uld toxin the Tokkra created.
Even better, considering one explicitely mentioned weaknesses of the Kull is their over-taxed heart, why not shoot them with something that increases blood pressure? Why did the writers introduce a weakness and then never capitalized on it safe for letting Teal'c and Bra'tak survive one single encounter?

That is not to say Anubis couldn't implement it, but he would need to 'discover' the technology by legitimate means that someone else could duplicate.

The Ancients had cloaking tech as a variation of their shielding technology so it could be possible that Anubis had therefore knowledge of it too.

But is there any logical reason why a Kull couldn't just strap on a cloak and use one? Just because we only see it happen in a simulation doesn't mean it couldnt happen in the reality of the show.

Possible is everything, but between their introduction in late season 7 and their complete annihilation at the end of season 8, cloaked Kull are never shown outside of a simulation and their canonical existence beyond that is therefore questionable.

Except if you know a cloaked Ashrak is around you can spray and pray, or use claymores or traps to waste them.

A found out Ashrak is an Ashrak that has either failed or already accomplished his mission. Look at the Ashrak that killed Jollinar, that one didn't even need cloaking to carry his mission out. They're competent enough.

How is it a waste?

Goauld Techie: Hey Anubis, I've just finished making a batch of personal cloaks. Shall I give them to our Ashraks?
Anubis: No, hand them to those three Kull warriors instead.

... how is that any more of a waste?

It's a waste since Ashraks can use those cloaks way more efficiently and carry out the type of mission a cloak would be a sensible addition to. Kull are frontline troops, they only need armor and firepower.

*facepalm*

Please go back and read my post. Specifically the bit where I say at least twice, "I'm not suggesting giving ALL Kulls a cloak". I think that makes your question a bit redundant.

It makes your proposal redundant since as I already said, Ashraks are better at this sort of mission simply because they're not mentally stunted like the Kull. You might rather suggest giving the Ashrak Kull armor (if cloaking and Kull armor can actually work in unison outside of that simulation).

And as I said, I'm not suggesting giving ALL Kulls a cloak. But give a couple and send them in ahead of the main force and you will give the enemy a nasty bite up the ass. Everyone expects Kulls to just walk up to you like a Napoleonic footsoldier. Imagine your surprise when one of them shoots you in the face at point blank range before you can sound the alarm or trigger a self destruct.

Why? Kull don't need to give the enemy any more a "nasty bite up the ass" than their almost complete invincibility and superior firepower already provides. You're just needlessly complicating things.
If you want to terrorize the enemy, use the Ashraks for reasons already mentioned. It's like arguing that some M1 Abrams should be outfitted with tactical nuclear missile launchers. Fancy and for sure a shock for the enemy, but not really necessary and rather wastefully gimmicky.

But enough kinetic energy can still kill them. A big enough bomb can wipe them out. You can beam them up with rings. None of which works very well unless you can see them first. And at first, the Kulls were used as lone assassins. Sure, it's more intimidating to have one wade through a wall of fire and off a minor Goauld with impunity. Then again, seeing your god struck down by something invisible out of the blue ought to instill a bit of fear and awe as well.

Anubis and later Ba'al managed to completely overwhelm the opposing system lords with their Kull army lacking cloaks, so it seems those weaknesses are not really much of a factor and seeing your "god" getting struck down and his entire army defeated by one single, visible individual is arguably more shocking since Ashraks assassinating Goa'uld from the dark are already known.

[Revy]

are you actually interested in my original point; whether or not they're 'overpowered?'

But ... I agree with you there, they are overpowered.

It is in no way a major departure from other goa'uld technology (indeed, energy-absorbing armour was shown on Aris Boch in season three) seen in the rest of the show, aside from the 'animation of inert organic matter' aspect.

But like you said, Kull armour is stupidly overpowered, and there's a heck of a difference from absorbing zat blasts to being able to walk through C4 and Claymore explosions as if it were rain. And if it were derived purely from Goa'uld tech, then why was it Anubis and his much touted Ancient knowledge that develops the armour, and not any of the thousands of other Goa'uld? The show clearly hammers into us that Anubis is trouncing everyone thanks to new tech he makes using Ancient knowledge.

Possible is everything, but between their introduction in late season 7 and their complete annihilation at the end of season 8, cloaked Kull are never shown outside of a simulation and their canonical existence beyond that is therefore questionable.

But ... I wasn't trying to say they were canon. I was just saying I thought they might be a good idea, that's all.

It's a waste since Ashraks can use those cloaks way more efficiently and carry out the type of mission a cloak would be a sensible addition to. Kull are frontline troops, they only need armor and firepower.

I guess I was just giving Anubis too much credit. I mean the guy manages to crank out thousands upon thousands of super duper impervious armour suits for his Kull army, I figured the guy had no trouble making advanced tech with ease. Of course the armour could be much easier to make than a cloak.

It makes your proposal redundant since as I already said, Ashraks are better at this sort of mission simply because they're not mentally stunted like the Kull. You might rather suggest giving the Ashrak Kull armor (if cloaking and Kull armor can actually work in unison outside of that simulation).

All I was saying was that I wasn't suggesting giving every Kull a cloak, just one or two, yet you ignored that and implied I was saying give it to all of them.

And giving an Ashrak Kull armour seems like a good idea actually. When Vala wore that armour the anti kull weapon didn't work on her. An Ashrak with the armour would be as difficult to hurt as a Kull but without the achilles heel they have.

Why? Kull don't need to give the enemy any more a "nasty bite up the ass" than their almost complete invincibility and superior firepower already provides. You're just needlessly complicating things.

Argh, I already explained why. The Kull's chief weakness is a slow rate of fire energy weapon developed to kill them. To use it, you have to shoot them with it. If you cant see them then that becomes hard to do, especially if you dont even know they are there in the first place. And I notice that you completely ignored the in-universe example I gave where a cloaked Kull could have succeeded where several visible ones failed. In fact had Anubis cloaked even one Kull in that situation, it could have destroyed the one weapon that could actually kill Kulls, and Anubis probably would have defeated everyone after that.

Anubis and later Ba'al managed to completely overwhelm the opposing system lords with their Kull army lacking cloaks,

The opposing system lords are chumps who were getting bitch slapped by Anubis before he even showed his face, and well before he brought out the Kulls and his Death Star. Anubis kicks ass, the Kulls were just icing on the cake.

And as I mentioned with the above example, one cloaked Kull could have walked into the offworld base, killed Sam, destroyed the research, and prevented the self destruct being set so that the remaining Kulls could come in and capture the base intact and with no losses. But he didn't send in a cloaked Kull, and instead Sam shot and killed the Kull that came after her and blew up the base, killing several more Kulls. She then evaded another uncloaked Kull long enough to be rescued, allowing Earth to recover the antiKull weapon and ultimately kick the Kulls collective asses. Result - failure for Anubis, win for Earth. And all because Anubis didn't even consider sending in a single cloaked Kull warrior.

[Metahive]

All I was saying was that I wasn't suggesting giving every Kull a cloak, just one or two, yet you ignored that and implied I was saying give it to all of them.

I didn't ignore it, I told you why it would be redundant to just cloak a few Kull.

Argh, I already explained why. The Kull's chief weakness is a slow rate of fire energy weapon developed to kill them. To use it, you have to shoot them with it. If you cant see them then that becomes hard to do, especially if you dont even know they are there in the first place. And I notice that you completely ignored the in-universe example I gave where a cloaked Kull could have succeeded where several visible ones failed. In fact had Anubis cloaked even one Kull in that situation, it could have destroyed the one weapon that could actually kill Kulls, and Anubis probably would have defeated everyone after that.

I didn't ignore it as it is irrelevant. Any reason why it would have to be a cloaked Kull instead of a cloaked Ashrak who would have been better suited at infiltrating an enemy compound anyway? You have so far failed to convince me that adding a cloak to the Kull would be beneficial instead of wasteful and redundant.

The opposing system lords are chumps who were getting bitch slapped by Anubis before he even showed his face, and well before he brought out the Kulls and his Death Star. Anubis kicks ass, the Kulls were just icing on the cake.

Bitch-slapped? He trolled them occasionally but until he had his superweapons ready he couldn't really overtly move against them.

And as I mentioned with the above example, one cloaked Kull could have walked into the offworld base, killed Sam, destroyed the research, and prevented the self destruct being set so that the remaining Kulls could come in and capture the base intact and with no losses. But he didn't send in a cloaked Kull, and instead Sam shot and killed the Kull that came after her and blew up the base, killing several more Kulls. She then evaded another uncloaked Kull long enough to be rescued, allowing Earth to recover the antiKull weapon and ultimately kick the Kulls collective asses. Result - failure for Anubis, win for Earth. And all because Anubis didn't even consider sending in a single cloaked Kull warrior.

Or a cloaked Ashrak. Or because it's the hoary "villains must suck because they don't defeat the heroes" argument again.

[Revy]

I didn't ignore it, I told you why it would be redundant to just cloak a few Kull.

You did, when you asked me;

"Would you propose giving every single army trooper a ghillie suit?"

Despite the fact that in my previous post I had stressed that in no way was I suggesting giving every Kull warrior a cloak.

I didn't ignore it as it is irrelevant. Any reason why it would have to be a cloaked Kull instead of a cloaked Ashrak who would have been better suited at infiltrating an enemy compound anyway?

Well if it were me, I'd trust a nearly indestructible super soldier with no mind or will of its own, over a Goa'uld assassin that might just decide to take the research and sell it to another Goa'uld, or could wind up getting caught in the crossfire of the ensuing battle.

You have so far failed to convince me that adding a cloak to the Kull would be beneficial instead of wasteful and redundant.

And I guess I'm not going to either. Hell, it was just a thought. If you don't think it'd be worth doing then fair enough, I'll drop the idea.

Bitch-slapped? He trolled them occasionally but until he had his superweapons ready he couldn't really overtly move against them.

Trolled them? He kicked their asses to such an extent that they had to hold a summit meeting to decide what to do about it, and then he had someone show up and basically say "Anubis can walk all over you, so you can either let him join you or place yourselves at his mercy".

Or a cloaked Ashrak. Or because it's the hoary "villains must suck because they don't defeat the heroes" argument again.

True, an Ashrak could have done the job. But if I were Anubis, I'd trust a Kull to get it done more than an Ashrak. In fact he sent the Kull to do it rather than using an Ashrak for that mission, so maybe he didn't trust them to get the job done either. I still say he should have sent in at least one cloaked Kull ahead of the main attack, but Anubis is as arrogant as many Goa'uld and didn't want to keep stacking the deck in his favour when he was sure the hand he was dealing was good enough as was. It clearly wasn't. He should have added another Ace.

[NecronLord]

I'm saying they're not overpowered.

But like you said, Kull armour is stupidly overpowered, and there's a heck of a difference from absorbing zat blasts to being able to walk through C4 and Claymore explosions as if it were rain. And if it were derived purely from Goa'uld tech, then why was it Anubis and his much touted Ancient knowledge that develops the armour, and not any of the thousands of other Goa'uld? The show clearly hammers into us that Anubis is trouncing everyone thanks to new tech he makes using Ancient knowledge.

Anubis' key development is the host, made with ancient technology. The host's physiology makes the thing work safely. It's implied on screen with:

SEL'MAK: I will wear the armour of Anubis' assassin. According to your account on Ramius' planet, it passed through the force field trap.

BRA'TAC: But at what physical cost? We have no way of knowing.

CARTER: The force field around that Stargate has got to be more powerful than the one we used.

DAD: I'm sorry kid; I'm with Selmak on this one. He'll keep me alive.

While Vala uses it later, it's a fair bet she's taking her life in her hands doing so.

If one wishes to admit the RPG material (the sourcbook it's in was written before the episode aired, and had a fairly in depth look) as canonical, the suit's functions draw power from naquadah blood, and are lethal to any long term user who is not a kull warrior.

[Revy]

... except that in the same episode Vala uses it, Daniel uses it as well with no visible ill effects whatsoever. He seems perfectly fine, as does Vala. None of them are even breaking a sweat from wearing the suits.

And by the 'what physical cost' line, I always interpreted that to mean "Yeah the Kull walked through a force field, but that might have hurt like a bitch to do so". Remember, even though the suits look pretty impervious, enough kinetic energy can still kill a suited Kill warrior. So the suits don't stop everything. So walking through a force field, even while wearing one of those suits, might still impart enough trauma/force to squish your internal organs. Who knows? It's not like the Kull warrior who did it is likely to say "Why yes, walking through that shield trap gave me a frightful headache you know."

Not overpowered? Vala single handedly took out the entire crew of the Prometheus and stole the ship out from under them. Vala. On her own. Thanks largely to that suit. A Kull warrior walked through a C4 blast without even flinching. It took machine gun fire to the soft fabric part of the armour without a scratch. The armour seems almost as hard as Superman. The only reason the Kull were ever even defeated was because an anti-Kull lifeform death way was devised to kill them. Without that, the System Lords were getting curbstomped by them. Anubis getting taken out of the picture also helped a lot.

[Metahive]

Well if it were me, I'd trust a nearly indestructible super soldier with no mind or will of its own, over a Goa'uld assassin that might just decide to take the research and sell it to another Goa'uld, or could wind up getting caught in the crossfire of the ensuing battle.

We haven't seen a single rogue Ashrak or ever heard about there being problems with their loyalty, so that risk should be negligible.

Trolled them? He kicked their asses to such an extent that they had to hold a summit meeting to decide what to do about it, and then he had someone show up and basically say "Anubis can walk all over you, so you can either let him join you or place yourselves at his mercy".

I think you misunderstood the point of that summit, they weren't concerned all that much about the casualities than they were about not knowing who was behind it. Also, Anubis had to bribe himself back into the council by destroying the Tokkra main base on Revanna, he didn't have the resources or means to blackmail them into doing it, hence Yu later chastising his fellows for being so trusting.

True, an Ashrak could have done the job. But if I were Anubis, I'd trust a Kull to get it done more than an Ashrak. In fact he sent the Kull to do it rather than using an Ashrak for that mission, so maybe he didn't trust them to get the job done either. I still say he should have sent in at least one cloaked Kull ahead of the main attack, but Anubis is as arrogant as many Goa'uld and didn't want to keep stacking the deck in his favour when he was sure the hand he was dealing was good enough as was. It clearly wasn't. He should have added another Ace.

One, we don't know if he even knew that they were developing a Kull disruptor on the Alpha Site, all we get to know is that either a Ja'far or a Tokkra let its position slip to an agent of Anubis. Two, sending a Ha'tak to bomb the site would have been superior over anything else, not fooling around with cloaked Kull.

[NecronLord]

For what it's worth, the aforementioned RPG sourcebook identifies at least two System Lords (Kali and Marduk) as former-Ashrak who not only developed thier own agendas but were successul enough to be System Lords.

[Crazedwraith]

We haven't seen a single rogue Ashrak or ever heard about there being problems with their loyalty, so that risk should be negligible.

They're goa'uld Loyalty risks are built in, along with the memories of a thousand hitlers, as the series puts it.