OC Republican continues to reinforces racist stereotype

[Phantasee]

I don't think Alphawolf is racist, I think he's just playing Devil's Advocate. Unfortunately, he sucks at it and the position is pretty much indefensible.

[Metahive]

Also do you mind me asking where you live? Because your belief that boy is also racist when used by a white guy towards a black guy always, makes me feel like you might not live in anywhere urban or may deal with an older age group because that term is used affectionately and no one takes any racist connotation around where I live all the time.

Ah, that surely didn't take long to come up. Answer, so whoop-dee-what? Black ghetto thugs affectionally call each other "nigger" all the time, doesn't remove the racist connotations either. Your personal incredulity as to how term X,Y and Z could possibly be used in a racist manner is irrelevant.

Proving it's not racist, wouldn't that be proving a negative? Also I never said that the specific reason it's used, I said it could be that or any other infinite reasons.

Then prove instead that there's a good, non-racist reason to call Obama an ape and why he of all Democrats is to be singled out for this. There, challenge's on.

[Twoyboy]

It's worth pointing out that the context in which they are calling him an ape is that he is born from an ape. Not that he looks or acts like one, but that his family are apes. It doesn't really make any sense if they are merely trying to call him a buffoon. It makes a LOT of sense if they are saying he is of a savage race, closer to apes than white people.

I've lived in Australia all my life, and even I find it odd that you could try to frame this as anything other than a racist insult.

[The Romulan Republic]

It's worth pointing out that the context in which they are calling him an ape is that he is born from an ape. Not that he looks or acts like one, but that his family are apes. It doesn't really make any sense if they are merely trying to call him a buffoon. It makes a LOT of sense if they are saying he is of a savage race, closer to apes than white people.

That's a good point. Like I said before, I'm pretty sure this is racist, but I don't think calling a black person an ape is automatically racist. It could just indicate stupidity, etc, as discussed above.

[Metahive]

There are so many ways of calling a person stupid other than likening him/her to apes, so what would be the justification for choosing the one that's loaded?

[Alphawolf55]

I don't think Alphawolf is racist, I think he's just playing Devil's Advocate. Unfortunately, he sucks at it and the position is pretty much indefensible.

I thank you for not calling me a racist.

But now for you saying my argument sucks, you can say that except you guys haven't provided a consistent reasoning argument against me and that's my problem.

If you guys want to say 'Calling a black person an ape is inherently racist and for that reason the insult should be left off the table because not only is an insult with a dirty history but by calling even a white person an ape, you're making insult comments about black people, in the same way using the N-word does' I'd consider that consistent, respectable and okay.

Or even if you want to say "Yeah you could have reasons to call a black person an ape and not be racist, but you shouldn't because of the personal history of the word to that race and that makes you a dick' That too makes sense, you're admitting that yeah there's a double standard but it's about being polite, in the same way you wouldn't make a 'your mom" joke to the kid whose mom just died of cancer.

But it sounds like what people are saying is "There are legitimate reasons to use ape and monkey as an insult towards white people or asians or mexicans. But while those reasons exist none of those reasons could ever apply to black people because there's a history of people using racist reasons"

It doesn't make sense from a logical perspective, sure logically the majority of the usage is racially charged judging by who it comes from (Birthers) by why are we declaring that all other reasons automatically must be struck out? We admit, it's somehow possible when the subject is other people but now it's magically impossible. It just doesn't seem consistent.

[Phantasee]

"Or even if you want to say "Yeah you could have reasons to call a black person an ape and not be racist, but you shouldn't because of the personal history of the word to that race and that makes you a dick' That too makes sense, you're admitting that yeah there's a double standard but it's about being polite, in the same way you wouldn't make a 'your mom" joke to the kid whose mom just died of cancer."

Seems to me you have a hearing problem, because this is what I'm talking about. Context. It's not so much about politeness, and it's not necessarily a double standard. White guy called 'ape' doesn't have the same context as black guy called 'ape'.

Call this a rock:

and call this a rock:

and you see why people associate different meanings with different subjects.

Throw in a crack rock and you've got three connotations for rock that depend on the subject you are applying the word to.

[Metahive]

But now for you saying my argument sucks, you can say that except you guys haven't provided a consistent reasoning argument against me and that's my problem.

We have, it's just that you ignore them in favor of just repeating yourself incessantly.

If you guys want to say 'Calling a black person an ape is inherently racist and for that reason the insult should be left off the table because not only is an insult with a dirty history but by calling even a white person an ape, you're making insult comments about black people, in the same way using the N-word does' I'd consider that consistent, respectable and okay.

Why's calling a white person an ape a racist slur against black people? Which parallel bizarro dimension are you hailing from?

Or even if you want to say "Yeah you could have reasons to call a black person an ape and not be racist, but you shouldn't because of the personal history of the word to that race and that makes you a dick' That too makes sense, you're admitting that yeah there's a double standard but it's about being polite, in the same way you wouldn't make a 'your mom" joke to the kid whose mom just died of cancer.

Here comes the Political Correctness Gone Mad argument, gotta' bring 'em all up, eh? You for sure know your racist apologetics for a supposed non-racist.

[The Romulan Republic]

Here comes the Political Correctness Gone Mad argument, gotta' bring 'em all up, eh? You for sure know your racist apologetics for a supposed non-racist.

So any criticism of political correctness automatically means you're a racist?

[Metahive]

Correction, any complaint about political correctness following a stream of inane racist apologetics does so. Also, I asked you a question and await an answer, why use a loaded term when there are so many "innocuous" words that can be used to attack a person's intelligence?

[Simon_Jester]

What Twoyboy said.

I can at least imagine this as a (horribly clueless) non-racist insult if it were only Obama who was being compared to an ape. If there's a perception that someone is big and stupid, or clumsy, or whatever, calling them a gorilla or the like makes a certain amount of sense.

But there's a problem with that idea. It doesn't really make sense thematically. We compare people to animals when they have particular traits associated with those animals: we call a docile, easily led person a sheep, and a cowardly, treacherous person a rat, but not the other way around.

When Bush was compared to a monkey, it was usually because someone was intentionally trying to imply that he was out of his depth, that he was mindlessly copying other people's behavior, that he was doing things which made problems worse- like a monkey flinging his own dung. All those allusions make sense for a monkey, because they are behaviors traditionally associated with monkeys in Western society: the mischievous little creature who's much less clever than he thinks.

Likewise, calling someone an "ape" is usually meant to highlight primitive, clumsy, or stupid behavior. But when we compare Obama to an ape, we imply that Obama is stupid, clumsy, and primitive. Those are not things that he is normally accused of being; it is an anomaly. A very strange thing. We might compare Obama to other animals, but why an ape?

This does not make a lot of sense, viewed this way.

Whereas it makes a lot of sense when we look at the comment in light of the long- very very long- history of racist white people portraying black people as apes. That has hung around for a long time, and when you look at how it's set up as propaganda, it's easy to see why it's worked for racists for so long. It has strong thematic associations. Apes mostly come from Africa; white racists like to make use of this association. Apes are seen as stupid, primitive, and animalistic; this is how white racists like to present blacks, because in the racist narrative, blacks are thought of as the "manual labor people," unfit to make decisions and hold authority even over themselves.

Whereas, you will notice, Asians and native Americans are NOT compared to apes in racist propaganda- for a good reason: those are not the negative traits the racists are trying to pin on those people. They might occasionally represent an Asian as a monkey, but that's drawing on a different set of associations- as above, the monkey is associated with being small, weak, prone to imitating others, and prone to being a lot less clever than he thinks he is.

...

So the joke makes much less sense as "comparing Obama to an ape the way I might compare some a docile, cowardly person to a sheep." Even among the far right, Obama isn't normally criticized for being too dumb or too primitive, and those are the traits that would make it logical to associate him with an ape.

And it makes so much more sense as "comparing Obama to an ape because I want to highlight the idea that being black makes him stupid, primitive, and clumsy." Because people have been doing that for hundreds of years, and there are still Americans who will find that entertaining.

Just comparing those two explanations alone would make me think that the preponderance of evidence supports the idea that this cartoon is a racist crack at Obama. But there's more information, that makes me think it even more likely.

This picture isn't just saying Obama is an ape. It's saying Obama is an ape born to other apes. It's not just a question of Obama having some traits that lead others to compare him to an ape; it's a matter of heredity, that he is not just an ape but also the descendant of other apes.

People might compare Bush Jr. to a monkey, sure. But they never used that to compare his mother and father to monkeys. That's something I cannot for the life of me imagine being done for any reason other than the desire to invoke and play off of racist attitudes.

[The Romulan Republic]

Correction, any complaint about political correctness following a stream of inane racist apologetics does so. Also, I asked you a question and await an answer, why use a loaded term when there are so many "innocuous" words that can be used to attack a person's intelligence?

I can think of at least three reasons:

1. Thoughtlessness.

2. Deliberately making a point (say, that the word is not racist, and shouldn't be treated as such).

3. Not giving a shit, because one does not find it racist.

[Metahive]

Ignorance, callousness and obstinacy? So you admit there are actually no good reasons that you could think of? In at least two of them you'd still have to apologize when your folly was pointed out, don't you agree?

[Alphawolf55]

We have, it's just that you ignore them in favor of just repeating yourself incessantly

Bullshit you've proven nothing. You just keep screeching 'HISTORY HAS SHOWN IT HAS RACIST CONNOTATION THUS IT ALWAYS HAS RACIST CONNOTATIONS'. But here's the thing, if someone made an insult towards a guy not knowing his race (outside of the slurs since those comparing someone unfavorably to those races), that person most likely wouldn't be seen as a racist even if that insult was sometimes used against certain groups. If the person knew the person's race but called him the insult for the same reason, it doesn't make him racist, just a dick. Until you prove that knowing one's race changes the motivation of their insults you've proven jackshit.

Why's calling a white person an ape a racist slur against black people? Which parallel bizarro dimension are you hailing from?

Idk, maybe because it's a word with dark history and any use of it as an insult brings back bad memories? I'm just saying it would be a consistent position that I'd respect not that everyone should adopt it.

Here comes the Political Correctness Gone Mad argument, gotta' bring 'em all up, eh? You for sure know your racist apologetics for a supposed non-racist.

How is that political correctness gone mad? It's a legitimate position.You understand you could treat everyone and all groups 100% the same but also understand that different people and different groups have sensitivities about different subjects. Thus you treat them according to their sensitivies as a form of respect towards said individuals and groups. This is actually the position most people take in life.

Simon: I think you make a mistake though. Assuming that the Republicans see Obama as intelligent. We see Obama as intelligent because he is, but a popular view of him on the far right is that he's an big ear (even Obama makes fun of his own ears) goofy idiot who only appears intelligent when in front of a teleprompter.

[Alphawolf55]

Seems to me you have a hearing problem, because this is what I'm talking about. Context. It's not so much about politeness, and it's not necessarily a double standard. White guy called 'ape' doesn't have the same context as black guy called 'ape'.

Call this a rock:
and call this a rock:
and you see why people associate different meanings with different subjects.

Throw in a crack rock and you've got three connotations for rock that depend on the subject you are applying the word to

I would absolutely agree that context makes a difference, but I'd argue that context of indentification and context of motives are different. You can take a singular fact and form the context for those rocks, it's not always the same for deducing someone's motives. You don't just take singular facts to form someone's motives, rather I'd say you gather multiple facts when forming context. Like in the OP, the context shouldn't be just 'White person calls black President ape' it should be 'Birther calls black President ape' that's what provides the proper context, not just the subject, but the decisions and positions of the giver of that insult.

[Phantasee]

Actually Simon does a much better job of explaining this, so I withdraw.

[Metahive]

Bullshit you've proven nothing. You just keep screeching 'HISTORY HAS SHOWN IT HAS RACIST CONNOTATION THUS IT ALWAYS HAS RACIST CONNOTATIONS'. But here's the thing, if someone made an insult towards a guy not knowing his race (outside of the slurs since those comparing someone unfavorably to those races), that person most likely wouldn't be seen as a racist even if that insult was sometimes used against certain groups. If the person knew the person's race but called him the insult for the same reason, it doesn't make him racist, just a dick. Until you prove that knowing one's race changes the motivation of their insults you've proven jackshit.

I'm not responsible for as to what you delude yourself into thinking my argument is. I never said "anyone making this comparison is a racist", I consistently called the allusion itself to be racially loaded due to historical connotations. There goes your dishonest attempt at burning a strawman.

Idk, maybe because it's a word with dark history and any use of it as an insult brings back bad memories? I'm just saying it would be a consistent position that I'd respect not that everyone should adopt it.

It brings back bad memories when used on blacks due to the historical context. Put another brick into that wall of ignorance, why don't you.

How is that political correctness gone mad? It's a legitimate position.You understand you could treat everyone and all groups 100% the same but also understand that different people and different groups have sensitivities about different subjects. Thus you treat them according to their sensitivies as a form of respect towards said individuals and groups. This is actually the position most people take in life.

I have absolutely no idea why you think this is a point in your favor since you are the one bawwwing that we're using a double-standard and history and context don't matter. Lost the script on the way home, huh?

Simon: I think you make a mistake though. Assuming that the Republicans see Obama as intelligent. We see Obama as intelligent because he is, but a popular view of him on the far right is that he's an big ear (even Obama makes fun of his own ears) goofy idiot who only appears intelligent when in front of a teleprompter.

Republicans are unable/unwilling to see anything positive about Obama at all, that has been proven time and again in the last three years, so that's wholly irrelevant. Obama has his flaws, but being an atavistic doofus like Bush isn't one of them.


Also, here's a repeat of my challenge which you ignored:

Then prove instead that there's a good, non-racist reason to call Obama an ape and why he of all Democrats is to be singled out for this. There, challenge's on.

Him having big ears is not a good reason. Especially since a very big-eared animal is the mascot of the Republicans.

[Alphawolf55]

Oh go fuck yourself dishonest dipshit. "I'm not calling the speaker of the term racist just the allusion itself'

It's an insult to call him an ape, just not a racist one.

It's inherently racist when used against black people due to its historical connotations

Right here you're arguing that it's inherently racist to make these arguments, racism doesn't come from nowhere. It comes from individuals either consciously or unconsciously, a racist insult has to be racially motived, prove that knowledge of race automatically racially motivates insult or shut up.

I have absolutely no idea why you think this is a point in your favor since you are the one bawwwing that we're using a double-standard and history and context don't matter. Lost the script on the way home, huh?

Oh I'm the one bawwing? You're the one crying 'THAT'S RACIST, BECAUSE I SAY SO'.

Then prove instead that there's a good, non-racist reason to call Obama an ape and why he of all Democrats is to be singled out for this. There, challenge's on.

When have facts ever been considered needed for insults? Why do big ears not count Because you say so? Also who says there has to be a good reason, there's no reason to call Obama a socialist but people still do it, again insults don't have to be logical. Lastly, why the focus on fucking Obama, we're talking about the insult itself, even if every Republican is racist against Obama for being black, it doesn't mean that every time a black person is called monkey by a white person it's inherently racist regardless of context and motives.

Listen if someone actually intelligent like Simon or even Serafina wants to discuss this, I'm game but I can see you're just an idiot.

[Simon_Jester]

Metahive, is it just me or are you putting more mental energy into insulting '55 than you are to talking to him? I mean, the sheer speed with which you've run to the "Wall of ignorance! Strawman!" cries strikes me as badly, badly off; did you even try to explain the difference between what he thought you said and what you think you said before accusing him of bad faith?

And then there's how you anticipated him saying "political correctness is running amok!" when he had not done so, and behaved exactly as if he had done so... when he hadn't? When he made it very, very obvious, and came right out and said that YES, there is a logical argument for not using racially charged insults in situations like this?

I think you're looking for a fight more than you're looking to talk about the subject.

Simon: I think you make a mistake though. Assuming that the Republicans see Obama as intelligent. We see Obama as intelligent because he is, but a popular view of him on the far right is that he's an big ear (even Obama makes fun of his own ears) goofy idiot who only appears intelligent when in front of a teleprompter.

I am dubious of this making any real difference.

I don't think the far right sees Obama as intelligent; it's just that "he's an idiot" is not one of the prime charges they throw at him. They are far too busy calling him a foreign agent out to destroy America to call him an idiot very often. Insofar as he's called an idiot, it's because they (like a number of people here; this is not a unique vice of any one faction) seem unable to believe that people who disagree with them have any brains. His being perceived as an idiot is a second-order consequence of the fact that he's their enemy, not one of his main perceived vices.

When people make animal caricatures of a person, they draw those caricatures around what they perceive as his most salient features. For Obama, "stupidity" is not a most-salient feature even for the far right... except insofar as he is black, and therefore presumed to be apelike and stupid by default.

Really, '55, there is just no damned point to this. We can all see quite clearly what the most probable explanation is. It's like catching a man dressed in black climbing out of a broken window carrying a TV set. You can, as a purely intellectual exercise, come up with alternate hypotheses to explain his actions, but no sane person whose thoughts are intended to lead them to correct courses of action would believe those alternatives without a very, very good reason.

If you're going to play devil's advocate, find a more deserving devil.

[Alphawolf55]

I am dubious of this making any real difference.

I don't think the far right sees Obama as intelligent; it's just that "he's an idiot" is not one of the prime charges they throw at him. They are far too busy calling him a foreign agent out to destroy America to call him an idiot very often. Insofar as he's called an idiot, it's because they (like a number of people here; this is not a unique vice of any one faction) seem unable to believe that people who disagree with them have any brains. His being perceived as an idiot is a second-order consequence of the fact that he's their enemy, not one of his main perceived vices.

When people make animal caricatures of a person, they draw those caricatures around what they perceive as his most salient features. For Obama, "stupidity" is not a most-salient feature even for the far right... except insofar as he is black, and therefore presumed to be apelike and stupid by default.

Really, '55, there is just no damned point to this. We can all see quite clearly what the most probable explanation is. It's like catching a man dressed in black climbing out of a broken window carrying a TV set. You can, as a purely intellectual exercise, come up with alternate hypotheses to explain his actions, but no sane person whose thoughts are intended to lead them to correct courses of action would believe those alternatives without a very, very good reason.

If you're going to play devil's advocate, find a more deserving devil.

I would defintely agree that Obama is not a good target for ape insults, but insults don't need to be logical and like I said it could easily be typical conservative childish behavior about trying to fling the same insults Bush got at Obama though I don't doubt a huge amount of it like the original article is just pure racism. But other then that I can't really argue with you. I mean the subject has moved past Obama and is more onto a general subject of 'are certain insults racist no matter what' but all the same, I can't find any fault with your thoughts.

Like I said, if you want to discuss whether certain insults are racist no matter the context, I'm willing to but I think otherwise I'm done with this thread.

[Phantasee]

Man, insults don't need to be logical, but when there's a logic there, you can't ignore it.

[Koolaidkirby]

This whole argument reminds me of the Porch monkey conversation from Clerks, where he doesn't think its a racist term if not meant as one, despite the fact that it may have racial connotations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Car1aZT- ... re=related

[Superboy]

I agreed with AlphaWolf at first, and I still don't think calling a black guy an ape is always racist. There's a black guy at my college who is often mocked for being big, slow and stupid, mostly because he is. If someone called him an ape, I don't think anyone who knew him would assume it was racist. Granted, I'm in Canada where there isn't the same racist history against black people, but even given the historical use, I don't think it's automatically racist.

That said, Simon hit the nail on the head. Obama isn't usually characterized as a buffoon. He's characterized as dishonest, sneaky, and socialist. Add the fact that it was saying he came from a family of apes, and I think it was clearly racist. In other words, if Obama was white, I don't think anybody would bother with that picture because it would just seem random and weird. Even if you replaced Obama with Bush, who was constantly called an ape, the picture would still seem weird because it's saying he came from a family of apes.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Well OC is a cesspool, I used to deal with them folks when I worked for the CCC, their police used to harrass our Black and Latino workers any time we worked in OC even though they knew from policy that we were all state government employees, and had a legal right to work there, and since we had no acess to external vehicles, we couldn't possibly be in a crime scene several miles a way, when we've been working the whole afternoon along side the road, or out in the hills in the middle of no where. One time they came to harrass us when we were cleaning up a celebraty's house with a camera crew vouching that no one had left the work detail....

In short Orange is another meth infested banana republican hell hole....

[Metahive]

It's an insult to call him an ape, just not a racist one.


It's inherently racist when used against black people due to its historical connotations


Right here you're arguing that it's inherently racist to make these arguments, racism doesn't come from nowhere. It comes from individuals either consciously or unconsciously, a racist insult has to be racially motived, prove that knowledge of race automatically racially motivates insult or shut up.

Considering that context makes it clear that the "it" in both cases is the ape analogy in question, this is nothing but more dishonest conjecture on your part. Couldn't find any actual evidence so you resort to lies, nice.

Oh I'm the one bawwing? You're the one crying 'THAT'S RACIST, BECAUSE I SAY SO'.

The only one whining is you. O, poor Bush, being put upon by evil people, time for payback! Obama is totally an ape because he's got like big ears and we Republicans think he's like dumb, lol.

When have facts ever been considered needed for insults? Why do big ears not count Because you say so? Also who says there has to be a good reason, there's no reason to call Obama a socialist but people still do it, again insults don't have to be logical. Lastly, why the focus on fucking Obama, we're talking about the insult itself, even if every Republican is racist against Obama for being black, it doesn't mean that every time a black person is called monkey by a white person it's inherently racist regardless of context and motives.

But you see, the insinuation that Obama hails from a family of apes is completely logical, logically racist that is. And why focus on Obama, d'uh maybe because that's the topic of the thread? And as has been explained to you countless times by now, likening a black person to apes or monkeys is loaded, no matter how much you wish to ignore it. That has been my argument all along, no matter how much you lie or try to distort this.

I notice however that you couldn't actually come up with good reason and that you concede that particular issue one post later, good for you.

Metahive, is it just me or are you putting more mental energy into insulting '55 than you are to talking to him? I mean, the sheer speed with which you've run to the "Wall of ignorance! Strawman!" cries strikes me as badly, badly off; did you even try to explain the difference between what he thought you said and what you think you said before accusing him of bad faith?

For one he did create a strawman by accusing me of saying that everyone using this analogy is a racist when I never did (I called the analogy racist when used against black people, different thing). For two, until the last reply to you he was insisting that the ape-insult against Obama was justified and non-racist (because he's got big ears and Republicans think he's stupid you see). That's brickwall-ish enough for me.

And then there's how you anticipated him saying "political correctness is running amok!" when he had not done so, and behaved exactly as if he had done so... when he hadn't? When he made it very, very obvious, and came right out and said that YES, there is a logical argument for not using racially charged insults in situations like this?

Uh, he did say "politeness" is one of the only two reasons he could think of why people would avoid such analogies and then continued to argue for using it anyway. That qualifies as complaining about political correctness sufficiently in my opinion. But maybe you're right and I'm overthinking this, so I withdraw this accusation and apologize.