Agility as defense in FPS games

[Sarevok]

Been playing a couple of old games like Quake and Doom lately.

One thing I noticed was how important moving around is. In modern games taking cover is the only defense you have. That or shooting the enemy before he shoots. But in these old games you can actually dodge bullets and rockets !

While using cover effectively is satisfying I think being agile enough to dodge incoming fire can be incredibly fun.

I think future games should look into this by increasing player speed and reducing instant impact hitscan weapons.

What do you think SDN ?

[salm]

Isn´t the Halo series still doing that? The weapons are mainly slow moving laser gun thingamajigs you can dodge.

I second that this game mechanic can be a lot of fun and requires actual skill.

[Zixinus]

I think that as a good game mechanic, it would be better to exploit the best of both worlds: have a move that makes you dodge bullets.

Slow-mo anyone?

More importantly, I wonder whether you can program in a "aiming delay" responce. Say you're Batman and you decide to do the unexpected and jump out of cover, over to a rail above you that leads directly to the mooks. The mooks are so frightened that Batman coming to get their asses handed to them that they are slow to move up their aim (say, they're using an old machine gun or something). That means that as long as you move fast enough, you won't get shot.

Something like that perhaps? A "speed" mode?

[Sarevok]

Most of Halo's arsenal moves too fast to be dodged. More so in the sequels which seem adapted for online play.

But yes dodging a Hunter fuel rod guns attacks on legendary is a nerve wracking experience.

[Falarica]

Depends on the style of game. Something like ARMA or Battlefield 2 just doesn't work when firing from the hip and circle strafing. Whereas Painkiller was a complete blast because of the old-school Quake style of gameplay and excellent weapon design.

The newer Call of Dutys seem to have a balance but that is as much a design consideration as a consequence of the small size of the multiplayer maps.

Edit: How could I forget about Crysis' speed mode! Try playing the whole game with it permanently on and you have Quake on steroids.

[Zixinus]

Another idea, as an expansion: a "speed-parkour" mode: this means that you put away your weapon and instead start into a big dash from where you can wall-run, climb walls, low edges, etc. If you do it right and fast enough, you are more safe than if you were in cover. Meanwhile, while you cannot fire your primary weapon you might be able to use your pistol or throw grenades.

Essentially combining Prince of Persia and Max Payne (or Hardboiled).

[PainRack]

Wasn't a similar mechanic incorporated for an arcade shooter(Time Cop or something), where a refillable bar topped up by good shots allows you to slow down the game pace, giving you that critical few more seconds to hit the enemy before he hits you.

It even intergrated it into the boss fight, which became freaky scary.

[Sarevok]

I think that as a good game mechanic, it would be better to exploit the best of both worlds: have a move that makes you dodge bullets.

Slow-mo anyone?

Slo-Mo is a pretty cool way to implement bullet dodging. But it does not work in multiplayer though.

More importantly, I wonder whether you can program in a "aiming delay" responce. Say you're Batman and you decide to do the unexpected and jump out of cover, over to a rail above you that leads directly to the mooks. The mooks are so frightened that Batman coming to get their asses handed to them that they are slow to move up their aim (say, they're using an old machine gun or something). That means that as long as you move fast enough, you won't get shot

Hmmm

I am doing that in the game I am working on now. Enemies don't get a fixed percentage based accuracy. Instead their accuracy depends on their emotional state, distance to target, size of target, how fast it is moving and so on. A soldier crouched state would probably hit you with a sniper rifle given a few seconds to aim, meanwhile a panicked soldier would mostly miss you even with automatic gunfire.

But the bullets themselves move fairly fast and once fired are hard to dodge. Ingame I assigned them velocities like 200 meters/second which is a far below what a rifle bullet could achieve. Still it is too fast to be evaded by players. Heck without graphics effects for bullet trails you won't even see the bullet at all because its such a small polygon zipping across the screen so fast !

To compensate my only solution was

1) Give the player a speed mode ala Crysis nanosuit.

2) Humans still use bullets but the players main antagonists are aliens. They all use slow moving plasma weapons.

So you still got tacticool semi realistic feeling guns and yet could still dodge enemy fire. I hope I end up hitting the right balance.

[Vanas]

The original Unreal Tournament and UT2k4 both have a full-blown dodge command in them. (Can't speak for UT3). Double-tap the moveent key and you fling yourself in that direction, hopefully to safety. It's not the thing I use most often, as I play with Ballistic weapons set to 5x damage, but dodging RPGs is a laugh nonetheless. Sadly I've not been able to find the bullet-time mod I used to have that made the game such a laugh.
If you want to truly cheat, bind playersonly to a button and freeze the universe at will.

Of course, UT and co aren't exactly hardcore realism...

[Sarevok]

Another idea, as an expansion: a "speed-parkour" mode: this means that you put away your weapon and instead start into a big dash from where you can wall-run, climb walls, low edges, etc. If you do it right and fast enough, you are more safe than if you were in cover. Meanwhile, while you cannot fire your primary weapon you might be able to use your pistol or throw grenades.

Essentially combining Prince of Persia and Max Payne (or Hardboiled).

In my experience playing AvP games wall climbing and extreme movements do not make you that much harder to hit. It only surprises new human players who do not expect you, the xenomorph, lurking on the ceiling of the cave they found themselves in...

But once you start expecting the enemy on the walls or unacceptable places it is a matter of you putting the cursor on them and pressing fire.

Extreme movement is a great of getting into places for setting up dangerous ambush scenarios. But onces the bullets start flying it's only use is for a tactical retreat (also known as run like hell).

[Zixinus]

I was thinking only singleplayer. But also, I am thinking in very large deal of speed here.

[Sarevok]

The original Unreal Tournament and UT2k4 both have a full-blown dodge command in them. (Can't speak for UT3). Double-tap the moveent key and you fling yourself in that direction, hopefully to safety. It's not the thing I use most often, as I play with Ballistic weapons set to 5x damage, but dodging RPGs is a laugh nonetheless. Sadly I've not been able to find the bullet-time mod I used to have that made the game such a laugh.
If you want to truly cheat, bind playersonly to a button and freeze the universe at will.

Of course, UT and co aren't exactly hardcore realism...

Thanks for reminding me about Unreal dodge moves !

It was such a amazing ability. You could do Halo Elite like acrobatics. It would work against humans and AI alike (properly implemented AI that is) too.

[Shinova]

Specialists was an old half-life mod that's inspired by many HK action movies, matrix, and other things. You had front and back flips, diving, wallclimbing, jumping or diving off of walls, backflipping off of walls, rolling, matrix bullet-dodging if standing still while in slow motion mode, and so on. All of which can be used to make yourself a pain in the ass to try to hit. Really good old days then.

[aieeegrunt]

I think the game that did this the best was the original (1999) Unreal Tournament. The 2004 Unreal Tournament went too far in the other direction.

[Stark]

Are we discovering the difference between twitch shooters and tacticool shooters?

What about games like Gears, rely on both cover and agility? Can you name any modern game that uses 'hitscan' weapons?

[Tanasinn]

Team Fortress 2 also likes its dodging - scouts can't do without it, and demomen and soldiers are better with advanced movement than otherwise.

[Kingmaker]

Wait, haven't we known about this for, like, years? I remember the first time I ever played UT classic, the advice I was given was "Never stop moving. Ever."

I think the reason that this style of FPS dropped off in popularity (relatively. It's still quite popular, and they are still making new games in this subgenre) was that it had more or less already been perfected with games like Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, and Counter Strike. And "tactical" shooters like COD4 and Gears still reward superior player agility, it just isn't the be-all, end-all of defense (cue rage by twitch shooter players, who insist that the game requires no skill because it rewards something besides aggressiveness, twitch reflexes, and marksmanship--and of course we can flip that around for "tactical" shooter players who've wandered into a round of Quake 3).

Slow motion cannot be effectively implemented as a multiplayer mechanic

[RecklessPrudence]

You guys might want to have a look at a game called Brink. Not out yet, comes out in May, but looks good - as far as you can tell before a game comes out, anyway. Has your characters doing parkour, and dodging as a viable tactic. Here's a cinematic trailer, there's gameplay ones out there, too.

[open_sketchbook]

In cover based games, mobility is still defense, just not in the same way. It's not about dodging, it's about positioning. Any good Gears player knows that cover isn't protection, it's safe paths to a position of strength. Staying in one location behind a piece of cover in Gears is asking to get mauled horribly by the smart player who takes the risk to expose himself long enough to reach a position of strength.

[Shinova]

Some people like today's tactical shooters because of the teamplay aspect, but most like it probably cause they can camp the best locations, grab a sniper rifle or an assault rifle and just rack up giant killstreaks easily without having to do the hard work involved trying to hit a very fast-moving target.

[open_sketchbook]

I'm trying to figure out what game you are talking about, and the best I can come up with is Call of Duty deathmatch, which is long established to be garbage. Most tactical shooters these days have objectives systems or other mechanics that discourage or punish camping. For example, staying in one place in Battlefield Bad Company 2 in any situation except certain locations and situations, usually when on defense in Rush (you know, defending) means you will just be a drag on your team.

[Shinova]

Call of Duty exactly.... which the disgustingly vast majority of FPS gamers nowdays play. Sigh.

[Kingmaker]

In just about any shooter you care to name, twitch or "tactical" (yes, the scare quotes are part of the name), camping is not a viable strategy against competent opposition. You might get a kill or two, but then people are going to figure it out and deal with it.

One thing I do miss from old twitch shooters is the absence of grenades. And I think "tactical" shooters should do away with kill/death tracking entirely and move to an objective/teamwork based scoring system. It wouldn't completely eliminated the ktdr whores, but it would go a fair ways.

[Stark]

Some people like today's tactical shooters because of the teamplay aspect, but most like it probably cause they can camp the best locations, grab a sniper rifle or an assault rifle and just rack up giant killstreaks easily without having to do the hard work involved trying to hit a very fast-moving target.

I guess you can prove this? Even MW2 and Blops is heavily agility based, and there isn't a game in the world where map knowledge isn't important.

If playing a twitch shooter is 'hard work', is it surprising most people don't want to? Next we'll hear rocket-jumping is avoided by today's lazy, wimpy gamer.

And I think "tactical" shooters should do away with kill/death tracking entirely and move to an objective/teamwork based scoring system. It wouldn't completely eliminated the ktdr whores, but it would go a fair ways.

Score per minute is a much more interesting way of comparing performance, and it's hilarious that it's pretty easy to have three or four times the SPM of a sniper idiot in an objective based game.

[Panzersharkcat]

Can you name any modern game that uses 'hitscan' weapons?

Fallout 3 and New Vegas, if you're not using VATS. Quoting TV Tropes, "This is most obvious when, through mods, using a scope on a normally unscoped weapon. The enemy will drop almost a full half-second before the tracer projectile reaches them at long ranges." I can attest to that, having used a mod that adds a scope to Ol' Painless, a unique hunting rifle in Fallout 3.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HitScan

EDIT: If I remember correctly, the only projectiles than can be dodged are missiles and plasma bolts, not that avoiding a direct hit by a missile will help much.