Hungary passes new, ultra-conservative constitution

[Serafina]

Forbes-Link which i think i am not allowed to copy here

The new constitution, translated into english

The conservative highlights:
-christian preamble
-Life begins at conception:

Human dignity shall be inviolable. Everyone shall have the right to life and human dignity; the life of the foetus shall be protected from the moment of conception.

-Homosexual marriage is explicitly banned (tough there might be room for civil unions):

Hungary shall protect the institution of marriage, understood to be the conjugal union of a man and a woman based on their independent consent; Hungary shall also protect the institution of the family, which it recognizes as the basis for survival of the nation.

-there is no protection against discrimination due to sexual orientation
-massive limitations for the supreme court
-changing tax and pension laws will require a two-thirds majority

Now i think there is little question that Hungary needs a new constitution, and there is some good stuff in it, such as this:

Only scientists shall be entitled to determine the scientific value of research. The State shall not be entitled to decide on questions of scientific truth.
Hungary shall protect the freedom of scientific research and artistic expression of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, the Hungarian Academy of Arts and that of higher education institutions; in order to ensure sound management of the revenues and assets of public institutions and of subsidies provided from public funds, it shall ensure their organisational autonomy within the framework specified by an Act.

But overall it doesn't look like a good step forwards to me.

[wautd]

Didn't they also wanted to make blasphemy illegal a while ago? (eg, certain rap and rock songs would fall under that)
At least that seems to be removed.

Still... pretty bad.

[LaCroix]

Looks like one step forward and on step back at the same time...

Still, you could circumvent the "Marriage" part by calling it a "civil union" with the law stating that these unions should be treated exactly like a marriage. I know, that's not 100% the same, but it would be 99%...

I think Article XIV would cover discrimination for sexual orientation.

Hungary shall guarantee the fundamental rights to everyone without distinction of any kind,
such as race, colour, sex, disability, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or
social origin, wealth, birth or any other circumstance whatsoever.

The life protected on conception is the same - in Austria, abortion is murder/manslaughter, but it will not be prosecuted if it is done within the first 3 months. So we have basically a permanent amnesty.

At the other hand, there is recognition of ethnic minorities and a unified Europe in there.
Also protection of the environment, and no Christian state, as much as their preamble might mislead...

I think this thing doesn't differ much from any other State's constitution.

[Serafina]

I think this thing doesn't differ much from any other State's constitution.

Well, i'm hardly a constitutional scholar, so feel free to convince me that it's not as bad as it appears to me. In fact i'd be glad if it was so

[LaCroix]

I think this thing doesn't differ much from any other State's constitution.

Well, i'm hardly a constitutional scholar, so feel free to convince me that it's not as bad as it appears to me. In fact i'd be glad if it was so

edit: Neither am I.

Well, for example, German Grundgesetz, Artikel 3 is even more restrictive - it does not prohibit homosexual discrimination, as it does not list it, nor does it have a "or any reason whatsoever" clause.

[Simon_Jester]

A lot of the question may be a matter of interpretation. In the US, laws (let alone constitutional amendments) enjoining the state to "protect the institution of marriage, understood to be the conjugal union of a man and a woman based on their independent consent; Hungary shall also protect the institution of the family, which it recognizes as the basis for survival of the nation..."

Well, that would be interpreted by conservatives as "no rights for gay people to do anything, anywhere, ever." And any other clauses in the Constitution barring discrimination would be largely ignored, because everyone knows it's filthy decadent liberals who put nondiscrimination clauses into constitutions.

If, in Hungary, discrimination bans are taken seriously enough that they can materially limit the interpretation of a clause like their new constitution's Article K, then that's another story.

[LaCroix]

Well, as the conservatives themselves have put the "no discrimination for whatever reason" clause in there, the 'filthy liberal' excuse won't stick.

Of course, factions will be fighting over what is legal and what not. That's realpolitik...

Does anybody have info about what rights of the Constitutional court have been taken away, exactly? I read article 24, and everything looks pretty standard to me.

[folti78]

The new constitution, translated into english

That's an early draft, translated by an NGO (Hungarian Civil Liberties Union (HCLU)), after it turned out that the government's translation has missing paragraphs. (Honestly, this shit didn't worked with the new media law before. How the hell did they thought it'd work this time?). There were multiple proposed changes until the last minutes before the voting. Including one 10 page long that only fixed wording errors ...

The conservative highlights:
-christian preamble
-Life begins at conception:

Human dignity shall be inviolable. Everyone shall have the right to life and human dignity; the life of the foetus shall be protected from the moment of conception.

-Homosexual marriage is explicitly banned (tough there might be room for civil unions):

Hungary shall protect the institution of marriage, understood to be the conjugal union of a man and a woman based on their independent consent; Hungary shall also protect the institution of the family, which it recognizes as the basis for survival of the nation.

-there is no protection against discrimination due to sexual orientation
-massive limitations for the supreme court
-changing tax and pension laws will require a two-thirds majority

Now i think there is little question that Hungary needs a new constitution, and there is some good stuff in it, such as this:

Only scientists shall be entitled to determine the scientific value of research. The State shall not be entitled to decide on questions of scientific truth.
Hungary shall protect the freedom of scientific research and artistic expression of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, the Hungarian Academy of Arts and that of higher education institutions; in order to ensure sound management of the revenues and assets of public institutions and of subsidies provided from public funds, it shall ensure their organisational autonomy within the framework specified by an Act.

But overall it doesn't look like a good step forwards to me.

Well, IMO it's the standard FIDESZ-KDNP law. Some (or more) good bits mixed with troglodyte or revisionist bullshit, some put there because it fancied the Great Leader at the time and will cost taxpayer money dearly, like renaming the country to Hungary from Republic of Hungary. Also the way it has been ramrodded through the Parliament using the power of the almighty supermajority leaves it status shaky. 2 out of the 3 opposition parties boycotted the process, one (Jobbik) took part in it until they realized that they were shafted left and right and finally voted no.

The need for a new constitution is really a FIDESZ only, more precisely Viktor Orbán's personal need. While one of it's biggest aim is to finish the regime change after the downfall of communism it simply fails short doing it properly.* This claim is pretty much invalidated by involving Imre Pozsgay one of the old commies who engineered the regime change back in the late 1980s.

Oh and that 'National Avowal of Faith' is chock full of bullshit claims raping history.

Another funny thing, that in the preambulum they claim to not recognizing tha validity of the 1949 "Communist" Constitution. Now it's has some problem that it could result in all the laws (and the current 1989 Constitution) being invalid. Like the 1959 Civil Code or the Family law of 1952(which regulates the institution of marriage and related contracts ooopsie).

Also:

(3) Practices aimed at eugenics, the use of the human body or its parts for financial gain, or
human cloning shall be prohibited.

Great let's stiffle stem cell research.

Does anybody have info about what rights of the Constitutional court have been taken away, exactly? I read article 24, and everything looks pretty standard to me.

Currently the Constitutional Court has no power over the laws concerned with budget. This has been slapped on them as a punishment after they shoot down a controversial law which allowed the government to levy a maximum 98% percent tax on the severance pays of former government employees, since 2005. The law has been passed first in 2010 August, then in October, after neutering the CC.

Anyway, this new constitution created a good sized shitstorm and if we are lucky, King Viktor burned way too much political capital to ram it through. I wouldn't be surprised if it will be short lived.

* since the bloodless regime change of the 1989 was the result of the old commie ruling class' attempt to save their wealth and power, while covering their collective assess. This is why unlike Germany where the Stasi's files are open to the public (except the ones burned or shredded), in Hungary these informations are still secret. Except when someone important needs to character assassinated, like former PM D-209Péter Medgyessy. The FIDESZ leadership is full of old people who have dirty hands from that era. Like President Pál Schmitt who has a hole in his official CV aroung 1980-81, when all his old buddies has been pleaded guilty for embezzlement, while he only had to leave his job as the deputy manager of Hotel Astoria (itself a well bugged hotel, crawling with spooks).

[Serafina]

As a note, the german constitution ALSO gives special protection to marriage and families:

Marriage and the family shall enjoy the special protection of the state.

and this is generally (including by the supreme court) understood as meaning straight couples only.
The difference is:
-it was drafted in 1949, not in 2011
-it does not give that definition directly in the text
Therefore, it looks much less like an attempt to limit gay rights. By the way, i think it would still be possible to pass a law that defines marriage a consensual, formal partnership between two consenting adults of either gender without violating the constitution, and therefore extending that protection to homosexual couples as well. This would not be possible under the new Hungary constitution.
Also, the german supreme court actually stated that, while the constitution would prohibit non-equal rights in favor of gay marriage (gay marriage granting more rights than straight marriage), it does NOT prohibit equal rights for both in any way.

Basically, that paragraph in the Hungary constitution just looks like a giant attempt to slash gay rights, due to wording and it being so recent.

That's an early draft, translated by an NGO (Hungarian Civil Liberties Union (HCLU)), after it turned out that the government's translation has missing paragraphs. (Honestly, this shit didn't worked with the new media law before. How the hell did they thought it'd work this time?). There were multiple proposed changes until the last minutes before the voting. Including one 10 page long that only fixed wording errors ...

Is there any translation of the version that was actually passed?

[Teebs]

I think the fact that not one opposition MP voted for this constitution speaks for itself. Jobbik voted no and the MSzP and LMP refused to even vote.

I am not feeling overly proud of my dual-citizenship at the moment.

[Zixinus]

My mother talked about this and I'm somewhat frightened (although I am getting the feeling that I'm needlesly so as a, I can't do anything, b, unlikely to directly effect me in the near future and c, this is the normal run of the country) about how she talked about it, about how the old "communist" constitution wasn't a continuation of the Holy Crown.

You see, before WW2 and the Soviet takeover, Hungarian law referred itself to the Holy Crown as the symbol of government, (the Holy Crown being supposedly "given by God" and because Hungary until that point essentially had a mostly-unchanged government since the early medieval ages). The study of the Holy Crown refers to the study of law before WW2 (or more specifically, before the Soviet takeover after WW2).

Essentially, it sounded like a whole lot of bullshit. Which is bad, because who knows what they put behind the bullshit.

As for the Constituation itself, so far the infamous "preambulum" or other things mentioned (the defence of the fetus and anti-homosexuality law) is not up on the Parlament's webpage yet. So I'm a bit confused about when did this new constitution pass.

EDIT: The "latest" addition to the new constitution seems to be about the new Media ministry/section and a bit about who can pass degrees.

[folti78]

That's an early draft, translated by an NGO (Hungarian Civil Liberties Union (HCLU)), after it turned out that the government's translation has missing paragraphs. (Honestly, this shit didn't worked with the new media law before. How the hell did they thought it'd work this time?). There were multiple proposed changes until the last minutes before the voting. Including one 10 page long that only fixed wording errors ...

Is there any translation of the version that was actually passed?

Not yet, not even in Hungarian. Since it's scheduled to be signed by the president on Friday, I wouldn't be surprised if it wouldn't be surprised if it wouldn't be published before that time. Or even later ... our Great Leader and His Party has a history of fucked up (at best) or dishonest(more likely) communication. Not publishing important, but problematic stuff until it's needed.*

My mother talked about this and I'm somewhat frightened (although I am getting the feeling that I'm needlesly so as a, I can't do anything, b, unlikely to directly effect me in the near future and c, this is the normal run of the country) about how she talked about it, about how the old "communist" constitution wasn't a continuation of the Holy Crown.

You see, before WW2 and the Soviet takeover, Hungarian law referred itself to the Holy Crown as the symbol of government, (the Holy Crown being supposedly "given by God" and because Hungary until that point essentially had a mostly-unchanged government since the early medieval ages). The study of the Holy Crown refers to the study of law before WW2 (or more specifically, before the Soviet takeover after WW2).

Essentially, it sounded like a whole lot of bullshit. Which is bad, because who knows what they put behind the bullshit.

Yep, thanks to the fact that both FIDESZ and the KDNP views the post-WW1 Kingdom of Hungary as their ideal, both for government and for the society. At least their idealized version ... for upper middle class and above people and fuck the rest.

As for the Constituation itself, so far the infamous "preambulum" or other things mentioned (the defence of the fetus and anti-homosexuality law) is not up on the Parlament's webpage yet. So I'm a bit confused about when did this new constitution pass.

2011 Apr. 18. yesterday

* Like their current plan to "fix" the economy which still haven't been published in Hungarian only some vague rumors**, while rumors said it's 180 page long English version presented to foreign investors nearly a month ago.
** because after nearly a year of blustering and half-baked laws causing more harm (especially in the long run) than advantage, they practically reverted back to the previous governments budget cuts. The ones they attacked 7/24 as anti-everything back then ...

[Zixinus]

e fact that both FIDESZ and the KDNP views the post-WW1 Kingdom of Hungary as their ideal, both for government and for the society. At least their idealized version ... for upper middle class and above people and fuck the rest.

What I find a bit tragic is that from Literature class, we have quite a few novels that give a very brutally clear idea of what life was like then. The country was doing "well" (it was independent, it was getting it's shit together) but as an ideal, it falls short compared to modern world: it was, after all, still a world heartily filled with feudal ideas and notions. For one, that of hierarchy: if you read the books (I haven't done too much, I admit) you can see how characters have specific greeting and title for each layer of hiearchy ("szentséges uram", "nagykegyelmü" etc).
Of course, this is still not as bad as those idiots that want to bring back medieval values.

To those that are a bit frightened or surprised at this insanity, Hungary's history offers a bit of explanation: it was during the medieval times (before the Osman invasion) and the brief period between WW1 and WW2 when Hungary was truly "independent" (the Astro-Hungary thing being seen more as a compromise). Hungarians view these eras as the time Hungary was mighty and sored in glory.

2011 Apr. 18. yesterday

Okay, so I take it that there is a delay with publishing it? Why does it state that it is "undefined" when it will update?

[folti78]

Does anybody have info about what rights of the Constitutional court have been taken away, exactly? I read article 24, and everything looks pretty standard to me.

Currently the Constitutional Court has no power over the laws concerned with budget. This has been slapped on them as a punishment after they shoot down a controversial law which allowed the government to levy a maximum 98% percent tax on the severance pays of former government employees, since 2005. The law has been passed first in 2010 August, then in October, after neutering the CC.

Some of the limitations floated by the media:
- The above limitation will be effect, until the national debt is higher than the 50% of GDP(so from here to eternity)
- access to the CC is limited, ex NGOs, ordinary peoples and lawyers no longer can file a complaint to the court regarding laws.

[folti78]

e fact that both FIDESZ and the KDNP views the post-WW1 Kingdom of Hungary as their ideal, both for government and for the society. At least their idealized version ... for upper middle class and above people and fuck the rest.

What I find a bit tragic is that from Literature class, we have quite a few novels that give a very brutally clear idea of what life was like then. The country was doing "well" (it was independent, it was getting it's shit together) but as an ideal, it falls short compared to modern world: it was, after all, still a world heartily filled with feudal ideas and notions.

Just what I wrote, life was fine, if you were at least upper-middle class or above. For the rest, 1930s Hungary hadn't been called the "country of 3 million beggars"(out of 9 or 10millon) for nothing.

For one, that of hierarchy: if you read the books (I haven't done too much, I admit) you can see how characters have specific greeting and title for each layer of hiearchy ("szentséges uram", "nagykegyelmü" etc).

They were not greetings, they were form of address used everywhere in communication. "szentséges uram" is sounds it was a form of address only to the clergy, the other one is for secular people. It was one of the 10-12 different form of addresses used at the time if I remember right.

Of course, this is still not as bad as those idiots that want to bring back medieval values.

Maybe I'm a bit sadistic but my in my opinion people like those should try to live a few weeks under those conditions just to see how "noble" was ...

To those that are a bit frightened or surprised at this insanity, Hungary's history offers a bit of explanation: it was during the medieval times (before the Osman invasion) and the brief period between WW1 and WW2 when Hungary was truly "independent" (the Astro-Hungary thing being seen more as a compromise). Hungarians view these eras as the time Hungary was mighty and sored in glory.

At least the ones who only skimmed their history books and believe more in bullshit idealized legends than the truth.
Hell even in my high-school level knowledge of history there were clear that even in those "mighty" days when everyone supposed to be united under the Holy Crown, there were your endless feudal feuds, power grabs and other entertainments. When the Diet of Nobles frequently blocked anything that inconvenienced them, even if it was doomed the kingdom on the long term.

2011 Apr. 18. yesterday

Okay, so I take it that there is a delay with publishing it? Why does it state that it is "undefined" when it will update?

You didn't checked the URL properly. The jogtar.hu page is not the government's official page, it's been run by a company specialized in publishing the electronic versions of laws and decrees. It's not official* in any way and the new constitution hasn't been signed into law by the president**, only passed by the parliament***. The jogtar.hu is just a handy database of laws for reference only and probably more userfriendly than the average webpage made from our tax Forints ... The undefined is probably the programming error (default value of some variable), because they forgot to fill it with a change date, or they don't want/can't set it to "fuck if we know when".

* Acts and decrees(and new constitutions) signed into law are published by the Magyar Közlöny(sorry hungarian only). It's the only official source of new laws and decrees.

** It'll be signed into law on Apr 25. Easter Monday. I misremembered.

*** Technically the President has the power of sending back laws once or twice to the parliament for reconsidering or send them to the CC for their opinion about it. Of course the current President nominated by Viktor especially because he had all the spine of a slug, unlike his predecessor.

[K. A. Pital]

So does this mean abortion is banned? *suspiciously*

[folti78]

So does this mean abortion is banned? *suspiciously*

Unknown, according to the interpretation of some constitutional scholars, Article II's language doesn't change anything from the current legal standing, where abortion isn't banned by the constitution. Of course it'll comes down to the exact new laws based on the new constitution, that will be passed by the parliament.
I wouldn't be surprised, if the KDNP fundies have their way, that abortion won't be banned, only the healthcare laws will be written in a way that the providers not allowed to do it. Just like the right to give birth at home, where the right existed since 1990, but lack of regulation prevented any experts to render the service. After a shitstorm last autumn, now it's possible, but you have to spend the equivalent of multiple thousands of dollars on it.

EDIT: although the chance of a complete ban is rather slim, unless they want to alienate the people more. Hmm in which case the faster they pass it, the faster they dig themselves deeper into the hole they got themselves into, since getting into power.

[K. A. Pital]

Oh yeah, creating legislation that will make hospitals unable to render services is a devious tactic. I heard some fundies over here have championed this idea as something that will help them achieve their aims covertly without "alienating women". Heh. We'll see, we'll see.

[dragon]

Since Hungary is part of the EU will any of this violate the EU contstitution?

[Serafina]

Since Hungary is part of the EU will any of this violate the EU contstitution?

Allegedly yes, according to some german media (so no links right now, i'll dig later) there are already accusations of that being the case being levied against Hungary by german, french (etc.) and EU-officials.

[Teebs]

Since Hungary is part of the EU will any of this violate the EU contstitution?

The EU doesn't have a constitution as such, just treaties, but either way I would be very surprised. It's very firmly against the spirit of democracy, but still within the letter of the law. For fairly obvious reasons EU law is not full of rules on how countries should run themselves. Not beyond general provisions for human rights and democracy anyway.

That's not to say other EU nations and institutions won't be kicking up a fuss, just that I don't think they have any judicial recourse.

[folti78]

Since Hungary is part of the EU will any of this violate the EU contstitution?

Possibly yes, but if the EU will do the same as it did with the new media law early this year, they'll go over the text and force the government to change only the specific points they don't like, but won't force the government to drop the current text and draft a new one.

Also one of the important stuff they forced into the text in the last minute is to force all the judges and attorneys to retire when they are reach the retirement age (currently 62.5 year) instead of their current mandatory retirement age of 70 years. There is no sane reason given, only that they want to purge all the old (commie leaning) people from the posts, replacing them with younger Viktorians.

[Zixinus]

Actually the link I posted is sort of from http://www.mkogy.hu/
Click on "alkotmány" (constitution) and that's what I got.

[folti78]

Actually the link I posted is sort of from http://www.mkogy.hu/
Click on "alkotmány" (constitution) and that's what I got.

Yep that's what I found yesterday too. But the "text" of the new one could be downloaded from the top-left menu from the underscored 'Alkotmányozás' entry. (here, WARNING big ass PDF, scanned pictures of the pages thrown together. tax Forints at work... Only in hungarian.)

some other funny stuff:
- Article K. declares the Forint as the national currency. it'll be a major hassle when Hungary wants to join the Euro zone, because the changing of the constitution requires supermajority.
- the reestablished Budgetary Council (the previous one killed by slashing budget because they were too independent, even when they only had an advisory role), has veto power over the budget. Because everything else about the council will be defined in other law, this only allow our Great Leader to entrench his people in it for more than one parliamentary term, probably another 9 nine year term, like the head of the media authority and the head attorney.
- If the years budget hasn't been adopted by 31th of March the President can dissolve the Parliament and set the date for new elections.

and many more but I'm off to bed now.

[dragon]

had my wife talk to some of the professors she works with one of wich is a law professor. While the EU constitution won't effect this to much, should it go to court it theres a good chance it will end up before the EU court. And one of the parts of the EU constuition says they have to honor the court decision.