Battle of Tukayyid Force Sub: Let the bidding begin

[Night_stalker]

So I get limited to T1, and maybe some T2, just to make it fair. Besides, compared to the guy who tried to use a Replicator, my sin isn't that bad. So long as I stay within the pop limit, and use only T1 or T2 units, I should be fine.

[Ford Prefect]

It's probably helpful to note that almost all of that stats given for mobile suits on MAHQ come from fluff like the model kits which tend to be somewhat divorced from the actual animation, probably because there's little, if any, input from people who actually worked on the show.

It seems pretty clear to me that in a lot of cases the model stats represent a 'platonic ideal' of mobile suits, but in the first episode of MSG Amuro chucks a Zaku in a way that would consume way more power than the RX-78's reactor can put out. But at the same time I don't think the animation is always the best way to look at it, otherwise we end up with stuff like Amuro tanking a nuclear bomb at short range, Magella tanks with 10km/s main guns, 1000g Zetas, ludicrous multi-megaton beam rifles etc etc.

[hermitbob]

Is Comguard honest with their force deployment or are they using the "new" regiments they formed for the battle.

[DudeGuyMan]

I bid the opposing forces from the actual Battletech scenario. Since they barely won as it was, I'll be hard to underbid. But since they did win, we know that they can.
Haw.

You do know that the Clans lost, right?

Oh yeah, we're fighting Comstar, not the Clans. In that case I bid whatever the going best bid is, minus one grunt. I'ma win this Price is Right style.

[Balrog]

It's probably helpful to note that almost all of that stats given for mobile suits on MAHQ come from fluff like the model kits which tend to be somewhat divorced from the actual animation, probably because there's little, if any, input from people who actually worked on the show.

It seems pretty clear to me that in a lot of cases the model stats represent a 'platonic ideal' of mobile suits, but in the first episode of MSG Amuro chucks a Zaku in a way that would consume way more power than the RX-78's reactor can put out. But at the same time I don't think the animation is always the best way to look at it, otherwise we end up with stuff like Amuro tanking a nuclear bomb at short range, Magella tanks with 10km/s main guns, 1000g Zetas, ludicrous multi-megaton beam rifles etc etc.

If you want to take a middling ground, that's fine, but that'd still leave two questions, the first being how long can the Gundam team keep this style of fighting going. I assume like every other Gundam series their ragtag band was stuck behind enemy lines with just whatever supplies their ship could carry (which is really pushing it in regards to forces allowed), but the length and intensity of fighting can have different attritional rates on spare parts, etc. and running off to hide in an asteroid belt won't be an option. The second is dealing with the Aerospace fighters, which are Mach 3+ capable and still outnumber the mobile suits hundreds to one.

As far as how the troops get put in, assume for now they get transported to similar drop zones as the Clans, though which drop zones get which forces is up to you. If your strategy absolute revolves around them riding drop pods on fiery trails of glory right into ComGuard AA guns, then be my guest.

[Whiskey144]

Soooo.....

We can have our forces land pretty much wherever we want?

EXCELLENT.

[Sidewinder]

Regarding my proposal to use Insecticons and their clones: Since the Insecticons can use their "electronic clone beams" to create clones out of scrap metal, and the clones themselves are very fragile, do clones manufactured as attrition replacements count?

Say I bid the Decepticons, plus 10,000 clones. I sacrifice 5000 to take down 100 mechs, use the wreckages of those mechs to build 1000 more, and then send the clones to scour the planet for metal with which I can build 4000 more clones. Is that allowed in the bidding process, or will it disqualify me?

[OmegaChief]

I think, if I understand the bidding process correctly, you'd be judged based on the total units used in the entire campain for judging your force numbers.

[Sarevok]

IIRC what matters is that the total BattleValue of your force never exceeds what you declared before the battle. So if you start with 10000 decepticons and produce 50000 more it's no different than dropping ten galaxies worth of mechs as reinforcement. It is breaking the rules plain and simple. In order to stay within the rules of the bidding process the total number of insecticons must never exceed what you declared beforehand. A sort of "unit cap" if you will.

[Sidewinder]

In my example, I start with 10,000 Insecticon clones. I lose 5000 in battle; now I have 5000. I use the wreckages of destroyed mechs to build 1000 more; now I have 6000. I scurry about to gather enough scrap metal to build another 4000; now I have 10,000 again. Do the attrition replacements mean I actually have 15,000 Insecticon clones, instead of the 10,000 I bid?

[Ford Prefect]

If you want to take a middling ground, that's fine, but that'd still leave two questions, the first being how long can the Gundam team keep this style of fighting going. I assume like every other Gundam series their ragtag band was stuck behind enemy lines with just whatever supplies their ship could carry (which is really pushing it in regards to forces allowed), but the length and intensity of fighting can have different attritional rates on spare parts, etc. and running off to hide in an asteroid belt won't be an option. The second is dealing with the Aerospace fighters, which are Mach 3+ capable and still outnumber the mobile suits hundreds to one.

There's no really way to judge the endurance of the Nahel Argama beyond 'pretty long'. So I don't know. And dealing with aerospace fighters? They're Newtypes. They'll just shoot them. Battlemechs can successfully engage aerospace fighters on an individual basis and actually win. It would take literally dozens of battlemechs just to slow the ZZ Gundam down.

[Balrog]

I think, if I understand the bidding process correctly, you'd be judged based on the total units used in the entire campain for judging your force numbers.

Correct. So if you had 100 guys, lost 50 of them but then proceeded to replace all your loses back up to 100, you essentially had a force of 150 guys. The point is to prevent gaming the system by starting with a very low number to win the bid, then using self-replication technology to produce a much larger force than your starting group to stomp the defenders.

[PainRack]

Is Comguard honest with their force deployment or are they using the "new" regiments they formed for the battle.

Its a force sub bob. That means, the original forces on Tukayyid.

[Connor MacLeod]

Total ComGuard forces on the planet are listed in the OP; which units were assigned to defend which objectives can be found on the wiki Paladin posted, though since they know they'll be facing a different opponent don't assume they'll stick to the same battleplan. If it's which specific designs they use, ComGuard kept a lot of Star League-era machines and their production facilities running, so their armies are stocked with things like Mercury and Thug 'mechs, Gotha and Tomahawk ASFs, et cetera.

Ok I missed the force listings, but that still is kinda vague. I mean, what kinds of mechs specifically? What is the breakdown of armour and artillery? Yes I probably could go through and do that research myself, but technically I think that's supposed to be your job as part of the OP - I don't epxect you to look up and link to every specific entry and point it out ot me, I can do that much, but I need to know what I am looking up, especially given my limited to nonexistent knowledge of BAttletech (and whatever I may know is iether based on reading or has faded into memory, so lack of context is going to hamper me.)

It can also be far more than that. I mean what sort of tactics might we expect? Do they keep fortified/permanant bases? Starports? Factories and foundaries? How many and how well defended?

Supplies and other logistics are included as part of the bidding, so if you think you'll need a week's worth, a month's worth, then you'll have to specify and hope that it's enough.

Um, logistics is going to be a HUGe part of the war, unless you're envisioning the scenario involving one single sweeping mass of force that can beat them in a short time. But if we're planning a protracted engagement, logistics is going to be of HUGE importance.

More to the point, what sorts of facilities and transport/supply capacity am I allowed? Does it have to be all on the ground, or could it be aerial or even orbital? Use of drop ships for example, could greatly affect the logistics and mobility issue for any offensive force, even if you disallow orbital bombardment. And if orbital assets are disallowed, where am I allowed to set up bases/facilities of my own (and under what limits) and so on?

It's quite possible for a small force to potentially smash all the forces given time and effort, depending on what is allowed and what they have. Say, a Space Marine chapter that can deploy from orbit and expect orbital resupply - even without orbital bombardment, the mobility issue would be a huge asset.

As far as calcs go weapons tend towards megajoules, perhaps low gigajoules, with armor able to provide adequate protection.

Is that energy or kinetic? The two aren't the same. And that doesn't include things like mobility, weapons ranges, etc. BT weapons ranges have gone all over the board based on discussions here alone, so unless this is set out from the get go it will again mire in calcs.

[Sarevok]

In my example, I start with 10,000 Insecticon clones. I lose 5000 in battle; now I have 5000. I use the wreckages of destroyed mechs to build 1000 more; now I have 6000. I scurry about to gather enough scrap metal to build another 4000; now I have 10,000 again. Do the attrition replacements mean I actually have 15,000 Insecticon clones, instead of the 10,000 I bid?

Well you can't field 15000 of them at once. If you build too many as attrition replacements the extra 5000 has to sit on the sidelines. It's like soccer, you may have many players on the waiting bench but at any given moment you may not exceed 11 players on the ground.

[PainRack]

Ok I missed the force listings, but that still is kinda vague. I mean, what kinds of mechs specifically? What is the breakdown of armour and artillery? Yes I probably could go through and do that research myself, but technically I think that's supposed to be your job as part of the OP - I don't epxect you to look up and link to every specific entry and point it out ot me, I can do that much, but I need to know what I am looking up, especially given my limited to nonexistent knowledge of BAttletech (and whatever I may know is iether based on reading or has faded into memory, so lack of context is going to hamper me.)

It can also be far more than that. I mean what sort of tactics might we expect? Do they keep fortified/permanant bases? Starports? Factories and foundaries? How many and how well defended?

I gave a "rough" explaination of Comguard operational tactics in my follow up post.
Regarding forces, this becomes........ weird. Officially, Comstar committed approximately 72 divisions to Tukayyid, of which 50 regiments of mechs were involved. This translates to "approximately" 15552 units and more than 5 thousand battlemechs. The scenario pack does not list exact forces and I'm not aware of any pre Tukayyid source that depicts a typical Comguard division make-up.

Translated to straight talk, we know more than 5 thousand battlemechs were deployed to Tukayyid. Comstar is a mixed arms organisation, combining 6 units into a demi-company that can be anything from a battlemech, tank, infantry platoon, VTOL or aerospace fighter. The Comstar Field Manual states that Comstar does not deviate from the Inner Sphere norm of deploying aerospace units in pairs and according to the Comstar manual which postdate Tukayyid, a division has a fixed number of 39 aerospace fighters assigned to it. A division does not have a concrete layout of mechs, tanks or infantry units assigned to it, although the Comstar Field Manual does give us a typical depiction of a division composition for their alpha to omega units. Units towards the front of the Greek Alphabet has more mechs and heavier firepower, units towards the end has more infantry and vehicles. So, an unknown 10000 units,with maybe more than 2800 aerospace fighters leaving behind 7 thousand units worth of armour and infantry to support 5 thousand mechs. Oh. And the source material is... contradictory on whether artillery is considered "infantry" vs "vehicles". Back in the nineties, artillery were generally considered as infantry units in the RPG setting for purpose of unit configuration/hiring.

Their mechs, tanks were all vintage Star League units. A huge problem however exists between the current Jihad configurations/TRO revisions, the scenario pack configuration and the old TRO configuration. Also, for vehicles, some "IS" units such as Hetzers, Demolisher, LRM carriers were used.

I would also like to note that Comstar had months of preparation time before the battle, although onsite preparation is smaller due to the specifics of space travel. This was sufficient that custom refits of mechs such as the Black Knight having a hatchet was featured and fought on Tukayyid in "significant" numbers.

[Balrog]

Ok I missed the force listings, but that still is kinda vague. I mean, what kinds of mechs specifically? What is the breakdown of armour and artillery? Yes I probably could go through and do that research myself, but technically I think that's supposed to be your job as part of the OP - I don't epxect you to look up and link to every specific entry and point it out ot me, I can do that much, but I need to know what I am looking up, especially given my limited to nonexistent knowledge of BAttletech (and whatever I may know is iether based on reading or has faded into memory, so lack of context is going to hamper me.)

Like I said and Painrack added, they kept a lot of Star League-era machines in working order, which is what gave them an even footing against the Clans. Sarna.net has categories of mechs broken into a variety of listings, including a category dedicated to SLDF mechs. The ComStar manual also has a list of mechs and vehicles used by ComGuard, although since it's set after the schism with the Word of Blake it's a bit incomplete and a lot more Inner Sphere designs, so I can post that too if you need it.

It can also be far more than that. I mean what sort of tactics might we expect? Do they keep fortified/permanant bases? Starports? Factories and foundaries? How many and how well defended?

Very much a combined force army, with armored and infantry forces working in conjunction with Aerospace assets. As far as fortifications, there weren't any Castles Brain or anything on that scale as far as I remember, but they do have a very active engineer corps; for one of the cities, ComGuard actually razed it to the ground and rebuilt it into a deathtrap with secret bunkers and whatnot. They have the same amount of time to prepare for you as they did the Clans, so my advice is to expect the worst.

Um, logistics is going to be a HUGe part of the war, unless you're envisioning the scenario involving one single sweeping mass of force that can beat them in a short time. But if we're planning a protracted engagement, logistics is going to be of HUGE importance.

Which is why, consequently, the Clans lost

More to the point, what sorts of facilities and transport/supply capacity am I allowed? Does it have to be all on the ground, or could it be aerial or even orbital? Use of drop ships for example, could greatly affect the logistics and mobility issue for any offensive force, even if you disallow orbital bombardment. And if orbital assets are disallowed, where am I allowed to set up bases/facilities of my own (and under what limits) and so on?

You're going to have to bring it with you, and unless your force includes airships or some other floating platforms you're going to have to store it on the ground, just like ComGuard did. The point is to mimic the original scenario as much as possible as a way of measuring pure ground force action. While technically the ASFs are space-capable and could try and attack any orbiting supply ships, for many of the invading forces said ship would be nigh-indestructable and give them an unfair advantage. Besides which, having a space ship, unless it was incredibly weak, would dramatically increase the bid and result in you probably losing anyways.

How you go about setting up your supplies if up to you though. Your forces land in any of the same areas the Clan drop zones were, so those would naturally lead to being built up into bases of operation. This includes any prefabricated structures you include in the bid.

Is that energy or kinetic? The two aren't the same. And that doesn't include things like mobility, weapons ranges, etc. BT weapons ranges have gone all over the board based on discussions here alone, so unless this is set out from the get go it will again mire in calcs.

Both, actually, though obviously the way a laser and a bullet deals damage are different. On the low end there are the infamous gauss rifles which fire a 125kg round at Mach 2+ and laser weapons at single-digit megajoules, though supposedly the recent books have introduced heavier stuff like hypervelocity autocannons (I don't think ComGuard had any of those at Tukayyid) and how you interpret energy weapons melting off chunks of armor could result in hundreds of megajoules. There was a quote somewhere about ferro-fibrous armor having 1000x the melting point of tin or something, I'll try and find it. The speeds of various mechs and ground vehicles should be listed on their Sarna pages, though as a general rule they aren't much faster than 60km/h for most mechs/tracked while hover vehicles get up to 100 or more. ASFs are measured in terms of thrust points, with each point worth .5G of acceleration, which translates in the atmosphere (depending on their altitude) from supersonic up to hypersonic speed. As far as weapons ranges, they were always capable of multi-kilometer ranges, even back in the beginning of the franchise going by the Battletechnology mags, and the recent books reinforces that view. There were simply a number of factors that encouraged fights at ranges much shorter than what was capable.

[PainRack]

Like I said and Painrack added, they kept a lot of Star League-era machines in working order, which is what gave them an even footing against the Clans. Sarna.net has categories of mechs broken into a variety of listings, including a category dedicated to SLDF mechs. The ComStar manual also has a list of mechs and vehicles used by ComGuard, although since it's set after the schism with the Word of Blake it's a bit incomplete and a lot more Inner Sphere designs, so I can post that too if you need it.

Apart from the traditional SLDF mechs such as the Mercury, Mongoose, Champion and etc, there were also other more common IS designs such as Atlases, Warhammer, Marauder and Locusts seen.
Essentially, Comstar deployed mech models from TRO 2750 and 3250. The problem is, at WHAT technology level were mechs like the Atlases deployed.

Very much a combined force army, with armored and infantry forces working in conjunction with Aerospace assets. As far as fortifications, there weren't any Castles Brain or anything on that scale as far as I remember, but they do have a very active engineer corps; for one of the cities, ComGuard actually razed it to the ground and rebuilt it into a deathtrap with secret bunkers and whatnot. They have the same amount of time to prepare for you as they did the Clans, so my advice is to expect the worst.

While the command bunker wasn't a full blown Castle Brian, it was heavily fortified and formed the centre nerve network of the Comguards.
Similarly, a series of "field" fortifications were used against Clan Smoke Jaguar and ambush positions prepped against several other clans like the Falcons.

The Tukayyid Scenario Pack also describes traps like mech traps, trenches and etc being built although we don't know the extent of the fortifications.

Which is why, consequently, the Clans lost

You're going to have to bring it with you, and unless your force includes airships or some other floating platforms you're going to have to store it on the ground, just like ComGuard did. The point is to mimic the original scenario as much as possible as a way of measuring pure ground force action. While technically the ASFs are space-capable and could try and attack any orbiting supply ships, for many of the invading forces said ship would be nigh-indestructable and give them an unfair advantage. Besides which, having a space ship, unless it was incredibly weak, would dramatically increase the bid and result in you probably losing anyways.

You see, that's raise the question. How are you going to score such logistic units, along with orbital assets?

The traditional Clan bidding will have no impact whatsoever on this scoring process, so, we need you to actually come up with some better guidelines than this.

I would just like to remind everyone here how the traditional Clan bidding works. Both sides bid what forces they bring to a trial, then the "aggressor" has his commanders bid their forces so that the commander with the lowest bid "win". Presumably, we're at the second phase, one should note that such bidding practices at this phase is ENTIRELY tactical.

Even Clan vs Clan bidding such as Ghost Bear vs Wolf for the conquest of the FRR capital, or the bidding to join in Operation Revival has no scoring points for logistics.

You can't just say spaceships= OMG, because the traditional Clan concept of bidding has no effect whatsoever on how many dropships are used in an assault, PROVIDED they are not actual combatents in the trial itself. Ditto to orbital resupply. May I point out that if one analyzes 3rd Edition Battletech, the issues preventing orbital resupply is due to the scale of resources involved along with acquiring a suitable landing zone?

The Clans had no bidding problems with using multiple dropships to mislead Draconis counts of enemy units and Star Colonel Halmar bluffed an entire planet into surrender via the threat of orbital bombardment, this after Turtle Bay had prevented the Clans from including warships in their bid.
So.... yeah, you need to tell us how you are going to score logistics in the bid.
May I also ask you to take note of the issue of industrial replicators like the ACUs?
Also, what about other game units like Command & Conquer?

I would also suggest you specify how long the battle would actually take place. The Battle of Tukayyid essentially ended when both commanders stated that it ended based on an unknown criteria. If not, something absurd like dropping a whole force of Lictors along with replicating hormagaunts might occur.

[Connor MacLeod]

This is starting to sound like it won't work as deployed. I mean either its going to take a ton of work to "equalize" other universes to the bidding (how do we do that, exactly), or its going to be arbitrary, and I'm not sure how some universes will fare given what I'm reading from what Balrog and Painrack say.

[Balrog]

Whatever helps works the kinks out and resolves any problems with the original scenario is fine.

Apart from the traditional SLDF mechs such as the Mercury, Mongoose, Champion and etc, there were also other more common IS designs such as Atlases, Warhammer, Marauder and Locusts seen.
Essentially, Comstar deployed mech models from TRO 2750 and 3250. The problem is, at WHAT technology level were mechs like the Atlases deployed.

By OP fiat, since Comstar traditionally had practically the best of everything compared to the Inner Sphere, assume the IS mechs are packing whatever advanced technology is available to their design at the time of the battle.

You see, that's raise the question. How are you going to score such logistic units, along with orbital assets?

The actual supplies aren't counted as units bid per se, and to make things easy will purely noncombat units won't be counted either, i.e. flatbed trucks to carry everything. You also don't have to be minute in detail, like how many MREs you plan on bringing along. You will have to account for how long you expect to be able to take the objectives, so if your plan is to smash ComGuard and capture the cities in a few days, you might not need much if anything additionally, but if you expect a long slog then you need a way to store all those tons of ammunition, protect it from ComGuard raids and get it to where the fighting is taking place. Since enough people have asked, orbital ships will be allowed, however they will be limited strictly to non-combat roles only, i.e. resupply, and whatever transports are used to convey the supplies from orbit to the ground are absolutely fair game for being shot down. So long as the transports are non-combatant they will not be included in the bidding process either, but if they are some kind of assault or combat transport (ex: 40k Thunderhawk or Aliens Cheyenne) or are subsequently used to transport troops into combat, then they will be counted.

The reason for going through all this hassle about logistics is that it did prove critical in the outcome of the battle, and to try and break up habits of debating which tend to focus exclusively on things like how big your penis is how many joules your weapon puts out and instead examine aspects of combat which, arguably, matter more than who has the biggest gun.

You can't just say spaceships= OMG, because the traditional Clan concept of bidding has no effect whatsoever on how many dropships are used in an assault, PROVIDED they are not actual combatents in the trial itself. Ditto to orbital resupply. May I point out that if one analyzes 3rd Edition Battletech, the issues preventing orbital resupply is due to the scale of resources involved along with acquiring a suitable landing zone?

True, however the conditions of the scenario haven't changed relative to what the Clans already agreed to at that point, namely no ships sitting in orbit bombing everything. Thus the change made above.

May I also ask you to take note of the issue of industrial replicators like the ACUs?

They get the same treatment as the other replicating units, it's not how much you start with but the final tally of units used which matters.

Also, what about other game units like Command & Conquer?

Game mechanics are obviously out, so if there is any fluff info available then that will be acceptable.

I would also suggest you specify how long the battle would actually take place. The Battle of Tukayyid essentially ended when both commanders stated that it ended based on an unknown criteria. If not, something absurd like dropping a whole force of Lictors along with replicating hormagaunts might occur.

Historically, ComGuard had enough supplies to last them a month of fighting; that'll serve nicely as a time limit as any. If after one month (30 days) the majority of the cities are not in the invading force's control (and blowing them up doesn't count) then ComGuard wins.

This is starting to sound like it won't work as deployed. I mean either its going to take a ton of work to "equalize" other universes to the bidding (how do we do that, exactly), or its going to be arbitrary, and I'm not sure how some universes will fare given what I'm reading from what Balrog and Painrack say.

Not every universe is going to work out with this situation; certainly many of the advanced civilizations would lose out unless they purposefully built war machines absolutely shitty by their own standards, and that kinda defeats the purpose. The goal is to find the force, whichever universe it came from, that's weakest against the other bids but able to triumph where the Clans failed. A quick and imprecise way to check is "will by guys get stomped by the other bids but still win" while the more detailed to hash it out would be the same as any other debate, based on technological levels (weaponry, defenses, mobility, etc.) as well as other factors like combat doctrine. If a clear winner can't be found (and doing it Price is Right style won't work ) then I have no problem calling a tie or two.

[Whiskey144]

The entirety of X Corps, 4621st Imperial Army, and two additional Guard Regiments.

This consists of the:

Tallarn 17th, 89th, and 331st Desert Raiders regiments
Tallarn 3rd, 12th Armored regiments
2356th, 2378th Storm Trooper Companies
23rd Elysian Drop Troops
114th Cadian Mechanised

Tallarn 17th (and presumably 89th&331st) consists of 10,684 infantry, supported by:
39 Leman Russes; 150 Sentinels; 49 Chimeras
48 Basilisks; 6 Bombards; 12 Griffons; 20 Hydras
5 Salamanders; 15 Samaritans; 3 Atlas; 38 Trojans

Tallarn 12th (and presumably 3rd) Armored consists of 4,039 personnel, operating/supported by:
129 Leman Russes; 30 Leman Russ Demolishers; 9 Baneblades; 2 Shadowswords; 90 Sentinels; 106 Chimeras
48 Basilisks; 20 Hydras
79 Salamanders; 12 Samaritans; 10 Atlas; 50 Trojans

23rd Elysians consists of 2,866 infantry/personnel, supported by/operating:
182 Valkyrie Assault Carriers; 30 Vulture Gunships
42 Sentinels; 54 Powerlifters; 36 Trojans

114th Cadian Mechanised consists of 3,947 personnel operating/supported by:
362 Chimeras
30 Basilisks; 20 Griffons; 10 Hydras
29 Salamanders; 18 Sentinels
10 Samaritans; 5 Atlas; 6 Trojans

Military support will be:

20 Thunderbolt heavy fighters, 10 Lightning superiority fighters
15 Marauder bombers, 10 Marauder Destroyers
4-strong Warhound Titan scout group for further support.

This brings the total force to:
46,943 personnel/infantry (does not include Storm Troopers/Navy personnel for attached air support; I guesstimate that roughly 5-10 people per aircraft for maintenance, plus crew, excluding servitors)
2,947 armored vehicles (all types; excludes aircraft)
287 aircraft, various types
4 Warhound Scout Titans

Further, 2 Labour, 2 Engineer Corps and 50 Supply Columns of the Adeptus Munitorum will provide logistics support.

I'll append this with the note that they have supplies for approximately four months, as per the Taros Campaign. Further, I've appended the air component from my previous post; they simply don't need the sheer number of aircraft I gave them, IMO.

@Connor- at guess, how well do you think the force I've posted would do for this scenario?

EDIT: Fix'd aircraft total.

[PainRack]

They get the same treatment as the other replicating units, it's not how much you start with but the final tally of units used which matters.

Said industrial replicators also replicate supplies on site.

It sounds to me that you're trying to ask people to pay attention to logistics and etc. 30 SW Imperial assault shuttles is infinitely superior to 30 Pelicans, but its simply going to be too much hassle to "score" the relative effectiveness of logistics. So, just force players to state how much transport assets they're going to bring and use that as part of the score and then demand that players detail how they are going to secure a logistic network to sustain their armies. That means space, that means telling how they're going to have an MSR and secure it against Comstar raids(Escorts?through speed? Onsite replication? Teleportation?). Ask them to take note of how effective their "traditional" logistics are, although this is going to be dodgy for Wh40k IG, due to the vagarity of the warp.


Also, with regards to IS designs like the Atlas, I must again point out that we simply don't know what WAS the technology used here. The older data is supposed to be wildly inaccurate so as to mask the true technological capabilities of Comstar. Data from 3070 says its more advanced, but the "data" is overriden by Jihad tweaks.

I'll append this with the note that they have supplies for approximately four months, as per the Taros Campaign. Further, I've appended the air component from my previous post; they simply don't need the sheer number of aircraft I gave them, IMO.

@Connor- at guess, how well do you think the force I've posted would do for this scenario?

EDIT: Fix'd aircraft total.

Whiskey..... You do know you're facing several thousand AEROSPACE fighters, right? While their fuel capabilities may not be as comparable to Imperium fighters and their energy weapons are likely to be of much lower capacity, a ASF does has the ability to shoot down IG fighter given enough time. Btech maneveurability and speed is comparable if not superior, although their durability is probably inferior given that IG fighters can shrug off Wh40k lascannons strikes which are superior to Btech lasers.

Also, the scenario is to "control" said cities. Your army is significantly SMALLER in every aspect. Infantry, armour. A lower limit on Small laser given the Test of Vengenance vapourisation of a human being and relative comparison to laser rifles and etc doesn't give IG forces that much of a tech advantage to overwhelm superior numbers of that magntitude. Sure, the Titans are massively superior...... until one considers the scale of Comguard fortifications and traps. Not to mention the various terrain such as Port Raccice or Devil Springs.

[Connor MacLeod]

@Connor- at guess, how well do you think the force I've posted would do for this scenario?

EDIT: Fix'd aircraft total.

Aside from what Painrack mentioned, you also chose to transplant the entire Taros campaign force, which is in and of itself a massive drawback. Taros was not only ineptly lead for most of the battle, but also suffered from horrible logistics and general lack of resupply. Especially in the aircraft department, but also in general supplies (considering they were on the arse end of the Imperium.)

On top of that, you completely neglected the Space Marine complement (a company or two, not including the Avenging sons who predated their attack)

Not enough to conquer and hold territory, most definitely not enough to overwhelm anyone, and without mobility to offset their numerical inferiority they can't really hope to win, even given a month.

[Connor MacLeod]

Not every universe is going to work out with this situation; certainly many of the advanced civilizations would lose out unless they purposefully built war machines absolutely shitty by their own standards, and that kinda defeats the purpose. The goal is to find the force, whichever universe it came from, that's weakest against the other bids but able to triumph where the Clans failed. A quick and imprecise way to check is "will by guys get stomped by the other bids but still win" while the more detailed to hash it out would be the same as any other debate, based on technological levels (weaponry, defenses, mobility, etc.) as well as other factors like combat doctrine. If a clear winner can't be found (and doing it Price is Right style won't work ) then I have no problem calling a tie or two.

This still strikes me as far too open ended. Like painrack said, 30 SW shuttles could be better than 30 Pelicans, but how do you "weigh" how much of a difference that makes? Technology level alone is going to be a massive hassle in the "bidding" department, since more sophsiticate dtech bases (EG better firepower, range, etc.) will have advantage over lower tech bases. But that doesnt mean lower tech can't compete, if (say) the cost allows them to field greater numbers.

I'm also still not convinced on the tactics/operations/strategy and logistics issue, at least that it can be so easily dismissed especially since they have a not-so-minor impact on the effectiveness of a force overall, especially a small one. What if you have a small, highly mobile, highly destructive force (Say like the Eldar or Tau, or perhaps a Renegade Legion Strike Legion, which is comprised of anti-gravity tanks that mass tens or hundreds of tons, move at upwards of 300-900 kph, fire hypervelocity guns up to 200mm in calibre, and GW lasers?) - the firepower and mobility may give them a huge advantage even if they HAVE smaller numbers, yet if they cannot stay supplied they'll be less than useless (and they need a mobile logistics force.)

Tactics, operations and strategy also influence the outcome because the tactics available to some universes could be much better suited to fighting on the terrain than others. How does that affect bidding? A particular concern about this is that given what you and Painrack are saying, the approach to combat seems both highly ritualized - that may actually hamper some forces because the way they fight is not "approved" of (its not honourable, or whatever reason you want to have.)

Some other thought needs to be given to the firepower issue, especially in light of collateral damage. Just how much damage is acceptable, and what kinds of weapons are? I mean there are universes ou tthere that literally do carry pocket nuclear level weapons either with infantry (like starship troopers) or on vehicles (AT-ATs, juggernauts, SPHA-Ts, etc.) and if orbital bombardment is outlawe,d taht sort of shit probably is as well. To be fair though, even gigawatt or megawatt range ewaponry is not exactly going to be "enviroment friendly" if deployed in large numbers.

This is quite simply the problem I've run into trying to run a large complicated vs like SW vs 40k - things are very complicated and the minutae start taking on a great deal more importance, and the more you look the more complicated it gets. If a person doesnt mind complication it can be interesting, but otherwise it just makes it hard to derive an easy resolution short of applying "comic book" style tactics.

[Whiskey144]

Whiskey..... You do know you're facing several thousand AEROSPACE fighters, right? While their fuel capabilities may not be as comparable to Imperium fighters and their energy weapons are likely to be of much lower capacity, a ASF does has the ability to shoot down IG fighter given enough time. Btech maneveurability and speed is comparable if not superior, although their durability is probably inferior given that IG fighters can shrug off Wh40k lascannons strikes which are superior to Btech lasers.

Also, the scenario is to "control" said cities. Your army is significantly SMALLER in every aspect. Infantry, armour. A lower limit on Small laser given the Test of Vengenance vapourisation of a human being and relative comparison to laser rifles and etc doesn't give IG forces that much of a tech advantage to overwhelm superior numbers of that magntitude. Sure, the Titans are massively superior...... until one considers the scale of Comguard fortifications and traps. Not to mention the various terrain such as Port Raccice or Devil Springs.

Tactically-speaking, the Imperial fighters are intended to provide air cover/local superiority. The general idea is that the fighters provide aerial support for mobile regiments. This is ideal, as it allows the fighters to operate in concert of the AA-guns that most regiments are equipped with, functionally being a force-multiplier.

What I'm relying on here is superior combat experience and design ruggedness. The Navy fighters attached to the Guard regiments are durable enough by BTech-standards that they're likely to be limping home-but not shot down.

There's also the slight issue that Balrog has yet to clarify the intactness required of each city. Depending on just *how* intact each city must be, I could simply have the regiments shell/bomb a couple into ruin, so that they still resemble a city-but nothing more.

Aside from what Painrack mentioned, you also chose to transplant the entire Taros campaign force, which is in and of itself a massive drawback. Taros was not only ineptly lead for most of the battle, but also suffered from horrible logistics and general lack of resupply. Especially in the aircraft department, but also in general supplies (considering they were on the arse end of the Imperium.)

On top of that, you completely neglected the Space Marine complement (a company or two, not including the Avenging sons who predated their attack)

Not enough to conquer and hold territory, most definitely not enough to overwhelm anyone, and without mobility to offset their numerical inferiority they can't really hope to win, even given a month.

Well, my intention in using the Taros forces was to use said forces as a template. The regiments listed are most definitely not the forces from Taros; they're based on those regiments for a couple of reasons:

1) Balrog clarified that specific unit breakdown was ideal. IA3 happens to have specific unit breakdown of the forces involved (mostly, anyway), so I found it ideal to use it as a template.
2) Tallarn are desert-specialist units. Most of Tukayyid, AFAIK, is desert (or desert-esque) terrain.

Also, the general tactics are more or less to have the forces move up in concert, with Storm Troopers and the Elysian regiment conducting hit-and-run raids against enemy positions. Marauder bombers can do high-level strategic bombing, whilst Basilisks can easily provide heavy-duty bombardment fire. Failing that, heavy artillery like the Bombards can be called up.

Probably the biggest thing I'm depending on with the tactics and strategy, and the general idea of the force, is superior (generally) combat experience, and almost absurd durability of equipment. There's also the slight factor that I've given these forces FOUR months of supplies; if anything, they can simply outlast the ComStar (or would it be ComGuard?) forces, who only have a quarter of that.

Also, I considered adding some Astartes to be rather overpowering. Though the Astartes would certainly have the mobility (and logistics capability) to strike at any target within hours or at most days.

Of course, my bid was also intended to be as per the OP; the "weakest", but also the most likely to succeed even so.

EDIT: Looking back over Connor's second post, I noticed something I'd glossed over:

....What if you have a small, highly mobile, highly destructive force (Say like the Eldar or Tau.....

So now I'm considering perhaps going with a Biel-Tan Swordwind. Partially because I dislike the Tau (arrogant gits, all of 'em), and partially because the Spess Elves are pretty awesome in their own right.

Though I suppose if I face the facts, the Tau would be rather ideal. *sigh* And I really hate those arrogant blue-grey-skinned gits.