Governor Perry (TX) orders Rain Dance

[Metahive]

TO ALL TO WHOM THESE PRESENTS SHALL COME:

WHEREAS, the state of Texas is in the midst of an exceptional drought, with some parts of the state receiving no significant rainfall for almost three months, matching rainfall deficit records dating back to the 1930s; and

WHEREAS, a combination of higher than normal temperatures, low precipitation and low relative humidity has caused an extreme fire danger over most of the State, sparking more than 8,000 wildfires which have cost several lives, engulfed more than 1.8 million acres of land and destroyed almost 400 homes, causing me to issue an ongoing disaster declaration since December of last year; and

WHEREAS, these dire conditions have caused agricultural crops to fail, lake and reservoir levels to fall and cattle and livestock to struggle under intense stress, imposing a tremendous financial and emotional toll on our land and our people; and

WHEREAS, throughout our history, both as a state and as individuals, Texans have been strengthened, assured and lifted up through prayer; it seems right and fitting that the people of Texas should join together in prayer to humbly seek an end to this devastating drought and these dangerous wildfires;

NOW, THEREFORE, I, RICK PERRY, Governor of Texas, under the authority vested in me by the Constitution and Statutes of the State of Texas, do hereby proclaim the three-day period from Friday, April 22, 2011, to Sunday, April 24, 2011, as Days of Prayer for Rain in the State of Texas. I urge Texans of all faiths and traditions to offer prayers on that day for the healing of our land, the rebuilding of our communities and the restoration of our normal way of life.

IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF, I have hereunto signed my name and have officially caused the Seal of State to be affixed at my Office in the City of Austin, Texas, this the 21st day of April, 2011.

RICK PERRY
Governor of Texas

http://governor.state.tx.us/news/proclamation/16038/

"And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked." 1 Kings 18

[CaptainChewbacca]

When you use a bible verse to mock Christians, is that ironic?

[Cosmic Average]

I think the real issue is that the governor of Texas is desperate enough to ask the state to pray for rain. The entire area is under drought conditions comparable to the Dust Bowl.

COYLE, Okla. (AP) — In most years, the dark clouds over western Oklahoma in the spring would be bringing rain. This year, they're more likely to be smoke from wildfires that have burned thousands of acres in the past month as the state and its farmers struggle with a severe drought.

Oklahoma was drier in the four months following Thanksgiving than it has been in any similar period since 1921. That's saying a lot in the state known for the 1930s Dust Bowl, when drought and high winds generated severe dust storms that stripped the land of its topsoil.

Neighboring states are in similar shape as the drought stretches from the Louisiana Gulf coast to Colorado, and conditions are getting worse, according to the U.S. Drought Monitor. The area in Texas covered by an extreme drought has tripled in the past month to 40 percent, and in Oklahoma it nearly doubled in one week to 16 percent, according to the monitor's March 29 update.

Link

[Metahive]

Every time I hear someone proposing to pray for a solution of a serious problem, something that has shown itself to be quite ineffectual in the past, I think of this bible verse. Coincidentally, this verse happens within the context of a massive drought as well. Frankly a governor who thinks this is a valid way to deal with a crisis ought to be sacked due to gross incompetence.

[Serafina]

Isn't this a breach of the first amendment? Encouragement of religion of any kind by the government is forbidden, and this is quite similar to the National Day of Prayer - whoops, i forgot that Republicans don't give a damn about the constitution.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Hey, praying for rain worked for Australia.

[Metahive]

But Serafina, he wasn't mentioning any single religion by name so he totally didn't prefer one religion over another. Except of course that for reasons of equality, atheism is counted as a "religion" within such a context by the courts and there are religions that don't propose an interventionist deity that can be appealed to via prayer, so fuck Perry.

Republicans have the same approach to the constitution as fundamentalists have to the Bible, cherry-pick parts that look amiable, ignore/spin the rest.

[someone_else]

Are there other measures in place that have higher chances of solving the problem?

Also, is this caused by global warming? Or by other kinds of human stupidity?

there are religions that don't propose an interventionist deity that can be appealed to via prayer, so fuck Perry.

Unless bhuddism is hugely popular on texan population (whut? ), you're still stuck with the god of Jews, Allah (eek!!! islam in texas?), and the one of Christians.
All of them should theoretically listen to prayers, in their lore.

[Metahive]

Are there other measures in place that have higher chances of solving the problem?

You mean higher than prayer which has about 0% probability of working?

Unless bhuddism is hugely popular on texan population (whut? ), you're still stuck with the god of Jews, Allah (eek!!! islam in texas?), and the one of Christians.
All of them should theoretically listen to prayers, in their lore.

Doesn't matter, it's still promoting one type of religion over another and yes, there are actually texan atheists so it's moot either way.

[Broomstick]

Isn't this a breach of the first amendment? Encouragement of religion of any kind by the government is forbidden, and this is quite similar to the National Day of Prayer - whoops, i forgot that Republicans don't give a damn about the constitution.

No, I believe it's legal - it's not establishing a religion, it's not requiring a religion, it's not specifying a religion (it says all faiths and traditions, not just Christians), and it's not requiring participation (so atheists, agnostics, and others are free to not pray).

It's a request, not a law.

So yeah, it's close to the edge, but it's not a breach of the First.

[Broomstick]

Also, is this caused by global warming? Or by other kinds of human stupidity?

While human stupidity probably works into it somewhere, that region undergoes periodic droughts regardless based on climate/archeological/geological data going back millennia.

[Serafina]

Isn't this a breach of the first amendment? Encouragement of religion of any kind by the government is forbidden, and this is quite similar to the National Day of Prayer - whoops, i forgot that Republicans don't give a damn about the constitution.

No, I believe it's legal - it's not establishing a religion, it's not requiring a religion, it's not specifying a religion (it says all faiths and traditions, not just Christians), and it's not requiring participation (so atheists, agnostics, and others are free to not pray).

It's a request, not a law.

So yeah, it's close to the edge, but it's not a breach of the First.

It is an act of government promoting religion.
At the very least it is promoting religion over non-religion (atheism), and i think there is a fair claim that it promotes monotheistic religions and those with prayer traditions over those without.

If he'd just said in an interview "i'd like people to pray to god for rain" or somesuch, it would not be an act of government. Still bad, but the first amendment doesn't say anything about a religious leader expressing his faith.
However, he DID make this an official act of government whose sole intention is the promotion of religion. There might be no pressure behind this "request", that doesn't change the fact that the government is encouraging it.
This is precisely analogous to the National Day of Prayer, which was already almost ruled unconstitutional once.


Yes, this is not a world-shattering issue. The worst it'll do is alienate some atheists and followers of non-abrahamic religions, and make Texas government look stupid. That doesn't change the fact that it is at the very least at the edge of breaching the constitution for religious reasons.

[Serafina]

As always, let's reverse the question:

What if a governor/president/other high-ranking politician/political institution used his power to declare one (or several days) as days where the citizens should NOT pray?
As in this case, without actually establishing any other encouragements or prohibitions to follow that policy.

[Broomstick]

Hmm.... as long as it's clear it's a request and not a requirement it would still be legal on a technical level... but it would also be enormously unpopular.

I do disagree that the wording alienates non-Abrahamic religions, though - polytheists do pray, after all. Can't speak for Buddhists, but from my limited knowledge of them I can't see anything inherently off-putting. It's known the government is a monotheist himself, but this seems worded to dance around that particular issue.

[Prannon]

Also, is this caused by global warming? Or by other kinds of human stupidity?

While human stupidity probably works into it somewhere, that region undergoes periodic droughts regardless based on climate/archeological/geological data going back millennia.

I do believe that there was a strong La Nina earlier this year, which tends to make the whole south kinda dry and warm.

[AniThyng]

I can't wait for Purple to find this thread

It would be unlikely that the average buddhist would be offended by such a declaration, since the average lay buddhist can and does pray to higher powers for intervention or luck or whatever.

Is the atheist rage against this in this case really justified? Asking if there is a real way to solve the problem that the governor could possibly be trying instead (if not in conjunction with) a day of prayer is a valid question - what does the state stand to LOSE from asking people to pray, and can you justifiably say that this prayer declaration has actively impeded scientific or engineering solutions to the problem?

[hongi]

Unless bhuddism is hugely popular on texan population (whut? ), you're still stuck with the god of Jews, Allah (eek!!! islam in texas?), and the one of Christians.
All of them should theoretically listen to prayers, in their lore.

Maybe one of the Native Americans will do it as well.

Hey, praying for rain worked for Australia.

Massive floods weren't what we wanted.

[Metahive]

Is the atheist rage against this in this case really justified? Asking if there is a real way to solve the problem that the governor could possibly be trying instead (if not in conjunction with) a day of prayer is a valid question - what does the state stand to LOSE from asking people to pray, and can you justifiably say that this prayer declaration has actively impeded scientific or engineering solutions to the problem?

What does it stand to lose? How about causing further erosion of the seperation between church and state? Isn't scribbling "In god we trust" on coins and pledging allegiance to "one nation under god" already enough state-approved, religious nonsense? It's the principle that counts here. If Perry wanted to ask people to pray for a solution he should have done so privately instead of doing it in his official position as state governor.
And yes, creating an atmosphere of state-approved acceptance for fucking magic invocations which prayers are can be fully well said to impede scientific and social progress.

[Simon_Jester]

This sort of thing would not have been all that out of place coming from a governor fifty or a hundred years ago, and yet science continued to progress- in some cases, got more support from the state than it does today, though that's probably more because the scale of resources needed to do science has increased; it's harder to get a research accelerator funded for a billion dollars than it is for ten million.

The really poisonous thing isn't rain dances or other cultural practices and fetishes (in the anthropological sense). It's attitudes toward education (and here Texas damns itself quite effectively, and does a lot of harm to the rest of the nation indirectly via their Board of Education standards). It's willingness to take money from people who have a vested interest in science being ignored.

It is not rain dances.

[Metahive]

Notice I didn't say that prayers/rain dances/whatever itself are the problem but the state government officially approving of such methods as valid problem solvers is. In the post above I said that if Perry had done this request as a private person instead as the state governor I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[Gil Hamilton]

Gov. Perry asking for rain prayers doesn't surprised me. It sounds good to his base and at minimum (and maximum) does nothing. Of course, I would ask him why he thinks that God is denying the midwest rain in the first place, such that they all need to pray to fix the problem. The answer to that ought be be interesting. It's somewhat implicit in all of this that if God is causing people to suffer via drought, he's pissed about something and/or being an asshole.

Perry needs to get some Shinto priests on this shit. Figuring out why the spirits of nature are pissed off and solving it is practically their entire job.

[Metahive]

In the Bible, in the chapter I took the verse in the original post from, God causes a drought because the king had become an apostate and started worshipping foreign deities. Hmmm...what did Jesus say about people being only allowed to either follow God or the Mammon but never both? With the recent republican "favor the rich, fuck the poor" (also something Jesus strongly opposed) shenanigans I think there's a certain poetic irony to the whole affair.

[Traveller]

Did this Governor call for strict or stricter water rationing? Reforms to indust-Ag, a notorious waster of water?, propose a total ban on non-essential uses of water?(in america those are not hard to find). Anything at all that actually deals with the root cause of the problem? All I hear is, bring rain so things can get back to "normal". Translated in american that means, keep wasteing huge amounts of water(or any resource really) in a semi-arid region. Apparently, reality-based solutions are off the table in Texas. Gawd will make everything better. Will texans be praying to jesus to make more oil too once that states oil reserves are essentially depleted too?

[Broomstick]

Gov. Perry asking for rain prayers doesn't surprised me. It sounds good to his base and at minimum (and maximum) does nothing. Of course, I would ask him why he thinks that God is denying the midwest rain in the first place, such that they all need to pray to fix the problem.

>cough< Texas isn't the "Midwest" - saying so may provoke outrage in both Texans and Midwesterners.

(Midwest is roughly, in it's broadest definition, the Ohio Valley to the Rockies, but north of Oklahoma-Texas-Alabama-Louisiana-Mississippi-Florida... basically north of the Deep South. In reality, borders are somewhat fuzzy.)

Did this Governor call for strict or stricter water rationing? Reforms to indust-Ag, a notorious waster of water?, propose a total ban on non-essential uses of water?(in america those are not hard to find). Anything at all that actually deals with the root cause of the problem? All I hear is, bring rain so things can get back to "normal". Translated in american that means, keep wasteing huge amounts of water(or any resource really) in a semi-arid region. Apparently, reality-based solutions are off the table in Texas. Gawd will make everything better. Will texans be praying to jesus to make more oil too once that states oil reserves are essentially depleted too?

That's a big disingenuous - Texas is agricultural, but tending more towards things that aren't nearly as water-intensive as California's Central Valley. Texas is far from the worst offender in water-wastage.

Many of their problems are not due to either urban or agricultural water wasting but because the environment is so damn dry the wilderness areas have dried up and caught fire. Drought followed by fire is a perfectly normal cycle natural cycle for Texas, it's that it's inconvenient for humans with their artificial structures.

(Fire is also natural to the more northern areas - so much so that many of the Plains states are now conducting controlled burns for a more healthy environment. In my area they usually announced them 3-4 days in advance so folks don't freak out and, of course, note the weather and will cancel if conditions become hazardous)

[Gil Hamilton]

>cough< Texas isn't the "Midwest" - saying so may provoke outrage in both Texans and Midwesterners.

(Midwest is roughly, in it's broadest definition, the Ohio Valley to the Rockies, but north of Oklahoma-Texas-Alabama-Louisiana-Mississippi-Florida... basically north of the Deep South. In reality, borders are somewhat fuzzy.)

Texas in this case is getting alot of the same whether as what you are defining as the Midwest. Arkansas, Oklahoma, Iowa, and Colorado east of the Rockies are all getting it (in addition to New Mexico and parts of Arizona).

Besides, Texas is in the middle of the country and west of what people call the East... calling it part of the Midwest isn't exactly a stretch.