I was worth 50 sheep

[wautd]

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About the Film
Sabere, now 16, was only 7 years old when her father died in war. Her cousin inherited her, and following a long-practiced tradition in Afghanistan, he sold her when she was 10 years old to Golmohammad, a man in his 50s and a member of the Taliban. During the next six years she was both a slave and wife of Golmohammad. She became pregnant four times, miscarrying each time. The cause may have been her youth, or the abuse she suffered at the hands of her husband. While they were on a trip to Mazar-e sharif, Sabere managed to escape and after much effort, she made her way to a women's shelter.

Meanwhile, Sabere's mother needed to remarry quickly to avoid bringing shame on the family with her widowhood. According to tradition, ownership and betrothal of a widow transfers to the deceased's cousin. So Sabere's mother marries the cousin, and gives birth to a daughter named Farzane (Sabere's half-sister). The family struggles to make ends meet, so when Farzane is 10 years old, her father sells her to a man in western Afghanistan. Her price: 50 sheep and a piece of dry-farming land. As a kind of installment plan, the buyer pays Farzane's father 10 sheep per year, and will take posession of her when she is 15 and the full amount has been paid.

After six months of searching, the women's shelter tracks down Sabere's mother and her stepfather and invites them to the shelter for a meeting. When they discover the deal to sell Farzane, the shelter's managers realize they not only need to help Sabere but Farzane as well.

Sabere has applied for a divorce with the shelter's assistance, but she knows that her husband will find her and kill her — as he had his two previous wives — if she is not protected well. Golmohammad, who is over sixty, refuses to attend the domestic court proceedings because he refuses to accept the divorce, but also because he is wanted by the police on a charge of kidnapping. The court cannot force him to appear, because he lives in a part of the country controlled by the Taliban. So Sabere, with help from the shelter and police, embarks on a ruse to lure Golmohammad to Mazar-e sharif so he can be arrested.

I Was Worth 50 Sheep is the tale of these two sisters and their struggle for human dignity and freedom in a war-torn country caught between ancient traditions and a modern world.

Saw this docu last night and still feel depressed about it. The good news is, that the taliban sub-human piece of slime got arrested at the end (for criminal charges that have nothing to do with raping and beating pregnant 12-year old kids unconsious mind you. In a culture were cattle is worth more than woman, that kind of stuff is legal) but it stops there. The girl still isn't allowed to divorce "thanks to" Islamic law (so she's still not allowed to find work, still risks to be abducted etc...), and her 10 year old sister got sold to another taliban peadofile so it looks like history will repeat itself. Very grim to know which kind of future will lay ahead for this kid

Such barbaric, backwards country

[xerex]

The girl still isn't allowed to divorce "thanks to" Islamic law

another example of practice not conforming to what is in the Quran and Hadiths. Divorce in Islam is supposed to be easy. Three 'I divorce you' s one a month, the return of the dowry, and thats it.

[Broomstick]

But does that apply equally to men and women? Or does that have to be initiated by the man?

[PeZook]

It's interesting in that the Koran actually gives a lot of rights to women which were not common at the time it was written. It's actually a progressive book for its times.

Of course quoting it now when it's two millenia out of date is misguided, but sometimes even the people who think knowing the Koran is the only knolwedge worth having don't seem to respect its writings all that much.

[Simon_Jester]

Thing is, they're not interested in the Koran as a revolutionary social document (which is what it was written as); they're interested in it as The Book That Justifies Life As We Know It. They want Life As We Know It, not the ideal Islamic state.

Ultimately, this is the same basic psychology we see in Christian fundamentalists; the differences are in the details of doctrine and in the lack of competing social models that, in the West, have forced even the most far-out evangelical groups to accept certain limits on their behavior. And ultimately, even to take those limits largely for granted, even if they might grouse about them now and then.

[Akhlut]

But does that apply equally to men and women? Or does that have to be initiated by the man?

It varies depending on which school of jurisprudence one applies to in Islam, but usually if the wife takes the case to a qadi (Islamic scholar/Shariah judge) he will dispense the proceedings for a divorce.


Plus, ultimately, I'd argue this isn't so much a result of EVIL ISLAM, RAR, but 'simple' misogyny, which is really divorced from religion and is a cultural aspect that derives from "men tend to be bigger and stronger than women and can thus use force to impose their will upon women." It is then justified by using holy writ, tradition, and force. One can find this pattern in Japan (much more strongly 2 centuries ago, but still present to a lesser extent today), Italy, and some portions of the United States, among many other places. The main thing that is so disheartening is the young woman's age when it started and the prevalence. But, again, it'd be wrong to blame this solely on Islam.

[Molyneux]

Yeesh. Every now and then, I come across something that makes me disgusted to be male.
Even without the Taliban, Afghanistan really needs to get its ass kicked into the twenty-first century. I just wish there were some kind of cultural wake-up call...of course, if we helped them with the whole "food, water, infrastructure" thing, I can't help but think that it would help push this garbage towards the trash bin of history a bit quicker.

[Broomstick]

One of the problems with "food, water, infrastructure" etc. is that as fast as we make improvements the Taliban, etc. will tear them down/blow them up/destroy them because god forbid anyone benefit from the presence of "outsiders". They'd rather the people starve and freeze than have reason to be grateful to anyone but their clique.

[PeZook]

Yes, but that's the only way things actually improve for good. It's useless to just occupy a country for a decade or so, impose democracy and expect centuries of cultural mores and traditions to just go away and all Afghans to turn into nice Westerners.

Historically, the only thing that fought those was widespread education and secularism, which requires infrastructure and food and industrialization and governmental institutions, etc etc etc.

Some extraordinary individuals could manage to improve entire nations within a single generation, but you can't count on another Ataturk to come and suddenly become the ruler of Afghanistan. And Afghanistan simply doesn't have the institutions and traditions that allowed Ataturk to work in Turkey anyway. You don't just need a government, you need people used to the idea of a central government, you need the government to be able to control the countryside and impose order, and that in turn requires roads and communications and...well, you get the idea - development is massively interdependent, it's a combination of culture, technology, physical infrastructure...

And yes, of course, the Taliban and other groups feel threatened by those developments, and will fight them. Frankly, it seems Afghanistan is quite hopeless at this point. The US will withdraw within a few years, leaving a corrupt and impotent central government that will collapse inside a decade, and then we move on to civil war and back to status quo.

[fgalkin]

Yeesh. Every now and then, I come across something that makes me disgusted to be male.
Even without the Taliban, Afghanistan really needs to get its ass kicked into the twenty-first century. I just wish there were some kind of cultural wake-up call...of course, if we helped them with the whole "food, water, infrastructure" thing, I can't help but think that it would help push this garbage towards the trash bin of history a bit quicker.

Not really. Consider the losers in the US and other industrialized nations who buy books like "The Game," who view women as sex objects who need to be outsmarted or tricked, then fucked. If people here who have access to "food, water, infrastructure" as well as the whole culture of feminism still resist seeing women as fellow humans, what do you expect from people whose views are reinforced by culture, peer pressure, and centuries of tradition? What about countries like Egypt, which are progressive enough to want democracy, yet 95% of the women have their clitoris cut off?

Education and infrastructure will not change anything, but perhaps naked force might. I am reminded of General Napier's famouss quote on the practice of suttee in India. Of course, such a thing will never happen nowadays. Can you imagine the reaction if Coalition troops hung this man in the center of his village?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Molyneux]

Yeesh. Every now and then, I come across something that makes me disgusted to be male.
Even without the Taliban, Afghanistan really needs to get its ass kicked into the twenty-first century. I just wish there were some kind of cultural wake-up call...of course, if we helped them with the whole "food, water, infrastructure" thing, I can't help but think that it would help push this garbage towards the trash bin of history a bit quicker.

Not really. Consider the losers in the US and other industrialized nations who buy books like "The Game," who view women as sex objects who need to be outsmarted or tricked, then fucked. If people here who have access to "food, water, infrastructure" as well as the whole culture of feminism still resist seeing women as fellow humans, what do you expect from people whose views are reinforced by culture, peer pressure, and centuries of tradition? What about countries like Egypt, which are progressive enough to want democracy, yet 95% of the women have their clitoris cut off?

Education and infrastructure will not change anything, but perhaps naked force might. I am reminded of General Napier's famouss quote on the practice of suttee in India. Of course, such a thing will never happen nowadays. Can you imagine the reaction if Coalition troops hung this man in the center of his village?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Find me an example of a woman being stoned to death for the crime of having been raped in the United States, and I'll concede that you have a point.

[fgalkin]

What does that have to do with anything?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[PeZook]

What does that have to do with anything?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

That development and stability does improve the situation, even if misogyny still exists?

The Napier Method also won't work unless the US will stay there for a century or two, because it will be seen as a sign of the Great Satan's opression for a long, long time and covertly practiced anyway. Ending (or, actually, almost ending) suttee took more than just redcoat bayonets.

Food, water and infrastructure is a first step towards social progress. Not a critical step, but a necessary one nonetheless, because it allows the government to have influence over the countryside, thus beginning the long march towards social liberalization. But unless the government remains stable for generations, education is provided, laws governing these practices imposed and enforced consistently...nothing will happen.

[Sea Skimmer]

Its kind of pointless to even brand the people who do this as Taliban; belief in oppression by religion is very widespread in the country even among the limited pool of legitimate government supporters. If it was only the Taliban who pushed that stuff it’d be a vast improvement and make the war far closer to being winnable in conception.

[Molyneux]

What does that have to do with anything?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

That development and stability does improve the situation, even if misogyny still exists?

The Napier Method also won't work unless the US will stay there for a century or two, because it will be seen as a sign of the Great Satan's oppression for a long, long time and covertly practiced anyway. Ending (or, actually, almost ending) suttee took more than just redcoat bayonets.

Food, water and infrastructure is a first step towards social progress. Not a critical step, but a necessary one nonetheless, because it allows the government to have influence over the countryside, thus beginning the long march towards social liberalization. But unless the government remains stable for generations, education is provided, laws governing these practices imposed and enforced consistently...nothing will happen.

What PeZook said (and better than I think I could have). Yes, there is still misogyny in the United States...but if you don't realize that there's a major difference in the scale of evil between goosing a waitress and stoning a rape victim to death, you're just not paying much attention.

[fgalkin]

What does that have to do with anything?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

That development and stability does improve the situation, even if misogyny still exists?

Of course it does, but even nations with first-world standards of living can have honor killings, however rare they may be. So does the US, for that matter. Secular Turkey, the perpetual EU candidate has a honor killing almost every day. And these are only the most extreme form of gender oppression, there are plenty of other forms of discrimination against women in the Middle East. If having the world's tallest building and a per-capita income higher than that of the United States is no barrier to discrimination, what is?

The Napier Method also won't work unless the US will stay there for a century or two, because it will be seen as a sign of the Great Satan's opression for a long, long time and covertly practiced anyway. Ending (or, actually, almost ending) suttee took more than just redcoat bayonets.

Agreed. But, it would still have a positive effect in the short term, as rapes and murders are prevented due to fear of punishment, even if it would not last past the withdrawal.

Food, water and infrastructure is a first step towards social progress. Not a critical step, but a necessary one nonetheless, because it allows the government to have influence over the countryside, thus beginning the long march towards social liberalization. But unless the government remains stable for generations, education is provided, laws governing these practices imposed and enforced consistently...nothing will happen.

Exactly so, except that it appears that even a first-world standard of living is not a guarantee of gender equality. Culture is, and it takes a lot more to reform it.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[PeZook]

Yes, my entire point is that changing culture requires time, commitment, drive and development over the very long term. Each of these is necessary, and even then, misogyny is far from being eradicated even in the most socially progressive nations on the planet.

[fgalkin]

Good, we agree then. I was just pointing out that improving infrastructure is not some magical fix-all cure that will solve all Afghanistan's problems.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Bakustra]

However, it's worth noting that suttee was a relatively rare practice, generally only performed by the upper classes, mostly restricted to the Bengal region, and had a number of native Indian reformers seeking to end it alongside the British. I doubt that the imposition of ideals purely from the outside can really be beneficial in the long-term for sex and gender reform in Afghanistan.

[fgalkin]

However, it's worth noting that suttee was a relatively rare practice, generally only performed by the upper classes, mostly restricted to the Bengal region, and had a number of native Indian reformers seeking to end it alongside the British. I doubt that the imposition of ideals purely from the outside can really be beneficial in the long-term for sex and gender reform in Afghanistan.

Why not? It mostly worked in Central Asia, didn't it?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Bakustra]

So you're suggesting that the US annex Afghanistan, consider it fully and permanently part of our country, encourage the settlement Americans within Afghanistan on a permanent basis like the Soviets did in Kazakhstan and the other Central Asian republics, systematically murder any native poets, writers, philosophers, and exterminate as many elements of Afghan culture as possible, or at least that somebody should. The Soviets also sought to economically develop those regions as well, and the end result has been environmental disasters and a resource-extraction dependent populace, with Soviet systems like education faltering post-USSR from lack of budget, so I guess we ought to mimic that as well just to be safe. Of course, we don't have the pre-Soviet incorporation into the Russian Empire that the Central Asian republics had, so I guess we'll just have to pretend that Afghanistan was American from the mid-1920s on! Sounds like a brilliant plan!!

[K. A. Pital]

So you're suggesting that the US annex Afghanistan, consider it fully and permanently part of our country, encourage the settlement Americans within Afghanistan on a permanent basis like the Soviets did in Kazakhstan and the other Central Asian republics

Because it was impossible to man factories with locals who hardly had enough education for that during the early years of the USSR. During the latter years, economic and family ties and new workplaces mixed the population across the Union.

systematically murder any native poets, writers, philosophers, and exterminate as many elements of Afghan culture as possible, or at least that somebody should.

If elements of Afghan culture are from the Dark Age, I am not shedding tears over them. Just like I shed no tears over "culture" that causes deputees of the Kyrgyz parliament to butcher sheep to exorcise evil spirits from the hall.

The Soviets also sought to economically develop those regions as well, and the end result has been environmental disasters and a resource-extraction dependent populace

Compared to Iran and Afghanistan, those pillars of environmentalism (not), entirely independent of resource extraction (not). Sorry, but economic development, even if it sometimes has adverse ecological consequences, is better than no development.

...with Soviet systems like education faltering post-USSR from lack of budget, so I guess we ought to mimic that as well just to be safe.

I think "lack of budget" is not relevant to e.g. Turkmenia, where Niyazov banned education outright. And Afghani fundamentalists with their Dark Age "culture" would do the exact same thing, regardless if they had money or not. Soviet education system at least gave them a period when women weren't treated like cattle and education was secular and free of religious bullshit. So yeah, maybe you should give secular education in Afghanistan a shot. When people learn that maybe Allah isn't hot shit, they might question their local Taliban commander appealing to the authority of the above.

[Bakustra]

So you're suggesting imperialism and religious indoctrination as the preferred method, then? My point is that using the Soviet Union as inspiration means adopting a number of actions that are not likely to help the US or Afghanistan all that much. Again, do you really think that the US permanently annexing Afghanistan will convince the populace or the world that the US is generally benevolent? Do you think that trying to exterminate Islam in Afghanistan is going to be well-received? Finally, do you really think that trying to exterminate cultural identity is a good thing? You're devolving into a parody of yourself.

[Purple]

On the other hand, what other solution actually has a chance of working? I mean, the current one clearly is not producing any results that will last for 10 minutes after western troops retreat. So like, can you suggest a valid alternative?

[Sarevok]

So you're suggesting imperialism and religious indoctrination as the preferred method, then? My point is that using the Soviet Union as inspiration means adopting a number of actions that are not likely to help the US or Afghanistan all that much. Again, do you really think that the US permanently annexing Afghanistan will convince the populace or the world that the US is generally benevolent? Do you think that trying to exterminate Islam in Afghanistan is going to be well-received? Finally, do you really think that trying to exterminate cultural identity is a good thing? You're devolving into a parody of yourself.

Well if Stas is wrong what would you suggest then ? Afghanistan will not improve on it's own barring unforeseen events.