Battle of Tukayyid Force Sub: Let the bidding begin

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, my intention in using the Taros forces was to use said forces as a template. The regiments listed are most definitely not the forces from Taros; they're based on those regiments for a couple of reasons:

1) Balrog clarified that specific unit breakdown was ideal. IA3 happens to have specific unit breakdown of the forces involved (mostly, anyway), so I found it ideal to use it as a template.
2) Tallarn are desert-specialist units. Most of Tukayyid, AFAIK, is desert (or desert-esque) terrain.

Also, the general tactics are more or less to have the forces move up in concert, with Storm Troopers and the Elysian regiment conducting hit-and-run raids against enemy positions. Marauder bombers can do high-level strategic bombing, whilst Basilisks can easily provide heavy-duty bombardment fire. Failing that, heavy artillery like the Bombards can be called up.

The Taros campaign was fucked up on so many levels, essentially because they had to give the tau a chance. They even say this flat out in the opening of the book: for the Imperium the Taros crusade is a minor battle, whilst it is a major undertaking for the Tau. For the tau to lose it would be a crushing blow, whilst the Imperium losing it would only have minimal impact. Essentially true, but it sets the scale for what "canonically" happened. I mean they mention wanting to bring in a full Titan Legion, and yet they could "only" manage to bring in 4 Warhounds. Which, I might add, were COMPLETELY unsupported (Which goes against the vast majority of cases of Titans being deployed in fluff and novels - Titans are supposed to be GOD Machines remember? They're supposed to be guarded. Like in Dark Apostle.)

Air support was another one. The Imperium actually did quite well in air battles, and yet resupply problems dictated that no new pilots or craft replacements - or indeed, reinforcements, arrived. Sustained battle and attrition defeated the Naval air forces despite basically kicking the Tau asses there (and that despite the tau having numerical superiority.)

Lack of shuttles: They had far fewer shuttles than needed as I recall, which hampered their abilities to land and deploy troops. What's more, they completely failed to utilize the mobility advantage the shuttles gave them, even as few as they might. (again whilst knowing that mobility was one of their chief drawbacks.)

Under-utilization of the Space Marines. Apart from being involved in the opening and closing stages of the battle, the Space Marines were completely absent from the ground war. Instead, they were used purely in space to chase after the tau fleet. Why? It was known from the get-go that mobility would be a problem for the Guard forces (That's why they had the Elysians and Cadians there) - and that sort of warfare IS what the Space Marines excel at. And yet... they werne't used. (indeed, the guard forces seemed to go out of their way to alienate the Astartes.)

Piecemeal application of assets. They deployed the Tallarn largely by themselves first, but held back virtually all the other assets (again Elysiasn, cAdians, Titans, etc.) and made a slow, laborious progress over some hundreds of km thta they covered at 20 km a day. Basically a tactic designed to prolong engagement and give the tau more time to strike at them and whittle them down (which is precisely what they did.)

Only partially mechanized force: A big reason why much of the advance was so slow in fact. This is often an unavoidable consequence for the Guard, given the difficulties of logistics and supply (and a schizophrenic tech/industrial base), but it is a disadvantage nonetheless. Perhaps having the troops ride on other vehicles could have mitigated this (or use of the shuttleS) but for whatever reason they didn't do that.

Complete absence of orbital support - this is somewhat mitigated by the fact Tau tactics were designed to deny them a good target for orbital bombardment, but again, orbital support of any kind (information/recon, orbital deployment of supplies or resources, or tropos, etc.) was COMPLETELY ignored.

I could go on and on, but it basically amounts to The Imperium totally fucking up Taros at every turn, which played to the TAu's strengths and tactics and a wholly intact industrial/defense base (lucky that) in that particular engagement (again this was all but flat out stated in the book itself in many ways.)

Many of those same problems essentially apply here. I mean without shuttles, there's no way you can successfully deploy enough assets to take twelve targets around a planet. Guard ground forces at Taros simply didn't move that quickly. And I remind you that the Taros assault force was designed to take and hold a *single* city, wheras here you have ot take a dozen. The lack of troop carrying vehicles is going to be a huge drawback here alone.

Probably the biggest thing I'm depending on with the tactics and strategy, and the general idea of the force, is superior (generally) combat experience, and almost absurd durability of equipment. There's also the slight factor that I've given these forces FOUR months of supplies; if anything, they can simply outlast the ComStar (or would it be ComGuard?) forces, who only have a quarter of that.

I'm kinda doubtful that you could take over a whole twelve cities in four months. 20 km a day as I recall, in 30 days is 600 km. in four motnhs you might manage to cross a continent at that rate, although having to fight a war, resupply, and establish/break camps is going to hamper that.

In the meantime those months rae also giving the BT forces time to amass at a specific locale to crush you. Something tells me they would have a MASSIVE mobility advantage agianst the IG forces in this scenario, even ignoring the vehicles and infantry and going with Mechs alone. Someone more qualified on mech abilities (speed and such) would have to comment there however.

Also, I considered adding some Astartes to be rather overpowering. Though the Astartes would certainly have the mobility (and logistics capability) to strike at any target within hours or at most days.

Of course, my bid was also intended to be as per the OP; the "weakest", but also the most likely to succeed even so.

Astartes are going to be about the ONLY reason the Taros intervention group would have a chance, but even then insufficient logistics is going to kill it fast. Unless you drastically alter their tactics.

So now I'm considering perhaps going with a Biel-Tan Swordwind. Partially because I dislike the Tau (arrogant gits, all of 'em), and partially because the Spess Elves are pretty awesome in their own right.

Though I suppose if I face the facts, the Tau would be rather ideal. *sigh* And I really hate those arrogant blue-grey-skinned gits.

There's nothing wrong with the Tau by themselves. The problem is the fans (or rather fanboys) of the tau who exaggerate their abilities or have to skew things to tau advantage to get them to win. Or authors that have to do that, for that matter. The tau themselves are perfectly fine. I used to think like that too, but then I also came to realize how adversarial a situation it creates (HUR HUR TAU SUCK LOOK AT KILL TEAM OR COURAGE AND HONOR - two novels meant to counter stuff like Taros or the Hoare novels.)


Anyhow Imperial aerospace fighters (the ones that aren't built for air or space combat, or just space combat like Furies are, or the modified ground variants that are space capable) typically have a top airspeed of around mach 1.5 or 2 IIRC Imperial armour correctly (something like 2200-2400 kph I think) but there is alot of evidence of the "IA" speeds being overriden in other cases (tanks going faster than listed speeds, Thunderhawks going hypersonic/near hypersonic in atmosphere, etc.) so it could be greater (possibly for more limited periods or under certain circumstances - we dont know much about the altitudes at which speeds are used.) I dont know how that matches up to BT fighters.

Weapons ranges *(for autocannon) aren't much better than modern fighter guns - probably a few km or so tops at most. They can use some exotic explosive ammo though (plasma munitions for example.) Lasers may have greater range (RL lasers do) but typically only have a few dozen shots per pack and aren't used at much greater range than the cannon
(although that may be a durability vs penetration/damage issue rather than targeting or effective range.) Missiles are a more mixed bag - they don't always carry them, but if they do I think they might be as good as a sidewinder or so (5-10 km I think) Space based fighters carry missiles that cna go up to 75 km I believe.

I should note that fighters (at least the fury type starfighters) mass as much as a small titan, and can potentially carry as much firepower. so if any force gives them "star" figthers they could be either a huge asset or a huge problem. Of course given the few sources I have on them (like rogue trader) their atmospheric weapons ranges aren't much better than the purely atmospheirc forces.

[PainRack]

Tactics, operations and strategy also influence the outcome because the tactics available to some universes could be much better suited to fighting on the terrain than others. How does that affect bidding? A particular concern about this is that given what you and Painrack are saying, the approach to combat seems both highly ritualized - that may actually hamper some forces because the way they fight is not "approved" of (its not honourable, or whatever reason you want to have.)

Balrog comments about Comstar suiting it tactics to meet the foe suggest that you aren't restricted to the same honour code as the Clans. What you are restricted to is that it has to be a "ground" fight as opposed to a coordinated space invasion, Balrog appears to concur that you should drop in the same LZ the Clans chose, although you're welcome to use your side technology and means to do so and that the comparison here appears to be to see which poster can come up with another SF force that's capable of beating Comstar without being TOO overbalanced, via using the bidding system.

Its a tad complex..... and frankly, this "might" be better played out as a sort of wargame/STGOD instead.

Some other thought needs to be given to the firepower issue, especially in light of collateral damage. Just how much damage is acceptable, and what kinds of weapons are? I mean there are universes ou tthere that literally do carry pocket nuclear level weapons either with infantry (like starship troopers) or on vehicles (AT-ATs, juggernauts, SPHA-Ts, etc.) and if orbital bombardment is outlawe,d taht sort of shit probably is as well. To be fair though, even gigawatt or megawatt range ewaponry is not exactly going to be "enviroment friendly" if deployed in large numbers.

Again, his intent seems to be to compare this to OTHER players bids. So, if you build a force that's throwing around pocket nuclear weapons, what happens if your opponent builds a force that's using HALO tech? You would be outbid.

Tactically-speaking, the Imperial fighters are intended to provide air cover/local superiority. The general idea is that the fighters provide aerial support for mobile regiments. This is ideal, as it allows the fighters to operate in concert of the AA-guns that most regiments are equipped with, functionally being a force-multiplier.

What I'm relying on here is superior combat experience and design ruggedness. The Navy fighters attached to the Guard regiments are durable enough by BTech-standards that they're likely to be limping home-but not shot down.

And you're still facing several thousand aerospace fighters on top of any VTOLs or conventional assets.
As for AA, may I remind you that even with automated tracking for the hydras, IS ASF forces are used to working in a relatively more denser AA environment.

There's also the slight issue that Balrog has yet to clarify the intactness required of each city. Depending on just *how* intact each city must be, I could simply have the regiments shell/bomb a couple into ruin, so that they still resemble a city-but nothing more.

P.S Shelling the cities doesn't equate to you HOLDING them. The objective of the battle is to secure said cities/stations.
That means actually taking out said forces. If you wish to engage in an artillery duel....... go ahead. You're probably outnumbered heavily in terms of artillery, much less direct fire elements or ASFs.

2) Tallarn are desert-specialist units. Most of Tukayyid, AFAIK, is desert (or desert-esque) terrain.

Tukayyid is an agricultural world. It is also not a monoplanet by any means whatsoever. I have highlighted the various terrain the battles were fought in. Guess what? None of it was a desert.

Indeed, artic and desert elements were the only terrain not represented in the battle.

Probably the biggest thing I'm depending on with the tactics and strategy, and the general idea of the force, is superior (generally) combat experience, and almost absurd durability of equipment. There's also the slight factor that I've given these forces FOUR months of supplies; if anything, they can simply outlast the ComStar (or would it be ComGuard?) forces, who only have a quarter of that.

Define durability of equipment. Here's a hint, even if we go with slow speed autocannons, something that was a fan representation from game ranges, Btech forces has sufficient firepower and numbers to take out Chimaeras and probably the Russ. The Leman Russ isn't as bad off in this universe as in others, it isn't automatically slower than the heavy Comstar tanks but durability is going to be hard to define without going into firepower comparisons. Nevertheless, tanks which can withstand being kicked or jumped on by 100 ton mechs isn't going to be that bad off compared to the Leman Russ.

Hell, the ONLY reason why the Leman Russ isn't slower is because Comguards are using slower heavy tanks like the Burke. I'm assuming the base speed is 60kph as opposed to the 30kph given by IA. If it IS 30kph, then, your speed match the Burke, the slowest of Comstar vehicles and the issue devolves to firepower.

Your real heavies like the Baneblades or the Warhound are simply too limited in numbers, too slow to actually be of much use over all 12 cities.

The goal is to actually secure each city. Clan Jade Falcon was considered to have lost even though they actually captured one of their city(well, a deathtrap but still a conquest) as they lost it in their withdrawal. Clan Ghost Bear campaign was ended and left them in control of one city, even though Comstar could concentrate enough forces to actually push them out if the campaign continued on.
(As a sidenote, FASA deliberately acknowledged the different ending times for the Jade Falcon and Ghost Bear campaign. How much of this evolved from the muddle of the scenario pack is not known to me but essentially, later sourcebooks acknowledged that Comstar found it difficult to archive the battle due to the differing timing and the later Schism. Wolfnet deliberately asserts that its "variant" of the battle is the most accurate. Most follow Stackpole and thus assert the Bear campaign ended after the Falcons, but Wolfnet "accurate" variant has the Falcon ending after the Bear)

I like to point out that the Clans deployed MORE armoured units than you do. You get more infantry numbers, but the Clans deployed MORE armoured units than you did. The epitome of fighting small, where clanners have no qualms in sending 15 mechs to garrison an entire planet or sending 15 mechs against 2 armoured regiments or even an entire battlemech battalion supported by tanks and infantry regiment, deployed MORE armoured units than you did to Tukayyid.
Fuck, while we don't know the exact counts for Diamond Shark and other Invading clans, they probably deployed more fighters than you did.

Hell, they deployed approxiomately half your total army in terms of numbers alone, but that army comprised of significantly more armoured units and heavy elements than yours did. You could argue that the Warhound and Baneblade counts for 50 battlemechs in terms of weight, but that still probably leaves them with a numerical advantage... seriously.

[Whiskey144]

@Connor-

Well, the main problem I have with the Tau is that they are just so arrogant. Some of the character quotes in the official GW material (the 1st Tau BFG fleetlist PDF being foremost in my mind) convey the idea that the Tau opinion is that they can fight the Imperium on equal footing and even win.

So it's not really any problem I have with Tau hardware, or tactics, or fans/fanboys/Tau-wanking-writers. My problem is that there's a fair amount of stuff about the Tau where they're portrayed as uber-arrogant smarmy gits.

Of course, it only gets worse with the fanboys and any Tau-wanking. But that's more to do with general fanboyism than general portrayal.

@PainRack-

The "durability" I'm harping on is the ease of fixing them when they get shot to pieces. It's not necessarily "the Leman Russ is nigh invulnerable to all enemy firepower", as a case of "yeah, it'll get shot up a bit. Too bad a blacksmith with the right know-how can fix it".

And, while said piecemeal quantity of fighters are still facing substantially more than they should by all rights be capable of defeating, there's the slight issue that while ComStar fighters are used to operating in AA-heavy environments, 40K fighters are simply more durable. The correlation, is, of course, that 40K AA weapons will be more powerful than what ComStar is used it, and as such said AA guns will do a lot of damage.

You can still hold a city you've shelled; I simply put that up as a (currently viable) strategic option. As Balrog has not yet clarified the degree of intactness required, an immense, long-range artillery bombardment (accompanied by strategic bombing) could easily inflict massive casualties on the defenders.

WRT Tukayyid's environment, I was under the impression that it was a predominantly desert or desert-like world. In that case, it's my mistake about that.

I'd also like to point out that my goal isn't so much "win via capture of all cities", as "draw stalemate via starving out opposition". Which would work quite nicely. After all, I've given the force I specified a good four months of supplies, which means they can last for four times as long as the local ComGuard forces.

So really, all I need to do is capture one, maybe two cities. A few others can be shelled into oblivion as necessary, and I can then simply sit tight for the time it will take for ComGuard supplies to run out. At which point they must either brave a (likely) blockade in orbit, or retreat.

And in response to the fact that the Clans deployed more armor than I have specified, it's somewhat irrelevant. The Clans aren't the party being fought here; it's ComGuard. And compared to ComGuard, there's an almost absurdly high ratio of armored vehicles to personnel.

Also the slight issue that a Warhound or Baneblade is likely worth 100 or more battlemechs in terms of capability.

[madd0ct0r]

The twelve Armies of Comguard are composed of 6,265 Battlemechs, 2,159 combat vehicles (tanks, artillery, etc.), 120,512 infantry (mostly mechanized, some leg/jump, with their attendant vehicles) and 2,808 Aerospace fighters.

I'll clarify my bid:

40k Orks:

Assuming that the Orks will rapidly adopt the tech level of Comguard, whether that's higher or lower. 12 Warparty's to match the 12 armies.

Air and space Assets:
One Hulk, from which deployments can be made via Landa and Tellyporta
3 Drop Roks (mega variety). Each carrying one warparty each
40 Landas/ Megakoptas
1000 Ork Fighta-Bommas
approx 1000 DethKoptas, operating in mobs.

Superheavy Assets:
3 dropRoks (as before) Once dropped they form instant strongholds.
1 Great Gargant
5 Mekboy Gargants (smaller, but very shooty. Ideal Mech killers)
2 Mek Krawlers (giant land transports, also amphibious)
200 Stompas, operating in mobs. (Expected to increase after each battle, as BattleMechs are looted. estimate 4000 used by end)
16 Battle-fortressess (basically super-sized wagons. Weak against mechs, but useful for depolyment.)

Mobs:

4000 Wagons (Battle wagons, truks, boom wagons, skull hammas ect)
100,000 Boyz (includes specialists eg mechs, burnas, lootas, kommandos, flash gitz ect, If mechanized vehicle included above. Also assume further orks will be 'born' before end of campaign. This will not result in a net gain of orks.)

Expectations:

Large losses despite victory after each conflict. Assume 70% of vehicles will have be rebuilt or replaced at least once by end of campaign. Like all Ork Waaghs, Logisitics are largely self contained and are based on looted items and salvaged scrap.
After first few cities have been taken, fully expect large Mek Workshops to have set up, busily equipping boyz as they filter back and forth from the front.

Deploying orks might instantly lose me the 'intactness' factor of the cities, but meh. It'd curbstomp the Taros force, but I don't think that one is big enough for the Comstar job.

[Norade]

I'm going to try a force a bit more serious than a single replicator this time and go with a lesser used universe to build my forces from. The universe of choice will be that of 'A Boy and His Tank' which should fit in well enough against battle tech. They are well armed with the standard weapon being a railgun which fires osmium needles at a quarter the speed of light*, they also have five different frequencies of laser spanning from IR to X-Ray, missiles, torpedoes, rocket/torpedo combos, and nuclear/non-nuclear artillery. In addition they are swift moving and can burrow under ground, have AI, and come standard with a pretty damned good sensor package. They do have some survivability issues and tend to be rather low on per battle endurance though.

*Assuming the same weight as a heavy 50. cal BMG round (52 grams) the rail gun hits with a force of roughly 36 kilotons.

With all this in mind I'm going to send the following:

-12 Combat Control Computers
-960 Railgun Armed Mark XIX Aggressor Tanks (Missiles, Manipulators, and 6 Drones as secondary weapons)
-240 Laser** Armed Mark XIX Aggressor Tanks (Missiles, Manipulators, and 6 Drones as secondary weapons)
-500 Non-nuclear Armed Artillery Units
-480 Supply Vehicles
-60,000 squidskin equipped infantry w/ transports
**Assume that the lasers picked are optimized for work on Tukayyid and the specific environments each battle takes place in .

Organization will be pretty basic with the forces being evenly divided into twelve groups. The strategy will be the same as used in the book with the tanks burrowing and leapfrogging each other until contact is made. Battles should be fought with the BTech forces on the back-foot allowing the burrowing hover-tanks to hit and burrow before too much can be sent back their way.

[Balrog]

Its a tad complex..... and frankly, this "might" be better played out as a sort of wargame/STGOD instead.

True, I've thought about going down that route, or as an alternative let people just post the weakest force from their favorite universe which could do the job, but this has been pretty interesting so far.

It sounds to me that you're trying to ask people to pay attention to logistics and etc. 30 SW Imperial assault shuttles is infinitely superior to 30 Pelicans, but its simply going to be too much hassle to "score" the relative effectiveness of logistics. So, just force players to state how much transport assets they're going to bring and use that as part of the score and then demand that players detail how they are going to secure a logistic network to sustain their armies. That means space, that means telling how they're going to have an MSR and secure it against Comstar raids(Escorts?through speed? Onsite replication? Teleportation?). Ask them to take note of how effective their "traditional" logistics are, although this is going to be dodgy for Wh40k IG, due to the vagarity of the warp.

That is essentially what I've been asking for, that strategic thinking be put into this debate. As far as comparing transport units, it would be the same as comparing other units (offensive/defensive, speed, special technology) though with the addition of other factors such as cargo capacity, and how they affect the force as a whole compared to the other bids.

Also, with regards to IS designs like the Atlas, I must again point out that we simply don't know what WAS the technology used here. The older data is supposed to be wildly inaccurate so as to mask the true technological capabilities of Comstar. Data from 3070 says its more advanced, but the "data" is overriden by Jihad tweaks.

Yeah it is a bit of a mess. For simplicity's sake, just assume they are more advanced; you could go with the best variant available to the design, or I'll dig up my books and try constructing a few "definitive" advanced ComStar versions of IS mechs. If all else fails we can fall back on ComGuard being purely Star League designs to reflect their technological level. The point is to best reflect the fact that Comstar was the most advanced of all the IS states and had war machines on par with the Clan designs, part of the stated reason why they won at Tukayyid.

This still strikes me as far too open ended. Like painrack said, 30 SW shuttles could be better than 30 Pelicans, but how do you "weigh" how much of a difference that makes? Technology level alone is going to be a massive hassle in the "bidding" department, since more sophsiticate dtech bases (EG better firepower, range, etc.) will have advantage over lower tech bases. But that doesnt mean lower tech can't compete, if (say) the cost allows them to field greater numbers.

Technology level tends to get reflected pretty well in the force's military units; a highly advanced group packing terawatt laser cannons vs. a not-so-advance group with simply chemically-propelled guns. The lower tech group can outperform the higher one through simple numbers, true, but then that's missing the point of the bidding process. The lower tech group is trying to be weaker than the higher tech group while still being able to defeat ComGuard; to continue with the above example, the UNSC bid would want to lose in a fight with the SW bid while still able to capture the cities from ComGuard. The SW force could improve its chances of winning the bid by, for example, lower the number of troops and vehicles it plans to deploy, so that they would be the weaker force, but then they face the danger of being too small to win the scenario.

I'm also still not convinced on the tactics/operations/strategy and logistics issue, at least that it can be so easily dismissed especially since they have a not-so-minor impact on the effectiveness of a force overall, especially a small one. What if you have a small, highly mobile, highly destructive force (Say like the Eldar or Tau, or perhaps a Renegade Legion Strike Legion, which is comprised of anti-gravity tanks that mass tens or hundreds of tons, move at upwards of 300-900 kph, fire hypervelocity guns up to 200mm in calibre, and GW lasers?) - the firepower and mobility may give them a huge advantage even if they HAVE smaller numbers, yet if they cannot stay supplied they'll be less than useless (and they need a mobile logistics force.)

I'm not trying to dismiss them, I'm trying to have debaters actually consider them for once, hence the hammering out of the concerns of logistics. Otherwise people would just plop down a small, fast, hard-hitting force like the Tau and just assume they hover tank rush to victory without considering what happens when they run out of missiles.

Tactics, operations and strategy also influence the outcome because the tactics available to some universes could be much better suited to fighting on the terrain than others. How does that affect bidding? A particular concern about this is that given what you and Painrack are saying, the approach to combat seems both highly ritualized - that may actually hamper some forces because the way they fight is not "approved" of (its not honourable, or whatever reason you want to have.)

Painrack was correct, you aren't bound by the same rules of war as the Clans, and how your force fights is totally up to you. How that compares to the other bids will be a matter of debate.

Some other thought needs to be given to the firepower issue, especially in light of collateral damage. Just how much damage is acceptable, and what kinds of weapons are? I mean there are universes ou tthere that literally do carry pocket nuclear level weapons either with infantry (like starship troopers) or on vehicles (AT-ATs, juggernauts, SPHA-Ts, etc.) and if orbital bombardment is outlawe,d taht sort of shit probably is as well. To be fair though, even gigawatt or megawatt range ewaponry is not exactly going to be "enviroment friendly" if deployed in large numbers.

Capturing the cities is the goal; collateral damage can't be avoided during heavy urban fighting, obviously, but cheating by purposefully leveling the city and then sending in an occupation force won't cut it. As for firepower, strategic weapons are out as per OP, which includes large nuclear devices. Besides, if you have a whole lot of units that throw around tactical nukes or their equivalent as part of their normal weaponry, you're likely going to lose the bid to a force that doesn't.

[Connor MacLeod]

Then it sounds like the best "bid" will have a small, aggressive and highly mobile offensive force to do the actual destroying. It doesn't need to have a firepower parity or advantage (but it can't be too much weaker either), but it probably should have some range/durability and mobility advantage. That force takes on the opposition one army (or one part of the army) at a time through prolonged conflict. Such a force is probably going to be entirely armour, mechanized infantry, and possibly whatever organic air support they have (copters, gunships, ornithopters, AG craft, etc.)

You'll also need a second force dedicated to "taking and holding" the ground conquered by the first force. This one will probably also hold and protect all the supplies and logistics to support both itself and the first group. And just in case the enemy decides not to leave the city, they'll have to help with clearing it out. Probably not as mobile given its need to be larger and to handle the logistics, but it also doesn't have to be as heavily equipped. Probably ends up getting dropped nearby from orbiting transports and advances some distance overland or something. (or just drops directly near or on the city under cover of the first force, assuming it can suppress defenses to allow that.)

And while I'm sure orbital warships are disallowed, I'm virtually certain that orbital transport will be needed (how else did they get to this place? Magic?) Which means that transports and such will be part of the bid, and probably where the supplies will be housed. You need transports big enough to hold all the fuel/ammo/etc. unless you can somehow scavenge off elsewhere (EG you run on nuclear reactors and are lucky enough to scavenege it off the enemy, if they run on such powerplants. Or you're lucky enough to use enemy munitions, which I kinda doubt.) Shuttles and drop ships and such will also count towards the bid, as they define how much and how quickly one can deploy forces.

If they take a city intact, can they use its manufacturing capability to support itself?

As a purely hypothetical example, you might bid:

1 Space Marine Chapter plus all the trimmings except orbital bombardment. Basically that's the offensive force. It has anti-armour and anti-personnel capability, mobility, the ability to strike hard and fast at the target. The lack of orbital bombardment can hinder them a bit, but not decisively so (They have gone in without bombardment before, even though "bombardment" in 40K can range from kiloton-megaton range strikes to sub-kiloton or less bombardment.) Optimize Razorbacks and Predators for energy weapons (plasma, multi-melta, and lascannon armaments).

1 IG occupation force. Hypothetically half a million to a million troops plus support elements. I was envisioning close to ~100,000 troops or so occupying per city, although that could be adjusted depending on requirements. Armour support would be mechanized units in chimeras, and Leman Russ tanks (Annihilator variant, as lascannons are their best anti-armour weapon. Possibly plasma cannon or multi-melta side sponsons for added close in punch. PErhaps the Russ variant with that nasty "sub atomic charge" it fires as a backup.) The melta flamethrower variant tanks (again mobility and nasty close up firepower.) Heavy weapons crews have emphasis on mortars, rocket launchers, lascannon,. Specialist weapons are plasma and meltaguns and grenade launchers. Basically all stuff that can do antipersonnel (to some measure) as well as anti armour (Save the lascannon of course.) Some component may be storm troopers and/or drop troops so that Valkyries and Vultures are involved. Artillery of course (Basilisk and Manticores.) but probably only in a minority - again unless we catch them in the open or we have precision targets they probaby won't be as much use.

600-1200 aircraft. Mostly lightnings and Thunderbolts, as I only expect the need to do air to air superioirity. TAking ground and bombing the shit out of stuff (EG marauders) is kinda pointless unless we catch them in the open ground. I don't *think* they quite need equal numbers to match BT fighters, but I don't want to bank on a huge disparity either (fighters aren't much more firepower heavy than a 40K tank, unless as I noted we are talking starfighters or they are carrying anti-titan ordnance, which I doubt.) 4:1 odds (500 or so fighters) is the lowest I'd be willing to rist, and I'd prefer 2:1 to be sure.

Fuel, ammo, etc is all being carried onboard the transports, and deployed via drop ship (same with troops.) Logistics is one reason BTW I am favoring a energy-heavy armament. Batteries and powerpacks can be recharged, and I expect that we can at least count on being able to find or use enemy power generation sources (even if it requires adaptation)

I'd deliberately leave out Titans, superheavies (except perhaps Leviathans for command and control) because a.) they take up lots more space, b.) they're overkill. An IG or Marine force does't need massive firepower to hurt the BT side, and it just pointlessly ups the bid in a way that can be better suited for greater amounts of less powerful troops and armour. There's also mobility issues.

As I said I am not presenting a serious bid, its just an example, but I'm seeing if I have the rough kinda idea you're going for (even if I still feel it's far more arbitrary than it ought to be.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Further: how much more does the enemy know about possible bids and their capabilities? Nothing? well informed? Total knowledge?

And how is their command and control set up? I assume the cities and armies are all in relatively easy contact with each other. How is communication handled? Are there orbital elements (satellite relays, orbital surveillance, etc.) or do they use planetary relays of some kind to allow "over the horizon" contact? Is there one city in overall command of the planet's defenses, or do they act independently of each other? How much and what kinds of data can be transmitted (can they send visual imagery from one army/city to another, or just audio?) Can one city visually observe events happening in another?

All that matters on the intelligence level, as the bidding force has to worry about how much the enemy may learn with every conflict. It's unlikely they can kepe them totally ignorant, but it may be worth having forces dedicated to striking at lines of communication and such.

[PainRack]

The "durability" I'm harping on is the ease of fixing them when they get shot to pieces. It's not necessarily "the Leman Russ is nigh invulnerable to all enemy firepower", as a case of "yeah, it'll get shot up a bit. Too bad a blacksmith with the right know-how can fix it".

Ok. I get that. So, are you going to seriously suggest that in the midst of being so severely outnumbered, you're going to get that chance? Just a reminder. German divisions in Russia refitting in the frontline is not an ideal situation. The Comguards in particular designed their tactics on Tukayyid against the Clans to provide a prolonged engagement so as to very SPECIFICALLY prevent the Clans from being able to easily repair and resupply their units.
Their success could be seen in the sense that Clan units, which via Omnimechs could easily swap out damanged weapons/pods and enjoy an armour fix advantage could not do so.
Without doing the actual reading on repairs and logistics again, IIRC, Clan mechs could repair armour in the space of hours. Swap out damanged components in hours. Replacing entire damaged structural bits would take longer.

And, while said piecemeal quantity of fighters are still facing substantially more than they should by all rights be capable of defeating, there's the slight issue that while ComStar fighters are used to operating in AA-heavy environments, 40K fighters are simply more durable. The correlation, is, of course, that 40K AA weapons will be more powerful than what ComStar is used it, and as such said AA guns will do a lot of damage.

Ok. I can see how you're justified your concerns. And if used as a mobile force to deny Comstar aerial supremacy.. yeah, although IIRC, aren't Valkyries usually assigned to a ground base?

You can still hold a city you've shelled; I simply put that up as a (currently viable) strategic option. As Balrog has not yet clarified the degree of intactness required, an immense, long-range artillery bombardment (accompanied by strategic bombing) could easily inflict massive casualties on the defenders.

For god sake, ok, let's go through the problems.
Maybe I wasn't clear in my post detailing Comstar tactics, but said comstar fortifications? They weren't meant for static warfare. The Comguards did dig in but this was meant as a tactic to essentially prolong the battle. Deep Battle Comstar style so as to speak.
Secondly, you're outnumbered in terms of guns. You won't win a long range artillery bombardment, and the IS has enough fighters that it can deliberately kamikaze every single one of your ASF and deny you aerial parity, much less supremacy needed for a bombing campaign.
It won't do that? Geez. Clan Nova cat invasion was crippled AFTER an ASF was damaged and when going down, decided to crash into one of its dropship.

I'd also like to point out that my goal isn't so much "win via capture of all cities", as "draw stalemate via starving out opposition". Which would work quite nicely. After all, I've given the force I specified a good four months of supplies, which means they can last for four times as long as the local ComGuard forces.

your objective is to claim as many cities as possible. If you wish to engage in siege warfare, the the very fact that the enemy is more mobile, more numerous and has more armoured elements than you go against your tactics/strategy.

And in response to the fact that the Clans deployed more armor than I have specified, it's somewhat irrelevant. The Clans aren't the party being fought here; it's ComGuard. And compared to ComGuard, there's an almost absurdly high ratio of armored vehicles to personnel.

WTF? I deliberately pointed out how vastly inferior your force is against any Comstar army in terms of armoured units. Infantry don't give you that overwhelming large a advantage either.

Also the slight issue that a Warhound or Baneblade is likely worth 100 or more battlemechs in terms of capability.

Great. So, let's consider the logistics, shall we? How long will a Warhound work? Furthermore, said Warhound and Baneblade... they're more likely to be able to function well in the Plains, where they're not subject to the intricate Comstar Engineering projects which entrapped Clan mechs. So, this means that if you're going to focus on the superheavies to protect the rest of your force, that means a slow mobile fortress. Enemy opposition and terrain means this is going to be restricted out in the plains, where Comstar hit and run strikes can whittle you down. Ditto to artillery and ASF strikes. You're going to be exposed out in the plains against superior Comguards numbers and resources, and your slower mobility is going to allow Comstar to actually dig in and provide more and more intricate engineering works to shut down the superheavies. Use the Warhound to break out and they're vulnerable again to Comstar traps and ambushes. And just means you're not going to secure your objective of securing 12 cities at all.

[PainRack]

Further: how much more does the enemy know about possible bids and their capabilities? Nothing? well informed? Total knowledge?

This gets a bit..... difficult to answer. Essentially, a bid gives you information on the troops involved. How many troops, their relative experience level, the use of a warrior codex to show their individual histories and success in battle. You are told what equipment they're using... but the technical capabilities? That get a bit dodgy. Armoured Elementals being able to surprise Clan Nova Cat Delta Galaxy in a trial suggest that capabilities aren't always straightforward revealed, however, the open nature of Clan society along with innovations such as the Chatterweb means that Clan commanders are generally aware of each side abilities.

For the battle of Tukayyid, the tactical units information was complemented by 2 years of observation of Clan society and battles/operations.

And how is their command and control set up? I assume the cities and armies are all in relatively easy contact with each other. How is communication handled? Are there orbital elements (satellite relays, orbital surveillance, etc.) or do they use planetary relays of some kind to allow "over the horizon" contact? Is there one city in overall command of the planet's defenses, or do they act independently of each other? How much and what kinds of data can be transmitted (can they send visual imagery from one army/city to another, or just audio?) Can one city visually observe events happening in another?

Comstar deployed 12 armies comprising of 6 divisions each to Tukayyid and command of such units are supposed to be run at division level. However, the Comguards militia command set up for this battle was relatively unique. The nature of pre Tukayyid Comguards deployment, the "green" nature of the Comguards had Focht centralising operation command through him, although we aren't told of how S1 and S4 are organised(presumably through the traditional armies, division, demi company set up).
For a command HQ, the Tamos Command bunker was set up, a Star League Command bunker. It used holographic technology and such detailed C4ISR technology that Focht was able to directly receive feeds from battlemechs, automatically swapping views and etc that he could identify that the Clans were protecting a mech and identified it as a Kahn, directing the local commander to take it down.
Comstar was similarly able to tap into Clans communications, although we aren't told what actual tactical use was made of this. Clan communications was supposed to be so unique, their own battle language that Inner Sphere analysts could not make tail of it anyway.

Regarding LOC and etc, Comstar was able to shift reinforcements from one theatre to another, along with logistic support. We aren't really given that much information regarding maps or the such, unless someone knows otherwise.

Nevertheless, some information regarding communication and etc suggest that Comstar did have a satellite network they could access and presumably landlines as well. We don't know much else other than the sheer volume of information that was going on. Focht was able to simulatenously view, command and influence multiple theatres and the novel showed him at one point managing 2-3 different battles.

AND....... yes, the tamos bunker was not known to the Clans. Smoke Jaguar did come close to discovering it, its defences were a couple of platoons of infantry and Focht personal battlemech. Static defences include being able to complete shut off access to its tunnels and etc, allowing the inhabitants to continue their job in a siege with their months of supply and power.

And while I'm sure orbital warships are disallowed, I'm virtually certain that orbital transport will be needed (how else did they get to this place? Magic?) Which means that transports and such will be part of the bid, and probably where the supplies will be housed. You need transports big enough to hold all the fuel/ammo/etc. unless you can somehow scavenge off elsewhere (EG you run on nuclear reactors and are lucky enough to scavenege it off the enemy, if they run on such powerplants. Or you're lucky enough to use enemy munitions, which I kinda doubt.) Shuttles and drop ships and such will also count towards the bid, as they define how much and how quickly one can deploy forces.

You see..... that brings us to an interesting question. There is no reason why players should have been handicapped by the Clans lack of aerial supremacy, which prevented them from bringing in dropships to shuttle their forces around. Comstar did do it, inserting entire battalions behind Clan lines such as when they attempted to interdict Clan Jade Falcon withdrawal.

Similarly, unlike Battletech, other forces like the LAAT from SW, Valkyrie and assault shuttles from WH40k offer unprecedented airmobile armies. Btech limitations in terms of suitable terrain and space for a LZ, shuttle capacity won't apply and this will means newer tactics.
It was why I suggested that the players be restricted to landing their force in the Clans original LZ as airmobility would mean entirely different campaign terrain. For example, why go through Devil Bath if you could simply teleport a company of Terminators into Port Raccice?

If they take a city intact, can they use its manufacturing capability to support itself?

There are none. Tukayyid as of 3052 has no heavy industry whatsoever.
Even if there was, Comstar successfully evacuated the whole several million population anyway, so, there isn't a labour force.

Fuel, ammo, etc is all being carried onboard the transports, and deployed via drop ship (same with troops.) Logistics is one reason BTW I am favoring a energy-heavy armament. Batteries and powerpacks can be recharged, and I expect that we can at least count on being able to find or use enemy power generation sources (even if it requires adaptation)

Try none. While this is 3050 as opposed to 3025, traditional power sources of agriculture is a horse wagon. Well, technically, its a mechanised tractor plowing the field while you're saddling the horse to transport the produce to market...

Ok.... We DO know that Tukayyid agricultural segment was massive and this would require some form of mechanisation, particularly, the large siloes and warehouses Comstar co-opted for their logistic needs. However, Tukayyid is in the large sense of things a backwater world with no value other than agriculture. And BTECH agriculture as it is. Imagine a 1990s farming economy, but without access to the cheap fuel supplies or cheap industrial equipment available to the local farmers , which replaces what is too expensive/unavailable with labour or animal power. Sort of post peak oil.

Portable chargers, batteries are available to Comstar forces but a gasoline charger or solar isn't that fantastic when compared to the huge number of lasguns and etc that needs charging. I will point out however that your occupation force is severely overkill, as the Comguards would have problems projecting 100,000 infantry to occupying a city, so, a reduction in numbers would probably solve these kind of logistic problems. Securing logistic lines may be a problem but it shouldn't be too difficult to dig in and then develop each city as its own base.

[PainRack]

I'm going to try a force a bit more serious than a single replicator this time and go with a lesser used universe to build my forces from. The universe of choice will be that of 'A Boy and His Tank' which should fit in well enough against battle tech. They are well armed with the standard weapon being a railgun which fires osmium needles at a quarter the speed of light*, they also have five different frequencies of laser spanning from IR to X-Ray, missiles, torpedoes, rocket/torpedo combos, and nuclear/non-nuclear artillery. In addition they are swift moving and can burrow under ground, have AI, and come standard with a pretty damned good sensor package. They do have some survivability issues and tend to be rather low on per battle endurance though.

*Assuming the same weight as a heavy 50. cal BMG round (52 grams) the rail gun hits with a force of roughly 36 kilotons.
.

lol. Without any actual look, why is it that this universe appears to be so powerful.............

[Norade]

I'm going to try a force a bit more serious than a single replicator this time and go with a lesser used universe to build my forces from. The universe of choice will be that of 'A Boy and His Tank' which should fit in well enough against battle tech. They are well armed with the standard weapon being a railgun which fires osmium needles at a quarter the speed of light*, they also have five different frequencies of laser spanning from IR to X-Ray, missiles, torpedoes, rocket/torpedo combos, and nuclear/non-nuclear artillery. In addition they are swift moving and can burrow under ground, have AI, and come standard with a pretty damned good sensor package. They do have some survivability issues and tend to be rather low on per battle endurance though.

*Assuming the same weight as a heavy 50. cal BMG round (52 grams) the rail gun hits with a force of roughly 36 kilotons.
.

lol. Without any actual look, why is it that this universe appears to be so powerful.............

Yeah, they're a bit overpowered in the sheer firepower sense, but the weapons do deplete their ammo rapidly to the point where a typical battle between a unit of tanks lasts only several seconds before both sides are dead and ammo has been seriously depleted. Armor wise they are defeated by landmines with a chemical explosive and the main in universe reason for being armored at all is to survive the shock and thermal effects created by your own main weapon. The other advantage is thanks to a mind-machine interface their soldiers can fight at what is in universe known as 'combat speed' basically, because all the info is sent directly to their brain time seems to slow down by a rather large amount.

Now while all of this seems pretty damned op even compared to some of the super robots and he like back on page one, I think the low numbers and limited resupply could pose them some problems as might that traps set by the enemy. You also have the fact that their railguns will cause excessive collateral damage in the city meaning they will need to force the enemy to open ground to fight them. So while I don't at all expect it to be a winning bid, I do think that if the enemy plays smart it won't be so one sided as it seems.

[Ahriman238]

I confess to know little about Battletech besides what I've read here and on there wiki. Still, these are powerful forces invading, and very powerful, well-reasoned armies everyone here is raising to oppose them. How can I do more, with less?

I bid a single Time Lord, two humans, and a robotic dog. It may take a while, and I don't pretend to know how, but they'll stop the invasion force in it's tracks, and maybe get them to swear to defend the planet hwile they're at it.

Failing that, with every army to choose from, I'll bid six Green Lanterns. Preferably one of these would be Sodam Yat, he-of-the-planet-Mari-Su. A man with all of Superman's powers, all the combined powers of the GLC, and an inferiority complex that makes him a chronic overacheiver. He will do mighty deeds, then convince himself it was nothing.

If you're looking for an actual army rather then "single man walks out to meet the giant mech-army- OMG! ROFLSTOMP! I may need to think on it some. Probably Kyle Katarn (SW: Dark Forces) Sheperd and his wrecking crew (Mass Effect) the A-team (probably the movie version, since they actually shoot and kill people) and MacGuyver. Katarn is experienced in covert ops, and even if you disregard the 'one-man-army' effect of the games, he is very sucsessful, cunning and ruthlessness augmented with Force powers and a sweet personal shield. He will likely assasinate or Mind Trick commanders, and generally delay, distract or divert large numbers of the enemy forces. Sheperd and co. will be my go-to team for impossible objectives or covering breaches in the line, Mac and the A-team will need some familiarizing with advanced tech, but will then do something wildly original. Always bet on the individual, especially when you cherry-picked him.

Of course, individuals need some help,so I'll need someone to hold the line while my front-runners do their thing, and exploit any openings they leave so I will bid... 50 regiments of Imperial Guard. Just enough to make a Crusade of it. I realize that's not enough to realistically hold the planet, but it should do for the major cities and give me several companies of air cav. Ideally Cadians, Steel Legion or DeathGuard for the armor and appropriate artillery support. Will include the Valhallan 597th, both for their record and to get a bit of Cain's luck plus hmm... 4,000 Astartes, I don't really care which chapter as long as they're reliable and won't run off to Hunt the Fallen or fight an honor duel or something. The Guard can hold the line, the Marine channel plays all-counterattack, all the the time.

Will include some form of air support as soon as I figure who'd be good for the job.

Since the thin red line will only go so far against a mech Army, I will also bid the Titan Legions Tempestus and Ignatius, three dozen Mk. XXXII Bolos, Mike's ACS unit (Gust Front) and the Shinogi's force of 144,000 Super-Sophonts (Orion's Arm) with substantial brain upgrades. If concentrated, I expect that'd do for any force of mechs in Battletech, dispersed, infantry support may tip the balance. All in all, I feel they have a decent chance of pulling it off, with the covert ops/dirty tricks team, the standing army and the signifigant armor support, plus having the resources to both defend important locations AND keep up the pressure on the bad guys.

However, as insurance I will bid for a single Armored Command Unit (Supreme Commander.) For those of you unfamiliar, the ACU is a mech that contains much advanced beaming/assembling/resource gathering equipment, and many DNA samples. It is part of a real-time strategy game where the premise is that everything is actually happening in real time. Thanks to cloning and other advanced technology, city-sized amphibious battleships are really being constructed and crewed in under two minutes. Light tanks and aircraft take only a few seconds. Heavy Tanks and mechs seemingly on about Battletechs tech level may take as long as thirty seconds to construct and crew in the workshops the ACU will raise.

True, the ACU is probably going to raise the 'value' of army a lot, compared to other bidders, and, at first, the ACU itself will be vulnerable to attack, which is why I will assign Tempestus and eight Bolos to guard it for the first few days. But This elevates me from, 'I feel they have a good chance' to 'they will beat the enemy like an unwanted stepchild.' Given just one hour without interruption or attack I will create a planet-scale Stalingrad, a meatgrinder into which any force dropped will not return, and will not make signifigant progress. With one day to play with, the whole setup will have multiple redundancies, and enough firepower to shame the US and Russia at their Cold War best (nukes are a tier 3 tech.) Tukayyid may not be a pleasant place to live once I'm finished strip-mining it for resources, but it will be held.

[Kingmaker]

You want to take the planet, not defend it. And game mechanics are not valid metric of capability, nor is character wank. And your bid is already in excess of either force deployed during the actual battle.

As far as capturing the cities intact, do that mean they need to be more or less standing? Or can we blow the shit out of them so long as we then occupy and hold the rubble?

[PainRack]

Yeah, they're a bit overpowered in the sheer firepower sense, but the weapons do deplete their ammo rapidly to the point where a typical battle between a unit of tanks lasts only several seconds before both sides are dead and ammo has been seriously depleted. Armor wise they are defeated by landmines with a chemical explosive and the main in universe reason for being armored at all is to survive the shock and thermal effects created by your own main weapon. The other advantage is thanks to a mind-machine interface their soldiers can fight at what is in universe known as 'combat speed' basically, because all the info is sent directly to their brain time seems to slow down by a rather large amount.

Now while all of this seems pretty damned op even compared to some of the super robots and he like back on page one, I think the low numbers and limited resupply could pose them some problems as might that traps set by the enemy. You also have the fact that their railguns will cause excessive collateral damage in the city meaning they will need to force the enemy to open ground to fight them. So while I don't at all expect it to be a winning bid, I do think that if the enemy plays smart it won't be so one sided as it seems.

Battletech ammunition stores last 2 minutes of sustained firing.
None of the Clans actually did obey collateral damage to the city and I don't see such a restriction placed by Balrog. The objective is to secure the city, it doesn't say it has to be a standing one.
What restrictions are in place are against WMD or tactical nukes.

[Xon]

Ahriman238, A Supreme Commander, only the ACU & SCU are crewable. Everything else is a computer controlled commaned via remote control by the ACU/SCU.

It's how the "Infinite war" in SupCom has had so few deaths, as it's only the ACU pilots at risk. It's only in the end-game where the Aeon start raising colonies if they don't convert that the death toll starts rising.

[Connor MacLeod]

This gets a bit..... difficult to answer. Essentially, a bid gives you information on the troops involved. How many troops, their relative experience level, the use of a warrior codex to show their individual histories and success in battle. You are told what equipment they're using... but the technical capabilities? That get a bit dodgy. Armoured Elementals being able to surprise Clan Nova Cat Delta Galaxy in a trial suggest that capabilities aren't always straightforward revealed, however, the open nature of Clan society along with innovations such as the Chatterweb means that Clan commanders are generally aware of each side abilities.

For the battle of Tukayyid, the tactical units information was complemented by 2 years of observation of Clan society and battles/operations.

So basically there will be a public sort of "declaration" of the forces amassed, but it won't neccesarily be all that technical. For the most part that might benefit whatever force is doing the bidding, since in large part the capabilities won't be unknown until actually deployed.

This can be somewhat hampered depending on how the bid is declared. Is it just (for example) a textual listing of forces (numbers, equipment, etc.) or is there visual? I'd imagine Comstar could guess some of it based on inferences of what is shown/described (EG if they see an IG trooper and read a listing of his equipment, they might figure out he uses laser weapons and unpowered armor. We might fudge this somehwat by using fully enclosed carapace-armoured troops that might superficially resemble power armor, and employ proper names and acronyms to obfuscate equipment listings - Eg "Mars short pattern Mark V long arm" or some such designation to hide that it's a massless energy weapon.)

Such subterfuge wouldn't matter much in a large scale/mass invasion, but every little edge will help lower the forces required for the bid.

To be fair though, it occurs to me I am assuming the bidding force (namely me) is assuming I have perfect knowledge of Comstar equipment and capabilities because, out of universe, I do. That may or may not hold true (I may only know as much as the Clans do, for example.) Does that make a difference?

Comstar deployed 12 armies comprising of 6 divisions each to Tukayyid and command of such units are supposed to be run at division level. However, the Comguards militia command set up for this battle was relatively unique. The nature of pre Tukayyid Comguards deployment, the "green" nature of the Comguards had Focht centralising operation command through him, although we aren't told of how S1 and S4 are organised(presumably through the traditional armies, division, demi company set up).
For a command HQ, the Tamos Command bunker was set up, a Star League Command bunker. It used holographic technology and such detailed C4ISR technology that Focht was able to directly receive feeds from battlemechs, automatically swapping views and etc that he could identify that the Clans were protecting a mech and identified it as a Kahn, directing the local commander to take it down.

It sounds like they are strongly directed by a centralized source. The question then becomes, how do they react if the top level command staff is taken out? I'm not saying that any bidding force can easily do this automatically, or that it would even be possible, but it sounds like it might be worth considerting.

Comstar was similarly able to tap into Clans communications, although we aren't told what actual tactical use was made of this. Clan communications was supposed to be so unique, their own battle language that Inner Sphere analysts could not make tail of it anyway.

While it's not wise to generalize, I'm going to venture that most factors argue against Comstar being able to do that to whatever forces are bid, unless we know they have broadly similar equipment (EG if they use laser or radio that is actual laser or radio, and assuming BT has both, then it might be possible. I won't bet on them hacking subspace or 40K astropaths on the same level, although there might be workarounds for that.)

Regarding LOC and etc, Comstar was able to shift reinforcements from one theatre to another, along with logistic support. We aren't really given that much information regarding maps or the such, unless someone knows otherwise.

Do they have trains, ships, or large transport aircraft of any sort? I'd assume at the very least they might have trains.
Do we have any idea how quickly they could shift forces of any size (say thousands or tens of thousands of infantryman, maybe dozens or hundreds of ground vehicles, etc.)

Nevertheless, some information regarding communication and etc suggest that Comstar did have a satellite network they could access and presumably landlines as well. We don't know much else other than the sheer volume of information that was going on. Focht was able to simulatenously view, command and influence multiple theatres and the novel showed him at one point managing 2-3 different battles.

If they have satellites, wireless communications, and shit I think its safe to assume they have land lines of some kind, and probably satellites. This sounds like an important planet, so I doubt they'd stint on their technological capabilities when it comes to command and control unless something forced them to. Besides, any invading force woul dhave to assume that anyhow and address it in any event, so the viability of this tactic is also worth considering.

AND....... yes, the tamos bunker was not known to the Clans. Smoke Jaguar did come close to discovering it, its defences were a couple of platoons of infantry and Focht personal battlemech. Static defences include being able to complete shut off access to its tunnels and etc, allowing the inhabitants to continue their job in a siege with their months of supply and power.

This again leads to the question I asked earlier. How much of the out of universe information I know applies in universe? I shouldn't just assume because I know it, my hypothetical general does. I'm not asking you speficialyl, but generally, since it seems a bit unfair to assume total omnisicence on my part.

I also forgot to ask, how are the cities arranged? I got the impression they're scattered over the planet, rather than concentrated, but it pays to be clear on this.

You see..... that brings us to an interesting question. There is no reason why players should have been handicapped by the Clans lack of aerial supremacy, which prevented them from bringing in dropships to shuttle their forces around. Comstar did do it, inserting entire battalions behind Clan lines such as when they attempted to interdict Clan Jade Falcon withdrawal.

How fast could they do that? Do we know how? That sort of mobility (for infantry at least) will be useful. Were they able to airlift vehicles as well? That, plus having to defend (or attack) such operations is going to be fundamental to the discussion.

Reading up on the battle, it does sound like they are highly used to mobility warfare, so this may be something that a bidder wants to hamper if not neutralize somehow (although against thousands of aircraft.. that's going to be fun.)

Similarly, unlike Battletech, other forces like the LAAT from SW, Valkyrie and assault shuttles from WH40k offer unprecedented airmobile armies. Btech limitations in terms of suitable terrain and space for a LZ, shuttle capacity won't apply and this will means newer tactics.

That's kinda what I was thinking. Unless these cities are clustered closely together, rather than being scattered all over the globe, then airmobility is going to become vital. So much so I have to wonder hwo that is going to be scored relative to other factors (firepower, troop size, etc.) Since the ability to concentrate forces (or the lack of this ability) will have a huge impact on tactics.

For example, if I bid a RL Strike Legion we're talking a force that can travel 240 kph (close to the ground) or 900 kph (some 5-15 km over the ground, I forget which). A strike legion has around 1,000 or so grav tanks of varying classes (most medium IIRC, but some heavy, which is to say they mass upwards of 400 tons, carry 150-200mm hyper-velocity EM guns, etc.) I dont remember the exact infantry, but many thousands (4-5 thousand maybe?) all in similarily fast APCs armed with multi-km ranged hypervelocity spike guns and jump packs allowing up to 36 kph movement.) Arty and logistics are equally fast, and the arty has direct and indirect fire attack ability over 100+ km ranges (hundreds of km in some source) Some I believe even has its organic air support (tens or hundreds of ton fighters) That's both insane mobility and insane firepower, which could (depending on the size or mobility of the BT forces) give it a decisive advantage even if the cities are widely spaced. This force could not HOLD territory on its own, but I could bid other forces or parts of other forces to do that (other Legion classes, like Garrison legions.)

But if I tried using an IG regiment that used Russes (even the higher end mobility wise) Valkyries and such, even if they had greater numbers the same would not be true. Indeed even though some Russes have demonstrated an effective range of 1000+ km without need to refuel, I doubt you could count on them being able to conquer a whole planet without some airlifting of troops and vehicles. Space marines might, though.

It was why I suggested that the players be restricted to landing their force in the Clans original LZ as airmobility would mean entirely different campaign terrain. For example, why go through Devil Bath if you could simply teleport a company of Terminators into Port Raccice?

Perhaps each force is allowed to land only once, and once landed cannot be moved. This could allow the un-landed troops to be held as "reserves" unless needed (for example, my aforementioned garrison troops could be held in orbit until I was ready to conquer the city, then I could deploy them in unarmed drop ships to advance and take control of the subjugated city.)

Alternately, allow the general to "bid" on a certain number of uses of airlift (unarmed) to transport troops. Obviously the fewer the better, and the smaller the better.

Try none. While this is 3050 as opposed to 3025, traditional power sources of agriculture is a horse wagon. Well, technically, its a mechanised tractor plowing the field while you're saddling the horse to transport the produce to market...

Ok.... We DO know that Tukayyid agricultural segment was massive and this would require some form of mechanisation, particularly, the large siloes and warehouses Comstar co-opted for their logistic needs. However, Tukayyid is in the large sense of things a backwater world with no value other than agriculture. And BTECH agriculture as it is. Imagine a 1990s farming economy, but without access to the cheap fuel supplies or cheap industrial equipment available to the local farmers , which replaces what is too expensive/unavailable with labour or animal power. Sort of post peak oil.

That actually opens up a rather fun/nasty idea. How "intact" do we want to take this, and are we talking short or long term? A prolonged energy-weapons battle on the large scale, even if the weapons are individually tiny, can inject lots of energy into an enviroment, which could have unpredictable ecologoical consequences. Even if a hypothetical force does take it, the level of combat might render it useless even if the cities are taken intact until the weather patterns sort themselves out. (since we're not allowing orbitla bombardment scale firepower, this mitigates it somewhat.)

Portable chargers, batteries are available to Comstar forces but a gasoline charger or solar isn't that fantastic when compared to the huge number of lasguns and etc that needs charging. I will point out however that your occupation force is severely overkill, as the Comguards would have problems projecting 100,000 infantry to occupying a city, so, a reduction in numbers would probably solve these kind of logistic problems. Securing logistic lines may be a problem but it shouldn't be too difficult to dig in and then develop each city as its own base.

True to a point, but that also depends on what sort of firepower you need to kill a Comguard trooper. Kinetic and thermal resistance of armor is the primary detail here, as is armor coverage. I mean I tenatively have identified lasgun powerpacks averaging single digit (at least ) MJ capacities, so they aren't going to be hideously hard to recharge, and if they don't need much energy per shot to kill, then that may cut down on recharging time.

It's also quite possible/likely that they ccan just bring portable generators of their own they have them (hell they rig up lasguns to them seomtimes for near-infinite ammo capacity.)

[PainRack]

So basically there will be a public sort of "declaration" of the forces amassed, but it won't neccesarily be all that technical. For the most part that might benefit whatever force is doing the bidding, since in large part the capabilities won't be unknown until actually deployed.

This can be somewhat hampered depending on how the bid is declared. Is it just (for example) a textual listing of forces (numbers, equipment, etc.) or is there visual? I'd imagine Comstar could guess some of it based on inferences of what is shown/described (EG if they see an IG trooper and read a listing of his equipment, they might figure out he uses laser weapons and unpowered armor. We might fudge this somehwat by using fully enclosed carapace-armoured troops that might superficially resemble power armor, and employ proper names and acronyms to obfuscate equipment listings - Eg "Mars short pattern Mark V long arm" or some such designation to hide that it's a massless energy weapon.)

Such subterfuge wouldn't matter much in a large scale/mass invasion, but every little edge will help lower the forces required for the bid.

To be fair though, it occurs to me I am assuming the bidding force (namely me) is assuming I have perfect knowledge of Comstar equipment and capabilities because, out of universe, I do. That may or may not hold true (I may only know as much as the Clans do, for example.) Does that make a difference?

To make things simpler, I would simply assume that Comstar had had the same level of access to any invading force that it historically did with the Clans. Namely, interviews with their leaders and rank and file soldiers, observation of 2 years worth of battles, access to an unknown detail of records(Wolfnet asserts that Comstar records of Clan history is in error due to the Schism. Phelan notes that the Clans themselves aren't too truthful of clan history/society due to their own myths.)

Each enemy commander however is going to enjoy the advantage of knowing exactly what Comstar has as its capabilties as a trade off, something the Clans didn't have.Or rather, mistook. Nobody in the entire Sphere knew that the Comguards had extremely well trained, qualifying as elite troops which had limited number of battle seasoning from pirate or stealth conflicts. Battletechnology magazine reveals that Comstar has been conducting "live" training by selectively attacking mercenary commands secretly and other stealth combat missions.

The Clans knew of Comstar armies and even their "stated" capabilities, however, they simply believed that Comstar was a pacifist organisation and her armies were nothing to speak of. Apart from Clan Wolf, and this was due more to Ulric caution backed with advice from Natasha and Phelan.

It sounds like they are strongly directed by a centralized source. The question then becomes, how do they react if the top level command staff is taken out? I'm not saying that any bidding force can easily do this automatically, or that it would even be possible, but it sounds like it might be worth considerting.

The decision was made to centralise command. Normally, Comstar forces were divided across the entire sphere and had never fought a full army scale conflict before. Its army was considered green by her general, Focht himself even after his reforms to actually introduce operational expertise.

We could argue that in the event of the Tamos bunker being successfullly cut off or destroyed, the Comguards armies might find it extremely difficult to coordinate with each other on the army or inter division level.

Its just too hard to gauge other following problems other than the usual foulups involved with taking out a HQ unit of any army.

They are capable of irregular operations or the so called term "Bandit" defence. A small unit of light armour harrassed Clan forces for over a month on Apollo in the aftermath of Operation Scorpion before returning forces from Tukayyid wiped them out.

Do they have trains, ships, or large transport aircraft of any sort? I'd assume at the very least they might have trains.
Do we have any idea how quickly they could shift forces of any size (say thousands or tens of thousands of infantryman, maybe dozens or hundreds of ground vehicles, etc.)

within the space of a week, they were able to route multiple divisions from one theatre to another to reinforce failing assault/defences. We don't know what is the scale of their logistic network though. One division in Field Manual Comstar was stated to have fought against 3 seperate Clans.

There are two points to consider. In Third Edition Battletech, we are informed that in 3025, armies logistic networks were so effective at delivering supplies that they could essentially centralise logistics depot for the entire planet in one, central location and sustain operations from there. This suggest that Btech armies do have significant logistic lift capacity.
However, 3025 warfare was severely limited to maneveur... well, best term is strikes as opposed to its in universe term, maneveur warfare. The failing industrial efforts, scavenging, limited stores all meant that battles were limited. This in turn would imply that resupply was also limited, and logistic networks could be dedicated to transport or resupply based on the vagaries of battle.

The TROs suggest that basic battlefield support was handled by a variety of vehicles, from the J-27 ammunitation transport and the Karnov transport, which carries ammunition and other cargo of a few tons. The Mechlifter as well as the Karnov has been used to airlift mechs, similar to chinooks carrying jeeps. Shuttles handle significantly higher power operations that require longer range and dropships do the heavy lifting. However, heavier lift capacity such as dropships is limited by terrain as well as some tactical inflexibility due to their technology.

Suffice to say that Comstar logistic networks on Tukayyid was sufficiently developed enough that it evacuated several million people from the planet in the space of months, acquired and stored sufficient ammunition and parts for a "month" of combat and was able to sustain combat operations, resupply and reinforcements across 6 theatres of operations.
They defended their supply lines against Clan Wolf, well enough that while threatened by raids, enough supplies were going through that they could mount an ineffective defence/counter attack against Clan Wolf.

If they have satellites, wireless communications, and shit I think its safe to assume they have land lines of some kind, and probably satellites. This sounds like an important planet, so I doubt they'd stint on their technological capabilities when it comes to command and control unless something forced them to. Besides, any invading force woul dhave to assume that anyhow and address it in any event, so the viability of this tactic is also worth considering.

Just a caveat, the planet itself wasn't important, other than as a proxy world for the Battle of Terra. Comstar simply fortified it sufficiently that it gained enough advantages to fight there against the Clans.

This again leads to the question I asked earlier. How much of the out of universe information I know applies in universe? I shouldn't just assume because I know it, my hypothetical general does. I'm not asking you speficialyl, but generally, since it seems a bit unfair to assume total omnisicence on my part.

Frankly, I would simply assume that the players know what forces and assets Comstar has in place and their capabilties. Something the Clans were told but didn't believe. The difference would be exact tactics won't be known, unless some dedicated effort was made to find out onplanet as Comstar had literally never fought a armed war before.

I also forgot to ask, how are the cities arranged? I got the impression they're scattered over the planet, rather than concentrated, but it pays to be clear on this.

We don't have a map. Geographical names as well as combat fluff do suggest overland routes connecting all the objectives, kozzice appears to have been a common enough name that the various clans were probably fighting near each other. Otherwise, Tukayyid is an arid world that's covered mostly with plains. The scale of operational theatres may be seen in the form of changing geography. Jade Falcons landed in the plains and crossed several major rivers. Steel Viper Hot Springs exited from the plains into a geyser filled "swamp" termed Devils Bath. Dinju Heights was apparently at the end of an entire mountain pass/valley. Similarly, Clan Ghost bear transited multiple terrain, including exiting a massive forest fire that took them "days" to move through.

The density of forces may also give us an extremely rough idea of how widespread the battles were. Multiple divisions were able to fight in Dinju Pass for example, however, reports from the battle(both in terms of game scenarios, novelisation and etc) showed skirmishes happening at company strength operations. They were layered operations and defence lines however.....

How fast could they do that? Do we know how? That sort of mobility (for infantry at least) will be useful. Were they able to airlift vehicles as well? That, plus having to defend (or attack) such operations is going to be fundamental to the discussion.

Reading up on the battle, it does sound like they are highly used to mobility warfare, so this may be something that a bidder wants to hamper if not neutralize somehow (although against thousands of aircraft.. that's going to be fun.)

It....... depends.
A coldstart dropship launch requires several hours as APU power up a dropship and etc. Additional time might be required due to the terrain. However, a prepared spaceport should significantly reduce operation timing. No fixed data has been forthcoming regarding jumpstarting a fusion reactor cold although we do know its impossibly fast.
Ignoring outlier examples from the novels in favour of cookie cutter descriptions from fluff, i would say hours? The Falcon maneveur was a dropship ground to ground maneveur, involving the embarking of a battalion and debussing at the LZ at an unknown timeframe later(within half a day).
Similarly, the Fed Com Civil War in 3072 yields to us multiple examples of airborne raids, operations that had embarkation and etc taking place in less than a day, or hours even. Adam Steiner assault on Prince Victor was the Btech variant of a Wh40k drop pod assault, involving a daring orbital decceleration and assault right on Victor positions.. Clan Nova Cat and the Falcons are also known to participate in such tactics, with Clan Nova cat being famous for its hover assaults.(Dropships hovering in the atmosphere while mechs jump). This insertion is riskier, but presumably superior in terms of deployment speed when compared to a convential dropship assault. Otherwise, such tactics would find no justification as a tactic.

True to a point, but that also depends on what sort of firepower you need to kill a Comguard trooper. Kinetic and thermal resistance of armor is the primary detail here, as is armor coverage. I mean I tenatively have identified lasgun powerpacks averaging single digit (at least ) MJ capacities, so they aren't going to be hideously hard to recharge, and if they don't need much energy per shot to kill, then that may cut down on recharging time.

[/quote]
The bulk of Comstar infantry would have effectively no thermal resistance armour. What kit they possess would be to protect them from thermal effects, but not armour per se. Not against the scale of Wh40k weapons anyway.

However, I must point out that I'm saying this based on the solar recharging/power point conversion rate, and the power points mechanics don't scale properly(just like EVERY battletech mechanic. God, sometimes, i wonder how their game mechanics can mesh "nice" enough that even ammunition is equalised, but the physics of it is insane!!!!). Neither do the capabilities actually....

We might have to ask nephtys because he might be familar with cray work on this from the RPG and stuff. I was introduced to it back in 2007?8? But I simply don't have the technical expertise to do it again from first principles.

[Raxmei]

Considering the strategic situation I've been thinking that a Tau coalition might be a good 40k choice for this mission. It's pretty important to be able to shift one's own forces from objective to objective and prevent the Comguard from doing the same. Tau are largely airmobile and they have a reasonable air force.

[Agent Sorchus]

Considering the strategic situation I've been thinking that a Tau coalition might be a good 40k choice for this mission. It's pretty important to be able to shift one's own forces from objective to objective and prevent the Comguard from doing the same. Tau are largely airmobile and they have a reasonable air force.

This is one of the reasons that I think a Dark Eldar Kabal could do real good, especially with the mobility of the webway to link all the combat zones. Unfortunately figuring out the numbers for a DEldar force would be patently silly since they don't think of themselves as an actual factual army and are unlikely to actually strike where they know they are to be expected.

(It would also be hard to qualify the individual superiority of the Warriors of the Kabal.)

Still if I had to guess at numbers
~80k Warriors and Wyches (with raiders to match half the force so ~4k)
5k Scourge
12 or more Webway portals (More so that you could bring in large numbers of troops at once, but always in multiples of 12 so that each front would be equal.)
10k Beasts and other monsters
1,000 Void Raven fighter bombers
2500 Ravager gunboats
5k Reaver jetbikes
200 Mandrakes

Possibly larger numbers than what the Dark Eldar usually strike with, but against a hardened target. Their biggest advantage is speed. Everything should be as fast or faster than the fastest battlemech except the foot mobile troops beasts and scourge, yet they are the troops best able to use the Webway to quickly reinforce any of the fronts. The Mandrakes would be best used to cut the headquarters to pieces with their rather unqualtified ability to appear in any shadow.

[Agent Sorchus]

Just noticed this, but it has been itching at the back of my mind since the thread started.

... It doesn't need to have a firepower parity or advantage (but it can't be too much weaker either), but it probably should have some range/durability and mobility advantage. ...

Just wanted to point out the range thing, IIRC Tukayyid was selected as the location by comguard in part because of the rolling hills aspect of the terrain being such that the clans range advantage was negated. (Something like an average view of 350m throughout the probable battlefields, which exacerbated the clan's willingness to get into only honorable direct fire matches.)

The speed advantage can be even better though in such enclosed space. And I totally agree about a highly mobile strike force backed up by a take and hold group.

[PainRack]

[We don't have a map. Geographical names as well as combat fluff do suggest overland routes connecting all the objectives, kozzice appears to have been a common enough name that the various clans were probably fighting near each other. Otherwise, Tukayyid is an arid world that's covered mostly with plains. The scale of operational theatres may be seen in the form of changing geography. Jade Falcons landed in the plains and crossed several major rivers. Steel Viper Hot Springs exited from the plains into a geyser filled "swamp" termed Devils Bath. Dinju Heights was apparently at the end of an entire mountain pass/valley. Similarly, Clan Ghost bear transited multiple terrain, including exiting a massive forest fire that took them "days" to move through.

Sorry, brain bug. It took them "hours" to move through the forest fire, as described in Comstar manual.

It was also stated as a junior commander evaluation that the Ghost Bear could had successfully pulled out if they disengaged through the fire.

[PainRack]

Just wanted to point out the range thing, IIRC Tukayyid was selected as the location by comguard in part because of the rolling hills aspect of the terrain being such that the clans range advantage was negated. (Something like an average view of 350m throughout the probable battlefields, which exacerbated the clan's willingness to get into only honorable direct fire matches.)

The speed advantage can be even better though in such enclosed space. And I totally agree about a highly mobile strike force backed up by a take and hold group.

Source?
Also, Tukayyid from the wiki is described as mostly plains. What it did have was terrain that would allow the Comguards to strike and harass the enemy, prolonging a conflict.

[Agent Sorchus]

Just wanted to point out the range thing, IIRC Tukayyid was selected as the location by comguard in part because of the rolling hills aspect of the terrain being such that the clans range advantage was negated. (Something like an average view of 350m throughout the probable battlefields, which exacerbated the clan's willingness to get into only honorable direct fire matches.)

The speed advantage can be even better though in such enclosed space. And I totally agree about a highly mobile strike force backed up by a take and hold group.

Source?
Also, Tukayyid from the wiki is described as mostly plains. What it did have was terrain that would allow the Comguards to strike and harass the enemy, prolonging a conflict.

Looks like I am mostly wrong here, but this is what I misrecalled

Like a time-lapse film of mushrooms growing, the BattleMechs sprouted up until they reached the Precentor Martial's waist. He squatted down until sighting over the torso of one Wolf Clan Hagetaka, then smiled as he realized he could see nothing. He reached out his right hand, as he would have from the command couch of a BattleMech, and switched from vislight to infrared to magscan and back to vislight again. In none of the various scanner settings did he see anything.
He stood again and smiled. "Computer, note that because of the landscape's rolling nature, at 150 meters on the Przeno Plain on Tukayyid, the Wolf Clan approached our entrenched forces without being able to detect them."

So the plains (which below are stated to be where the precenter expected the primary combat to take place) are rolling enough to deny some visibility in places, but that is obviously not the entirety of that scene.

A little further into the scene we have a list of why Tukayyid was chosen, and has no mention of range denial.

"Primus, Tukayyid has a number of things to recommend it. The world has many open areas for direct confrontations. The mountains are suitable for hit-and-run operations. The weather tends to be superior most of the time, which bodes well for aerospace and atmospheric fighter-craft. Moreover, Tukayyid has countless storage facilities, which, at this time of year, are empty and waiting for the fruits of the coming harvest. We can use them for munitions and supplies for our troops. Best of all, the low population is concentrated in easily defensible positions, which does not allow the Clans to use civilians against us."

So I would say that the Comguard defenders had selected there defenses to deny range to the clans, but that the planet wasn't chosen specifically for that.