Some thoughts having watched Andromeda

[Eternal_Freedom]

Ok, I've been watching Andromeda of late, and, avoiding artistic criticisms about the series, I have come to some realisations about the technology.

It seems very schizophrenic. As in, parts of it are waaay out of proportion with the rest. Namely:

Firepower:
Andromeda displays some fairly hefty firepower during the series, but the best quantification I have found comes from Season 2, "The Prince" in which holo-Rommie says this about just one of her armaments:

40 missile tubes, each firing 8 missiles per second.

A few moments later she specifies that those are 20 megatonne warheads and that she can depopulate an Earth-type planet in two minutes.

Now, that's fairly low in terms of firepower, at least for high-end ships in sci-fi universes. Of course they have Nova bombs, which according to Dylan in Season Three's "Slipfighter the Dogs of War" leave nothing behind, not even dust. I understand that was the intent for firepower, a massive difference between conventional and Nova weapons, as a Cold War parallel.

FTL:
Slipstream is a right bastard at times. Reliable and fast travel between and within three galaxies (Milky Way, Andromeda and Triangulam). In Season Two's "The Widening Gyre" Rommie recalls her mission against the Magog as flying out to M86, 65 million LY away. She escapes after some problems and spends thirteen months wandering the slipstream without a pilot, before returning.

In perspective, that is 60 million times c. Wandering. Without a pilot, with the implication being she coudl have gone faster with a pilot aboard. That's...faster than a lot of sci-fi FTL.

Manufacturing/Self-repair:
Andromeda can manufacture everything with just what she has one board, from weapon mounts to missiles to slipstream drives. Without a crew on board either. That takes some insane manufacturing tech.

Also, in Season One's "It's Hour Come Round At Last", which leads into "The Widening Gyre" Andromeda has two massive holes blown clean through her superstructure, and the ship remains flyable, again with only a couple of crew aboard. And by the second episode of Season Two, those holes have been repaired. Absurd!

You see what I mean about the tech being schizophrenic? In comparison with SW and ST, which is pretty much the default standard for this board, systems Commonwealth weapons tech leaves a fair amount to be desired even compared with Trek in some cases. They completely lack energy shields. So in a tactical contest they get fragged. But in terms of manufacturing, repair and suport tech, and sublight manuevering and FTl speeds, they can assrape the Empire at times.

Mad or what?

[Sarevok]

You forgot the immense combat ranges, probably the farthest of any science fiction portrayed in visual media form.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

40 missile tubes, each firing 8 missiles per second.

That's 320 missiles per second. At a lower limit of 20 megatons per warhead. 6400 megatons per second.

That's... not that bad, really. Not Star Destroyer levels of firepower by any means, but... certainly enough. Those are kinetic impactors, by the way, moving at speeds up to 90% of the speed of light. But yeah, Andromeda just does things differently from Trek and Wars. The lack of shields is probably the only major thing I'd say they'd lose against Trek. But since they also engage in combat at ranges that can be measured in light seconds, and have relatively effective point defense, I doubt Trek would give them much trouble.

[Eternal_Freedom]

True, I only mentioend Trek as a comparison for per-shot damage. And we also have to consider these are "smart missiles" with VERY good terminal manuevreing.

The Balance of Judgement and Wrath of Achilles/Resolution of Hector are said to have 120 missile tubes and also have "AP Cannons" which are apparently wuite dangerous.

I still think that's disproportionate when compared to the batshit-insane FTL speeds, STL maneuvreing and manufacturing/damage-control/repair abilities, especially when she doesn't have a crew aboard. (And she was meant to have a crew of 4000 IIRC).

[Jawawithagun]

The lack of shields is probably the only major thing I'd say they'd lose against Trek. But since they also engage in combat at ranges that can be measured in light seconds, and have relatively effective point defense, I doubt Trek would give them much trouble.

Don't they also lack FTL sensors and non-courier communications? Those lacks will make things much harder for them against Trek.

[Batman]

They definitely lacked FTL sensors and communications (other than couriers) as the series started out, but I think that aspect got sort of brushed aside in the later seasons.

[PREDATOR490]

Andromeda gets played up a lot but the series makes a few references to bigger stuff out there. The DXL crusiers were supposedly more powerful than Andromeda and designed to be 'ship-killers' from what Dylan states. Thus Andromeda may not be an accurate reflection of Commonwealth weaponary.

Not that it matters much anyway, the weapons they have are quite effective even after 300 years with no indication technology progressed at all. The Andromeda weapons technology seems to be based around the concept of missile spam until the target's ECM / Point Defence gets overwhelmed. Thus building missiles that are cheap and easy to build makes a decent amount of sense.

As for FTL - That is entirely dependant on wether or not it works outside their realm. The dynamics are never really explored but Slipstream seemingly dosent operate in 'open' space and their is no 'map' to follow.

[someone_else]

You see what I mean about the tech being schizophrenic?

Why should it be? It's just a setting that tries to be different form the mainstream. Until the last season anway, where everything gets crappy.

You react like it is somewhat wrong to not look like SW/ST. None of the three is "better".

Andromeda can manufacture everything with just what she has one board, from weapon mounts to missiles to slipstream drives. Without a crew on board either.

The fact worth noting is why Star Trek can't do better with their replicators. As computer science they can do the same (ST holograms are basically low-grade AIs, if you saw Voyager).

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'm not saying it should be more like SW or ST, it just seems unbalanced. Out of scale if you like. On one hand, having fairly low-yield weapons and a lack of non-courier FTL comms, and on the other being able to traverse three galaxies in a matter of days or weeks. It just strikes me as being waaaaay too fast.

[Jawawithagun]

Not all sciences develop at the same pace and not all universes have laws of nature that permit the development of a particular technology.

It's like saying that it is out of scale for us to have our current computer tech but still powering our cars by burning petrol instead of having a Mr Fusion.

[Thanas]

I'm not saying it should be more like SW or ST, it just seems unbalanced. Out of scale if you like. On one hand, having fairly low-yield weapons and a lack of non-courier FTL comms, and on the other being able to traverse three galaxies in a matter of days or weeks. It just strikes me as being waaaaay too fast.

Why? For example, the disparity between normal ship weapons and WMDs like Nova bombs or planet busters is roughly analogous to modern-day disparity between conventional weaponry and nukes. You yourself note the paralell, so why should it be that schizophrenic?

(also, most of Andromeda's firepower are also drones, which can produce explosions of up to 1 GT, and the short-range AP cannons who are currently unquantified but are supposed to be heavy guns).

FTL:
Slipstream is a right bastard at times. Reliable and fast travel between and within three galaxies (Milky Way, Andromeda and Triangulam). In Season Two's "The Widening Gyre" Rommie recalls her mission against the Magog as flying out to M86, 65 million LY away. She escapes after some problems and spends thirteen months wandering the slipstream without a pilot, before returning.

In perspective, that is 60 million times c. Wandering. Without a pilot, with the implication being she coudl have gone faster with a pilot aboard. That's...faster than a lot of sci-fi FTL.

However, slipstream is also unpredictable outside very-well travelled routes, which means a trip might take a few minutes....or a few months. Which is why there was such a great deal made out of the slipstream route catalogue in one episode, which would allow an immense tactical advantage to one side.

Also, in Season One's "It's Hour Come Round At Last", which leads into "The Widening Gyre" Andromeda has two massive holes blown clean through her superstructure, and the ship remains flyable, again with only a couple of crew aboard. And by the second episode of Season Two, those holes have been repaired. Absurd!

Not that absurd, given we do not know how much time has passed between the two. I personally suspect it was at least several weeks of hiding in asteroid fields and repairing the ship.

But in terms of manufacturing, repair and suport tech, and sublight manuevering and FTl speeds, they can assrape the Empire at times.

And WMDs, of course. But really, any SW vs CW is more dependant on external factors than the weapons themselves.

[Purple]

Maybe not fusion but with a civilization of our level of development (especially in weaponry and computers) you would expect us to use a hell of a lot more fission plants as opposed to burning coal for power.

And this is no useless analogy either. There are a million reasons why technology can be out of balance like that. It could be cultural reasons or say standardization. If you can fit the same warhead to all starship sizes and just spam more of them for larger ones it makes sense that you do it. Or it might just be that more effective things were not needed (Why develop FTL comms when a courier can carry any message for you just as fast and more securely.)

[Eternal_Freedom]

But really, any SW vs CW is more dependant on external factors than the weapons themselves.

True. Whilst the Commonwealth spans three galaxies and is said to have "ten times as many ships, a hundred times as many men" as the Niezheans (sp?), but Rommie points out they hadn't fought a real war in a thousand years.

Losing a fight, within a year, for control of three galaxies when you outnumber the enemy ten to one is not a good sign for the High Guards competency.

[Sarevok]

The only inconsistency I can think of is planetary defense. We know one single fighter with a nova bomb can wipe out entire star systems. In a total war scenario you cant expect to stop every single fighter from reaching a star systems sun. Given the circumstances living on planets around stars that can go nova seems suicidal... They do make mention of orbitals and we see asteroid habitats but the bulk of the Commonwealth seems to be locked on planets. Which are very dangerous place to live when any madman with a slipfighter and a nova bomb can cause billions of deaths in an instant.

[Thanas]

True. Whilst the Commonwealth spans three galaxies and is said to have "ten times as many ships, a hundred times as many men" as the Niezheans (sp?), but Rommie points out they hadn't fought a real war in a thousand years.

Losing a fight, within a year, for control of three galaxies when you outnumber the enemy ten to one is not a good sign for the High Guards competency.

Well, let us not forget that they also lost over a third (or over half, cannot remember) of their ships to sabotage by high-placed Nietzcheans. And they fought back very well, novabombing the Nietzchean homeworld and destroying them as well. Had it not been for the battle at Whichhead, the High Guard may very well have turned out to have been the victors. Let us also not forget that the enemy had perfect intelligence, knew the terrain and perfect surprise.

I bet that if suddenly half the entire US army deserts while Virginia raises a huuuge professional army and attacks DC, the USA would be in chaos as well.

Also, a lot of the HG strength was due to the member worlds and their contingents, so they had little effective tactical strength available in peacetime. Once Whichhead was lost and Nietzcheans were blowing up their own ships everywhere, they had just a few forces left.

BTW, we have numbers for the HG strength - 360.000 ships in total, with 150.000 of them dedicated combat warships.

The only inconsistency I can think of is planetary defense. We know one single fighter with a nova bomb can wipe out entire star systems. In a total war scenario you cant expect to stop every single fighter from reaching a star systems sun. Given the circumstances living on planets around stars that can go nova seems suicidal... They do make mention of orbitals and we see asteroid habitats but the bulk of the Commonwealth seems to be locked on planets. Which are very dangerous place to live when any madman with a slipfighter and a nova bomb can cause billions of deaths in an instant.

Well, note that the important systems have good planetary defences which are able to shoot missles over several light-seconds - and that you need to get close, that might not be as suicida as you make it out to be. Also, note that we only see planets after the fall, which is their dark ages. To this day, we have not seen one high-tech planet.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Did they actually manage to destroy the Nietzchean homeworld? As I recall that was at Fountainhead and was the target for the fleet rallying at Whitchhead.

As for possibly emerging victorious if not for Witchhead, I don't think that fits with what was said. Tyr seemed pretty adamant that the High Guard was basically finished by then. The Empress dead, the capital world Tarn-Vedra cut off, and at least two galaxies lost as recounted by the Pax Magellanic.

Also, high-tech world, would Tarazed count? or possible Scinti (the Perseid's world)?

[Thanas]

Did they actually manage to destroy the Nietzchean homeworld? As I recall that was at Fountainhead and was the target for the fleet rallying at Whitchhead.

It was destroyed after the battle of Whichhead, with the historical sources either claiming Nietzchean infighting or an act of revenge by surviving CW forces. But you are right, I misremembered the details a bit.

CY 9786 The last battle of the Commonwealth Civil War is fought at the Witchhead Nebula when High Guard ships are ambushed by a larger Nietzschean fleet. The two fleets destroy each other almost completely.
Shortly afterward, the Magog cross the Quarantine Zone in strength and numbers never imagined. Swarm fleets roam all of known space, indiscriminately attacking Nietzschean and former Commonwealth worlds alike. With no central political authority remaining and reliable interstellar communications only a memory, individual worlds are left to fend for themselves.

CY 9787 Weakened by the war to overthrow the Commonwealth, the ruling Nietzschean Drago-Kazov Pride is betrayed and attacked by Pride Jaguar. The Nietzschean alliance is shattered, and instead of replacing the Commonwealth with a Nietzschean empire, chaos reigns instead. Fountainhead is rendered uninhabitable by orbital bombardment, which historical records attribute either to a Pride Jaguar attack or a final act of vengeance from a remaining High Guard starship. The remains of Nietzschean Progentior Drago Museveni are recovered and entrusted to Kodiak Pride, one of Drago-Kazov Pride's allies.

As for possibly emerging victorious if not for Witchhead, I don't think that fits with what was said. Tyr seemed pretty adamant that the High Guard was basically finished by then. The Empress dead, the capital world Tarn-Vedra cut off, and at least two galaxies lost as recounted by the Pax Magellanic.

CY 9784 After years of planning, a coalition of Nietzschean-led forces launch a sneak attack on the High Guard, their intent to overthrow the Systems Commonwealth and replace it with a Nietzschean-dominated empire. High Guard and Home Guard facilities on over 500 worlds are simultaneously attacked, resulting in the destruction in homeport of nearly half the Argosy fleet. Empress Sucharitkul XII is assassinated when her royal barge is ambushed by a Nietzschean strike force, Earth is bombarded from orbit, and an attempt to seize San-Ska-Re is repulsed by Than-led Home Guard units, with heavy casualties on both sides.

CY 9785 The Commonwealth's civil war continues, with the Nietzscheans foiling a High Guard counteroffensive at the Acheron Delta. And in a devastating blow to Commonwealth morale, Tarn-Vedra is abruptly cut off from the Slipstream, by methods unknown. Most of the inhabited worlds in the Andromeda and Milky Way galaxies fall to the Nietzscheans, leaving San-Ska-Re as the Commonwealth's provisional capital.

CY 9786 The last battle of the Commonwealth Civil War is fought at the Witchhead Nebula[...]

I really doubt that sounds as dire as it is. The Nietzcheans had a lot of territory to defend and as Witchhead shows, could scarcely concentrate more than 1.500 ships for a battle at that time. Which is not a lot, especially given that they still had to defend two galaxies and conquer a third. And consider that the Home Guard forces of a single homeworld were enough to repulse a Nietzchean offensive and how quickly the Nietzcheans fractured.

Also, high-tech world, would Tarazed count? or possible Scinti (the Perseid's world)?

Tarazed was little more than a colony outpost iin the series before RHW left, and the Perseid world of Sinti as we see it is described as:

Sinti
Location: Perseus Arm, Milky Way Galaxy
Diameter: 9,700 km
Water coverage: 59%
Climate: Temperate to sub-artic
Population: 237 million (99% Perseid, 1% miscellaneous)
Other Details: A center of learning and research during the Commonwealth era, Sinti suffered greatly from Nietzschean plundering, Magog raids, and other misfortunes, yet its resilient inhabitants have managed to preserve and even advance scientific knowledge in the face of overwhelming odds. Now Sinti is home to one of the few remaining off-world Perseid settlements (see Known Worlds: Ugroth and Species: Perseids) as well as the first signatory to the restored Systems Commonwealth charter.

So a population of only 237 million, whereas the Persian homeworld is described as having over 150 billion inhabitants.

Not exactly what I would describe as a high-end world, though the tech might be of a high level.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Fair enough, I don't recall ever hearing the populations of either one.

Incidentally, can you provide a link for that timeline please? That would come in very handy.

[Thanas]

From Allsystems, the canon reference for the series and written by the writers of the show.

[CaptainChewbacca]

To me, Andromeda comes about as close to an 'Orion's Arm' series as is ever likely to exist. The overreliance on nanomachines, AIs, and genetic engineering is pretty extensive.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Thank you Thanas, this looks like a fantastic website. Time to get my geek on for the next few hours.

[Ahriman238]

The Balance of Judgement and Wrath of Achilles/Resolution of Hector are said to have 120 missile tubes and also have "AP Cannons" which are apparently wuite dangerous.

I still think that's disproportionate when compared to the batshit-insane FTL speeds, STL maneuvreing and manufacturing/damage-control/repair abilities, especially when she doesn't have a crew aboard. (And she was meant to have a crew of 4000 IIRC).

The capabilities of Andromeda ships is impressive, and while I may not be a big fan of the writing, I love the series for giving us lots of numbers to play with.

Most impressive is their TARDIS technology. What's that you say? I must mean Dr. Who? Nah, how else do you explain fitting 4500 crew, 4000 matinence/repair/security bots, 8000 marines, 124 fighters and 2 mecha with room left over for over 2000 passengers and 10 million square meters of cargo space, with supporting technology into Andromeda's described 1301 x 978 x 325 meter square? And how do half-adozen people not rattle around like peas inside that? Where are the vast and empty bunkrooms and mess halls?

And while SLipstream is impressivley fast FTL, in realspace the Andromeda regularly flies at .4c and is stated to be able to slow from that speed to a dead halt and accelerate back to full burn within five minutes. Anyone care to calc that accel/decel? I'd do it myself but my math skills are the stuff of legend. Really embarrassing legend.

Oh, and the Balance actually had 180 missile tubes with similar RoF as Andromeda that makes [checks calculator] over 14,000 missiles per second. Some of them the heavy missiles that serve as launch platforms for up to a dozen smaller homing missiles. It was apparently meant to be a specialist ship for dealing with Magog swarm tactics, only a few AP cannons, no fighters or marines, just a enough missile capacity to make David Weber choke, and the equiment and crew to get it places. If anyone ever got within 4 light seconds (apparently a universal ceiling on energy weapon ranges in Andromeda-verse) the Balance was in real trouble, even if it was just a freighter with a few warheads loaded up.

Of course, at the time of the civil war with the Nietzcheans, the Commonwealth only had three ships of Balance's class and a dozen of Andromeda's with the vast majority of their fleet being Deep Standoff Attack ships, Group Defense Frigates and various scout, supply and troopships.

EDIT: Also, is it my imagination, or does Andromeda and her class require an order of magnitude more crew, despite the ship being able to practically fly itself? I mean, I know she needs a living pilot to do more with Slipstream than zip around randomly, but what do all these thousands of people do and how do they do almost as well with enough people to fit into an SUV?

[Eternal_Freedom]

The pilot episode shows Dylan ordering Andromeda's remaining androids (27 I think) to man the critical systems. At other times we see them standing guard, manning consoles and wandering the halls. Presumably that is what makes up the shortfall.

Despite that, a crew of at most 40 or so androids and sentients is two orders of magnitude less than her stated complement of 4000. Also, the Andromeda wiki lists her officer/enlsited ratio as 1/11, which is lower than other ships which mostly seem to be 1/8.

[Batman]

Let's see-the US Navy managed to fit roughly a hundred aircraft considerably larger than slipfighters and 6,000 people on aircraft carriers a fraction the size of a GHC. Yes, I rather think that works.
Oh, and 5 minutes to/from 40PSL is roughly 40,774gs I think, or 407 kps squared.

[Thanas]

Oh, and the Balance actually had 180 missile tubes with similar RoF as Andromeda that makes [checks calculator] over 14,000 missiles per second. Some of them the heavy missiles that serve as launch platforms for up to a dozen smaller homing missiles. It was apparently meant to be a specialist ship for dealing with Magog swarm tactics, only a few AP cannons, no fighters or marines, just a enough missile capacity to make David Weber choke, and the equiment and crew to get it places. If anyone ever got within 4 light seconds (apparently a universal ceiling on energy weapon ranges in Andromeda-verse) the Balance was in real trouble, even if it was just a freighter with a few warheads loaded up.

Where do you get the 4 light seconds = real trouble from?

Of course, at the time of the civil war with the Nietzcheans, the Commonwealth only had three ships of Balance's class and a dozen of Andromeda's with the vast majority of their fleet being Deep Standoff Attack ships, Group Defense Frigates and various scout, supply and troopships.

Where do you get a "dozen" number from? And the DSA I/II are very impressive on their own.

EDIT: Also, is it my imagination, or does Andromeda and her class require an order of magnitude more crew, despite the ship being able to practically fly itself? I mean, I know she needs a living pilot to do more with Slipstream than zip around randomly, but what do all these thousands of people do and how do they do almost as well with enough people to fit into an SUV?

A lot of Andromeda is automated with nanobots, droids etc. Not coincidentally, Andromeda also gets in real trouble once those systems are failing - no backup.

Let's see-the US Navy managed to fit roughly a hundred aircraft considerably larger than slipfighters and 6,000 people on aircraft carriers a fraction the size of a GHC. Yes, I rather think that works.

While also not having the luxury of manipulating gravity, nanobot technology etc.