Bin Laden Raid Use Of "Geronimo" Inappropriate?

[FSTargetDrone]

Story:

Senate official: Wrong to link bin Laden, Geronimo
By MATTHEW DALY, Associated Press Matthew Daly, Associated Press Tue May 3, 11:17 pm ET

WASHINGTON – The top staffer for the Senate Indian Affairs Committee is objecting to the U.S. military's use of the code name "Geronimo" for Osama bin Laden during the raid that killed the al-Qaida leader.

Geronimo was an Apache leader in the 19th century who spent many years fighting the Mexican and U.S. armies until his surrender in 1886.

Loretta Tuell, staff director and chief counsel for the Senate Indian Affairs Committee, said Tuesday it was inappropriate to link Geronimo, whom she called "one of the greatest Native American heroes," with one of the most hated enemies of the United States.

"These inappropriate uses of Native American icons and cultures are prevalent throughout our society, and the impacts to Native and non-Native children are devastating," Tuell said.

Tuell is a member of the Nez Perce tribe and grew on the tribe's reservation in Idaho. The Senate Indian Affairs panel had previously scheduled a hearing for Thursday on racial stereotypes of native people. Tuell said the use of Geronimo in the bin Laden raid will be discussed.

Steven Newcomb, a columnist for the weekly newspaper Indian Country Today, criticized what he called a disrespectful use of a name revered by many Native Americans.

"Apparently, having an African-American president in the White House is not enough to overturn the more than 200-year American tradition of treating and thinking of Indians as enemies of the United States," Newcomb wrote.

After bin Laden was killed, the military sent a message back to the White House: "Geronimo EKIA" — enemy killed in action.

"It's another attempt to label Native Americans as terrorists," said Paula Antoine of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe in South Dakota.

A White House spokesman referred questions about the code name to the Pentagon. A Defense Department spokeswoman declined to comment.

Jefferson Keel, president of National Congress of American Indians, the largest organization representing American Indians and Alaska Natives, said, "Osama bin Laden was a shared enemy."

Keel said that since 2001, 77 American Indians and Alaskan Natives have died defending the U.S. in Afghanistan and Iraq. More than 400 have been wounded.

So I always thought that soldiers would yell this before going into action as a war cry. Not as an association with the man (Geronimo) being a terrorist. It seems clear to me that that is how the men on this raid were using it, as a go-word/war cry type thing. So, what's the problem? A simple misunderstanding?

[DireApostasy]

After bin Laden was killed, the military sent a message back to the White House: "Geronimo EKIA" — enemy killed in action.

Well, going by this their problem isn't that Geronimo was used as a war cry, it's that it was used as the codename for OBL.

[CaptainChewbacca]

As I understand it, 'Geronimo' wasn't the intelligence code word for Bin Laden, but rather the code word for 'We killed Bin Laden'. So it seems to be the war cry format. The fact that both were longtime enemies of the US and were hunted/tracked is unfortunate.

[FSTargetDrone]

After bin Laden was killed, the military sent a message back to the White House: "Geronimo EKIA" — enemy killed in action.

Well, going by this their problem isn't that Geronimo was used as a war cry, it's that it was used as the codename for OBL.

Hm, I guess I read that "Geronimo EKIA" as a sort of "success! He's dead!" kind of thing.

EDIT: Chewie just said it more elegantly than I did, but that was how I understood it.

[DireApostasy]

As I understand it, 'Geronimo' wasn't the intelligence code word for Bin Laden, but rather the code word for 'We killed Bin Laden'. So it seems to be the war cry format. The fact that both were longtime enemies of the US and were hunted/tracked is unfortunate.

Fair enough. It seems fairly ambiguous one way or the other to me going purely by this article, but I'll concede the point since I don't really know if this article has it right or not - there seems to be lots of slightly different stories coming out going by all the articles in the other thread.

[Mr. Coffee]

Really? Seriously, we finally off the son of a bitch and people are bitching about the use of "Geronimo" as a code word? Christ, now I want to drive to DC and slap the fucking taste out of a lawyer's mouth.

[Akhlut]

I think some of the American Indians are reading too much into it (Ms. Antoine's statement that "It's another attempt to label Native Americans as terrorists"), however, I think their grievances are very legitimate.

I think Chewie's right that "Geronimo" was used as a sort of warcry to indicate mission success rather than using "Geronimo" as a code-name for Osama, but that does lead to the question of how appropriate it is to use his name as a warcry.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I don't think 'political correctness' matters in military or combat situations, and we should let the guys with guns run their show however they want.

[SylasGaunt]

I could be remembering wrong but don't a lot of the codenames for operations and individuals get spit out by a computer?

[Akhlut]

I don't think 'political correctness' matters in military or combat situations, and we should let the guys with guns run their show however they want.

Would you be okay with them calling potential Taliban members "Brigham Youngs" and referring to IEDs as "Moronis"? What if they said "Joseph Smith EKIA" instead? Still good with you?

[TheHammer]

I'm with Coffee. They can fuck off. Its going out of your way to try and take offense to something.

Steven Newcomb, a columnist for the weekly newspaper Indian Country Today, criticized what he called a disrespectful use of a name revered by many Native Americans.

"Apparently, having an African-American president in the White House is not enough to overturn the more than 200-year American tradition of treating and thinking of Indians as enemies of the United States," Newcomb wrote.

Um he was called the name of a very specific Native American who WAS, like it or not, an enemy of the United States.

I suppose if he had been code named "Hitler" then all Germans should be offended. Or if he'd been called Pancho Villa then the Mexicans should be up in Arms. Or Musolini then we're anti Italian.... You see where this is going.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Would you be okay with them calling potential Taliban members "Brigham Youngs" and referring to IEDs as "Moronis"? What if they said "Joseph Smith EKIA" instead? Still good with you?

First, I'm not Mormon, so if you're trying to evoke some cultural pathos you're barking up the wrong burning bush. Second, they DON'T refer to the Taliban or IEDs using native (or any culture) terminology. They use what works by convention.

Third, as long as they aren't getting so fired up by the use of 'Geronimo' in a single combat instance that Seal Team Six indescriminately starts slaughtering Apache warriors out of habit, what is the problem?

[Themightytom]

"Apparently, having an African-American president in the White House is not enough to overturn the more than 200-year American tradition of treating and thinking of Indians as enemies of the United States," Newcomb wrote.

No no no wrong Indians Newcomb, it's the OTHER Indians, and it's not even them it's the Pakistani who are now the enemies of America.

Is it really appropriate to try to figure out how to carve out a niche in current events like this? Apparently we are starting a new tradition in which African Americans in power are expected to champion the causes of any and all demographic perceiving itself as mistreated, because you know... they're black...and they should understand...I guess.

Or was it more, "Well Americans elected a black president so that comes with it a responsibility to cater to the whims of all minorities"?

Personally I voted for the guy because he's good, not because he's black, so in keeping with that line of reasoning, I'm calling Newcomb an asshole because he's an asshole. No disrespect to American indians, their suffering or their culture, Steven's a douche because he's a douche. He's decided to trivialize repression in order to hear the sound of his own voice.

[TheHammer]

I don't think 'political correctness' matters in military or combat situations, and we should let the guys with guns run their show however they want.

Would you be okay with them calling potential Taliban members "Brigham Youngs" and referring to IEDs as "Moronis"? What if they said "Joseph Smith EKIA" instead? Still good with you?

False analogy. None of the people you selected were ever enemies of the United States. Quite frankly, often times code words have nothing to do with the object they are code for. Want some examples? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Service_codename

[TheHammer]

Would you be okay with them calling potential Taliban members "Brigham Youngs" and referring to IEDs as "Moronis"? What if they said "Joseph Smith EKIA" instead? Still good with you?

First, I'm not Mormon, so if you're trying to evoke some cultural pathos you're barking up the wrong burning bush. Second, they DON'T refer to the Taliban or IEDs using native (or any culture) terminology. They use what works by convention.

Third, as long as they aren't getting so fired up by the use of 'Geronimo' in a single combat instance that Seal Team Six indescriminately starts slaughtering Apache warriors out of habit, what is the problem?

I'd also like to point out that Geronimo wasn't his real name anyway. It was a nickname given to him by his enemies.

[Simon_Jester]

If "Geronimo" were some kind of official code-name for Osama bin Laden that'd been in use for years, the Apache would have grounds to be ticked off: that's blackening the memory of someone they regard as a national hero by association, and it's a decision that would have to be embraced at a high level rather than a random assignment by guys on the ground who can be shrugged off as single-instance

If "Geronimo" is, as I gather to be the case, the code name for "we got bin Laden," that's nothing at all to worry about. I mean, at that point it really is just a random word that they chose and assigned arbitrary meaning to, not any attempt to equate Geronimo to bin Laden. The reason for using such words is a matter of security- finding arbitrary random words that you can use in place of easily understood phrases like "we attack at dawn," to keep an enemy listening in on your communications confused and to reduce the ambiguity of communication among those in the know.

So yeah, I think this guy is freaking out because he doesn't understand what code-words are for.

[Akhlut]

Would you be okay with them calling potential Taliban members "Brigham Youngs" and referring to IEDs as "Moronis"? What if they said "Joseph Smith EKIA" instead? Still good with you?

First, I'm not Mormon, so if you're trying to evoke some cultural pathos you're barking up the wrong burning bush. Second, they DON'T refer to the Taliban or IEDs using native (or any culture) terminology. They use what works by convention.

Third, as long as they aren't getting so fired up by the use of 'Geronimo' in a single combat instance that Seal Team Six indescriminately starts slaughtering Apache warriors out of habit, what is the problem?

My bad, but the point still stands.

I'm also leery of using any sort of potentially racially charged words in a military that has taken to using Neo-Nazis as soldiers. I'd prefer to err on the side of caution and, frankly, if they can't handle being unable to use any potentially problematic words in the course of their duties, then they're goddamn children and shouldn't be recruited anyway.

[CJvR]

Geronimo seems a fairly good code for someone who has led the US forces on a merry chase through some of the most inhospitable nasty areas on the planet, that is what the original Geronimo did with great success for many years.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I'm also leery of using any sort of potentially racially charged words in a military that has taken to using Neo-Nazis as soldiers.

That article is such a load. There's not a huge contingent of Neo-Nazis in the military, it's kind of hard to do something like that when every single unit is guaranteed to have latinos and blacks in it.

[Akhlut]

I'm also leery of using any sort of potentially racially charged words in a military that has taken to using Neo-Nazis as soldiers.

Both you and that article seem to think it's commonplace for such to happen, it's not.

It may not be commonplace, but I do not wish for such attitudes to have any sort of ability to take ground, either. Usage of racially-charged language can exacerbate the problem, and, frankly, there's no reason for it to be used either.

"Geronimo" in and of itself might not be such a word, given that it is usually used more as an exclamation than anything else and has, essentially, been nearly divorced from its origins as a person's name, much as "boycott" or "luddite" have become. Given that a lot of American Indians are rather sensitive to potential slights against them (and for good reason, too), though, I'd say there are probably perfectly good alternatives.

And, again, the US military is a professional, volunteer organization and people opting to sign up for it know they are entering an organization that puts a great deal of restrictions on personal behavior to begin with; restricting usage of language that can be problematic should not be an issue among them.

[Themightytom]

I feel like it's worth mentioning that one thing the military HAS done for the apache is make us think of



An Awesome Helicopter

[Thanas]

Definitely inappropriate. As for why, just ask yourself if the codename of "Washington" would have been appropriate or whether you would not have felt unease with that.

[Sea Skimmer]

Definitely inappropriate. As for why, just ask yourself if the codename of "Washington" would have been appropriate or whether you would not have felt unease with that.

Why the hell would anyone give a damn about Washington being used as a code name? The US military uses thousands and thousands of code names.

[Mr. Coffee]

I feel like it's worth mentioning that one thing the military HAS done for the apache is make us think of

snip image

An Awesome Helicopter

That actually sums it up. They don't mind it when American Indian names are used for naming attack helicopters then they should mind at all if we use names for codewords. It's pissy whining of the same vein as the morons bitching about Obama taking 16 hours to deliberate on giving the order to kill Osama or the people bitching about the legality of killing Osama in the first place. It's pissy whining for the sake of being a pissy whiner.

[Broomstick]

So I always thought that soldiers would yell this before going into action as a war cry.

True, although it was usually troops parachuting who were doing it. The 501st even incorporated the word "Geronimo" into their insignia. I guess it sounds more manly than yelling "MOMMMMMMY!!!!" when jumping out of an airplane. No, really, I have no knowledge of any paratrooper or skydiver yelling "Mommy" on the way down. That's a joke.

Then there are the lyrics to Down From Heaven, from the 11th Airborne Division:

Down from Heaven comes ELEVEN
and there's HELL to pay below
shout "GERONIMO" "GERONIMO".

Hit the silk and check your canopy
and take a look around
The air is full of troopers
set for battle on the ground

Till we join the stick of ANGELS
killed on Leyte and Luzon
shout "GERONIMO" "GERONIMO".

It's a gory road to glory
but we're ready here we go
shout "GERONIMO" "GERONIMO".

(And yes, that's why the Eleventh Doctor Who uses "Geronimo" as a catch phrase - the association between 11 and the name.)

Methinks, personally, someone is overly sensitive and PC, but that's just my opinion. My Other Half, who is heavily Native in ancestry, was tickled pink at the use of "Geronimo", but what does he know? He's a stinkin' Cherokee, not an Apache warrior!

I didn't get the sense OBL was labeled with that name, but the name was being used as a code word for "success". It's actually a sort of tribute to the old Indian leader who spent a lifetime succeeding at risky endeavors with long odds against him while constantly operating in enemy territory. Who, by the way, was provoked into military actions due to an unprovoked massacre of civilian members of his tribe for extra coincidence points.

So, what's the problem? A simple misunderstanding?

There are some Natives who want no one outside of Natives to use any term or word or cultural item whatsoever that had a Native origin. This would cause massive confusion as we have to give back the names of major cities like "Chicago" and the names of states like "Dakota". I guess they want to repossess all the Z. mays as well, though where they'll put it all I don't know. No more canoes or kayaks without special permission. Some folks got bent out of shape when they put Sacagawea on a dollar coin because that was somehow exploiting her.

I'd give it more credibility if the Apache tribe lodged an official complaint.