Bin Laden Raid Use Of "Geronimo" Inappropriate?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Again, the mission wasn't 'Operation: Geronimo'. It was Operation Neptune Spear. 'Geronimo' was the codeword for success in acquiring their target, 'Jackpot' the code name given to Bin Laden.

[Mr. Coffee]

This thread proves once again that no matter how fucking ridiculous a topic is, N&P will make a multipage thread out of it. I'm really starting to think half of you are only posting just so you can read your post back to yourself while smugly stroking your beard (or pretending you have a beard, whatever).

[Thanas]

Well, now the TV is reporting that the Apache tribe (as distinct form a DC bureaucrat) feels offense and is asking for an apology.

Well, OK, we should apologize for any unintentional offense. To the Apaches. Not to a flunky from the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Agreed.

Again, the mission wasn't 'Operation: Geronimo'. It was Operation Neptune Spear. 'Geronimo' was the codeword for success in acquiring their target, 'Jackpot' the code name given to Bin Laden.

Ah, ok. No objections then on my part.

[TheHammer]

Well, now the TV is reporting that the Apache tribe (as distinct form a DC bureaucrat) feels offense and is asking for an apology.

Well, OK, we should apologize for any unintentional offense. To the Apaches. Not to a flunky from the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Nah, I still say "Fuck that". When people take offense over bullshit like this it cheapens those times when real offense is intended.

Sure maybe it would be the easy thing to do to just be like "Ok we're sorry!". But I'm a big believer in keeping apologies for when they are truly warranted. Maybe we could do a back handed apology like "We're sorry for anyone who is overly sensitive and took offense to this".

[TheHammer]

Again, the mission wasn't 'Operation: Geronimo'. It was Operation Neptune Spear. 'Geronimo' was the codeword for success in acquiring their target, 'Jackpot' the code name given to Bin Laden.

Clearly "Jackpot" is a swipe at Casinos you find on Native American reservations.

[The Romulan Republic]

Am I the only one who thought of Doctor Who when they heard the code was Geronimo?

Anyway, I'm going to agree that this seems like a pretty damn minor thing to get worried about.

[Bakustra]

I think that privilege means that comparisons to Washington and other American traditional heroes don't really work all that well.

Well, now the TV is reporting that the Apache tribe (as distinct form a DC bureaucrat) feels offense and is asking for an apology.

Well, OK, we should apologize for any unintentional offense. To the Apaches. Not to a flunky from the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Nah, I still say "Fuck that". When people take offense over bullshit like this it cheapens those times when real offense is intended.

Sure maybe it would be the easy thing to do to just be like "Ok we're sorry!". But I'm a big believer in keeping apologies for when they are truly warranted. Maybe we could do a back handed apology like "We're sorry for anyone who is overly sensitive and took offense to this".

So you think that statements are only ever offensive if it is intended to be offensive? That's a real actionable standard there.

Not to mention that you're essentially dictating to the Apache what they can and cannot be offended by. I wonder if that sends the message you're going for?

Again, the mission wasn't 'Operation: Geronimo'. It was Operation Neptune Spear. 'Geronimo' was the codeword for success in acquiring their target, 'Jackpot' the code name given to Bin Laden.

Clearly "Jackpot" is a swipe at Casinos you find on Native American reservations.

Oh, man, you're so funny. What's next, a crack about alcohol? Or beads?

This thread proves once again that no matter how fucking ridiculous a topic is, N&P will make a multipage thread out of it. I'm really starting to think half of you are only posting just so you can read your post back to yourself while smugly stroking your beard (or pretending you have a beard, whatever).

Yeah this is a pretty ridiculous topic, it's not like sociologists would use this as a case study for how minority voices get neglected or anything. I mean, what we have here is Geronimo being used in a military operation, against a man who has fought the US and ran from them for years on end, much like the actual Geronimo, so in the context, it seems to be associating probably the most hated man in America with Geronimo, who is not, and should not, be considered similarly to how Bin Laden is today. So the Apache said that, seeing as Geronimo is a pretty heroic figure for at least some people, and at the very least remembered better, they feel that this was inappropriate.

The general response has been that this is too sensitive of a reaction, and they chose it randomly so it can't be racist, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, first, it's pretty cool that people can dictate what the Apache are not allowed to be offended by. Secondly, even if it wasn't deliberate, somebody should have noticed it and changed the name. The problem with making analogies about this is that there are no freedom fighters that can really be slotted into Geronimo's place. Most of them don't have a lot of fans in the US if they fought the US, or they're not as well-known. So I'll use a slightly broader one. Imagine if the US was sending airborne troops to try and relieve, say, a surrounded force, and called it "Operation Dien Bien Phu". Or called airdropping disaster relief "Arclight". These wouldn't have to be deliberate to be inappropriate, though not necessarily on the same level as Geronimo was.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Bakurista, check your ass. I think someone left a stick up there.

[Bakustra]

Bakurista, check your ass. I think someone left a stick up there.

What do you object to, precisely? I'm pointing out why the Apache are offended enough to protest, and the general response has been along the lines of how they can't do that. Sorry for not understanding why it's so hi-larious that people define offensiveness solely in their own terms, rendering them in the position of arbitrating what is and is not racist, particularly since the majority of people doing so are likely to be white and privileged.

[Hawkwings]

When I hear "Geronimo" I think "jump!" not "some historical figure". I'm willing to bet that most of the people associated with this operation make the same immediate connection.

There is probably some guideline out there somewhere that lists "words and phrases not appropriate to use as codewords" and prevents codenames like "Operation Kill-the-fuckers" and "Operation Barack Obama". But besides obviously improper and ridiculous names, I doubt anyone who is actually involved gives a damn what the codename is. Asking them to be super-PC about what codenames they choose is inane and useless, since it just adds more work and doesn't actually help anything. Really now, how often are the [insert minority group here] going to check the codewords and names of military operations?

[Bakustra]

When I hear "Geronimo" I think "jump!" not "some historical figure". I'm willing to bet that most of the people associated with this operation make the same immediate connection.

There is probably some guideline out there somewhere that lists "words and phrases not appropriate to use as codewords" and prevents codenames like "Operation Kill-the-fuckers" and "Operation Barack Obama". But besides obviously improper and ridiculous names, I doubt anyone who is actually involved gives a damn what the codename is. Asking them to be super-PC about what codenames they choose is inane and useless, since it just adds more work and doesn't actually help anything. Really now, how often are the [insert minority group here] going to check the codewords and names of military operations?

Maybe when it's one that's going to be splashed all over the news if it succeeds? Maybe they should, you know, be willing to apologize if they happen to offend people? Maybe military officers, who I'm pretty sure study Geronimo in officer training, and pick code words, might recognize the similarities and make discreet suggestions or changes?

I mean, if it had been "Sitting Bull" or "Crazy Horse" used, would it still be "super-PC" or "ridiculous" that people complain and feel that they were inappropriate? (Assuming you know the story of how those two men died.)

[Broomstick]

Also assuming the Lakota would take offense at the use - because we can't assume that. The Native groups aren't homogeneous and what offends one group won't offend another. In fact, you can't even make people happy what to call them - some groups what "Native American", some want "First Nations", some are fine with "Indian" or "American Indian", and some want you to use a specific name for their tribe.

Geronimo was an Apache, and if anyone has a claim to his name or image it would be them. Not that he is entirely loved and admired by them - he caused quite a few problems for the tribe as well as helping them. I may not have been offended at the use but theirs is a different culture. It really doesn't cost me anything to apologize if there's been inadvertent offense. International relations might be a lot smoother if more people learned to say "excuse me, didn't mean to upset you, I'll be more careful in the future".

[Mr. Coffee]

This thread proves once again that no matter how fucking ridiculous a topic is, N&P will make a multipage thread out of it. I'm really starting to think half of you are only posting just so you can read your post back to yourself while smugly stroking your beard (or pretending you have a beard, whatever).

Yeah this is a pretty ridiculous topic, it's not like sociologists would use this as a case study for how minority voices get neglected or anything. I mean, what we have here is Geronimo being used in a military operation, against a man who has fought the US and ran from them for years on end, much like the actual Geronimo, so in the context, it seems to be associating probably the most hated man in America with Geronimo, who is not, and should not, be considered similarly to how Bin Laden is today. So the Apache said that, seeing as Geronimo is a pretty heroic figure for at least some people, and at the very least remembered better, they feel that this was inappropriate.

The general response has been that this is too sensitive of a reaction, and they chose it randomly so it can't be racist, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, first, it's pretty cool that people can dictate what the Apache are not allowed to be offended by. Secondly, even if it wasn't deliberate, somebody should have noticed it and changed the name. The problem with making analogies about this is that there are no freedom fighters that can really be slotted into Geronimo's place. Most of them don't have a lot of fans in the US if they fought the US, or they're not as well-known. So I'll use a slightly broader one. Imagine if the US was sending airborne troops to try and relieve, say, a surrounded force, and called it "Operation Dien Bien Phu". Or called airdropping disaster relief "Arclight". These wouldn't have to be deliberate to be inappropriate, though not necessarily on the same level as Geronimo was.

The ironic thing is, you're one of the people I was specifically thinking of when I posted that. I am in fucking awe of how oblivious you are, dude. Like, wow... Mind is blown and ears are bleeding.

[open_sketchbook]

I'm with Bakustra on this one. It's not our place to deem whether or not people taking offense to something is justified. Check your fucking privilege, suck it up, and apologize.

[Mr. Coffee]

I'm with Bakustra on this one. It's not our place to deem whether or not people taking offense to something is justified. Check your fucking privilege, suck it up, and apologize.

Um, how about no. Seriously, a computer at the Pentagon picked the word out of an electronic hat.

[open_sketchbook]

And that word offended some people. Apologize, say we ought to have been checking, move on. Maybe make a token effort not to be a jackass about it. It costs nothing to be polite.

If nothing else, taking the moral high ground when people scream and yell deflates their arguments a bit. Ignoring them gives them something more to yell about.

[Mr. Coffee]

And that word offended some people. Apologize, say we ought to have been checking, move on. Maybe make a token effort not to be a jackass about it.

How in the unholy blue fuck is using a name as a code word for a success offensive. Oh, right, it's not and this whole thing just reeks of attention whoring. Besides, if we went around making sure we didn't offend everyone we'd never get a fucking thing done.

Next you're going to tell me we should apologize to the 8th planet in our solar system for using it's name as half of the mission's code name....

[open_sketchbook]

Fuck dude, you don't actually have to care about offending people beforehand. That's a waste of effort and just makes everyone tense about it. Apologizing to somebody if they claim to be offended after the fact is a different story. It costs nothing and makes them look like jackasses if they continue to bitch. You shut down attention whores by taking away the thing they are using to gain attention. If you don't take action, they won't stop bitching.

[Mr. Coffee]

Ignoring them works just as well and it doesn't involve implying that we did anything wrong in the first place. They don't bitch when we use their tribe's name to name a fucking attack helicopter and they don't seem to mind it when half the 82nd Airborne screams "Geronimo" when they jump out of an aircraft, so them bitching about using "Geronimo" as a code word for a successful missions. Fuck 'em.

[Bakustra]

The ironic thing is, you're one of the people I was specifically thinking of when I posted that. I am in fucking awe of how oblivious you are, dude. Like, wow... Mind is blown and ears are bleeding.

That's not really ironic, since I was fully aware that you have contempt for any discussion that doesn't fall into your personal bounds of what is important or not. I, meanwhile, am not in awe at all, because I guess I should have expected you to firmly ignore anything I posted. What's odd (well, not really, I expected it to be honest, this is pretty much how any discussion of institutional discrimination or unintentional offense goes) is that you've started discussing something so "worthless", acting exactly like how I pointed out people were acting, refusing to acknowledge or even dispute connotations or context.

[Akhlut]

When I hear "Geronimo" I think "jump!" not "some historical figure". I'm willing to bet that most of the people associated with this operation make the same immediate connection.

My guess is that the Apache think "historical figure" first.

There is probably some guideline out there somewhere that lists "words and phrases not appropriate to use as codewords" and prevents codenames like "Operation Kill-the-fuckers" and "Operation Barack Obama". But besides obviously improper and ridiculous names, I doubt anyone who is actually involved gives a damn what the codename is. Asking them to be super-PC about what codenames they choose is inane and useless, since it just adds more work and doesn't actually help anything. Really now, how often are the [insert minority group here] going to check the codewords and names of military operations?

If they're chosen randomly through computer, as Mr. Coffee suggested, then simply remove potentially offensive terms from the database. I'm assuming that's why words like "fuckers" or "queef" don't appear in operations names.


And just for clarity's sake and a preemptive move to stop anyone's complaints: as I said on page 1, I think several people misunderstood that Geronimo was being used as the code word for a success, not a reference to OBL, I simply think that usage of language that could be a problem should simply be avoided and alternative language should be used instead.

[TheHammer]

I think that privilege means that comparisons to Washington and other American traditional heroes don't really work all that well.

DIPSHIT, Get this through your head. Just because Geronimo was used as a codeword doesn't mean that it was using him as a comparison to Bin Laden. And as many people pointed out, if you didn't fucking comprehend what you were reading, those of us "tradional americans" have had no problem had they used "Washington" or "Jefferson" or "Kennedy" or "Britney Spears" to denote the success of the mission.

Well, now the TV is reporting that the Apache tribe (as distinct form a DC bureaucrat) feels offense and is asking for an apology.

Well, OK, we should apologize for any unintentional offense. To the Apaches. Not to a flunky from the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Nah, I still say "Fuck that". When people take offense over bullshit like this it cheapens those times when real offense is intended.

Sure maybe it would be the easy thing to do to just be like "Ok we're sorry!". But I'm a big believer in keeping apologies for when they are truly warranted. Maybe we could do a back handed apology like "We're sorry for anyone who is overly sensitive and took offense to this".

So you think that statements are only ever offensive if it is intended to be offensive? That's a real actionable standard there.

Not to mention that you're essentially dictating to the Apache what they can and cannot be offended by. I wonder if that sends the message you're going for?

What I AM saying is that apologizing for things LIKE this cheapens apologies for REAL offenses.

If someone is out to find something to be offended about, chances are they will succeed. Although, I also find it highly likely that most of them are only offended because they were told that they "should be offended" by morons such as yourself.

Again, the mission wasn't 'Operation: Geronimo'. It was Operation Neptune Spear. 'Geronimo' was the codeword for success in acquiring their target, 'Jackpot' the code name given to Bin Laden.

Clearly "Jackpot" is a swipe at Casinos you find on Native American reservations.

Oh, man, you're so funny. What's next, a crack about alcohol? Or beads?

You're an idiot.

This thread proves once again that no matter how fucking ridiculous a topic is, N&P will make a multipage thread out of it. I'm really starting to think half of you are only posting just so you can read your post back to yourself while smugly stroking your beard (or pretending you have a beard, whatever).

Yeah this is a pretty ridiculous topic, it's not like sociologists would use this as a case study for how minority voices get neglected or anything. I mean, what we have here is Geronimo being used in a military operation, against a man who has fought the US and ran from them for years on end, much like the actual Geronimo, so in the context, it seems to be associating probably the most hated man in America with Geronimo, who is not, and should not, be considered similarly to how Bin Laden is today. So the Apache said that, seeing as Geronimo is a pretty heroic figure for at least some people, and at the very least remembered better, they feel that this was inappropriate.

No one in the government drew comparisons between Geronimo to Bin Laden. No one in the media drew comparions between Geronimo and Bin Laden. And as has been pointed out, "Geronimo" wasn't the code word for Bin Laden - It was the code word for success. This is entirely a manufactured situation done to drum up media attention.

The general response has been that this is too sensitive of a reaction, and they chose it randomly so it can't be racist, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, first, it's pretty cool that people can dictate what the Apache are not allowed to be offended by. Secondly, even if it wasn't deliberate, somebody should have noticed it and changed the name. The problem with making analogies about this is that there are no freedom fighters that can really be slotted into Geronimo's place. Most of them don't have a lot of fans in the US if they fought the US, or they're not as well-known. So I'll use a slightly broader one. Imagine if the US was sending airborne troops to try and relieve, say, a surrounded force, and called it "Operation Dien Bien Phu". Or called airdropping disaster relief "Arclight". These wouldn't have to be deliberate to be inappropriate, though not necessarily on the same level as Geronimo was.

You know what? I could again point out numerous examples of how code words have nothing whatsoever to do with the object to which they are assigned. But you'd just ignore them, so I'll just finish by saying "You're an idiot" and move on.

[Zed]

Question: why do you need a code word for "success"?

[Akhlut]

Question: why do you need a code word for "success"?

For much the same reason you need code words to begin with. Except for obvious things like this, a code word for success and another for failure help obscure to your enemies what your objectives are. Was the operation of my enemy trying to blow up my dam, or did they fail with their objectives and then blow up the dam as a contingency? If all I hear on my radio is "Geronimo" or "Rooster" or "Fozzie Bear," well, I have no damn idea what's going on with their operation at the moment, even if there are obvious things going on around me, such as my dam being blown all to hell and back.

[Mr. Coffee]

That's not really ironic, since I was fully aware that you have contempt for any discussion that doesn't fall into your personal bounds of what is important or not. I, meanwhile, am not in awe at all, because I guess I should have expected you to firmly ignore anything I posted.

Could you be any more of a pompous ass, Bakustra? Seriously, crank it till you hit eleven, man.

What's odd (well, not really, I expected it to be honest, this is pretty much how any discussion of institutional discrimination or unintentional offense goes) is that you've started discussing something so "worthless", acting exactly like how I pointed out people were acting, refusing to acknowledge or even dispute connotations or context.

Yeah, that usually happens when I see someone being a socksniffing retard about something. What clued me onto that was the guy agreed with you, which automatically means he's probably not that bright as far as this thread's concerned. No matter, I'm sure you'll go back to making tl;dr posts full of fresh stupid for other to latch onto.