Well Done Everyone, that should put paid to the silly idea of electoral reform for a good fifty years...The BBC wrote: Vote 2011: UK rejects alternative vote
AV referendum count It was clear early on that the No campaign were heading for victory
The UK has voted overwhelmingly to reject changing the way MPs are elected - dealing a bitter blow to Nick Clegg on top of heavy Lib Dem poll losses.
Officials say 19.1m people voted in the second UK-wide referendum in history - a higher than expected turnout of 41%.
With votes still being counted, the No campaign is on course to get 69%.
It comes as the Lib Dems suffered a rout in English local elections - and the SNP scored an historic victory in the Scottish Parliament poll.
Alex Salmond's party will form a majority government - humbling Labour in one of its traditional heartlands and paving the way for a referendum on Scottish independence.
'Clear result'
Labour made significant gains in town halls in the north of England and in the Welsh assembly elections, it fell just short of an absolute majority.
Labour also held Leicester South in a Parliamentary by-election with an increased majority, although the Lib Dems hung on to second place. Sir Peter Soulsby, whose decision to stand down triggered the contest, won the contest to be Leicester mayor.
Continue reading the main story
image of Ross Hawkins Ross Hawkins Political correspondent, BBC News
A debate that was often about the complexity of electoral systems ended in the simplest of results.
The No campaign won, overwhelmingly.
The rush to attribute blame, or grab the credit for that result, begins here.
Those who favoured the Yes campaign will argue they were defeated by the Prime Minister's campaigning power, a largely hostile press and a tough opposing campaign.
Those who backed a No vote will say they won the argument for the merits of the status quo, and persuaded people the alternative vote was complex and unnecessary.
The voters, of course, needed only to mark crosses on ballot papers. They did not have to explain their reasoning.
So campaigners who devoted months of their lives to this argument will never know what difference, if any, they made to the result.
The Conservatives managed to make significant gains too - with their Lib Dem coalition partners apparently bearing the brunt of public anger over spending cuts at English local elections.
And there was a double blow for Lib Dem leader and deputy prime minister Nick Clegg - who saw his dream of ditching Britain's first-past-the-post electoral system comprehensively dashed.
Mr Clegg said: "I wish I could say this was a photo finish but it isn't, the result is very clear. I'm a passionate supporter of political reform but when the answer is as clear as this, you have got to accept it."
"This is a bitter blow for all those people, like me, who believe in the need for political reform."
Counting is likely to continue in the AV referendum for some time - but more than 9,873,000 No votes have already been counted - the 50% threshold after which the Yes campaign cannot win.
The official result will not be announced until all results have been declared.
'Resounding answer'
Mr Cameron said voters' rejection of AV was "clear and resounding"
Labour leader Ed Miliband - who also backed AV, while many of his own party did not - said he was "disappointed" but the people had "spoken clearly and it's a verdict I accept".
But David Cameron, whose Conservative Party campaigned to keep first-past-the-post, said the referendum had delivered a "resounding answer that settles the question" over electoral change and people now wanted the government to get on with governing in the national interest.
So far more than 400 areas of the UK have voted No, while only 10 have voted Yes - six of which are in London.
The director of the No campaign, Matthew Elliott, said he had been "astonished" at the scale of the No victory: "I personally believe that this result will settle the debate over changing our electoral system for the next generation."
'Redouble efforts'
Mr Clegg told the BBC the Lib Dems were facing "the brunt of the blame" for coalition spending cuts, adding that, for some voters, they were bringing out "memories of things under Thatcher".
He promised to "redouble our efforts" and "get up and dust ourselves down".
Salmond hails 'trust' by Scottish voters
BBC political editor Nick Robinson said the order had gone out from Conservative HQ that Tories, who campaigned against their Lib Dem coalition partners over AV, should not be seen gloating.
But he said while there was no serious talk about challenging Mr Clegg's leadership, Mr Clegg was expected to put up more of a fight against his Conservative colleagues so there would be more difficult months ahead for the coalition.
The Lib Dems have lost almost half their councillors whose seats were up for grabs but the Conservatives, who already controlled more councils than all the other parties put together, have increased their number of councillors and gained control of two councils.
In Northern Ireland, The DUP and Sinn Fein are expected to remain the biggest parties in the Northern Ireland Assembly, but there has been controversy over the system for counting votes.
The SNP's victory in Scotland is the first time any party has achieved a majority since the 129-seat Scottish Parliament was established in 1999.
Scottish Labour leader Iain Gray said he would stand down in the autumn.
In Wales, Labour won 30 assembly seats, one short of the 31 needed to gain an overall majority.
The Conservatives made gains, but Plaid Cymru and the Lib Dems suffered losses.
UK Says No To AV
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UK Says No To AV
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Re: UK Says No To AV
At the very least, It's a resounding victory one way or another, the No side clearly won. No very close call to quibble over.
You can't argue with the will of the people.
EDIT: I'm geussing you voted "Yes" then Crazedwraith?
You can't argue with the will of the people.
EDIT: I'm geussing you voted "Yes" then Crazedwraith?
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Re: UK Says No To AV
Yes, I did vote though to be fair it was not so much because I was convinced about AV, but that I knew if it failed our chances of getting actual proper democracy in the form of Proportional Representation were zilch.
Did you vote at all EF?
Did you vote at all EF?
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Re: UK Says No To AV
Yup, I voted. I wasn't convinced by AV at all, and whilst I think proportional representation is the ideal, AV wasn't the way to get there. And I think we've got enough other shite to worry about right now.
If nothing else, I considered it my civic duty to vote. That was the whole point of the thing after all, the Yes campaign "Make sure your voice is heard!" Fine. I did. And it was no.
If nothing else, I considered it my civic duty to vote. That was the whole point of the thing after all, the Yes campaign "Make sure your voice is heard!" Fine. I did. And it was no.
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Re: UK Says No To AV
So in the end, Nick Clegg gets absolutely nothing for partnering with the Tories while the Lib-Dems are catching all the blame for the austerity budget. Talk about making a crap deal all those months ago.
As I said last year in the UK Elections thread:
As I said last year in the UK Elections thread:
The cynical view of this development:
A BBC analyst who appeared on the Diane Rehm Show on NPR, I believe, opined that the party which would win this election would actually be the losers politically. They're the ones who are going to have to impose severe austerity measures to cut down Britain's deficits, which will mean deep cuts in the public services sector and the whole range of social welfare and defence spending which will not go down well with the public. The Lib-Dems are partnering with the Conservatives in the hopes of getting ballot reform passed, but the Conservatives will fight that to the death. They like the system as it is now and see no reason to change it. Neither do Labour; for all their talk of reform, it is probably the one thing they and the Conservatives can be guaranteed to agree upon if nothing else and for the same reason; that it effectively maintains a two major-party lock on parliamentary power and keeps all the minor parties more or less permanently marginalised. Why would any sane Labour or Tory leader want to give that up?
From Labour's perspective, yielding the ground to a Conservative/Lib-Dem coalition government is the best outcome they could have asked for: they get to take the full brunt of the public firestorm over the coming cuts that will have to be imposed. The Lib-Dems also get tarred with being in bed with the Tories and if they don't get ballot reform out of all this, then they made their Faustian bargain for nothing and will be politically destroyed. If the coalition falls apart, the Lib-Dems have shot their credibility for nothing to show for it, and again they are politically destroyed, while the Conservatives come off as ineffectual to deal with Britain's financial problems. And in the worst case scenario, if a Greek-style crash hits Britain with the Conservative/Lib-Dem coalition in power, they're going to get sucked into the resulting abyss and wind up unelectable for a generation or longer, and once again, the Lib-Dems are destroyed. I am guessing about much of this, but from what I've observed, this sort of cynical opportunism would be the logical end of Blairite philosophy which informs much of "New Labour" strategy.
Gordon Brown's sudden and very public resignation has cut the ground from under both Nick Clegg and David Cameron. They're now forced into a shotgun marriage. So congrats to the Tories: they finally got what they wanted for thirteen years —and to the Lib-Dems for getting their first real fingerhold on national power— just as everything's about to turn to shit.
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Re: UK Says No To AV
You realise the politicians in charge are going to spin this result so its not a 'no to Av' but a 'Yes to Status Quo' They're not going to say 'Well they said no to AV we better offer them PR' They're going to say 'This proves the current system is perfect! PERFECT! Muahahahaha!' ( I paraphrase slightly)
Of course, no one's arguments were ever based on what they thought the best fairest system would, just if it will get them more seats or not.
Here's a perfect example; the results for my local council;
edit: Degan's dead on the money. Practically everyone realised the Lib Dem's were screwed when they teamed up with the Tories. Except Clegg apparently.
Of course, no one's arguments were ever based on what they thought the best fairest system would, just if it will get them more seats or not.
Here's a perfect example; the results for my local council;
See how close those Labour and 'Bollington First' Candidates got? Under the current system its all cut and dried. Under AV there's a very real chance that those candidates might have got in, instead. Depending on the Lib Dem voter's second or third preferences.CheshireEast wrote: Candidate Party Votes Share Elected
BAILEY Malcolm Labour 714 11.92% No
HAYES Peter Conservative 813 13.57% Yes
LIVESLEY William Harold Conservative 814 13.59% Yes
MILLS Tony No Party 1 575 9.60% No
NICHOLAS James Bollington First 758 12.66% No
OWEN Simon Christopher Liberal Democrats 313 5.23% No
REID Heidi Labour 778 12.99% No
SOCKETT Shirley Liberal Democrats 436 7.28% No
STOTT Amanda Bollington First 788 13.16% No
edit: Degan's dead on the money. Practically everyone realised the Lib Dem's were screwed when they teamed up with the Tories. Except Clegg apparently.
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Re: UK Says No To AV
Yeah there's absolutely zero chance we'll get PR, electoral reform won't even be brought up for the next generation, and the Lib Dems are going to crash into obscurity. AV wasn't ideal, but it was a step - now we'll see this current system persist for at least the next generation, probably longer.
And you were right Patrick, the Tories fought this to the death, the Lib Dems went in expecting a bit of help but there was no chance they were going to reform a system that benefits them. And the Lib Dems are essentially getting the blame for every single thing that the Tories do, despite being the majority, they're going to get absolutely trounced in any general election. I mean they lost 695 seats in the local elections, mostly in their strongholds as well, that's a pretty telling result.
Cameron has played this perfectly, he can heap the blame on the Lib Dems for his entire time as PM, he doesn't even need to call another election to get himself a proper majority, the Lib Dems will bend over and do whatever he wants.
And you were right Patrick, the Tories fought this to the death, the Lib Dems went in expecting a bit of help but there was no chance they were going to reform a system that benefits them. And the Lib Dems are essentially getting the blame for every single thing that the Tories do, despite being the majority, they're going to get absolutely trounced in any general election. I mean they lost 695 seats in the local elections, mostly in their strongholds as well, that's a pretty telling result.
Cameron has played this perfectly, he can heap the blame on the Lib Dems for his entire time as PM, he doesn't even need to call another election to get himself a proper majority, the Lib Dems will bend over and do whatever he wants.
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Re: UK Says No To AV
I don't think it's at all fair to say all the Lib Dems were getting out of it was electoral reform. That would have been a shitty deal even with a referendum win.Patrick Degan wrote:So in the end, Nick Clegg gets absolutely nothing for partnering with the Tories while the Lib-Dems are catching all the blame for the austerity budget. Talk about making a crap deal all those months ago.
Offhand I can think of some fairly major Lib Dem policies being implemented because of the coalition.
-Raising of the threshold for paying income tax which is rather good for the lowest earners.
-Increased attention to rehabilitation in prisons.
-Pupil premium for schools (being given more money for having more deprived students basically).
-Commitment to meeting the 0.7% of GDP for international aid.
-Reform of the House of Lords.
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Re: UK Says No To AV
Ok, I'd not actually heard of any of those things and judging the results of local elections... neither has anyone else. I admit I don't keep myself as up to date with politics as I should but that probably makes me a good example of the average uninformed ignorant voter.
People just don't know about the good that the Lib Dems have accomplished, everyone else screaming 'Broken Promises!' at their top of their lungs is an effective sledge hammer against them.
People just don't know about the good that the Lib Dems have accomplished, everyone else screaming 'Broken Promises!' at their top of their lungs is an effective sledge hammer against them.
Re: UK Says No To AV
Absolutely. The problem is media narrative. You can go on about it all you want, but if the media has decided the story is that the Lib Dems have been unwillingly dragged into Conservative policy then that's what the story will be. It's probably partly the fault of the party for putting too much emphasis on tuition fees and constitutional reform compared to their many other worthy policies in the past too. I can remember dubiously looking over the coalition agreement and being surprised at just how much we actually got.Crazedwraith wrote:Ok, I'd not actually heard of any of those things and judging the results of local elections... neither has anyone else. I admit I don't keep myself as up to date with politics as I should but that probably makes me a good example of the average uninformed ignorant voter.
People just don't know about the good that the Lib Dems have accomplished, everyone else screaming 'Broken Promises!' at their top of their lungs is an effective sledge hammer against them.
Re: UK Says No To AV
The history of referendums shows that the 'NO' position has an innate advantage. When the government opposes it then almost no chance at all. Also they can be sabotaged by how they are worded. For instance, when Australia had its vote to decide whether to be a republic, even though a majority favoured being a republic, the majority vote in the refereddum was no, because John Howard cleverly split the pro-republic position; by instead of phrasing the question as a choice between two opposite positions he put the status quo against a specific model of republicanism that didn't have majority support. He paid attention to 'Yes, Prime Minister'!
With the British AV referendum, when the people have a choice between a simple system they are familiar with as against a more complex (in theory, not particularly so in practise) method, well they are apt to choose the more comfortable position even before any arguments are put for the two cases.
With the British AV referendum, when the people have a choice between a simple system they are familiar with as against a more complex (in theory, not particularly so in practise) method, well they are apt to choose the more comfortable position even before any arguments are put for the two cases.
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Re: UK Says No To AV
The "No to AV" public relations campaign has been more aggressive and persuasive than the pro-AV campaigners; to start with I got a couple of "No to AV" leaflets through my door, but not really anything from the pro-AV crowd that I can remember, insinuating on more hefty Tory funding behind the anti-AV movement, leading to a decisive result. Also a big, big place like London had a fairly low voter turn out of around 35%. The Tories seem to be stabbing the Lib-Dems in the back while they face alienated naive voters, which seems petty and short-sighted if the Coalition collapses in under four years.
I voted "Yes" to AV by the way.
I voted "Yes" to AV by the way.
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Re: UK Says No To AV
One columnist in the Independant had it quite nicely that that 'the yes campaign was so focussed on the new politics that they forgot just how effective the old politics are' - they didn't even meaningfully answer the slurs of the other side (£250 million!) let alone aggressively hammer the population with the fact that their MPs are already selected via AV (by their parties) and other such salient points.
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Re: UK Says No To AV
Actually, for a referendum, you have to word it specifically the way they did, because people are voting on a specific inclusion into the constitution. You can't just have them vote on something wishy-washy that could be chanced later on, because that leaves a large potential for abuse later on should lawmakers decide to craft the actual law such that while it technically agrees with the question voted on in the referendum, does so in a way that everyone disagrees with. Howard did go through with the practical side of the referendum in the "proper" way: he held a constitutional convention, the convention came up with a variety of republican models and recommended the model that would be the most compatible with our current political system, and then went through with a referendum based on the model recommended by the convention.B5B7 wrote:The history of referendums shows that the 'NO' position has an innate advantage. When the government opposes it then almost no chance at all. Also they can be sabotaged by how they are worded. For instance, when Australia had its vote to decide whether to be a republic, even though a majority favoured being a republic, the majority vote in the refereddum was no, because John Howard cleverly split the pro-republic position; by instead of phrasing the question as a choice between two opposite positions he put the status quo against a specific model of republicanism that didn't have majority support. He paid attention to 'Yes, Prime Minister'!]
What Howard did in order to split the republican vote was two-fold: first of all, he declined to initially hold a plebiscite prior to the referendum, which he could have used to create a commitment to some kind of republic, with the exact form to be decided during a referendum at a later date. Had he done so, I believe it would have been much easier to convince people to vote for the same republican system, since people would feel as though they were being consulted more on the process. Secondly, it was Howard who had the ability to delegate who exactly worked on both the pro- and anti-republican campaigns, and this is where his true genius lay. The "Yes" campaign was led by Malcolm Turnbull who, while being a strong proponent of a Republic, is really not that great at politics, while the "No" campaign had strong representatives from two classes of "No" campaigners: the Monarchists and the "Directly elected President or nothing" crowd. By making both groups of "No" campaigners to work together, he forced them to come up with a coherent and consistent message, which helped their cause immensely. By contrast, the "Yes" campaign was a complete mess.
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Re: UK Says No To AV
Seconded, I had 2 different leaflets in the post, which since it was per person in the household ment we got 6 over all, and seen a number of anti-AV stuff elsewhere, but I never saw anything pro-AV at all.Big Orange wrote:The "No to AV" public relations campaign has been more aggressive and persuasive than the pro-AV campaigners; to start with I got a couple of "No to AV" leaflets through my door, but not really anything from the pro-AV crowd that I can remember, insinuating on more hefty Tory funding behind the anti-AV movement, leading to a decisive result. Also a big, big place like London had a fairly low voter turn out of around 35%. The Tories seem to be stabbing the Lib-Dems in the back while they face alienated naive voters, which seems petty and short-sighted if the Coalition collapses in under four years.
I voted "Yes" to AV by the way.
Also the anti-AV leaflets did seem to be very much in the style of lowest common denominator, tabloid attention grabbing style, full of stuff like "The money spent on the reform would pay for 20 schools, be outraged at this Raaaarrrr!". Obviously not exact phrasing but that sort of thing.
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Re: UK Says No To AV
I love all of the various excuses being paraded by our 'progressive majority': the population voted No because of a 'dirty campaign' [because the Lib Dems have no track record of conducting dirty campaigns. They are so virtuous!]; the population voted No to give Nick Clegg a kicking [note: no one gives a shit about the deputy PM and leader of a minor party]; the population voted No because AV didn't go far enough and instead people want PR [this is my personal favourite].
The reality is, there is no progressive majority in this country. We did not need AV. No one wanted AV [apart from the 'progressives'] and this is why 68% of people said no to a vote that they felt was forced upon them, unnecessarily, by a minor party that 1/7 voters rejected in the most recent GE.
To quote Guido:
The British people are sceptical about “progressives”, their language and their disconnection from the reality of their lives. The “progressive” idea that switching to the Alternative Vote was important to ordinary people, who are not on the whole interested in politics, was delusional. There is no untapped progressive majority outside the media and political elites.
Link.
The reality is, there is no progressive majority in this country. We did not need AV. No one wanted AV [apart from the 'progressives'] and this is why 68% of people said no to a vote that they felt was forced upon them, unnecessarily, by a minor party that 1/7 voters rejected in the most recent GE.
To quote Guido:
The British people are sceptical about “progressives”, their language and their disconnection from the reality of their lives. The “progressive” idea that switching to the Alternative Vote was important to ordinary people, who are not on the whole interested in politics, was delusional. There is no untapped progressive majority outside the media and political elites.
Link.
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Re: UK Says No To AV
All I've seen around here were idiots parroting the lines from various tabloids and the Anti-AV leaflets, unthinkingly accepting them as God's truth. No surprise they voted 'No'.
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Re: UK Says No To AV
AV was a terrible idea and I am pleased it has being solidly rejected by the electorate....70% against is pretty conclusive I cant see how anyone can moan about it.
Even people who classed themselves as 'progressive' should have oppose this and kept the powder dry for geniune constitutional reforms.
Even people who classed themselves as 'progressive' should have oppose this and kept the powder dry for geniune constitutional reforms.
Re: UK Says No To AV
And when was the last time we had those happen in this country without the government being forced into it almost literally at gunpoint?TC27 wrote:Even people who classed themselves as 'progressive' should have oppose this and kept the powder dry for geniune constitutional reforms.
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Re: UK Says No To AV
Really? You don't see how anyone can moan about it? Are you fucking shitting me? You have a choice between vote splitting and non-vote splitting and you can't figure out why people would choose non-vote splitting?TC27 wrote:AV was a terrible idea and I am pleased it has being solidly rejected by the electorate....70% against is pretty conclusive I cant see how anyone can moan about it.
Even people who classed themselves as 'progressive' should have oppose this and kept the powder dry for geniune constitutional reforms.
And if your goal is Proportional Representation, that is going to be a lot harder with first-past-the-post since the two main parties don't want reform. IRV wasn't the best solution, but if you want reform, you need to take baby steps.
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Re: UK Says No To AV
Indeed, it seems some people haven't heard of the Fabian strategy. Gradual improvement is far easier to implement than all or nothing reform.blahface wrote:Really? You don't see how anyone can moan about it? Are you fucking shitting me? You have a choice between vote splitting and non-vote splitting and you can't figure out why people would choose non-vote splitting?TC27 wrote:AV was a terrible idea and I am pleased it has being solidly rejected by the electorate....70% against is pretty conclusive I cant see how anyone can moan about it.
Even people who classed themselves as 'progressive' should have oppose this and kept the powder dry for geniune constitutional reforms.
And if your goal is Proportional Representation, that is going to be a lot harder with first-past-the-post since the two main parties don't want reform. IRV wasn't the best solution, but if you want reform, you need to take baby steps.
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Re: UK Says No To AV
He's talking about the fact the population soundly rejected reform by a large margin, not the strength or weakness of any proposed electoral system.You don't see how anyone can moan about it?
The last government brought in wide reaching changes to the upper house and the devolved parliaments, this government seems likely to go even further under lib dem and nationalist pressure.And when was the last time we had those happen in this country without the government being forced into it almost literally at gunpoint?
A very big if, nothing indicates any relevant percentage of the population has any taste for completely redoing the entire political system that a true PR system would need.And if your goal is Proportional Representation
We don’t have much of a history of referendums but the majority have passed,The history of referendums shows that the 'NO' position has an innate advantage.
• Northern Ireland sovereignty referendum,(yes)
• United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum, 1975(yes)
• Scottish devolution referendum, 1979, (small majority voted yes, but fell short of the 40% threshold required to enact devolution)
• Welsh devolution referendum, 1979, (no)
• Scottish devolution referendum, 1997, Two questions: On whether there should be a Scottish Parliament (yes); On whether a Scottish Parliament should have tax varying powers (yes)
• Welsh devolution referendum, 1997, (yes)
• Greater London Authority referendum, 1998, (yes)
• Northern Ireland Belfast Agreement referendum, 1998, (yes)
• Welsh devolution referendum, 2011 (yes)
• United Kingdom Alternative Vote referendum, 2011, 5 May 2011. (no)
Overall the 'yes' campaign was atrocious, even more than the 'no' campaign in terms of shitty arguments and lies. I voted yes but even while I was walking to the voting booth I was still undecided over the issue.
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Re: UK Says No To AV
In so far as a massive overwhelming majority have rejected the case for AV then yes. People who think AV is a 'more democractic' system than FPTP cant complain when it is rejected by the purest form of democracy in a direct plebiscite.You don't see how anyone can moan about it?
To state the obvious we are stuck in the situation whereby who-ever is in power will want the system that best suits them...Labour only seemed to suddenly see the light WRT voting reform when they werent in government with a massive majority under FTTP anymore.And if your goal is Proportional Representation, that is going to be a lot harder with first-past-the-post since the two main parties don't want reform. IRV wasn't the best solution, but if you want reform, you need to take baby steps.
Personally I see a role for PR in our system but only in a second chamber subsidary role not as the means of forming governments....I think the 'rainbow coalitions' we would get with PR general elections would be a disaster for the UK
PS I find it very ironic that many of those who want electoral reform are often the same people who blast the Lib Dems for going into coalition with the Conservatives and 'selling out' when the system they advocate is would generally lead to many more coalitions and parties horsetrading away manifesto commitments.
Re: UK Says No To AV
...including you, because I sure as heck did not see brave Lib Dem legionnaries hacking away at the elephants of the tories and labor.bobalot wrote:Indeed, it seems some people haven't heard of the Fabian strategy.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Re: UK Says No To AV
In fairness, that might actualy have lent some credence to their viewpoint. And it certainly would have been entertaining.Thanas wrote:...including you, because I sure as heck did not see brave Lib Dem legionnaries hacking away at the elephants of the tories and labor.bobalot wrote:Indeed, it seems some people haven't heard of the Fabian strategy.
Might even resolve government issues faster as well
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."
Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."
Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.