On Pakistan

[Metahive]

Buying their goods is not quite the same as making them allies and I argue that Al-Quaeda is nowhere near as threatening an enemy as Adolf Hitler's Germany so that comparison just falls flat.

[Broomstick]

Well, OK, you didn't find Osama bin Laden as threatening to you as Hitler.... but maybe you don't live in New York City? Perception counts for a lot in these matters, and if bin Laden is perceived to be a threat he will be treated as one.

As far as buying their goods not being the same thing... well, relations do affect these things. There's a reason the US bought mostly from Saudis and not from Libya, you know.

The Saudis put up with the US and bend on certain rules (such as US military women being allowed to drive in the kingdom while on duty) and the US holds its nose and overlooks some things about them - the Saudis get lots of money, the US gets lots of oil. The two countries don't like each other, but there is certainly economic incentive and common interests however distasteful you find the relationship.

Personally, I'm none too happy with it either. I also think bin Laden choose Saudi-origin hijackers on 9/11 hoping to disrupt US/Saudi relations, or even spark a war between the two nations. At least the US didn't rise to that bait. The most important point was not that the majority of 9/11 hijackers were born in Saudi Arabia, it's that they were members of Al Qaeda. Or would you have preferred a war between KSA and US while bin Laden ran free to stir up more trouble?

Likewise, I'm sure bin Laden was happy to try to throw a wrench in the works between Pakistan and the US, even as he was leaning on Pakistani protection - he, like many, was playing both ends.

[K. A. Pital]

If the KSA was destroyed instead of Iraq, maybe that'd be a more worthwhile case - the House of Saud is a known sponsor of terrorism. Likewise, the ISI is a known sponsor of islamist terrorism.

On the other hand, Iraq was not a sponsor of Islamic terrorism. So from the "threat" viewpoint, it was rational to destroy the House of Saud (they don't have nuclear weapons, at least) to eliminate a real sponsor-of-terrorism threat.

[hongi]

How big is this compared to other terrorist movements?

Small. Islamic terrorism in China is a problem that gets exaggerated by the government for their own ends.

[mr friendly guy]

How big is this compared to other terrorist movements?

According to the link from Sidewinder they claim " responsibility for over 200 acts of terrorism, resulting in at least 162 deaths and over 440 injuries."

Terrorism in China

Some of the more violent acts attributed to Islamic forces occurred as recently as 2008 and 2010. Of course you won't find this given much prominence in Western News Media. Note Chinese media likes to play down the significance of these, apparently their English language reports call it terrorism, but the Chinese language ones call it only a violent act. Presumably they don't want to give the impression they don't always have full control. But generally as far as likely to succeed in their goals, the ETIM doesn't look like its got much of a chance in its separatist aspirations.

[Sidewinder]

On the other hand, Iraq was not a sponsor of Islamic terrorism.

On the contrary, Iraq under Saddam Hussein sponsored terrorism against Israel.

Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has raised the amount offered to relatives of suicide bombers from $10,000 per family to $25,000, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Wednesday.

Since Iraq upped its payments last month, 12 suicide bombers have successfully struck inside Israel, including one man who killed 25 Israelis, many of them elderly, as they sat down to a meal at a hotel to celebrate the Jewish holiday of Passover. The families of three suicide bombers said they have recently received payments of $25,000.

Palestinians say the bombers are driven by a priceless thirst for revenge, religious zeal and dreams of glory — not greed.

Mahmoud Safi, leader of a pro-Iraqi Palestinian group, the Arab Liberation Front, acknowledged that the support payments for relatives make it easier for some potential bombers to make up their minds. "Some people stop me on the street, saying if you increase the payment to $50,000 I'll do it immediately," Safi said. He also suggested such remarks were made mostly in jest.

Saddam has said the Palestinians need weapons and money instead of peace proposals and has provided payments throughout a year and a half of Israeli-Palestinian battles. "I saw on Iraqi TV President Saddam saying he will continue supporting the (uprising) even if it means selling his own clothes," said Safi.

Rumsfeld, who said earlier this week that Saddam and the Iraqi government were offering the lower amount, elaborated on the issue at a Pentagon briefing.

"It turns out that he has raised that amount and it's $25,000 per family, not $10,000 per family," Rumsfeld said.

"Here is an individual who is the head of a country, Iraq, who has proudly, publicly made a decision to go out and actively promote and finance human sacrifice for families that will have their youngsters kill innocent men, women and children," Rumsfeld said.

Though he did not say so, he appeared to refer to the current wave of suicide bombings on Israeli civilian targets.

"I am simply trying to let the people of Iraq understand what their leadership is doing, to let the people of the Middle East and the rest of the world ... know what is in fact being done to arm young people and send them out to blow up restaurants and shopping malls and pizza parlors," he said.

Rumsfeld blasted Iraq, Iran and Syria on Monday for inflaming violence in the Middle East, and said he raised the issue of Iraq on Wednesday to suggest it was important to "recognize that there is an infrastructure to terrorism."

Rumsfeld said Saddam had stated publicly the payment for families "if they're able to persuade a family to have their teen-ager strap explosives on them and go out and kill themselves and kill innocent men, women and children."

"He is pleased with his idea and is promoting it in the region," Rumsfeld said of Saddam. "It is a matter of public record."

Under the new Iraqi payscale, decided on March 12 during an Arab conference in Baghdad, the families of gunmen and others who die fighting the Israelis will still receive $10,000, while the relatives of suicide bombers will get $25,000.

Safi and two others from the Arab Liberation Front visit families in the northern West Bank and make the payments. "We go to every family and give them a check," he said. "We tell them that this is a gift from President Saddam and Iraq."

But Saddam is not the only one giving money. Charities from Saudi Arabia and Qatar — both U.S. allies — pay money to families of Palestinians killed in the fighting, including suicide bombers.

Saddam Hussein has paid out thousands of dollars to families of Palestinians killed in fighting with Israel.
Relatives of at least one suicide attacker as well as other militants and civilians gathered in a hall in Gaza City to receive cheques.

"Iraq and Palestine are in one trench. Saddam is a hero," read a banner over a picture of the Iraqi leader and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat at the ceremony.

With war looming in the Middle East, Palestinian speakers condemned the United States and Israel, which dismissed the ceremony as support for terrorism.

Saddam's payments
$10,000 per family
$25,000 for family of a suicide bomber
$35m paid since September 2000
PALF figures

One by one, at least 21 families came up to receive their cheques from the Palestinian Arab Liberation Front (PALF), a local pro-Iraq group.
A Hamas suicide bomber's family got $25,000 while the others - relatives of militants killed in fighting or civilians killed during Israeli military operations - all received $10,000 each.

Another banner in the hall described the cheques as the "blessings of Saddam Hussein" and PALF speakers extolled the Iraqi leader in fiery speeches.

"Saddam Hussein considers those who die in martyrdom attacks as people who have won the highest degree of martyrdom," said one.

The party estimated that Iraq had paid out $35m to Palestinian families since the current uprising began in September 2000.

Saddam's avowed support for the Palestinians, and his missile attacks on Israel during the Gulf War, have won him wide backing in the territories.

Saddam's 'kindness'

Israel condemned the Iraqi handouts as funding for terrorism.

"It shows that Saddam is involved in every activity that is terrorism and murderous and leads to instability in the Middle East," said Amira Oron, a spokeswoman for the Foreign Ministry.

"Saddam is the only one that has stood with us"

Tahseen Maghani
father of dead Hamas fighter

However, families at this week's ceremony said the money would be used to rebuild homes destroyed by Israel and bring up orphaned children.

"Saddam supports the families of the martyrs, not terrorism," said Ahmed Sabah, 69, whose son was killed by an Israeli missile strike in December.

"It is a shame that Arabs stand silent as America prepares to occupy Iraq."

Israel blamed Mr Sabah's son Mustafa for bomb attacks on three Israeli tanks which killed seven soldiers in 2002.

Tahseen Maghani, whose Hamas militant son Karam was killed trying to infiltrate the Jewish settlement of Netzarim, said he would use the money to plant crops and build a house.

"These are tough times for Saddam but his kindness will help us a lot," he said.

"Saddam is the only one that has stood with us."

Sabri Salama, a relative of two Palestinian teenagers killed in an Israeli air strike on Gaza in January, said America was "the chief terrorist state".

Ibrahim Zanen, a PALF spokesman, said he hoped the ceremony would not be the last.

Then there's all those Scud missiles that Iraq launched towards Israel, during the 1991 Gulf War.

[K. A. Pital]

Oh please, "during the 1991 war"? And sponsoring terrorism against Israel of all nations, is pretty much the business of everyone in the Middle East, is it not? Saddam Hussein was supporting Palestinian intifadas, but he wasn't supporting Al-Quaeda, Afghani Taliban - the ones related to terrorism in America.

[Broomstick]

True, Israel is the pariah of the Middle East, but Iraq was one of the few that actually lobbed missiles at them in recent years.

Back in '91 there were reports/rumors that the one reason the Israelis didn't retaliate was the US threatened to shoot down any Israeli airplanes headed for Iraq, and likewise threatened "strong measures" if the Israelis used missiles. Never did work on confirming if any of that was true, but it's not out of the realm of the possible.

But yes, Stas, you are correct that there is no link between Saddam Hussein and terrorism in America, however much the Bush guys wanted that to be so. Saddam did a lot of bad things to a lot of people, but attacking America directly wasn't one of them. Attacking some American allies, yes, but not the US itself.

[Captain Seafort]

But yes, Stas, you are correct that there is no link between Saddam Hussein and terrorism in America, however much the Bush guys wanted that to be so. Saddam did a lot of bad things to a lot of people, but attacking America directly wasn't one of them. Attacking some American allies, yes, but not the US itself.

Not in the US, but he did try to murder a former US President.

[Broomstick]

Yes, but did not succeed. If he had, that would have been a significant difference. Also a first I think - all our other assassinations were internal.