Bin Laden Raid Use Of "Geronimo" Inappropriate?

[Inkanta]

Suppose I should clarify that the "educators" from those sites are teachers, professors, librarians, authors, and leaders from many nations including the Lakotas, Haudenosaunne, Toas, Dine, and of many others that existed on this side of the planet prior to the arrival of post-Columbus European-Americans. Sure, no one--a member of a given nation or non-member--can speak for all, but I find reading materials/sites from credible sites that offer a variety of voices, useful. How do you know if a site is credible. you might ask? Well, there is a plethroa of advice out there, but that which is offered by Cornell U is pretty spot on, imho. http://olinuris.library.cornell.edu/ref ... beval.html.

[Chi'Tak]

Once again a Native American is simply one who has been born here. Native American does not necessarily mean indigenous people, on the other hand American Indian does mean indigenous people, and as one of those indigenous people the idea that I am less of a person because I identify myself as an American Indian is ludicrous and is patiently laughable. PC turns a normal human being into a driveling politician and that is bullshit.

"Native American" is used extensively to mean an aboriginal person. Yes, if you want to tease out the proper meaning of that expression it would include any person born an American citizen, but that just isn't how it's used for the most part.

The issue is in the why the new moniker came about and when it became commonplace for some to use. Heavens we must not offend someone they might get upset and or cry. More PC bullshit. The new name came to be because someone was offended about and made a great deal of noise about the fact that the name came from a explorer who did not know where he was and had assumed that he had circumnavigated the world and had landed in the vicinity of the Indian sub continent. Thus we have the West Indies and the indigenous peoples became Indians. Oh how cruel and inhumane, the indignity of it all. I know lets come up with a new name so that people can have something to complain about, no mater how useless and inane..

I grew up as an American Indian, as did my brothers, My Dad did as well, and so did his mother, my Grandma (100% Blackfeet). I get my Cherokee side from my fathers paternal tree. My and my fathers direct family helped found this country, my family (Spivey) has been Native Americans since 1680. I refuse to relabel myself because some moron who has no common (or uncommon) sense gets his feelings hurt and has to cry about it.

[SVPD]

:::::

Please, it doesn't make you Hitler, at most, it might make you insensitive. If the Apaches have their panties in a twist over this it's simple enough to say, alright, in the future we won't use Geronimo as a code word. My god, it's not like anyone's nuts are going to fall off if we do that. There are lots of other words and names we could use instead.

That's quite true. By the same token, the situation and history of the Apache people is not likely to be significantly improved by an apology over an entirely trivial matter.

When you are, or have been, an oppressed minority, especially in a nation where there is at least some official recognition of past wrongs and the Army is not busily engaging in pogroms, it might be wiser to not take offense, especially public offense, at the completely trivial. Quite frankly, the impression this gives is that either A) the situation of American Indians is not that bad (which is not the case) or B) that the American Indians in question are not addressing actual issues so much as seeking cheap political advantage.

Neither of those may be the case, but it certainly gives that impression, and if you hold the moral high ground as an oppressed minority, you certainly should not sacrifice that by appearing to (much less actually) seek cheap political advantage. You've got a lot of poor people whose lives could be improved meaningfully, and this complaint tends to make other complaints by Apaches and other American Indians appear less valid than they really are.

[Losonti Tokash]

That's great. I don't like being called an Indian. No one else I know does, either. I don't get mad about it, though, because hey, people are stupid/ignorant and don't know better. Seems to me like you're the one wanting us to relabel ourselves so you can pretend it's the 50s again.

[Chi'Tak]

That's great. I don't like being called an Indian. No one else I know does, either. I don't get mad about it, though, because hey, people are stupid/ignorant and don't know better. Seems to me like you're the one wanting us to relabel ourselves so you can pretend it's the 50s again.

Why does it offend you, what is there that is unspoken in the word?

I don't particularly care about it, I just think it is rather funny that such a big deal is made about it. My Grandma told me that it wasn't an Indian that came up with the whole Native American vs American Indian idea either, she thought that that in itself was hilarious. More meddling by the white man as she put it. In some things I think we would be better off if the morals and politeness of the 50s never left. People seldom bother me though comes with the territory of being 6 ft and 220 lbs and carrying myself as some combat vets tend to do, I never look for trouble and most times it just seems to avoid me.

You can obviously label your self how ever you want to, I would not dream to even think about telling someone else how to label themselves, just do not get upset because some could not care less. Goes completely against my heart felt Libertarian beliefs and the way I live to tell anyone how to do anything or live anyway other that the way they want to.

[Broomstick]

:::::

Please, it doesn't make you Hitler, at most, it might make you insensitive. If the Apaches have their panties in a twist over this it's simple enough to say, alright, in the future we won't use Geronimo as a code word. My god, it's not like anyone's nuts are going to fall off if we do that. There are lots of other words and names we could use instead.

That's quite true. By the same token, the situation and history of the Apache people is not likely to be significantly improved by an apology over an entirely trivial matter.

I also have to wonder if this is to some extent overblown thanks to the media. I mean, if the Apache said "Hey, we aren't happy to have the name Geronimo associated with this operation in any way, could you please not do that in the future? Thanks." that hardly seems a huge deal - but let the press run with it and who knows where it ends up?

[SVPD]

Evidently it ends up in a 5-page thread on an internet forum that probably neither the Apaches nor the people being asked for the apology are paying much attention to.

[DudeGuyMan]

Can we lock a bunch of tribal leaders in a conference hall somewhere and just keep shipping in pizza and assorted forms of caffeine until they hammer out what everyone else should call them? Maybe a word from one of their own languages that everyone can compromise on? That would be nice and tasteful. I promise to call them by whatever they come up with, and properly look down on anyone who refuses to use it.

[SCRawl]

I listened to the "60 Minutes" podcast last night, and while being interviewed President Obama said that "Geronimo" was the name for OBL in this operation, not a code for him being dead. It's possible that he misspoke, but that's a pretty clear refutation of earlier reports.

OBAMA: There was a point before folks had left, before we had gotten everybody back on the helicopter and were flying back to base, where they said Geronimo has been killed. And Geronimo was the code name for bin Laden. And now obviously at that point these guys were operating in the dark with all kinds of stuff going on so everybody was cautious. But at that point cautiously optimistic.

[Thanas]

If that is true, the people have an even stronger reason to demand an apology.

[Thanas]

Ghetto edit:

And I do agree with Chomsky as well. His words (earlier linked to in this thread) are worth reading.

[Broomstick]

Can we lock a bunch of tribal leaders in a conference hall somewhere and just keep shipping in pizza and assorted forms of caffeine until they hammer out what everyone else should call them? Maybe a word from one of their own languages that everyone can compromise on? That would be nice and tasteful. I promise to call them by whatever they come up with, and properly look down on anyone who refuses to use it.

I doubt that would work - you're talking about different nations, really - different cultures and ethnicities, some of which have split into multiple groups and with both long standing alliances and enemies. In fact, a lot of their names for their near neighbors can be downright insulting.

Though the Canadian use of First Nations has some appeal. They were, after all, there first, or at least before the current crowd running the place. Of course, as soon as you mention that some joker will stand up, say they immigrated in from Asia and probably displaced even earlier inhabitants. Which is likely true (in some cases, we even have evidence of multiple replacing of cultures in the same spot), but I doubt "Second Nations" will ever catch on.

[Civil War Man]

I'm going to add myself to the pro-apology crowd here. All that is being asked for is a, "Sorry, we did not mean to offend you." Nobody is asking for reparations. Nobody loses anything. Nobody gains anything, apart from one side maybe getting a warm fuzzy feeling that the other is actually showing a small amount of respect for once. It is pretty much a completely neutral gesture.

A lot of the responses have basically boiled down to saying that apologizing is a meaningless gesture so the government shouldn't have to do it, but it's no more meaningless than getting in a frothing rage and throwing up a lot of tough guy bullshit simply to try to avoid doing something you think is meaningless.

Especially since the apology would be true. Assigning the code word Geronimo, regardless of whether it was assigned to the operation, signaling the success of the operation, or Bin Laden himself, was not done because someone felt like pissing off the Apaches. There was no intent to offend, and so there is nothing lost by acknowledging that it made people uncomfortable, apologizing for causing the discomfort, and clarifying that causing it was completely unintentional.

Seriously, I am not a very empathetic person, but I can see why some people wouldn't like the association even if it was chosen by picking a name out of a hat.

[Hawkwings]

Posted in the other thread, but reposting for relevance.

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/ ... ot/6ocpy85
Relevant bit at 1:30 in the video

"Geronimo" was the codeword for a successful mission.
"Jackpot" was the codename of Bin Laden, which apparently is the commonly-used codename for high value targets.

[SCRawl]

"Geronimo" was the codeword for a successful mission.
"Jackpot" was the codename of Bin Laden, which apparently is the commonly-used codename for high value targets.

That report quotes a "Senior White House Official". It's the information I used earlier in the thread, and I believed it to be true. The President gave an interview on "60 Minutes", though, and directly contradicted that information. I would be happy to think that he misspoke, but absent a retraction I think you'll have to admit that the man at the top has given the most credible information.

[Hawkwings]

I am suspicious of anyone non-military talking about military specifics. And this includes the President. Consider this: if "Jackpot" was not Bin Laden's codename, why has it been mentioned at all?

[SCRawl]

I am suspicious of anyone non-military talking about military specifics. And this includes the President. Consider this: if "Jackpot" was not Bin Laden's codename, why has it been mentioned at all?

The woman in the video said that all high value targets are given that name, so the possibility exists that it was an assumption. In any case, your first argument would make more sense if we knew that that "Senior White House Official" had a military background. Since we do not know this, it does not elevate that opinion over the highest level "White House Official" there is.

[Chi'Tak]

"Geronimo" was the codeword for a successful mission.
"Jackpot" was the codename of Bin Laden, which apparently is the commonly-used codename for high value targets.

That report quotes a "Senior White House Official". It's the information I used earlier in the thread, and I believed it to be true. The President gave an interview on "60 Minutes", though, and directly contradicted that information. I would be happy to think that he misspoke, but absent a retraction I think you'll have to admit that the man at the top has given the most credible information.

That makes sense. I can not see the military I served in, which actually revers the person and studies the tactics of Geronimo, consciously using Geronimo, the name of such a superior warrior, leader, and hero of his people to identify a waste of human skin and mental midget like OBL.

The same sort of misspeak by LBJ is what gave us the SR-71 when its official desig prior to that was the RS-71. Even though it was know to be a gaffe it was never retracted and the desig was changed after that. Before someone says this is not a fact, I speak from 30 years working for the Lockheed Skunkworks as an Aerospace Weapons and Avionics Engineer, now retired.

[Thanas]

That makes sense. I can not see the military I served in, which actually revers the person and studies the tactics of Geronimo, consciously using Geronimo, the name of such a superior warrior, leader, and hero of his people to identify a waste of human skin and mental midget like OBL.

You seriously misread SCRawls post.

And btw, OBL being a "mental midget"?

[Hawkwings]

The woman in the video said that all high value targets are given that name, so the possibility exists that it was an assumption. In any case, your first argument would make more sense if we knew that that "Senior White House Official" had a military background. Since we do not know this, it does not elevate that opinion over the highest level "White House Official" there is.

If it is standard operating procedure, I don't see why they would change it.

Also, higher up does not mean more accurate information.

[Losonti Tokash]

That makes sense. I can not see the military I served in, which actually revers the person and studies the tactics of Geronimo, consciously using Geronimo, the name of such a superior warrior, leader, and hero of his people to identify a waste of human skin and mental midget like OBL.

You seriously misread SCRawls post.

And btw, OBL being a "mental midget"?

He's saying that the military didn't assign "Geronimo" to bin Laden, but that Obama did. And telling everyone he worked at Lockheed for some reason.

PS, LeMay had LBJ's speech altered because he didn't like RS-71 and wanted it to be SR-71. http://www.designation-systems.net/usmi ... #_MDS_SR71

[Chi'Tak]

That makes sense. I can not see the military I served in, which actually revers the person and studies the tactics of Geronimo, consciously using Geronimo, the name of such a superior warrior, leader, and hero of his people to identify a waste of human skin and mental midget like OBL.

You seriously misread SCRawls post.

And btw, OBL being a "mental midget"?

He's saying that the military didn't assign "Geronimo" to bin Laden, but that Obama did. And telling everyone he worked at Lockheed for some reason.

PS, LeMay had LBJ's speech altered because he didn't like RS-71 and wanted it to be SR-71. http://www.designation-systems.net/usmi ... #_MDS_SR71

The some reason I indicated was to say that knowledge of the history of the aircraft was known to those of us on classified programs and present in an unaltered record that very few on the outside had/have access to.

The article on the website you provided does state it was actually a gaffe or possibly a writers error, regardless of the desires of C. LeMay, and the President probably parroted what was on the speech written for him. The gaffe by LBJ is curious however as there is record that the President knew what the designation was as he was fully aware of the classified program and had actually met a few of the pilot/astronauts early in his presidency when he also inspected the aircraft during his tour of the Classified location ATT.

The SR-71 program was a bit before my time, however I worked with engineers, mechanics, and technicians, and USAF personnel that were on the program and had program access due to my engineering responsibilities on the F117 program. I was well aware of the history and engineering however as the A12 weapons system configuration was the seed that provided the F117 with the trapeze system in its weapons bay, and on the F22 and F35 as well. I became involved with the F117 program very early in its development after I left the P3 program at Moffett Field where I was a P3C Avionics and Weapons Field Service Rep for Lockheed.

[hongi]

This seems to me like such a minor issue. It's so minor on 'our' end that it doesn't seem to even warrant an apology. But it being so minor to us is precisely the problem.

The people who came up with Geronimo as the codeword didn't think about the Chiricahua Apache perspective. It didn't enter into their decision making process. Why should it? Because you're planning the death of one of America's great enemies, and you're using the name of someone who is considered to be a hero by many Americans.

It is a small thing, but it's indicative of a big thing. It's another example of how the broader culture thinks about a minority subproup. There's a lack of respect for what American Indians might think about American Indian matters. Don't believe me? American Indian mascots for football games. Even when Indians say that this is offensive racial stereotyping, some football clubs refuse to change their mascots.

Apoogising (we're sorry we used Geronimo's name) won't make American Indians magically wealthier and healthier, but if it's such a small matter and it was meant inoffensively, then why not apologise? If I make my sister angry over some trivial matter that I didn't even mean, I'll apologise anyway because it's...a trivial matter. Then there's no chance of it spiralling down into a shouting match.

[Thanas]

A German Spiegel article indeed confirms that Geronimo was the codeword for bin Laden. They quote several Seals saying "I see Geronimo" shortly before bin Laden was shot.