Nato left 61 African migrants to die of hunger and thirst

[Shroom Man 777]

Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi has previously warned European leaders backing the revolt against his 41-year rule that he would unleash a wave of migrants against Europe to retaliate against military strikes on his country.

I wonder if this moron realizes that, by depopulating his own damn country, he's dooming its economy. Say what you will about socialist parasites, but without people to work in your businesses and industries, provide goods and services, serve as consumers of goods and services, etc., your national economy is FUCKED- and with it, the nation itself.

Or he could just be pulling a Cuba and sending Libyan Tony Montanas to Florida Italy. They loved the European Dream... with a vengeance.

[Spoonist]

Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi has previously warned European leaders backing the revolt against his 41-year rule that he would unleash a wave of migrants against Europe to retaliate against military strikes on his country.

I wonder if this moron realizes that, by depopulating his own damn country, he's dooming its economy. Say what you will about socialist parasites, but without people to work in your businesses and industries, provide goods and services, serve as consumers of goods and services, etc., your national economy is FUCKED- and with it, the nation itself.

Sorry but that is flawed.
1-Libyan economy is reliant on resources not people
2-the oil and mineral companies provide their own people, did you miss the mass flight of chinese nationals?
3-its africa, if he wants people he can ask his tribal contacts in sub-sahara to send some, remember the mercs?
4-if he keeps power over a crippled economy he still gets more dough than losing power would, so even if your flawed reasoning would work it's moot
5-libya has received trade benefits before for 'taking care of' refuges, Italy sees this as a direct threat
etc

[K. A. Pital]

It's more than flawed. Libya gets most of the money from oil exports, not from domestic consumption. In rebel areas people flee en masse and nobody gives a shit. You only need a few dozen people to run a tanker and a few hundred to keep an oil pipeline and oil wells working. All these other "millions" aren't really necessary. Resource economies can demonstrate economic growth while losing population (e.g. Russia). It simply doesn't matter if the main revenue source is foreign cash for raw oil and gas.

[Siege]

I know you seem to think that demanding or starting an inquiry is already enough to prove that "they care" (TM). Sorry, but I'll be convinced only when I see results of this "immediate and comprehensive inquiry". Many inquiries resulted in nothing.

And I'm frankly not sure what the "™" in there is supposed to mean, or for that matter who the "they" between those quote tags are supposed to be. Clearly the fact that the Council of Europe is demanding an inquiry indicates that they care because if they didn't, they wouldn't have. Now if nothing comes of it and somehow everybody forgets to bring this matter before the European Court of Human Rights or something, then you certainly have a point. But that yet remains to be seen, which was my point.

[Broomstick]

I read it as "they care enough to call an inquiry", which is marginally better than totally ignoring it. But it means little if nothing comes of that inquiry. Mind you, something useful isn't necessarily finding someone to blame or charge with a crime (though that may be appropriate), useful includes things like trying to figure out how to better coordinate so something like a boat in distress being overlooked, or one mistaken for another, doesn't happen in the future in addition to making it clear that failure to respond to those in distress will be punished. With so many entities operating in the same area there has to be communication difficulties, even apart from issues of common language (which likely isn't helping either).

[Thanas]

You might have a point if the failings of the entitiy in question (whose job it is to look at human rights violation committed in Europe) were well documented. Until then, they should probably get a bit more than "marginally better than ignoring it", considering they are currently doing all they can and follow proper procedure in these matters.

[Broomstick]

If the "proper procedure" leaves 68 people to die of thirst and starvation it needs to be looked at with an eye to improvements, unless I am misunderstanding what you're saying there. Are you talking about proper procedure for how to handle boats in distress, or some sort of standard procedure for looking into these matters?

And no, I don't actually know the track record of the agency(s) in question, but given that Europeans are not immune to prejudice and human failings, and some of the historical lapses of moral behavior on that continent pardon me for being skeptical as to just how effective an inquiry is going to be. Mind you, I would love to be pleasantly surprised by what may come of said inquiry. As I said, I'm not specifically looking for someone to punish, as simply dredging up a scapegoat is not as important as finding the facts in this case and making sure it doesn't happen again - thought, let's get real, this sort of thing will happen again at some point whatever the cause, all we can do is minimize it.

As a bit of a tangent, I also think that Italy should not be left to bear the brunt of any immigrants/refugees who do wash up on shore. I'm not sure how much other nations are doing to help them with that, would be happy to be reassured on that point as well.

[Thanas]

If the "proper procedure" leaves 68 people to die of thirst and starvation it needs to be looked at with an eye to improvements, unless I am misunderstanding what you're saying there. Are you talking about proper procedure for how to handle boats in distress, or some sort of standard procedure for looking into these matters?

The latter.

And no, I don't actually know the track record of the agency(s) in question

It is the official watchdog.

As a bit of a tangent, I also think that Italy should not be left to bear the brunt of any immigrants/refugees who do wash up on shore. I'm not sure how much other nations are doing to help them with that, would be happy to be reassured on that point as well.

Currently,the Italians have maneuvered themselves into a wall and sadly the rest of Europe currently does not help them out. We should, but apparently France/Italy are perfectly happy to yell at each other while Germany is left outside due to our stance on Libya.

[Sidewinder]

It's more than flawed. Libya gets most of the money from oil exports, not from domestic consumption. In rebel areas people flee en masse and nobody gives a shit. You only need a few dozen people to run a tanker and a few hundred to keep an oil pipeline and oil wells working. All these other "millions" aren't really necessary. Resource economies can demonstrate economic growth while losing population (e.g. Russia). It simply doesn't matter if the main revenue source is foreign cash for raw oil and gas.

Conceded. Incidentally, this article seems related.

Is China dealing in stolen property?

11.04.2011

If some ordinary guy off the street knowingly buys something, like a watch or a television or a DVD player from a fence that sells stolen property cheap...he is liable to be prosecuted and go to jail. But if the buyer of stolen property is a huge, powerful country...are the world's policemen going to smile, pat him on the back and even facilitate the crime? This is exactly what they are in the process of doing.
Such is the case just reported that China has the tanker, Equator, registered to Greek operators, Dynacom Tankers Management Ltd, on its way, delivering 80,000 tonnes of Libyan crude oil.

So far they are being all slippery about it, saying the destination is China but "they don't know who the buyer is." Well fat chance it's anyone but China.

What's wrong, China? Don't want to be accused of the crime of aiding and abetting in the theft of oil belonging to the Libyan people? Grand larceny? An accessory after the fact to the felonious theft of Libyan oil? What sort of "Communist" country aids in the theft of the people's oil and makes it a highly profitable venture?

Perhaps now we see a reason for China's abstention at the UN Security Council. They would be given the first piece of the pie. Shame on you, China, aren't you worried about losing face before the world?

The fencing agent is reportedly called Vitol, who will act to make the transfer of funds via an offshore account.

It will take 28 days at sea for the stolen property to arrive at its destination, IF it arrives, which hopefully it will not. Time for someone to point out: that oil belongs to the PEOPLE OF LIBYA, not mercenaries, not terrorists and agents of Al Qaeda, the CIA and other foreign intelligence services...whose first task in their so-called rebellion was to steal Libya's oil above all else, forget "freedom and democracy" we're in the oil stealing business.

These criminals don't even try to hide it anymore or pretend. They do it right out in the open and are proud of it.

The Libyan people may never again see a single payment for the oil that rightly belongs to them. Under Ghaddafi, the oil revenues were distributed among the Libyan people, as it is their property and everyone gets a share.

If that oil is allowed to be stolen, may it curse all who commit the crime, whether it be in the actual theft, transport, payment process or the buyer who, after all, makes it all worthwhile.

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink...the corporate mainstream media treat the theft as though it's good news, the most natural thing in the world, oh my, the oil is starting to flow again. Never mind that it was the fault of the terrorists for it being interrupted in the first place.

It takes a thief to know a thief and so they're all criminals and they're all in on it and the world sits back apathetically as though they are all, to quote Gogol, "Dead Souls." No one cares about right and wrong or international law anymore.

How many more Libyans and Africans have to die to supply the ravenous greed and appetites of these global criminals who use the obsolete NATO and the incompetent UN as their battering rams and enablers? What do you fascists have to say for yourselves?

Lisa Karpova

I'm sorry, but didn't Russia also abstrain from voting on this issue? Wasn't Ghaddafi's imbalanced distribution of oil revenues the reason half his nation is rebelling against the other half? And did the Greeks who are now selling the oil to China, pay for the oil already?

[Broomstick]

As a bit of a tangent, I also think that Italy should not be left to bear the brunt of any immigrants/refugees who do wash up on shore. I'm not sure how much other nations are doing to help them with that, would be happy to be reassured on that point as well.

Currently,the Italians have maneuvered themselves into a wall and sadly the rest of Europe currently does not help them out. We should, but apparently France/Italy are perfectly happy to yell at each other while Germany is left outside due to our stance on Libya.

Forgive my denseness, but the opportunity to work this week has interfered with my keeping up with the news: what about Germany's stance on Libya prevents them from accepting some refugees, particularly some who aren't Libyan nationals but from other nations trying to get out of the war zone? Or from commenting on what's going on?

I don't expect Germany to take them all, either, but it would be a humanitarian gesture. And help out some people in genuine need.

[Thanas]

Forgive my denseness, but the opportunity to work this week has interfered with my keeping up with the news: what about Germany's stance on Libya prevents them from accepting some refugees, particularly some who aren't Libyan nationals but from other nations trying to get out of the war zone? Or from commenting on what's going on?

I don't expect Germany to take them all, either, but it would be a humanitarian gesture. And help out some people in genuine need.

On the surface, nothing prevents this. And if Germany really wants to do something, then there is pretty squat nothing anybody else in Europe can do unless they band together under French leadership. A few problems however:

- Germany is (for obvious historical reasons) not that keen to throw its weight around. I mean, the last time Germany really did that was in the current financial crisis and several nations were already howling about Germany manhandling them. As a consequence, Germany tries to stay out of internal matters - which this is.
- Germany is involving itself in the larger international issue which is certain nations (Denmark, France, Italy) trying to disregard Schengen and walling themselves off, and has condemned such measures. This is the (for Germany) currently more important fight as closed borders threaten the economy as well as decades of political progress.
- There is also the matter of the Italians not being honest here. Under EU law, they are required to take part of the refugees first. When France refused them entry, what did the Italians do? Issue the refugees visas and carted them over the borders, essentially wishing them good luck and get out. This of course is a clear violation of treaty obligations and why the French are so incensed about this currently. Due to this move and several others (including general incompetence) nobody is willing to trust the Italians, especially not Berlusconi. So I think every state that agrees to take some in is to a certain degree afraid of getting screwed here.
- Germany has so far paid seven millions to aid the rebels (with the money apparently being used for political purposes).
- Then of course there is the popular perception in Germany that currently we are already paying for every bankrupt country in Europe (of whom at least one lied to us over several decades). Thus, not many people favor adding on more burdens. I am not interested in defending that point of view, just stating it here.
- sheer xenophobia due to decades of failed integration (it does not help the perception that the most troubling groups of that failed integration also come either from muslim or african countries). Again, not defending it, just explaining it.

[Broomstick]

Thank for that concise explanation.

- Then of course there is the popular perception in Germany that currently we are already paying for every bankrupt country in Europe (of whom at least one lied to us over several decades). Thus, not many people favor adding on more burdens. I am not interested in defending that point of view, just stating it here.

Quite understandable - the US has comparable problems, with some people having the perception they're paying for others who are freeloaders, and of some local governments using buses to transport the poor and needy elsewhere, to become someone else's problems. I understand that's a description, not an excuse.

- sheer xenophobia due to decades of failed integration (it does not help the perception that the most troubling groups of that failed integration also come either from muslim or african countries). Again, not defending it, just explaining it.

Again, understood. The problems of immigrants in Germany couldn't possibly be addressed without diverting into a lot of history off the topic of this thread. My perception is that Germany is better than it used to be but of of course that doesn't mean it's ideal, either. On the other hand, certain groups of people don't want to assimilate, but want the larger culture to change into them. This usually doesn't work out too well.

Do you think economic issues (fear of displaced workers moving in) or being swamped with immigrants form outside of Europe might also factor into some nations wanting to reverse Schengen?

[Thanas]

For Denmark it is pretty obvious the the nationalistic far-right are the ones behind it. That said, I doubt anybody will really reverse Schengen. I think as soon as certain nations start to talk about the losses to the economy, this will be abandoned.

And even if it is not, the European courts will take care of it.