What universe would you rather live in??

[Darth Tedious]

It's called Prime Time TV Slot.

I realise that, but I have to suspend my disbelief! So somehow, people have become prudes in the next few hundred years...

"And who's "Broccoli"? Do you mean Barkley?

Haven't you seen 'Hollow Pursuits'? It was his first appearance, and everyone was calling him Broccoli behind his back (that nickname was the coolest thing Wes ever did, IMO). Picard ordered everyone to stop using the nickname, then accidently called Reg Broccoli to his face. I'm guessing you haven't seen 'Hollow Pursuits'? It's the very episode in question, with Reg's holodeck fantasies...

I don't know exactly what said shenanigans were, so can you elaborate?

A somewhat tame soft-porn setting featuring Troi as the 'Goddess of Empathy'.

Also, while we never saw anything explicit, DS9 indicated that Quark ran some fairly dirty holodeck programs.

Quite true. Leaving it to our imagination gives a wide space for dirtiness...

And, of course, there's Risa.

Maybe's its something that varies from world to world. Vulcans are prudes. Maybe Betazoids are too. Doesn't mean the entire Federation is. And of course, there are varrying definitions of prude.

That is a possibility, backed up by Quark's dirty programs (and the Ferengi in general). There is also variation between individuals, too. L'waxana Troi was certainly not a prude, so it doesn't extend to all Betazoids...
Though it seems strange to me that any Betazoid could be a prude, what with being empaths and all- "Hey! How dare you feel like that while you're staring at my boobs!"

[Batman]

You don't need to be a prude to take exception to you being made part of somebody else's porn holodeck program. The issue people had with Barclay's program in that episode wasn't that it was lewd or immoral or anything like that, it was that he modeled the figures in it on them, rather glaringly obviously.

[The Romulan Republic]

You don't need to be a prude to take exception to you being made part of somebody else's porn holodeck program. The issue people had with Barclay's program in that episode wasn't that it was lewd or immoral or anything like that, it was that he modeled the figures in it on them, rather glaringly obviously.

An excellent point.

[Darth Tedious]

You don't need to be a prude to take exception to you being made part of somebody else's porn holodeck program. The issue people had with Barclay's program in that episode wasn't that it was lewd or immoral or anything like that, it was that he modeled the figures in it on them, rather glaringly obviously.

Riker was pretty annoyed at the use of his image, which Troi said was nothing to worry about, "it's good .for people to have a healthy fantasy life". Of course, Riker agreed with her when he saw the Goddess of Empathy...

[DudeGuyMan]

Blow shit up....as in blow up pirates, criminals, smugglers, that kind of shit. I don't care about politics of the particular universe, I want to serve in a navy protecting people. Serving in pirate hunting squadrons in the Outer Rim serves this purpose, as well as avoiding Vader, as I don't think he was ever involved with pirate hunters.

And then, come ROTJ and Endor when I'm running through the Outer Rim as an Admiral with my own battlegroup, defect to the Rebels. Or just sit back and set up my own little fiefdom, run it fairly and when the NR turns up to try and curbstomp me, wlecome them with open arms and join them as a distinct group of worlds. Like the Ciutric Hegemony does.

Oh okay because when you pick which universe to live in you also get to magically become someone qualified to be an Admiral in a space navy and a mighty leader of men holding dominion over worlds. You totally don't end up scrubbing toilets on a Star Destroyer for 20 years while posting on the hypernet about what a badass you'd be if you lived in the universe of your favorite holomovie.

At least my fantasy only requires me to be perverted.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well if everyone is so massively concerned about the Empire being evil, I'll choose to live in the New Republic or the Galactic Alliance instead.

Which government is in power does not detract from my choice of universe.

[Darth Tedious]

I'd probably choose the SW universe myself, but I must say, the Federation does have a rather large advantage in choices of career...

You could become a holodeck program writer, spending very long hours perfecting the nuances of bordello simulation...

[DudeGuyMan]

Well if everyone is so massively concerned about the Empire being evil, I'll choose to live in the New Republic or the Galactic Alliance instead.

Which government is in power does not detract from my choice of universe.

I'm not concerned with your willingness to be the hand of fascism. I'm just chuckling at the apparent unwarranted self-importance that leads you to believe you'll end up a mighty leader and warlord in that universe, instead of a regular guy like you presumably are in this universe.

I have no such illusions. I'm happy to be a regular guy in the Federation doing whatever regular people do there. They seem to have it pretty good, from what I've seen.

[Collossus]

Well if everyone is so massively concerned about the Empire being evil, I'll choose to live in the New Republic or the Galactic Alliance instead.

Which government is in power does not detract from my choice of universe.

I'm not concerned with your willingness to be the hand of fascism. I'm just chuckling at the apparent unwarranted self-importance that leads you to believe you'll end up a mighty leader and warlord in that universe, instead of a regular guy like you presumably are in this universe.

I have no such illusions. I'm happy to be a regular guy in the Federation doing whatever regular people do there. They seem to have it pretty good, from what I've seen.

Just avoid those red shirts and you should be fine........

[Eternal_Freedom]

And all the losses to the Borg and the Dominion.....

[Eternal_Freedom]

Unless you're on a colony getting attacked by monster/anomaly/aliens of the week of course.

[Eternal_Freedom]

They are better than the Empire's, not all of Star Wars.

[Eternal_Freedom]

It was hardly easy for Palpatine to do it. It took a decade or more and at least one war.

Besides, I have no intention of becoming a criminal in either universe, so the merits of the judicial systems do not concern me.

[Eternal_Freedom]

True. Nevertheless, I stand by my choice. I would rather live in the SW universe than the ST one.

[The Romulan Republic]

What's the alternative? The fucking Republic? It's just the Empire with more bullshit. There's still extrajudicial executions (Windu's attempt on Palpatine),

Windu initially went to arrest him.

unpunished crimes (most the shit seen in The Phantom Menace,

Name one justice system in history that's never had an unpunished crime. Especially when it comes to backwater shitholes where the Republic's laws (against slavery) aren't even enforced anyway.

But, like we see in ANH when Ben maims that bar patron, it's not a crime when a Guardian of Peace and Justice does it!),

Self-defense/defence of Luke? Its not like Kenobi didn't try to defuse the situation without violence. Also, he was a wanted fugitive (albeit for other reasons).

and ineffective government help (Naboo).

Okay, I'll give you that one.

[Stofsk]

Adam, your examples need more work. Windu and those three other Jedi not only went to Palpatine's office to arrest him, they did so under the authority granted to them from the Senate. Palpatine outright murdered three of those Jedi before Anakin came along and sliced off Windu's hand. Tattooine was also never a part of the Republic, it's under the control of the Hutts - it's more or less anarchy there so no laws really apply. Besides, stuff like Ben slicing off a convicted murderer's hand after he goes for his blaster to kill Luke under the flimsiest of pretenses isn't an example of Jedi overstepping their authority, or being extrajudicial. Even though Tattooine really has no laws other than whatever Jabba sets down, Ben's actions would still fall under self-defence and defence of others.

I understand what you're getting at, but some of your examples just need better work.

[Scottish Ninja]

Self-defense/defence of Luke? Its not like Kenobi didn't try to defuse the situation without violence.

Maybe, I didn't realize he was pulling a gun. It seemed like totally unproportional force. (Now that you mention it, that makes a lot more sense though.)

The relevant bit starts at about 5:40. I did remember the reaction shot of the severed arm with a pistol, but I forgot that the gun actually comes out and fires before Kenobi cuts the arm off.

[Darth Tedious]

It's not one, it seems to be a systematic flaw. I can't name any offense that actually was punished in the movies at all! Maybe Nute Gunray did some time off screen though, I do think there was a short line about that.... but he was right back to his position for the next movie, so it doesn't seem very effective anyway.

It is mentioned in AotC that he'd been to trial four times, and was aquitted each time.

There must be some kind of justice system in place in the Empire besides summary execution without trial- people do get sent to prison on Kessel.

[Darth Hoth]

Speaking of government murder, let's compare criminal justice.

Star Wars: if you're accused of a crime, you're burned alive (Uncle Owen, Aunt Beru), if you're lucky. If you go to the government for help, you're ignored (Queen Amidala). Regardless of if your civilian or military, executions without trail seem to be the norm. (Leia in ANH, the admiral in ESB)!

Seems as though you like hasty generalisations . . .

The entire charade with the 'droids in the first film was a black op; Vader was acting illegally in seizing Leia's ship to begin with, and the Tatooine troopers murdered everyone they came across precisely in order to cover their tracks. Is there anything at all to suggest that this is the norm?

This is already in the film and the novelisation, and is made all the clearer in the relevant EU.

Leia was caught barehanded in an act of treason, and sentenced by Tarkin under emergency laws. Again, in the film.

(EDIT: Saw in your later post that you agreed with this, so ignore this point, above.)

Now, the case of Admiral Ozzel, that I agree does certainly paint the Empire in an unfavourable light.


On what you say about the Jedi, below, Mace Windu and his cronies were again acting contrary to the law. It is made fully clear in the novelisation of the film that the Jedi Council essentially planned a coup against Palpatine and the Senate. (It may be said in the actual film also; I only watched any given prequel film two or three times, so my memory of them might suffer.)


But none of the cases you cite here is exactly what would be called business as usual or good examples of the criminal justice system of either the First Galactic Empire or the Old Republic.

[DudeGuyMan]

We have the NJO where trillions were murdered by the Vong across huge swaths of the galaxy (including Coruscant) as the New Republic flailed around not knowing what to do with itself. A bunch of Starfleet personnel may have died at Wolf 359, but at least the Borg cube was stopped before managing to raze Earth and assimilate half the Federation.

The Republic is 25,000 years old so there must have been SOME periods of peace worth living in, but I'll be damned if I can ever recall actually seeing such a period in any Star Wars media I've consumed.

Besides, what's so great about living in the Republic? So you're some average Joe sitting in his apartment drinking space coffee and catching the lazerball game on the hypernet or whatever. Big deal. Back in Trekverse I'm watching prime Ashley Judd mudwrestle Natalie Portman from my Throne of Tits.

[Darth Tedious]

We have the NJO where trillions were murdered by the Vong across huge swaths of the galaxy (including Coruscant) as the New Republic flailed around not knowing what to do with itself. A bunch of Starfleet personnel may have died at Wolf 359, but at least the Borg cube was stopped before managing to raze Earth and assimilate half the Federation.

They were hardly comparable situations. The Borg sent one cube- that's a pretty half-arsed token effort at an invasion compared to the Dominion (who actually made it to Earth, but didn't finish the job). The Vong sent a full-scale galactic invasion. Sure, the Empire would have been able to deal with it (at least much better than the New Republic did), but that's only because of the ridiculous level of militarisation they have.

Don't forget, STIV's Alien of The Week almost wiped out Earth because it couldn't find any whales.

The Republic is 25,000 years old so there must have been SOME periods of peace worth living in, but I'll be damned if I can ever recall actually seeing such a period in any Star Wars media I've consumed.

The long periods of peace don't get mentioned because it's Star Wars. The peaceful times are considered uninteresting.

[Stofsk]

We have the NJO where trillions were murdered by the Vong across huge swaths of the galaxy (including Coruscant) as the New Republic flailed around not knowing what to do with itself. A bunch of Starfleet personnel may have died at Wolf 359, but at least the Borg cube was stopped before managing to raze Earth and assimilate half the Federation.

They were hardly comparable situations. The Borg sent one cube- that's a pretty half-arsed token effort at an invasion compared to the Dominion (who actually made it to Earth, but didn't finish the job).

What the fuck are you talking about? The Borg sent one cube - and that was plenty sufficient. The only reason the Borg failed was because the Enterprise was lucky enough to have a fucking android onboard who could interface with their computer systems after they had recaptured Locutus/Captain Picard. No Data = no Earth.

And as for the Dominion making it to Earth - no they didn't. The Breen surprise attacked Earth but the attack was repelled. The Dominion never succeeded in attacking or invading Earth.

As for the two not being comparable - rubbish. This whole tangent was introduced pages ago by people spuriously claiming Trek is the most dangerous universe to pick, which is complete bullshit.

[Darth Tedious]

My mistake- Breen, not Dominion.

I'm not saying the GFFA is a safer place to live- quite the contrary. However, I still say the Borg attack and the Vong invasion are not comparable events. The Vong invasion was a galaxy spanning crisis. Places that were completely safe and untouched (like Geonosis) were in the minority. I don't see how that is comparable to the Borg attack. Yes, that one cube would have been suficient, but it was just that- one ship. Just because the Federation is so weak it was almost beaten by a single ship doesn't make the situation itself comparable.
The Vong wanted to recreate their homeworld on Coruscant. The Borg weren't trying to build a new Unicomplex where Earth used to be.

I hate to have to agree with the Borgwankers, but if they'd really been trying, they would have succeeded. That said, the Borg have a track record of not really trying. Just look at Voyager...

[DudeGuyMan]

Another point in favor of Trekverse: The biggest threat to civilization is a chronic underachiever, unlike those hardworking Vong!

[Stofsk]

My mistake- Breen, not Dominion.

I'm not saying the GFFA is a safer place to live- quite the contrary. However, I still say the Borg attack and the Vong invasion are not comparable events. The Vong invasion was a galaxy spanning crisis. Places that were completely safe and untouched (like Geonosis) were in the minority. I don't see how that is comparable to the Borg attack. Yes, that one cube would have been suficient, but it was just that- one ship. Just because the Federation is so weak it was almost beaten by a single ship doesn't make the situation itself comparable.

Just because the scales are miles apart doesn't mean the two scenarios aren't comparable. It depends on what criteria you use to examine both scenarios. The way I look at it is that Borg were an outside context problem for the Federation, and very nearly succeeded in its mission. The Vong are the same - they're literally from outside the galaxy and thus outside the Republic's frame of reference, and they have sufficient force as to be a credible threat.

You could say that the Vong were conquering the rest of the galaxy, while the Borg were on a direct course for earth, but what difference does that make? If anything, that makes it much worse for the SW side - they had ample time to prepare and attempt to repel the invasion, and to treat the Vong appropriately anytime prior to the events in 'Star By Star', whereas the Trek side had very little time to scramble its defences on top of the fact the Borg arrived sooner than they had anticipated (to them, their maximum warp from system J-25 back to Federation territory would have taken a couple of years, while the Borg cube arrived little over a year later after 'QWho').

And saying that the cube was just 'one ship' makes no difference. It's one ship that dwarfs the Federation's most powerful ship - the Enterprise - in size, power, speed, armament, etc. And it went through an armada of 40 ships at Wolf 359. There's little difference to starfleet repelling one cube or repelling a Dominion invasion. It's practically no different, with the proviso that repelling the Dominion ought to be 'easier' than with the Borg. And yeah, the Borg could have sent two cubes and be assured of victory. Of course this was a problem with FC and Voyager, not with TNG. Prior to FC, my conception of the Borg was a lot different than what they ended up being.

The Vong wanted to recreate their homeworld on Coruscant. The Borg weren't trying to build a new Unicomplex where Earth used to be.

No, but the Borg wanted to assimilate earth. They weren't just going to beam down to plant a little Borg flag atop the Federation Council building. They were there to borgify everyone and 'adapt them to service their needs'. That's functionally equivalent to what the Vong aimed to do, and did, to Coruscant.