Moderator: Vympel
Another question- how can they see? Just as they need to be able to interact with the atmosphere to breathe, the retinas in their eyes need to absorb incoming light in order to see anything.Open question: why can they breathe? Meh, the out of universe answer is the only "perfect" one, but the gravity thing works pretty well for everything else.
I was addressing Batman's theory WRT the question about the wiring to the phase cloak having failed- as in, if the wiring to it failed, why did it work at all? There should have been no power getting to it.Agent Sorchus wrote:Darth Tedious: I do believe that the episode in question mentioned that the ship had a power surge aboard it.
When did I say a word about the wiring to it failing? I merely presented a theory for why the ship could remain phased without continuous power input to the cloak. We essentially don't know beans about what happened back then, so 'cloak activation' (intentional or otherwise)-something goes seriously wrong and kills the crew-ship drifts into asteroid-after a while, something else goes wrong and deactivates the cloak is a decidedly possible scenario.Darth Tedious wrote:I was addressing Batman's theory WRT the question about the wiring to the phase cloak having failed- as in, if the wiring to it failed, why did it work at all? There should have been no power getting to it.Agent Sorchus wrote:Darth Tedious: I do believe that the episode in question mentioned that the ship had a power surge aboard it.
It was DXIII who mentioned the wiring failure.Batman wrote:When did I say a word about the wiring to it failing? I merely presented a theory for why the ship could remain phased without continuous power input to the cloak. We essentially don't know beans about what happened back then, so 'cloak activation' (intentional or otherwise)-something goes seriously wrong and kills the crew-ship drifts into asteroid-after a while, something else goes wrong and deactivates the cloak is a decidedly possible scenario.Darth Tedious wrote:I was addressing Batman's theory WRT the question about the wiring to the phase cloak having failed- as in, if the wiring to it failed, why did it work at all? There should have been no power getting to it.Agent Sorchus wrote:Darth Tedious: I do believe that the episode in question mentioned that the ship had a power surge aboard it.
The thing to really remember (IIRC) is that it was still largely an experimental device, but we dont know how far along it was. It sounds like there was alot of disagreement about the safety levels of the device, and that's a very subjective impression. If Pressman was a particularily callous or pragmatic type, he might (purely a hypothetical numbeR) might be happy with a 1 in 20 failure rate, yet Riker (or starfleet) consider that far too high a loss. Hell maybe even for them one in 100 would be excessive.Destructionator XIII wrote: This thing is something to remind folks who talk about cranking up power too. In real life, if you turn up the power more than the wiring in the middle is rated for, you'll burn it out and start a fire. (Of course, ideally, a fuse or circuit breaker steps in before it comes to that. Building code requires that the wiring have a safety margin above the breaker's rating, to guarantee it blows before they burn, and the breakers are rated to survive current spikes a lot more than anything normal too.
But, even with the safety requirements in building codes, sometimes shit still happens. And, sometimes people purposely bypass them or ignorantly introduce another weak link. Commercial buildings here are prohibited by the fire code in using extension cords. Why? The internal wiring of the building is tough enough to take abuse, but your typical household extension cord isn't rated to that kind of current spikes.
So, if you (or God, eg lightning) overloaded the extension cord, it might not be able to handle it and start a fire, despite everything else working properly and being well within their safety margins.
It's certainly possible for extension cords to be perfectly safe, but the fire department doesn't want to take chances with a public building, so they banned the whole thing.)
Yep. Again, it's experimental, and there's just no saying how complicated the design is. Hell, for all we know the problems originate with making the technology work with the other stuff in a federation starship. Perhaps the power generation systems do not take kindly to being phased? Or maybe the subspace related systems go wonky in a phased state. Who knows.Anyway, I'm really digressing. The point is, the entire system, from generator to output and every little thing in between needs to be able to handle the worst situation you throw at it. The weak point might be something you never even considered!
Maybe it does cut power.. but would that mean the energy just magically dries up and vanishes? There could be some delay or lag time between cutting power and things shutting down. Energy stored in capacitors/batteries, or still in the power transfer systems/conduits and whatnot. There could even be finite rates at which power can be safely shut down, and if you exceed that bad things happen.(weird though: wouldn't the explosion cut power? Maybe it has an added draw to start up, like a lot of electric systems. (Motors, for example, take a lot more current getting up to speed than maintaining it.) This initial burst blew out one system, but the cloaking device still had enough power to work through other connections.)
I've heard SIFs also argued as a reason, but we know SIFs are used in the walls too. AG maybe.. but wouldn't the gravity just be likely to pull people through the ground? Unless you're saying whatever generates the AG might keep them propped - some material they can't phase through.Yup. Out of universe, obviously the actors have to walk. There'd be no story if the ship just left them behind...
In universe, I speculate that the ship's artificial gravity plating might be responsible.
To get there, I asked: what's the difference between a walls, tables, rocks, people, etc. that they pass through and the starship's floor that they don't? The only answer I found satisfactory is the floor has some kind of gravity system in it.
Dunno. Hard to say because I dont remember us knowing a great deal about how the ships are constructed.The other main option thrown up was materials, but I rejected it because the walls are probably made of the same stuff, and they passed through them without trouble.
Well I think the fact we know gravity is acting on them and they aren't floating away is sufficient proof that some sort of force field acts on them, yeah. I'm just not sure that gravity alone would work. Maybe whatever is in the floor has some sort of repulsive anti-gravitational properties that cancels out whatever downward pull they might otherwise feel? I imagine they might have conduits and such running through the floors and even some walls. Just because some walls can be passed through doesn't mean all would be.The inertial dampers might work on a similar principle, so we can apply this same reasoning there to explain why they move with the ship, in the absence of a regular force acting upon them.
Pegasus, you mean. The USS Phoenix was a different ship altogether.Connor MacLeod wrote:It occured to me that we actually have the case with Ro/Romulan/other character (Geordi?) being "phased" as a benchmark to go by (if their state was related to what happened to the Phoenix, that is.)
It does occur to me that the fact they feel gravity at all doesn't mean its 1g standard. It could be much less than that (say like, 1/3 or 1/5 g) It also occurs to me that their bodies in a phased state may influence the sort of field needed to provide an upward force (I mean, there may not be alot of mass there to push up against, although contemplating that gets us into mass lightening territory, and I start to get the sort of headache you must be feeling.)Destructionator XIII wrote: Yeah, the generator thing I think puts them up. I figure it's some kind of technobabble particle that pulls down but also stops phased people... for whatever reason. Problem here: do turbolifts have gravity generators in there? Why is it possible to fall down a shaft? Not how I'd design a ship. Then again, I probably wouldn't bother with full gravity at all......
Gah, really, bringing artificial gravity into a phase discussion just means we have two problems instead of one!
Dammit, that's a good point. Density may not be the sole factor though. It could be a combination of material properties that determine the ease/difficulty with which phased matter can pass through other matter. For example, perhaps the ability for Ro and Geordi to breathe despite being "phased" is due to the fact the air around them is not only low density, but in a gaseous state (whilst the walls are solid, and dense.) I mean water can exist in a vapor, liquid, and solid form, but its permeability is variable depending on that state. (Hell ice is LESS dense than water. So are Trees. Yet I can't walk through the side of a log cabin or an iceberg.)Moving around might work. Actually, I like that a lot, it's pretty cool, like walking on water!
But, I really don't think density or even thickness has anything to do with it simply because there's no indication given to that effect. Geordi was punching around, experimenting with what he could do, and wandering around the ship for some time. If he felt a difference moving through different materials, I imagine he would have said something.
That Romulan who flies out is a good counter too. He wasn't pushing off - if the hull of the ship (surely dense and thick) slowed him down, I would expect him to, well, slow down.
Well, I think its fairly obvious we know there is SOMETHING there keeping them standing on the floor, and it is somehow different than what is in the walls. The WHY that is isn't a vital matter, if it gets down to it. It can be kind of a fun mental exercise to figure out, though.If there is an effect, it must be too small to see or feel easily, which doesn't jive with them easily walking.
Could be. But to the same extent that the walls might? Who knows. Maybe whatever technologies they stick under the floor require the floors to be made out of materials they can't neccesarily make the walls out of. OR they may require greater thicknesses (insulation, or radiation shielding, for example) that might offer a barrier against phasing compared to the walls. For all we know, whatever powers the artificial gravity might require the floors to be made from different mateirals than the walls.Maybe, but wouldn't certain floors also be free of it? Maybe they coincidentally didn't hit any of them.
True, it is the simplest answer, although it doesnt help in univrese much. REally I suppose we don't have to beat our heads over it TOO much. I mean the simple fact that differences occur, for whatever reason, suffices. That they can breathe, or pass through the walls but not the floors, points at obvious limitations to the phase cloaking that makes it harder to use as the sooper=dooper gamewinner it may get spun out to be. I also share your preference for the "staithforward" tooI really like the out of universe answerThis kind of thing is why superweapons really suck for vs. Too much side bullshit to wade through. At least "torpedo go boom" is a straightforward concept.
And have the whole UFP be in an uproar and strap you on the roof of a runabout and then hit the warp drive while still in Earth's stmosphere.JasonB wrote:Another more radical option genetic engineering at least one special live under UFP has the able making other see thing not real there. This race known as the Aenar how strict rule how to us their telepathic able like for example ban allow read mind permission. Now just think what happen UFP genetic starfleet officers was this able. UFP having Imperial star destroyer crew blow ships up. Across ethic reasons the UFP never did that. If I was come defense plan and anything I want that would be it.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Aenar
Enigma in practice I could clone them or genetic engineer UFP personal with their that telepathic ability .Enigma wrote:And have the whole UFP be in an uproar and strap you on the roof of a runabout and then hit the warp drive while still in Earth's stmosphere.JasonB wrote:Another more radical option genetic engineering at least one special live under UFP has the able making other see thing not real there. This race known as the Aenar how strict rule how to us their telepathic able like for example ban allow read mind permission. Now just think what happen UFP genetic starfleet officers was this able. UFP having Imperial star destroyer crew blow ships up. Across ethic reasons the UFP never did that. If I was come defense plan and anything I want that would be it.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Aenar
You'll have to force the Aenar to reverse their ban and that won't sit well with them nor with the rest of the Federation members.
I did think sector 31 care much ethic laws if UFP Council give them green light I think allow it.Enigma wrote:Just because you can does not mean your people will accept it. The civilians are basically peace loving hippies and to reverse several ethical laws against cloning and genetic engineering will piss them off.
Enjoy that runabout ride.
You didn't say Section 31, shit-fucker. Plus Section 31 operates outside Federation laws and if the Council gets a whiff of their plans and you collusion, they'll still be in an uproar.JasonB wrote:I did think sector 31 care much ethic laws if UFP Council give them green light I think allow it.Enigma wrote:Just because you can does not mean your people will accept it. The civilians are basically peace loving hippies and to reverse several ethical laws against cloning and genetic engineering will piss them off.
Enjoy that runabout ride.
They poorly define at best however we known they have science team has the ability design biological weapon one year after the Dominion cold war had start. We known had something call banes cannon. If wish see evidence for this just watch this video form 3 minute and 37 seconds to about 3 minute and 47 listen part Doctor Bashir say” only my god sector 31 had a banes cannon”.Connor MacLeod wrote:It would help if Section-31's exactl capabilities and limits were very well defined. All too often I simply see them used just as an excuse to justify some of the more comic-book style tactics come up with to "win" for Trek.
Connor MacLeod wrote:Which only gets back to the precise problem. You could in theory interpret Section 31 to have ANY sort of resources you wanted so long as it doesn't require proof. (massive fleet of warships? Hey why not! Sophisticated military weaponry? Sure! Tons of stealth and doomsday weapons? Quite probably! Hell why not even throw in time travel?) But then it runs into the problem that, given the whole reason for Section 31 existing.. it for some reason seems not to be able to employ these resources to the degree you'd think they ought to. Whilst I hate using the "why don't they do x, y, z" argument willy nilly, and I am sure we can contrive alot of reasons WHY they might not have been able to do x,y,z (eg "they were off taking care of some other threat and couldn't use it here.") it really strats getting complicated and stretching plausibility. I mean hell, even if they have weapons technology and starships, that doesn't mean they have them in significant quantitites.
When you get down to it, Section 31's primarry abilities seem to center around sabotage, subversion and even assasination rather than anything overtly brute force. That isn't to say they couldn't be effective in those venues against other threats, but It doesn't make them an automatic game winner either (In fact I'd argue that Sisko, Janeway, and Picard together did more to combat external threats to the Federation than all of Section 31 combined.)
