60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

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60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by bobalot »

60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses, 75% of them had insurance.
Testimony of Steffie Woolhandler, M.D., M.P.H.

Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee. I’m Steffie Woolhandler. I am a primary care doctor in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and associate professor of medicine at Harvard. I also co-founded Physicians for a National Health Program. Our 16,000 physician members support nonprofit, single-payer national health insurance because of overwhelming evidence that lesser reforms — even with a robust public plan option - will fail.

Private insurance is a defective product. Unfortunately, the Tri-Committee health reform plan would keep private insurers in the driver’s seat, and, indeed, require Americans to buy their shoddy goods. Once failure to buy health insurance is a federal offense, what’s next? A Ford Pinto in every garage? Lead-painted toys for every child? Melamine-laced chow for every puppy?

Even middle-class families with supposedly good coverage are just one serious illness away from financial ruin. My colleagues and I recently found that medical bills and illness contribute to 62 percent of all personal bankruptcies — a 50 percent increase since 2001. Strikingly, three-quarters of the medically bankrupt had insurance — at least when they first got sick.

In case after case, the insurance families bought in good faith failed them when they needed it most. Some were bankrupted by co-payments and deductibles, and loopholes that allowed their insurer to deny coverage. Others got too sick to work, leaving them unemployed and uninsured. And insurance regulations like those proposed in the tri-committee bill cannot fix these problems.

We in Massachusetts have seen in action a plan like the one you’re considering. In my state, beating your wife, communicating a terrorist threat and being uninsured all carry $1,000 fines. Yet despite these steep fines, most of the new coverage in our state has come from expanding Medicaid-like programs at great public expense. According to the state’s disclosure to its bondholders, our health reform has cost about $5,000 annually for each newly insured adult. That’s equivalent to over $200 billion annually to cover all of America’s uninsured.

But even such vast expenditures haven’t made care affordable for middle-class families in Massachusetts. If I were to lose my Harvard coverage I’d be forced to lay out $4,800 for a policy with a $2,000 deductible before it pays for any care, and 20 percent co-payments after that. Skimpy, overpriced coverage like this left 1 in 6 Massachusetts residents unable to pay their medical bills last year.

Meanwhile, rising costs have forced the Legislature to rob Peter in order to pay Paul. Funding cuts have decimated safety-net hospitals and clinics, and the current budget drops coverage for 28,000 people.

As research I published in the New England Journal of Medicine showed, a single-payer reform could save about $400 billion annually by shrinking health care bureaucracy — enough to cover the uninsured and to provide first dollar coverage for all Americans. A single-payer system would also include effective cost-containment mechanisms like bulk purchasing and global budgeting. As a result, everyone would be covered with no net increase in U.S. health spending. But these savings aren’t available unless we go all the way to single payer.

Adding a public insurance plan option can’t fix the flaws in Massachusetts-style reform. A public plan might cut private insurers’ profits, which is why they hate it. But their profits account for only about 3 percent of the money squandered on bureaucracy. Far more goes for marketing (to attract healthy, profitable members) and demarketing (to avoid the sick). And tens of billions are spent on the armies of insurance administrators who fight over payment and their counterparts at hospitals and doctors offices. All of these would be retained with a public plan option.

And overhead for even the most efficient competitive public plan would be far higher than Medicare’s, which automatically enrolls seniors when they turn 65 and disenrolls them only at death, deducts premiums directly from Social Security checks, and does no marketing.

Unfortunately, competition in health insurance involves a race to the bottom, not the top. Insurers compete by NOT paying for care: by denying payment and shifting costs onto patients or other payers. These bad behaviors confer a decisive competitive advantage. A public plan option would either emulate them — becoming a clone of private insurance — or go under. A kinder, gentler public plan option would quickly fail in the marketplace, saddled with the sickest, most expensive patients, whose high costs would drive premiums to uncompetitive levels.

In contrast, a single-payer reform would radically simplify the payment system and redirect the vast savings to care. Hospitals could be paid like a fire department, receiving a single monthly check for their entire budget, eliminating most billing. Physicians’ billing could be similarly simplified.

Eight decades of experience teach that private insurers cannot control costs or provide families with the coverage they need. A government-run clone of private insurers cannot fix these flaws. Only single payer national health insurance can assure all Americans the care they need at a price they can afford.

Thank you.
Source

Here is the full research article from the American Journal of Medicine.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by SCRawl »

I wonder what makes this doctor hate America.

More seriously, we all know the reasons why single-payer is unlikely to happen: that $400 billion that she says can be saved would come at the expense of those who currently provide (for want of a better expression) coverage, and those entities are more than happy to part with a small piece of that pie and bribe lobby their elected representatives to make sure that that never happens.

I agree completely with what this doctor says, and I wish that she could be successful in making this case to the people in power. I just think that it's unlikely to go anywhere useful.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Dalton »

Nothing will happen. The government is owned by corporations who care more about profits than about people.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Simon_Jester »

I still wonder, from a poli-sci curiosity standpoint if nothing else, what the tipping point is- what level of public trouble is required to generate politicians who will solve it.

The level cannot, just as a matter of basic logic, be infinity- if the status quo involved raping every American every week and then setting their hair on fire, I'm pretty sure a lot of Americans would vote against the status quo no matter how much campaign money was spent propagandizing them.

On the other hand, the level is a lot higher than I would have thought five years ago. Which makes me look back with irritation on all the people who've ever said "let it get bad, that way people will know how bad it is and realize we were right!" Because it's sure taking a long time, guys... :roll:
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

On the other hand, the level is a lot higher than I would have thought five years ago. Which makes me look back with irritation on all the people who've ever said "let it get bad, that way people will know how bad it is and realize we were right!" Because it's sure taking a long time, guys...
Which is something to remember about all those people who were saying McCain should be elected instead of Obama because it would "break" the GOP by showing how terrible things could get.

I think what many of us are learning is America has a MASSIVE tolerance for having a red hot poker shoved up their ass when it comes to things like Health Care and the like. As you say, there must be a Timpping point... But I worry how far along that must be.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by aerius »

Simon_Jester wrote:I still wonder, from a poli-sci curiosity standpoint if nothing else, what the tipping point is- what level of public trouble is required to generate politicians who will solve it.
The tipping point comes when enough people get their internet and cable TV cut off so that they can't watch American Idol and Dancing with the Stars. When you have 100 million people who can't get their daily fix then you'll get something, but as long as they have TV and internet they'll stay nicely pacified.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Crossroads Inc. wrote:Which is something to remember about all those people who were saying McCain should be elected instead of Obama because it would "break" the GOP by showing how terrible things could get.
Or should have been- Honestly, I have zero regrets about voting for Obama over McCain, and very much doubt I ever will, despite my disappointment with the man.

There are quite a few people I'd rather see in the Oval Office, mind- but so very, very many I'm quite glad to keep out of it.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Broomstick »

Most people aren't sick enough to trigger the problems with their insurance. It's that simple. Lots of people think they have fantastic insurance but never read the fine print, so it isn't until the have a horrible accident or get a disease like cancer that they realize all those holes that are in "good" insurance.

One of the anecdotes I like to tell:

Every year I used to ask for a copy of my actual health insurance policy because I needed to know if it would cover me if I was injured while flying an airplane - remarkably, I was all the years I worked at Blue Cross, but I always checked just in case the policy changed (if it had, I would have purchased an additional policy to cover just that, available from a pilot's organization I belonged to). In 2002, while reading said policy, I noticed that we were no longer covered for ANY terrorist act of any sort. Prior to that, the exclusion had read "act of war" but not it clearly said "act of war or terrorism". That was of some concern, as we worked in downtown Chicago, in amongst all those skyscrapers, even before 9/11 Chicago had had its share of bomb scares and such, and now, if some jackass set a bomb off on Michigan Avenue that blew out all the windows and employees were cut or burned or otherwise injured there would be absolutely NO health coverage for those injuries whatsoever. This seemed particularly egregious since the 1200 employees of Empire Blue Cross and Blue Shield who had worked in the World Trade Center offices had been fully covered the year before. You know what? No one had noticed that new clause being slipped in. Not my contacts in HR. Not the managers or the VP I worked for. And this is an example of how coverage is whittled away under peoples' noses, even under the noses of people who work in the industry and are presumably well informed. All perfectly legal, all excused as "business necessity".

Don't get me started on the insurance plans that excluded treatment for birth defects on the basis that they are "pre-existing conditions". Grrr. :finger:

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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Serafina »

Wait a minute - that implies that they can change the policy without informing you?
That's just plain WRONG, and another indicator that the USA does not care about a free market (which implies an informed consumer).
As far as i know my insurance can't even change my coverage without essentially writing up a new contract. They can raise the premiums within a reasonable limit, but that's it. It's comparable to renting an apartment - the owner can change the rent (if it's not fixed) over time, but he can't just declare that you are no longer allowed to use the kitchen because that would be an essential change to the contract.

For the record i DO have private health insurance, though not by choice (it's complicated, due to being unemployed i could not get into public insurance because i was always privately insured over my father and i basically had to stay with the last public insurance i had, which was none - so i had to stay with my public insurance, although they would have to offer me at least basic coverage if i hadn't simply prolonged the contract).
The only financial trouble i am getting into is due to the fact that i am the one legally responsible for doctors fees etc., and that i am expected to pay them right away unless the sum is quite high. Most of my doctors know that i can't possibly do that, but i got into trouble once where i got a collection note because the insurance took quite long to pay me out, so that i could not give that doctor his money.

But other than that, i can not imagine getting into any financial trouble. At least not for anything that is medically necessary - or in fact even beneficial, such as routine checkups. That definition can be a bit dicey in some cases (such as transsexuality, tough my insurance is extremely benevolent there and didn't make any trouble so far), particularly with experimental treatments (got cancer and want to take a drug that is just now being tested? probably not covered). Although i think it is reasonable not to cover experimental treatments - after all health insurance is there to cover treatments that are known to improve your health, and if it's experimental it is not (yet) known whether it'll actually help.


Either way, i've never heard of anyone here going bankrupt due to medical expenses. The closest thing i know of is a self-employed person getting sick for a long time while having an expensive lifestyle and little savings.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Broomstick »

Serafina wrote:Wait a minute - that implies that they can change the policy without informing you?
Remember that for most Americans they have no choice in what insurance they have, they get whatever their employer is willing to pay for - and employers are not required to provide any sort of health insurance whatsoever. For the most part, employees are issued "policy summaries" which are highly dumbed-down versions of the policy that do not go into specifics. You have to explicitly ask to see a copy of the actual policy, and that isn't always as easy as saying "I want to see the full policy".

In fact, the first time I asked to see the details at Blue Cross a Human Resources drone actually told me I wasn't allowed to see it! Well, she was wrong and that was quickly corrected by her boss, but every year I was there until the last two (when they started it posting it to the company's internal network - guess by that time I wasn't the only one asking) I had to explicitly ask to see what, if any, changes had been made when the policy was renewed every year. The insurer can't change the policy during the year, but since most only run one year they certainly can change them annually. And neither your insurer nor your employer has to send you information highlighting the changes outside of whatever they put into the program summary. Such summaries may say nothing more about exclusions than a footnote saying "see actual policy for exclusions". Something covered one year may not be covered the next.

It is confusing, it can be ugly, and it's not for the benefit of the people needing medical care.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Serafina »

Just for comparison, i asked once for "coverage details" (because coverage can be a bit edgy regarding transsexuality) and ever since i am getting about two double-sided pages quoting the relevant parts of my coverage whenever i get a return notification from any bill (tough that's usually for several bills, and also highly repetitive). I doubt that every insurance here does that (and most people certainly won't ask for it), but over here, private insurances actually have to compete with each other - and customers service is a good way to do so.
Also, i got about twenty pages (IIRC) fully detailing my coverage when i signed my contract without asking to do so (since i am signing a contract, i have a legal right to see the information anyway).
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by JME2 »

I'm not surprised by these statistics.

I've seen it firsthand when my mother and one of my aunts were diagnosed. Even with insurance, the cancer treatments pretty much wiped out their finances.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Lonestar »

Didn't Darth Wong post this article (or at least this study) 2 years ago?
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by bobalot »

Lonestar wrote:Didn't Darth Wong post this article (or at least this study) 2 years ago?
I'm not sure. I saw it get posted in another forum I visit and thought people here would be interested. My apologies if it is just rehashing previously posted information.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by weemadando »

Serafina wrote:Just for comparison, i asked once for "coverage details" (because coverage can be a bit edgy regarding transsexuality) and ever since i am getting about two double-sided pages quoting the relevant parts of my coverage whenever i get a return notification from any bill (tough that's usually for several bills, and also highly repetitive). I doubt that every insurance here does that (and most people certainly won't ask for it), but over here, private insurances actually have to compete with each other - and customers service is a good way to do so.
Also, i got about twenty pages (IIRC) fully detailing my coverage when i signed my contract without asking to do so (since i am signing a contract, i have a legal right to see the information anyway).
Every three months (when my private health insurance fees change) I get a summary of what the new fee schedule is, as well as any changes to coverage. And when I say "changes to coverage", I don't mean "hey, guess what, we aren't covering X anymore", it's usually: "By the way, you now get four free dentist visits a year and we've signed deals with X, Y and Z optometrists in your area who you can now see for free, to get your free glasses."

And to head off questions at the pass, I pay about 130 a fortnight to have this level of coverage for myself, my wife and my son. And I'm always left at the end of the year going: "Goddamnit. I didn't use my free massages/get my free running shoes/get a free pair of prescription sunglasses etc this year." In addition to the "extras" cover, we have as part of the policy hospital cover allowing us to use private hospitals for a $500 per year per family excess. But, even with that, the last visit we made was to a public hospital while on holidays as we were taking my son to the ER. And that was all 100% free as it was part of the public system.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Patrick Degan »

To sum up: in America, private health insurance is a racket, which regularly operates on the basis of bait-and-switch, and regularly cheats and loots its customers.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Serafina »

Patrick Degan wrote:To sum up: in America, private health insurance is a racket, which regularly operates on the basis of bait-and-switch, and regularly cheats and loots its customers.
It all boils down to two factors:
-most people do not choose their insurance and are stuck with whatever their employer chooses for them
-those who get to choose apparently do not get proper information about their contracts.

So you basically try to operate a free market without two of it's core pillars - informed choice.
No wonder the system is failing. If you absolutely want free market health care - then do it! It's still a bad choice, but your current system doesn't even follow basic free market principles!

Really, whenever i hear an american politician talking about the free market i have to ask myself "did that guy ever take economics 101?" Because your version of the free market promotes neither information or choice. If you have to enforce those criteria via government intervention, do so. You have done so in the past (Standard Oil and Bell prevented choice and were defeated via government intervention). But evidently you've shifted so far to the right that you've fallen off the scale of common sense and that you don't even understand your own ideology any more.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Patrick Degan »

Serafina wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:To sum up: in America, private health insurance is a racket, which regularly operates on the basis of bait-and-switch, and regularly cheats and loots its customers.
It all boils down to two factors:
-most people do not choose their insurance and are stuck with whatever their employer chooses for them
-those who get to choose apparently do not get proper information about their contracts.

So you basically try to operate a free market without two of it's core pillars - informed choice.
No wonder the system is failing. If you absolutely want free market health care - then do it! It's still a bad choice, but your current system doesn't even follow basic free market principles!

Really, whenever i hear an american politician talking about the free market i have to ask myself "did that guy ever take economics 101?" Because your version of the free market promotes neither information or choice. If you have to enforce those criteria via government intervention, do so. You have done so in the past (Standard Oil and Bell prevented choice and were defeated via government intervention). But evidently you've shifted so far to the right that you've fallen off the scale of common sense and that you don't even understand your own ideology any more.
You're not going to get an argument from me about any of that. I've long maintained that healthcare does not fit into the market paradigm for one very basic reason: no one ever goes to the hospital or sees a doctor out of choice. If you want to live, you HAVE to, especially when you get sick. That nullifies the choice element of the equation altogether. Combined with the lack of information given to ordinary persons so that they cannot possibly make intelligent decisions regarding their healthcare plans and you wind up with what essentially is a racket and one which in any other sphere of commercial activity would lead to criminal prosecutions for fraud and unfair practises.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Serafina »

Well i'd argue that you CAN have some free-market mechanics in healthcare. It's not perfect, but you can have a somewhat well-working system that way.
How to do it? Make health insurance mandatory, make sure that every insurance covers all medical necessities.

So, how can corporations compete under such a system? Simple, offer to pay for better services.
In Germany, you have public health insurances and private ones. The private ones mostly offer things such as: single room in hospitals (when you don't have something infectious, then you'll get one either way), you'll get that routine appointment with your doctor faster (doesn't matter for urgent things), you have a right to see the head of your medical department in your hospital and get treated by him (which you might with public as well when necessary) and other such fancy stuff. It also often includes spa treatments, being paid for hospital stays, money when you have a chronic illness, fancy frames for your glasses, full coverage of cosmetic dental care, treatments for hairloss and similar stuff that does not impact your health, massages and so on.
It does create a two-class medicine where private-insurance patients are way better treated than public-insurance ones. I don't like that aspect one bit - but at least the system is providing working medical insurance and therefore healthcare to everyone.

So free-market elements can clearly work, but i'd still prefer something like the british system.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Dalton »

Just to share an anecdote. A while ago, around 10-12 years I guess, a good friend of mine had just been hired as a staffer. Two weeks after she was hired she found out she was pregnant. The insurance company assured her that she was covered, so she went through all the routine doctor's appointments etc. There was complications and a premature birth, and she was still assured that she was covered. The baby was fine and she pulled through fine as well.

Later, she gets slapped with half a million dollars in medical bills.

The insurance company had determined that she was already pregnant at the time her coverage began, thus her baby was a "pre-existing condition" and therefore she was denied any coverage at all.

Did the insurance company relent? No. She went bankrupt. She had no choice. The insurance company decided to tell her to fuck off.
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weemadando
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by weemadando »

Not to be a total dick, but finding out about a pregnancy 2 weeks in is not rare, but certainly not common... Reasonable doubt and all.

Still a totally bullshit outcome.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Justforfun000 »

Wow...I'm not truly surprised..but I'm disappointed to see these insurance companies act like self-serving mercenaries over compassion and due care you would expect owed to you from such an investment. Again..I'm so thankful I live in Canada..health care is NOT a true issue in the main and I'm very lucky it's a part of our system..available for anyone. I wouldn't move to the States for all the tea in China...I feel looked after here in so many ways...sounds like they throw you to the wolves in the United States at the first excuse they can pull out of their ass...that some do it by sneaking in new policy exclusions without even being up front about it? Disgusting. Truly!
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Simon_Jester »

It doesn't happen to everyone, but it happens to so many people that it's becoming utterly ridiculous as a policy.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by Dalton »

weemadando wrote:Not to be a total dick, but finding out about a pregnancy 2 weeks in is not rare, but certainly not common... Reasonable doubt and all.
Ando, she found out she was pregnant two weeks after being hired. You seem to think I mean she found out she was two weeks pregnant. At that point she was already a few weeks along.
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Re: 60% of bankruptcies due to medical expenses.

Post by weemadando »

Ok, so it was actually a pre existing condition ... So the company was within its (fucked up) rights to deny coverage.

I think it was a recent Freakonomics podcast where they covered the fact that its terribly inefficient and really against the whole "invisible hand of the free market" ideals that the opponents of public healthcare espouse for companies to manage healthcare as they aren't specialists in it. I agree with this, it shouldn't be a corporate responsibility to cover these expenses, but because it is you end up with these fucked situations.
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