EPIC FAIL Master Races

[Darth Hoth]

That's an argument? Way to miss the point. People come for your stuff, and are willing to kill you to take it. Yes, the magnitude is greater (war of the worlds is an all-out invasion, for one), but the ethical problem (it does not belong to them and it is certainly immoral for them to kill you to obtain resources that are not theirs) is identical, and the end results (massive casualties until deus ex machina rescue) are also identical.

Like I said to Simon, I agree the basic themes are very similar. One is, however, still very much more extreme than the other. Which was the only point I really contested.

You are indeed directly incorrect on that. Particularly in the case of the extended cut (which got a full theater release, so canon by any definition) which includes the deliberate use of machine guns on a goddamn school (in retaliation for setting a bulldozer on fire). Yep, murdering (it's only execution if there's some sort of trial) children for vandalism, inside a school, in front of more children. Then hosing the school with gunfire for good measure.

Never watched that one. Heh, sounds like Cameron had second thoughts and decided he had not made the humans EVIL!! enough for the lowest common denominator to "get it" like he wanted them to.

Though, I was thinking of picking up the DVD eventually. Is the extended edition out on its own, or do I have to buy some ultra super special eight-disc BlueRay edition with extra everything and fifty hours' worth of interviews and documentaries I will never watch? If the latter, better settle for the original.

[NecronLord]

Never watched that one. Heh, sounds like Cameron had second thoughts and decided he had not made the humans EVIL!! enough for the lowest common denominator to "get it" like he wanted them to.

That scene was always in the original treatment, was shot in the same block as the rest, and was referenced in the original release, it was merely cut for time, because fucking about in an abandoned schoolhouse isn't the most dramatic bit in the film.

Though, I was thinking of picking up the DVD eventually. Is the extended edition out on its own, or do I have to buy some ultra super special eight-disc BlueRay edition with extra everything and fifty hours' worth of interviews and documentaries I will never watch? If the latter, better settle for the original.

Fuck if I know. I've the original and won't be buying any extended versions until I can get a trilogy box set.

That said, for about five minutes extra material it really does add to the film.

[Zixinus]

How about the Sardukars from Dune? Dune itself has a great deal of wankery.
I admit that I don't remember much, but I found that the author didn't make a clear difference between the difference of kicking someone out of your own home (with the help of environment, ie, Sand-worms) and ruling the Galaxy.
Because we all know, coming from a hell-planet (where everyone lives in primitive and trying environment that they master by heritage) makes you a superior soldier on every other planet.

I mean, what are the Sardukars should have been massacred if they came into a more varied-environment planet with swamps and marshes, or even MUD. But no, from what I remember reading from the Dune series, the Sardukars are always the best of Humanity.

nsert standard Na'vi defense here, suffice to say it's evident from the context that the corporate goons are not permitted to simply bomb them from space or any of the shit internet tough guys usually want to do to them to make sure the guys with guns and way cool rockets win. To do so would probably result in execution or at least perpetual imprisonment upon return to Earth and real authority.

I don't see much reason to defend the Na'Vi: they got their ass handed to them by a PMC armed mostly with small- to middle-arms (thinking of the helicopters) level tech (likely the equivalent of a third-world country in the universe's time). If it wasn't for the PLANET ITSELF interferring in the battle, the Na'Vi would have lost painfully.

I wouldn't call the "Na'vi" a "Master Race" as in a species that can easily dominate humanity: at best, they're more of the sci-fi (and perhaps fiction in general) example of "ideal-race". They are one that are extremely adopted to their environment. Take them in a new environment (such as Earth) and they die a painful death. They cannot handle animals that do not have their organic-USB thingies (which I suddenly have the mental image of it as something to do with mating which translate into... well.. you can get it from here). They organise along the lines of tribes, despite their society developing to the step where mayor tribal conflicts seem to be eliminated.

They're like many other "ideal species" or "ideal humans" you can find scattered among fantasy and sci-fi: the most atrocious one coming to mind is the Barast from the "The Neanderthal Parallax" (I admit that I never read the books myself, but the description alone seems stupid). They are hunter-gatherers that archive advanced level of technology without centralized nuclear power of pollution, have nothing equivalent to religion, are bisexual, have no crime (because they kill a lot of animals and that somehow prevents violence), just to name a few. I am sure you can find others like them.

I would define a Master Race as a species who's innate abilities and social structure is superior to humanity's and can dominate humanity if set in a level playing field.

[Darth Hoth]

How about the Sardukars from Dune? Dune itself has a great deal of wankery.
I admit that I don't remember much, but I found that the author didn't make a clear difference between the difference of kicking someone out of your own home (with the help of environment, ie, Sand-worms) and ruling the Galaxy.
Because we all know, coming from a hell-planet (where everyone lives in primitive and trying environment that they master by heritage) makes you a superior soldier on every other planet.

I mean, what are the Sardukars should have been massacred if they came into a more varied-environment planet with swamps and marshes, or even MUD. But no, from what I remember reading from the Dune series, the Sardukars are always the best of Humanity.

Sounds like you have Sardaukar and Fremen mixed up. The Sardaukar are the elite knife fighters the Emperor recruits for his legions out of the dangerous inner-city gangs on the prison planet Salusa, who can kill ten ordinary troops per head. The Fremen are the super-tough guy desert commandos and holy warriors who kill ten Sardaukar in their sleep in turn.

Other than that, however, you are fairly spot-on.

[NecronLord]

How about the Sardukars from Dune?

Excluded on the basis that their not being all they're cracked up to be is an element of the plot. The Fremen are more of a master race, but within the technological and political constraints of their setting, the case is well put for why they're effective.

I admit that I don't remember much, but I found that the author didn't make a clear difference between the difference of kicking someone out of your own home (with the help of environment, ie, Sand-worms) and ruling the Galaxy.

Indeed you do not remember much. The geopolitical and technological setting of the universe is rigged so that whoever controls the planet Dune controls the known universe. He who controls the spice controls the galaxy. Paul Atredies demonstrated the ability and will to destroy the life cycle of the sandworm, and thus destroy all spice permanently, depriving everyone of FTL. The Spacing Guild, who are utterly Dependant on Spice, thus bowed to his demands and supported his claim to the Imperial Throne. With his enemies unable to ever mount an attack because of their lack of access to the Spacing Guild, it is not possible for his enemies to mount meaningful resistance while his stranglehold on FTL prevails.

Because we all know, coming from a hell-planet (where everyone lives in primitive and trying environment that they master by heritage) makes you a superior soldier on every other planet.

The Fremen aren't really primitive at all, they maintain quite sophisticated technology.

I mean, what are the Sardukars should have been massacred if they came into a more varied-environment planet with swamps and marshes, or even MUD. But no, from what I remember reading from the Dune series, the Sardukars are always the best of Humanity.

Ahah. You're confusing Sarukar with Fremen. Yes, the Fremen would have greater difficulty on other planets, but as their leader can shut down those planets economies with a word, and if he pleases, nuke them to dust, it doesn't matter.

I don't see much reason to defend the Na'Vi: they got their ass handed to them by a PMC armed mostly with small- to middle-arms (thinking of the helicopters) level tech (likely the equivalent of a third-world country in the universe's time). If it wasn't for the PLANET ITSELF interferring in the battle, the Na'Vi would have lost painfully.

That's kinda the point. I'm defending them from the typical 'the humans should just blow up the Na'vi from space, herp derp, how dare those blue aliens beat US MARINES' rant.

[Lord of the Abyss]

You are indeed directly incorrect on that. Particularly in the case of the extended cut (which got a full theater release, so canon by any definition) which includes the deliberate use of machine guns on a goddamn school (in retaliation for setting a bulldozer on fire). Yep, murdering (it's only execution if there's some sort of trial) children for vandalism, inside a school, in front of more children. Then hosing the school with gunfire for good measure.

Never watched that one. Heh, sounds like Cameron had second thoughts and decided he had not made the humans EVIL!! enough for the lowest common denominator to "get it" like he wanted them to.

Considering just how evilly humans have behaved to other humans in similar past situations, if anything Cameron is going easy on them. Just ask the remnants of the American Indian tribes, or the descendants of slaves. Or just listen to the previously mentioned "'the humans should just blow up the Na'vi from space, herp derp, how dare those blue aliens beat US MARINES'" crowd, and imagine what they'd do in that situation.

[lord Martiya]

You're basically saying they should have known it was there despite having no means of knowing it was there.

What I say is that they should have at least checked for traps. Maybe the nukes would have still escaped detection, but at least they would have avoided a very idiotic loss.

Now you've got a case that that's stupid. But it's outside the purview of the thread, because a warcruiser can still take on anything any other young race has to offer and hand its ass to it - it's not inferiority, just spectacular ignorance of foreign customs.

The issue there would be the politics: they were openly provoking a station with a Vorlon onboard, and the previous time that Vorlon had been nearly killed a HUGE Vorlon fleet came to apprehend the suspected culprit or avenge him. What do you think would have happened if Babylon 5 opened fire on Neroon's warcruiser and Neroon destroyed the station with Kosh in it? Somehow, I think that many in Earth Alliance would find Vorlon's payback quite amusing, considered what happened last time that misunderstanding had been done. I know that, without Delenn explaining, Sinclair would have asked for why they were threathening his station, leading to Neroon having to explain that personally (an amusing scene to imagine), but another commander could have panicked and opened fire.
At least the Zentradi, for all their failings, never repeated their mistakes twice, and even learned from them (case in point, the Daedalus attack: the first time, the Zentradi lost a cruiser to that, the second time they used it to board the Macross, revolting it on its users).

[Zixinus]

The geopolitical and technological setting of the universe is rigged so that whoever controls the planet Dune controls the known universe. He who controls the spice controls the galaxy. Paul Atredies demonstrated the ability and will to destroy the life cycle of the sandworm, and thus destroy all spice permanently, depriving everyone of FTL.

Yes, the Fremen would have greater difficulty on other planets, but as their leader can shut down those planets economies with a word, and if he pleases, nuke them to dust, it doesn't matter.

That doesn't speak for the Fremen in general. That just makes them very lucky.

And I remember that there was some holy agreement that the Houses are not to use nuclear weapons against each other. Though, the universal reliance on the Spacer Guild and massive amounts of spice sort of equals things out I guess.

[NecronLord]

That doesn't speak for the Fremen in general. That just makes them very lucky.

That applies to almost all victors. Luck is quite important.

And I remember that there was some holy agreement that the Houses are not to use nuclear weapons against each other. Though, the universal reliance on the Spacer Guild and massive amounts of spice sort of equals things out I guess.

There is indeed. Paul did however, IIRC, at least threaten to use them during his crusades.

[NecronLord]

What I say is that they should have at least checked for traps. Maybe the nukes would have still escaped detection, but at least they would have avoided a very idiotic loss.

How do you know they didn't? Those nukes were tiny. The size of a tyre, and bolted to an asteroid. One of them was even seen to be on the opposite side of the asteroid from the Black Star. How would they detect them?

Have you actually seen this film recently?



It's not Battlestar Galactica, no one on the bridge of the Black Star's conveniently going to shout out 'Radiological Alarm' the moment there's a nuke around.

Do you know Kosh was aboard the station during Legacies? He's not in the cast list, and was said to frequently leave the station from time to time. That's something Neroon could probably check if he wanted to cause an incident.

[Shroom Man 777]

I don't think the RDA was using bulldozers as weapons. When the bulldozers ran over the sacred place it was a shocking event. It a blatant dick move by Quartich to escalate. Until then the RDA had not been using those heavy vehicles as destructive tools against other people. Before that the dozers were doing purely earth moving tasks.

Regarding territory I think this is a complex issue. Yes it's true that the Navi live on Pandora. But do they own the whole planet ? We live in the solar system. But we do we own the star system ? If say some superadvanced race started mining our moon for HE3 would we have right to protest ?

Anyway if the RDA activity was harming Navi livelihood they would have a point. But I don't think the Navi ever gave a reason. Pandoras eco system is vast and robust and guided by a planetmind. The Navi themselves were unaffected by RDAs small scale operation. If anyone would be upset it would be the planetmind.

Those bulldozers were already on a path towards the Home Tree at the beginning of the movie. They had to trample over so much forest, so it took them months. When Quaritch conspired with Jake, those bulldozers were already on their way. Which was why Jake's infiltration mission had a time limit.

So, were those bulldozers not crushing their way through Na'vi territory on their way to the Home Tree? You claim that they weren't in Na'vi territory. But look at what RDA did to the Home Tree and the Sacred Glowy Trees. The RDA doesn't give a shit about violating their territory.

You pick the shittiest metaphors by the way. There's a difference between mining in fucking space, and bulldozers smashing their way towards your home (tree). Is it so inconceivable to your brain that Na'vi territory might, I dunno, extend around the Home Tree and go outwards beyond their immediate vicinity?

They are very hard to kill. This implies that they've actually had fatal engagements with the Na'vi before, perhaps. Who shot first? Who knows.

Yeah. You are right. RDA must have had gunfights with the Navi before. The fact that they had enough biological knowledge on Navi to build avatars implies they had samples...

But the thing is RDA mercenaries were kept on a short leash. Civlian scientists like Grace seem to have lot more power than they did. It was only at the end that Quartich and his men were allowed to actually go out and kill the Navi in an offensive action.

Uh, nobody listened to Grace. The RDA was dead set on evicting the Home Tree and Quaritch was already conspiring with Jake Sully to get attack plans on the Home Tree at the early part of the movie.

Dude, the RDA had no intentions of not destroying the Home Tree and stripmining the Na'vi's land, an act that would require offensive action. What movie have you been watching?

Yeah, they could've been total dicks and, I dunno, like totally ignored the wishes of a sovereign nation and sent their armored vehicles to violate their territory and destroy their food sources (hunting grounds) while making their way to the Na'vi's population centers with explicit intent to depopulate them!

Thank goodness the RDA never did that. Oh wait.

It's a big planet though. And Navi numbers are quite small. Jake gathered what ? 2000 fighting age people including some females ? And he had to travel everywhere from plains to the seas to find that many. I am sure some kind of territorial agreement is possible considering the Navi are not numerous to use most the planets surface.

It's their fucking land. Why should they move for a bunch of foreign humans who want to destroy their land and mine shit? Would YOU and your family leave your home if some assholes wanted to kick you out? Bangladesh is a big planet and the Sarevok family is quite small too.

Did you replace the clear glass canopy on your TV screen with an opaque slab of armor?

I am thinking of purchasing an unused Mig-17 cockpit so I can sit in it while watching TV.

Better paint those canopies black so they won't be clear!

The RDA wanted to depopulate the Na'vi and destroy their home. Even before the beginning of their movie, their bulldozers were already on the way. Tell me, if a bunch of assholes were going to wreck your home, and they won't stop no matter what you tell them, and their unstoppable bulldozer is on its way (to wreck your home)... wouldn't you throw rocks (or arrows) at those bulldozers?

They did not want to depopulate the Navi though. Neither destroy their homes either. They wanted the mineral deposit that sits below hometree. The RDA went through great lengths to find a new home for the Navi. They built those expensive Avatar bodies and shipped them to Pandora just for this. It must have cost a fortune to develop that tech that they would not have spent if they were just greedy.

They wanted to depopulate the Na'vi in the second battle, when Quarritch wanted to drop a fucking bomb in the middle of the refugee camp.

They DID want to destroy their homes. What the hell was it you think they did to the Home Tree? Acquiring the mineral deposit that sits below the home tree requires destroying their homes.

What the RDA did not understand was that the hometree was far too culturally important for the Navi to be abandoned. Just like certain historial sites are to humans. It was Jakes job to live amongst the Navi and find out about this. And he failed miserbly.

I don't think we can automatically assume RDA had their mind set about getting to Hometree at any cost. They had an entire planet and hometree was just one particular deposit of unobtainium. The RDA already spent tremendous resources building links with the Navi so it does not make sense to nuke that investment.

On the Navi side we did not really see Jake do any attempts to do diplomacy. His entire stay was spent enjoying himself with Neytiri...

The Navi were (rightfully) much more stubborn than RDA. But there was still a small chance they might have agreed to move. Jake did not help there either.

Then again, the RDA is not a singular entity. There could have been parties and interest groups who wanted to do the Avatar program to communicate with the Na'vi. But there could've been OTHER groups that wanted no such thing, and simply wanted the resources, blue people be damned.

Sarevok, if the RDA did not have their mind set about getting Home Tree at any cost, why didn't they just find another site when the Na'vi said no?

Thing is if RDA were extremists they would have gotten rid of the Navi on day 1 of arriving. If their only goal was to kill the Navi and take their land they could have done it much more easily and won.

Their goal was to take the Na'vi's land, and they DID do that. The bulldozers just took months to get there, because they had to cut through an entire forest to get there. The bulldozers were already on their way before Jake was on the planet! Or, at least, they were already on their way to the Home Tree in the early part of the movie.

[Stofsk]

That doesn't speak for the Fremen in general. That just makes them very lucky.

That applies to almost all victors. Luck is quite important.

I think your other point about how Paul had control of the spacing guild means more to be honest, in accounting for the Fremen's success when they went on jihad. With space supremacy you can control worlds, blockade them, starve them out, raid them or commit to a full invasion. All the options are open to the Fremen as to how to proceed. For the defenders, they're up shit creek without a paddle. Luck certainly played a part but the overwhelming advantage Paul and the Fremen had was mobility.

And I remember that there was some holy agreement that the Houses are not to use nuclear weapons against each other. Though, the universal reliance on the Spacer Guild and massive amounts of spice sort of equals things out I guess.

There is indeed. Paul did however, IIRC, at least threaten to use them during his crusades.

I don't remember that. Paul used atomics to go through the shield wall rather than go another circuitous route, and Emperor Shaddam made some noise about it, but it was just noise. Paul was careful not to target anyone with the atomics and used them against the environment only, because the conventions would mean the other houses would use atomics as well. It's possibly I may not be remembering it fully though - it has been many years since I read Dune.

[Metahive]

Paul took care to only use the atomics against a natural obstacle instead of people to leave the Spacing Guild with an "out" to ignore the "instant nuclear retaliation against any first-striker" policy during his bid for the throne. At the same time however he knew that the Spacing Guild would never authorize the nuclear annihilation of the one source of Spice in the universe once he was firmly in the saddle so from that point on he was pretty much untouchable as far as nuclear retaliation goes and therefore free to monopolize their use if he so desired.

It didn't prevent his enemies from using a more specialized nuclear device, a stone-burner, against him though.

Another thing, just because the Na'vi are exceptionally well adapted to their environment doesn't mean they're Mary Sues. Also, that humans tried the glass beads approach before deciding to simply rob their stuff doesn't make them that much better than the invading Martians from War of the Worlds or the Interstellar Garbage Gang from Battle: LA.

[Whiskey144]

Another thing, just because the Na'vi are exceptionally well adapted to their environment doesn't mean they're Mary Sues. Also, that humans tried the glass beads approach before deciding to simply rob their stuff doesn't make them that much better than the invading Martians from War of the Worlds or the Interstellar Garbage Gang from Battle: LA.

I don't think that that's the reason that the Na'vi are considered to be Mary Sues. Because the IGG from Battle:LA and the Martians in War of the Worlds are never (AFAIK, anyway) portrayed as better than us (humans), but the Na'vi are.

That the Na'vi are portrayed as better than humans is fine, to a certain point. Because the Na'vi are portrayed as better because they shun all technology in favor of all this earth-mother-worship crap, is really what makes them Mary Sue-ish. TBH, I'd love to see a Battle:LA/Avatar crossover of IGGvsNa'vi. Because that would be awesomely entertaining, IMO.

[Simon_Jester]

I think you're reading way too much into "the Na'vi are portrayed as better than humans." They come off as better mostly because their aspirations in the movie are so unambiguously reasonable: they want to be left alone and not have their homes and holy places destroyed to make room for a strip-mine, whereas humans want to not leave the Na'vi alone and to destroy the Na'vi homes and holy places to make room for a strip-mine.

About the only basis for saying that the Na'vi are qualitatively 'better' than humans is a handful of musings by Jake Sully, who's a very biased observer, because the Na'vi can offer him the life he wants (a highly physical existence with a working spinal column) more easily than the humans can.

Well, that and their reluctance to trade with humans. Which is totally understandable, since humans are basically offering them glass beads in hopes that they'll all pack up and abandon their homes, while tearing the hell out of the landscape and riling up all sorts of dangerous wildlife. I wouldn't expect the Na'vi to take the deal either, and not because I consider them to be greater-than-human.

[Zixinus]

The other problem is that the Na'Vi simply don't have any use for almost anything that the humans can offer:
- better weapons? There appears to be little to no tribal warfare, so it would be pointless. For hunting, they have tools that are much more refined for the purpose.
- education? what for? Their hunter-gatherer lifestlye has little use for advanced mathematics and without an industrial revolution, most hard sciences are useless to them (this is assuming that there is no culture clash).
- better medical care? Assuming that they even need it, there is the question whether the humans can even realistically provide it: they would be selling medical care to aliens (how well do they know the physiology to do it?)
- more food? the Na'Vi may already have all the agricultural power they need. Plus, the changes required might clash against their culture.

So, what we are looking at is a stone-age level culture that is somewhere between hunter-gatherer and primitive agriculture (I think, I need to the get the director's cut), with no centralized power (apparently) and no desire (or even no reason) to "advance" their civilization to industrial point.

[Simon_Jester]

The other problem is that the Na'Vi simply don't have any use for almost anything that the humans can offer:
- better weapons? There appears to be little to no tribal warfare, so it would be pointless. For hunting, they have tools that are much more refined for the purpose.
- education? what for? Their hunter-gatherer lifestlye has little use for advanced mathematics and without an industrial revolution, most hard sciences are useless to them (this is assuming that there is no culture clash).
- better medical care? Assuming that they even need it, there is the question whether the humans can even realistically provide it: they would be selling medical care to aliens (how well do they know the physiology to do it?)
- more food? the Na'Vi may already have all the agricultural power they need. Plus, the changes required might clash against their culture.

So, what we are looking at is a stone-age level culture that is somewhere between hunter-gatherer and primitive agriculture (I think, I need to the get the director's cut), with no centralized power (apparently) and no desire (or even no reason) to "advance" their civilization to industrial point.

Medical care would be a big point, and humans should be able to supply that since their grasp of native biology is advanced enough to create the avatars in the first place. But I'm not sure that could or would motivate the Na'vi to do the only thing RDA actually cares about making them do enough to offer medical care- which would be to abandon their homes and holy sites.

As for the rest, yes, the Na'vi are successful hunter-gatherers and have food and resources adequate to their perceived needs. About the only way to really get 'market penetration' with human goods would be with metal tools and drugs. Drugs would require the collaboration of the scientific corps on Pandora which would probably not be forthcoming; I don't know why the RDA didn't make a serious attempt to get knives or metal pottery to the Na'vi, but they didn't.

Then again, that wouldn't get them to abandon their homes and holy sites either. I mean really, how would you get them to leave their homes without use of force?

[NecronLord]

The other problem is that the Na'Vi simply don't have any use for almost anything that the humans can offer:
- better weapons? There appears to be little to no tribal warfare, so it would be pointless. For hunting, they have tools that are much more refined for the purpose.
- education? what for? Their hunter-gatherer lifestlye has little use for advanced mathematics and without an industrial revolution, most hard sciences are useless to them (this is assuming that there is no culture clash).

They were indeed interested, until it turned out that going to a human school involves getting shot down with machine guns - they went cold on that idea about that point.

And that's about the level of the humans' negotiation and willing to provide recompense.

[mr friendly guy]

How do people feel that the Na'vi are potrayed better than humans and Mary Sues? They are better in some ways, inferior in others. How do you judge they are better overall? Which criteria are you interested in?

They are inferior technologically. Since RDA were being total dicks its fair to say the Na'vi have the moral high ground. Unless you are a RDA apologist, then you say the Na'vi were just potrayed as morally superior.

In fact I am going to hazard a guess that people accusing the Na'vi of being shown better than us use 2 criteria. One - they are the good guys, and two - they won. Which pretty much emcompasses most works of fiction, but not all the good guys in these works are Mary Sues.

On another note, someone needs to make a stick titled : Avatar - military wankers please read first, in a similar manner to the master chief wankers please read first thread. Its getting tiresome people bringing the same thing up again.

[kaeneth]

Just compiling a list of "Master Races" whose supposed mastery is heavily dependent upon their enemies' extreme stupidity and utterly passive behavior, and who would collapse like the Soviet Union if it fought against a true superpower- the Draka being one famous example. Any other EPIC FAIL Master Races whose mastery is mainly a figment of the imagination of writers acting like internet trolls?

How about the Psychlos from Battlefield Earth? IIRC, they literally depended upon the stupidity of their human slaves, who were superstitious and ignorant. It wasn't until one of them (or more) was hooked up to a Psychlo teaching machine that humanity suddenly grew a pair and fought back.

The move was stupid beyond belief but yes that is how it portrays it.

The book was at least marginally decent Sci-Fi 'I don't have to be completely brain dead to read this and enjoy it'.

Basically, the Psychlos were fine...until one of them went and did something stupid (enslaving humans in a get rich quick scheme because he is stuck on a backwater - Earth - 'indefinitely') and arrogant (assuming he could keep a human with all of the Psychlo's knowledge) in line (The psychlo is so dumb as to let the protagonist to do the negotiating in a language he doesn't understand, allowing the protag to recruit people without even having to attempt a façade). So, the Psychlos weren't too bad....until you realize the loss of any of their colony worlds can result in their total annihilation via nuclear weapons setting off their planet's atmosphere.

[lord Martiya]

How do you know they didn't? Those nukes were tiny. The size of a tyre, and bolted to an asteroid. One of them was even seen to be on the opposite side of the asteroid from the Black Star. How would they detect them?

I know those weapons were THAT small and that Vorlons and Shadows missed bigged nukes, so, even if they tried, the Minbari would have probably failed to detect them, unless they sent one or more scouts and the pilot saw a nuke by chance. But I also know that the Lexington's crew detected only the Black Star, no fighter or flyer used as a scout (more expendable than the flagship) nor unmanned probes (even more expendable). And I still have to concede this part because fighters and fliers were smaller than a warcruiser and with stealth active there was no way the Lexington would detect them, so I can't prove there was no scout or probe, and the Black Star coming with stealth inactive (as it seemed) wasn't all that suicidal with the only enemy being a crippled ship.

Do you know Kosh was aboard the station during Legacies? He's not in the cast list, and was said to frequently leave the station from time to time. That's something Neroon could probably check if he wanted to cause an incident.

The problem with Kosh is that he never tells when he's leaving (you tend to find out when he asks clearance for departing) nor when he returns (you find out when he actives the jumpgate), so you can't count on him not to return at the worst possible moment for whatever you need him away. Case in point, Morden in the episode Signs and Portents: his first visit to the station was timed to coincide with Kosh being away, but when he went to Sinclair the Vorlon suddenly appeared and told him and his 'associates' to go away. If Neroon counted on him being away, Kosh could have just returned a couple minutes before his arrival for some unexplained reason, maybe giving the impression he was doing that just for shit and giggles (in Deathwalker his transaction gave that impression before Garibaldi and Sinclair explained he had some ulterior reason).

[NecronLord]

On another note, someone needs to make a stick titled : Avatar - military wankers please read first, in a similar manner to the master chief wankers please read first thread. Its getting tiresome people bringing the same thing up again.

I agree. Expect one by the weekend.

[Ahriman238]

mr friendly guy wrote:

On another note, someone needs to make a stick titled : Avatar - military wankers please read first, in a similar manner to the master chief wankers please read first thread. Its getting tiresome people bringing the same thing up again.

I agree. Expect one by the weekend.

Yay.

Back on-topic. I've heard people on this board describe the town of Grantvill and it's residents from '1632' this way. As being completly dependant on authorial fiat to survive, much less prosper. I won't say yay or nay, but I'd love to hear the reasoning.

How about the Tau from 40k? I think even the writers have said that they'd have been crushed like countless other lesser xenos, except that every major offensive gets bogged down and then the Imperium suddenly discovers bigger priorities (i.e. Tyranids.)

[Kingmaker]

Always good to see people going full retard over Avatar.

I've heard people on this board describe the town of Grantvill and it's residents from '1632' this way. As being completly dependant on authorial fiat to survive, much less prosper. I won't say yay or nay, but I'd love to hear the reasoning.

Bear witness. (Thanas going through and explaining just what is wrong with those books).

The Tau have the excuse of genuine technological superiority (I think - anyone better versed in WH40k tech correct me if I'm wrong) and the Imperium having much, much, much worse problems to deal with. Compared to Chaos, the Necrons, and the Orks, the Tau practically don't show up. The opportunity cost of crushing the Tau, or doing anything other than half-assedly holding the line, is too high. Those forces could be used elsewhere fighting soul-eating monstrosities that can do more damage to the Imperium in an hour than the Tau can in a year.
I hardly think "too pathetic on a galactic scale to waste effort killing" qualifies as Master Race.

[Whiskey144]

The Tau have the excuse of genuine technological superiority (I think - anyone better versed in WH40k tech correct me if I'm wrong) and the Imperium having much, much, much worse problems to deal with. Compared to Chaos, the Necrons, and the Orks, the Tau practically don't show up. The opportunity cost of crushing the Tau, or doing anything other than half-assedly holding the line, is too high. Those forces could be used elsewhere fighting soul-eating monstrosities that can do more damage to the Imperium in an hour than the Tau can in a year.

The tau aren't technologically superior to the Imperium overall. TBH, 99% of the gear the Tau use, the Imperium could quite likely replicate with relative ease. Where the illusion of tech superiority comes is that the average Tau infantryman is equipped with a longer-ranged, more lethal weapon and somewhat superior body armor than the average Guardsman.

But the main reason the Tau haven't been squished into pasty blue (grey?) stains is that on an astrographic scale, they consist of a sector-sized polity. They simply aren't large enough to be a legitimate threat to Imperial security on the scale of, say, Orks, Chaos, or the Tyranids.

I hardly think "too pathetic on a galactic scale to waste effort killing" qualifies as Master Race.

Ahriman was describing the whole "depends on authorial fiat to survive" part. Which the Tau actually do require, as 99% of Imperial/Tau conflicts that end up in Tau favor tend to do so by virtue of Imperial politicking and/or more important threats getting in the way.