Modern Firearms vs Mass Effect Defenses

[Whiskey144]

So, ME-buffs amongst the SD.Net population, what is your opinion on the following:

Could a modern (circa late 20th/early 21st century) weapon defeat an infantry target protected by ME-verse infantry defenses? That is, could, say, a Desert Eagle, easily kill a person protected by a hardsuit and kinetic barriers?

My opinion is that yes, it could, though not due to higher energy, but rather momentum. The reasoning being that ME-verse mass accelerators are high on KE, but low on momentum, and that (at least infantry-based) kinetic barriers are designed to deflect "slap away" projectiles.

The other bit is that, depending on said modern weapon, the shot could be below the threshold for a kinetic barrier to block. The first possibility has much more promise and is less finicky, IMO.

So, what say you?

[KlavoHunter]

From seeing people surviving gunshots in Mass Effect, it doesn't seem like their future bullets are all that much more powerful than modern-day stuff, it's just that they have well-nigh divorced themselves from logistics by only needing to dissipate heat to fire, and sticking an new ammo block for the tiny tiny slivers every 10,000+ shots.

Defense has outpaced offense in Mass Effect-verse, with Kinetic Barriers being so awesome and recharge-y, keeping my suspension of disbelief totally intact whilst Shepard banters with the enemy you're about to waste before everyone dives for cover and starts shooting.

I think that someone armed with modern-day small-arms could put down someone in Mass Effect infantry armor, assuming they hit them enough, quickly enough, to drop the kinetic barrier and then deal enough damage through the armor that all the medigel in the galaxy isn't gonna save 'em... Assuming he doesn't drop your practically naked in comparison ass with a roughly-equally-lethal weapon.

[open_sketchbook]

This is more of a logic thing than a quantification, but wouldn't people just use conventional firearms if they would defeat shields and hardsuits? It's not hard evidence, but I feel it needs to be said.

[Whiskey144]

This is more of a logic thing than a quantification, but wouldn't people just use conventional firearms if they would defeat shields and hardsuits? It's not hard evidence, but I feel it needs to be said.

I think that it would be a possibility, but doesn't occur for a couple of reasons.

1) We aren't actually told whether or not the other Citadel races (or alien species in general) have actually developed gunpowder weapons. I think it's reasonable to assume that most, if not all, have developed some kind of chemical-propellant projectile weapon, but they may have discovered mass accelerators (and/or mass effect field tech) so soon after that they never pursued development of chemfuel projectile weapons.

2) The big one I can think of is logistics; if you don't need to sacrifice killing power, and you can get a lot more reliability, logistics independence, compactness, and low-weight capability, then you'd likely ditch gunpowder. The biggest concern with modern firearms is getting them lighter, because current infantrymen have to carry such heavy warloads already.

In fact, a notable item that comes to (my) mind (at least), is the US LSAT program. It's intended to produce a next-gen, lightweight LMG to replace the M-249 SAW. The goals are working on significant weight reduction and increased reliability, whilst maintaining lethality. The primary methods to accomplish this are either composite/plastic-cased or caseless rounds, "telescoped" in both cases, as well as building the weapon out of a high (60% or more, IIRC) proportion of composite or ceramic materials.

So at a guess, most ME races/factions/groups/whatever don't use gunpowder because a mass accelerator is a cheaper, lighter, and more compact weapon.

My main idea with modern gear being able to take down ME-verse infantry is: momentum, and/or velocity threshold. Because ME-verse kinetic weapons have very little momentum (going on the whole, high-velocity sand-grain-sized-bullets), they likely have very little resistance to high-momentum projectiles. It's simply not a threat they must face.

[Caiaphas]

I think the only reason ME weapons go ping-ping-ping off of kinetic barriers is the lack of momentum. I am by no means a weapons expert, but my understanding of weapons technology is that you want the greatest momentum possible so that the bullet "follows through" into the body or armor.

Now, ME projectiles are apparently just little bits of sand accelerated to appreciable fractions of the speed of light. Lots of KE, but little momentum; DE bullets, on the other hand, are low on KE and high on momentum. It would therefore be a lot harder for a kinetic barrier to slow and stop a modern bullet.

So, in a nutshell, the Desert Eagle would probably penetrate the kinetic barrier, but the question of armor is still in the air.

The other bit is that, depending on said modern weapon, the shot could be below the threshold for a kinetic barrier to block.

I dunno about this one. I mean, if you punch someone in-game, the hit still impacts against their shields, right? Can anyone confirm?

[open_sketchbook]

This is more of a logic thing than a quantification, but wouldn't people just use conventional firearms if they would defeat shields and hardsuits? It's not hard evidence, but I feel it needs to be said.

1) We aren't actually told whether or not the other Citadel races (or alien species in general) have actually developed gunpowder weapons. I think it's reasonable to assume that most, if not all, have developed some kind of chemical-propellant projectile weapon, but they may have discovered mass accelerators (and/or mass effect field tech) so soon after that they never pursued development of chemfuel projectile weapons.

Ok, well, if momentum is all you need, why not just make the mass accelerator rounds bigger? Lethality is still key; you can carry a million rounds on your person and if you die from one mook who packed a 9mill and a kinetic barrier your gun won't kill, then your super-light ultratactical spartamericafreedom mass acceleration weapon is pretty useless. Besides, we don't actually know the momentum of the weapon is that low; considering mass altering technology, the mass of the rounds might be artificially increased for greater impact in the first place, which would explain the blue streaks behind the rounds as mass effect fields.

Besides, the encyclopedia mentions that a kenetic barrier might "throw a chair across the room" without filtering out low velocity objects. Metaphorically, but still; force like that might be sufficient to punch a conventional bullet out of the way.

[Lord of the Abyss]

The other bit is that, depending on said modern weapon, the shot could be below the threshold for a kinetic barrier to block. The first possibility has much more promise and is less finicky, IMO.

I really doubt that would be true of bullets, since bullets are already traveling quite a lot faster than anything you want to hit you. As said, the point of the velocity limit is to keep it from flinging away furniture and such. I wonder how effective a flamethrower would be though.

[Starglider]

I think the only reason ME weapons go ping-ping-ping off of kinetic barriers is the lack of momentum.

This is a completely unjustified assumption. There is no evidence that momentum is relevant to penetrating barriers, as opposed to KE. In fact in game the personal shields work against kicks and punches, and the starship shields work against large chunks of debris, both good evidence for shield penetration being limited by KE only. High momentum attacks may have the slight benefit of knockback (on infantry) and/or more stress on the shield generator mountings (for starships) but that's all.

So, in a nutshell, the Desert Eagle would probably penetrate the kinetic barrier

If this was true everyone in the setting would be using slow big slug-throwers. It's not as if Sheppard's team is averse to using bulky/exotic/impractical weaponry when it gets the job done.

[Xon]

I really doubt that would be true of bullets, since bullets are already traveling quite a lot faster than anything you want to hit you. As said, the point of the velocity limit is to keep it from flinging away furniture and such. I wonder how effective a flamethrower would be though.

Mass Effect soliders are still in fullbody suits of armor which can at a high end can survive an unplanned deorbit around an ice world with near-earth-like gravity without the human body inside being tuned into jam. Sure Shepard was completely fucked over, but you have a DLC mission to go kick up the old N7 helmat which survived structually intact with only the faceplate collapsed. Cerberus was worried about that Shepard died due to suffocation before deorbitting, not the physical shock to the head liquefying the brain.

If this was true everyone in the setting would be using slow big slug-throwers. It's not as if Sheppard's team is averse to using bulky/exotic/impractical weaponry when it gets the job done.

Another point is it explicitly stated in the in-universe descriptions of the massive hand cannon pistols that they are better against armor than shields. It's the rapid firing light SMGs which are explicitly better at depleating shields.

M-6 Carnifex

Highly accurate and lethal sidearm. Effective against armor; weak against shields and biotic barriers. Upgrades the Predator heavy pistol.

The Carnifex is a favored sidearm of mercenary leaders and Eclipse mercenary tech specialists. An expensive but powerful weapon. Its marketing materials feature a charging krogan with the slogan, "Don't you wish Carnifex was at your side?"

M-5 Phalanx

Highly accurate and lethal sidearm. Effective against armor; weak against shields and biotic barriers. Upgrades the Predator heavy pistol.

The M5 Phalanx is the product of the Alliance's Offensive Handgun Project that developed a close-in weapon to be used on armored or shielded targets with no loss of stopping power in comparison to the soldier's assault rifle. The Phalanx enjoys a ballistics advantage even over most "hand cannons" and features an integral laser sight which is highly visible even in bright lighting conditions. Civilian variants are often purchased by colonists on planets that have particularly dangerous big game animals.

compared to;

M-4 Shuriken

A common but effective submachine gun. Fire three-round bursts, and can be pulsed for a higher rate of fire at the expense of accuracy. Very effective against shields and biotic barriers.
As kinetic barriers have grown in popularity, so has the popularity of submachine guns. Manufactured by the Elkoss Combine, the Shuriken machine pistol has a reputation for being deadly and easy to use, but is weak against armor.

M-12 Locust

The Kassa Fabrications Model 12 Locust is a compact submachine gun developed for the Alliance but now favored by gang enforcers and hitmen. Featuring a complex recoil-reducing mechanism and high-grade autotargeting software, the Locust delivers longer-range, more accurate fire than others in its class.

[Whiskey144]

Ok, well, if momentum is all you need, why not just make the mass accelerator rounds bigger? Lethality is still key; you can carry a million rounds on your person and if you die from one mook who packed a 9mill and a kinetic barrier your gun won't kill, then your super-light ultratactical spartamericafreedom mass acceleration weapon is pretty useless. Besides, we don't actually know the momentum of the weapon is that low; considering mass altering technology, the mass of the rounds might be artificially increased for greater impact in the first place, which would explain the blue streaks behind the rounds as mass effect fields.

Besides, the encyclopedia mentions that a kenetic barrier might "throw a chair across the room" without filtering out low velocity objects. Metaphorically, but still; force like that might be sufficient to punch a conventional bullet out of the way.

WRT "why not make accelerator rounds bigger", it's quite possible that there could be some kind of limit to how big they can make the slugs whilst remaining relative logistics independence. Using a bigger block wouldn't solve the problem either, because that would make the weapon bigger&heavier, as well as less easy to collapse. Which is a pretty big no-no, from what I understand of military technology progression trends.

I really doubt that would be true of bullets, since bullets are already traveling quite a lot faster than anything you want to hit you. As said, the point of the velocity limit is to keep it from flinging away furniture and such. I wonder how effective a flamethrower would be though.

The main reason I brought it up is that the Codex entry given on the wiki explicitly states that the kinetic barriers are designed to deflect small objects moving at rapid velocity. Said entry also gives that as the reason for being able to sit down in a chair.

This is a completely unjustified assumption. There is no evidence that momentum is relevant to penetrating barriers, as opposed to KE. In fact in game the personal shields work against kicks and punches, and the starship shields work against large chunks of debris, both good evidence for shield penetration being limited by KE only. High momentum attacks may have the slight benefit of knockback (on infantry) and/or more stress on the shield generator mountings (for starships) but that's all.

I dunno though; the Codex entry for personal shields explicitly states that it deflects small, high-velocity objects. The writers have said before that Codex>gameplay/cutscenes/whatever, so in this case I'm not sure what we have to go on. TBH, my main reasoning behind "high momentum=shield defeat" is that the kinetic barriers wouldn't have the power to deflect such a high-momentum projectile.

Mass Effect soliders are still in fullbody suits of armor which can at a high end can survive an unplanned deorbit around an ice world with near-earth-like gravity without the human body inside being tuned into jam. Sure Shepard was completely fucked over, but you have a DLC mission to go kick up the old N7 helmat which survived structually intact with only the faceplate collapsed. Cerberus was worried about that Shepard died due to suffocation before deorbitting, not the physical shock to the head liquefying the brain.

TBH, I have no idea how we could figure out how that incident fits into this. However, I think it's odd that the hardsuits can survive that, but the Codex entry explicitly says that they aren't designed to protect against extremes of temperature (which would be present in a reentry).

Another point is it explicitly stated in the in-universe descriptions of the massive hand cannon pistols that they are better against armor than shields. It's the rapid firing light SMGs which are explicitly better at depleating shields.

In-universe, I'd guess at it being because the relative hail of fire the SMGs spit out compared to the pistols simply has more aggregate damage than one or two hits from the hand cannons. However, AFAIK, ME-verse weapons tend to almost invariably fire small projectiles at high velocity. While the hand cannon shots would have relatively higher momentum, I doubt that they'd have the kick of said Desert Eagle as mentioned in my OP.

I think the only reason ME weapons go ping-ping-ping off of kinetic barriers is the lack of momentum. I am by no means a weapons expert, but my understanding of weapons technology is that you want the greatest momentum possible so that the bullet "follows through" into the body or armor.

Now, ME projectiles are apparently just little bits of sand accelerated to appreciable fractions of the speed of light. Lots of KE, but little momentum; DE bullets, on the other hand, are low on KE and high on momentum. It would therefore be a lot harder for a kinetic barrier to slow and stop a modern bullet.

So, in a nutshell, the Desert Eagle would probably penetrate the kinetic barrier, but the question of armor is still in the air.

I'm skeptical that a handgun of the power of the DE would punch through in a single shot, but I doubt that an entire clip would be necessary, particularly for a DE chambered in .50 Action Express. Maybe up to half magazine to deal with the shields, and then the rest for the guy underneath.

Having gone back over some in-universe Codex descriptions given by the wiki, I can think of a (possibly) legitimate reason that the ME races wouldn't use heavier slugs: they wouldn't have enough space for the advanced software that is present in the weapons. It's also possible that by using heavier slugs they would have greater difficulty in doing field alterations of the weapons munition system (as in, swapping ammo type mid-battle).

EDIT:

If this was true everyone in the setting would be using slow big slug-throwers. It's not as if Sheppard's team is averse to using bulky/exotic/impractical weaponry when it gets the job done.

It's quite possible that nobody uses said weapons because mass accelerators are far cheaper and more reliable (ME1-era guns didn't run out of ammo-at all!), or it's possible that, given the relative youth of humanity, mankind is the only species that would have fairly recent knowledge of building low-velocity, high-momentum (relatively-speaking) slugthrowers.

As a result, then, I'd hazard a guess that there simply isn't anybody around that has thorough (or particularly good, for that matter) working knowledge of high-momentum type slugthrowers.

[Ritterin Sophia]

From seeing people surviving gunshots in Mass Effect, it doesn't seem like their future bullets are all that much more powerful than modern-day stuff, it's just that they have well-nigh divorced themselves from logistics by only needing to dissipate heat to fire, and sticking an new ammo block for the tiny tiny slivers every 10,000+ shots.

Everyone we've seen survive a shot also had access to a kinetic barrier, IIRC the novel Revelation depicts a Systems Alliance standard-issue pistol completely severing the arm of a guy unprotected by kinetic barriers. We've also got weapons like the M-98 Widow and the M-300 Claymore which despite ME recoil dampening can shatter the arms of baseline humans who try to fire them without support.

There is no evidence that momentum is relevant to penetrating barriers, as opposed to KE. In fact in game the personal shields work against kicks and punches, and the starship shields work against large chunks of debris, both good evidence for shield penetration being limited by KE only. High momentum attacks may have the slight benefit of knockback (on infantry) and/or more stress on the shield generator mountings (for starships) but that's all.

In-game, Codex says differently. And in the novelizations punches and kicks get through just fine, that said anything faster than a punch or a kick is getting deflected.

[Starglider]

I dunno though; the Codex entry for personal shields explicitly states that it deflects small, high-velocity objects.

Most humans would consider a pistol bullet to be a small, high-velocity object. I am pretty sure the writers did. Personal shields are configured not to block large slow objects because this would be inconvenient (for movement), not because they lack the capability. We know that mass effect fields can apply force to even static objects, because we see force fields being used as 'virtual walls' (e.g. when the Mako was stopped on Ilos).

TBH, my main reasoning behind "high momentum=shield defeat" is that the kinetic barriers wouldn't have the power to deflect such a high-momentum projectile.

'Power' is energy/time, energy is KE. Momentum has no direct relationship to power; you are making that up.

If this was true everyone in the setting would be using slow big slug-throwers. It's not as if Sheppard's team is averse to using bulky/exotic/impractical weaponry when it gets the job done.

It's quite possible that nobody uses said weapons because mass accelerators are far cheaper and more reliable (ME1-era guns didn't run out of ammo-at all!),

ME2 features rocket and grenade launchers. Shields work against both the kinetic impact, shrapnel and blast of these weapons; you can literally catch a rocket with your face and survive, albeit with your shields drained. Clearly large projectile launchers are widely used, so there is no reason why a machine gun wouldn't be if it actually worked. Clearly, this sort of weapon would not be tactically useful, otherwise no one would be bothering with liquid nitrogen launchers and craziness.

As a result, then, I'd hazard a guess that there simply isn't anybody around that has thorough (or particularly good, for that matter) working knowledge of high-momentum type slugthrowers.

That is ridiculous. It's a trivially simple type of weapon that almost all species will have developed and anyone could make in a workshop. All the evidence points towards it not being done because it doesn't work, you are just ignoring it because of a fixation on your ungrounded speculation.

[Xon]

Now, ME projectiles are apparently just little bits of sand accelerated to appreciable fractions of the speed of light.

This is completely wrong. Rifle and personal firearms are in the range of hypersonic projectiles, it's starships when not in atmosphere which push 1% to 4% the speed of light for thier projectile rounds.

Lots of KE, but little momentum; DE bullets, on the other hand, are low on KE and high on momentum. It would therefore be a lot harder for a kinetic barrier to slow and stop a modern bullet.

A rough figure for a 'grain of sand' is 0.63 mg to 2.5 mg or 2.5x10^-6 kg to 6.3x10-7 kg. Hypersonic is between mach 5 to mach 10 which is 1701.45 m/s to 3415 m/s.

1*10^-3 m kg/s to 8*10^-3 m kg / s depending on mass & velocity for momentum. Also importantly, flight time over a ~50m of pistol ranges streach is in the order of ~0.02 seconds downto <0.01 seconds. compared to the 0.11 seconds for a Desert Eagle round.

So, in a nutshell, the Desert Eagle would probably penetrate the kinetic barrier, but the question of armor is still in the air.

A Desert Eagle is in the range of 9 newtons m/s of momentum(21.1g at 430m/s), and is aproximately times ~4 to ~8 times slower than a ME round. Which gives the barrier generators almost an order of magnitude more time to defect the round!

The main reason I brought it up is that the Codex entry given on the wiki explicitly states that the kinetic barriers are designed to deflect small objects moving at rapid velocity. Said entry also gives that as the reason for being able to sit down in a chair.

Your reading comprehension is horrible.

Modern combat hard-suits have a "triple canopy" of protection: shields, armor, and self-repair. The outermost layer is created through kinetic barrier emitters, which detect objects incoming at a high rate of speed and generate deflecting "shields" provided they have enough energy in their power cells.

Kinetic barriers are repulsive mass effect fields projected from tiny emitters. These shields safely deflect small objects traveling at rapid velocities. This affords protection from bullets and other dangerous projectiles, but still allows the user to sit down without knocking away their chair.

The reason you can sit down on a chair is you aren't going to be sitting as fast as a god damn bullet so the suit doesn't need to impose a barrier infront of it.

I dunno though; the Codex entry for personal shields explicitly states that it deflects small, high-velocity objects. The writers have said before that Codex>gameplay/cutscenes/whatever, so in this case I'm not sure what we have to go on. TBH, my main reasoning behind "high momentum=shield defeat" is that the kinetic barriers wouldn't have the power to deflect such a high-momentum projectile.

Prove it.

BTW, power is energy over time(e/s). Kinetic energy, wait for it, is a type of energy. You can not treat momentum (kg m/s) like that. It just plain doesn't work!

TBH, I have no idea how we could figure out how that incident fits into this. However, I think it's odd that the hardsuits can survive that, but the Codex entry explicitly says that they aren't designed to protect against extremes of temperature (which would be present in a reentry).

Please, this is about Mass Effect, not your wacky fanon living in your head;

Armored hard-suits are sealable to protect the wearer from extremes of temperature and atmosphere.

The shielding afforded by kinetic barriers does not protect against extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation.

Also, it isn't reentry because Shepard has never landed on that planet before! With a mass effect barrier there are all near tricks an automatic system could do to improve survivability.

I think the only reason ME weapons go ping-ping-ping off of kinetic barriers is the lack of momentum.

Mass Effect Barriers explicitly work by generating repulsive gravitational sources via computer controlled mass effect fields which subjects incoming projectiles to massive forces to deflect them before they impact. The inbound rounds go ping off the barrier because the barrier succesfully bent the projectiles path into a pretzel in milliseconds to nanoseconds.

I am by no means a weapons expert, but my understanding of weapons technology is that you want the greatest momentum possible so that the bullet "follows through" into the body or armor.

No. You want sufficient momentum so the round delievers as much of it's kinetic energy into the target without overpenetrating and wasting energy.

[Whiskey144]

I'll start with this one first, because I have made a mistake with not being clear:

'Power' is energy/time, energy is KE. Momentum has no direct relationship to power; you are making that up.

BTW, power is energy over time(e/s). Kinetic energy, wait for it, is a type of energy. You can not treat momentum (kg m/s) like that. It just plain doesn't work!

I apologize for making it seem as if I was treating the issue in that manner, but I was actually being a lot more generally with the statement than I perhaps should have been. So what I really meant (and probably should have said) would be "kinetic barriers might not have the strength to deflect a high momentum projectile".

Please, this is about Mass Effect, not your wacky fanon living in your head;

Then that's my mistake, and I misread the entries in question. I concede that point.

That is ridiculous. It's a trivially simple type of weapon that almost all species will have developed and anyone could make in a workshop. All the evidence points towards it not being done because it doesn't work, you are just ignoring it because of a fixation on your ungrounded speculation.

I dunno though. To me, it seems as if there's too little info to make a conclusive judgement on whether or not a high momentum projectile would be more effective against an ME-verse infantryman. I think right now the general consensus of this thread seems to be leaning towards "it's not going to work", but I personally am not so sure.

Mass Effect Barriers explicitly work by generating repulsive gravitational sources via computer controlled mass effect fields which subjects incoming projectiles to massive forces to deflect them before they impact. The inbound rounds go ping off the barrier because the barrier succesfully bent the projectiles path into a pretzel in milliseconds to nanoseconds.

This sounds pretty promising; can anybody think of a way that we might derive some kind of guesstimate from this kind of event?

Also, it isn't reentry because Shepard has never landed on that planet before! With a mass effect barrier there are all near tricks an automatic system could do to improve survivability.

WRT the "reentry", I was mainly using the term to describe Shepherd's fall to the planet surface. Bad word choice on my part, in hindsight. WRT the mass effect barrer "tricks", could you perhaps describe some of these?

ME2 features rocket and grenade launchers. Shields work against both the kinetic impact, shrapnel and blast of these weapons; you can literally catch a rocket with your face and survive, albeit with your shields drained. Clearly large projectile launchers are widely used, so there is no reason why a machine gun wouldn't be if it actually worked. Clearly, this sort of weapon would not be tactically useful, otherwise no one would be bothering with liquid nitrogen launchers and craziness.

Incidentally, one of the assault rifles, the M-76 Revenant, is in fact described as a "light machine gun"!

[Xon]

Also, it isn't reentry because Shepard has never landed on that planet before! With a mass effect barrier there are all near tricks an automatic system could do to improve survivability.

WRT the "reentry", I was mainly using the term to describe Shepherd's fall to the planet surface. Bad word choice on my part, in hindsight. WRT the mass effect barrer "tricks", could you perhaps describe some of these?

The planet Shepard deorbited into Alchera, has gravity of 0.85g(this is good) but an ground level air presure of 0.83 atm(this is bad) but it's air is methane and ammonia which is denser than air but it's very cold (bad, the atmosphere is likely much shallower because it is so much denser and the planet itself is 1.5 times bigger). Lower gravity means less acceleration during the deorbit event, but cold lower atmosphere pressure means a higher terminal velocity and that means an increase in the impact velocity and thus how much KE the suit has to shed during impact.

The record for high altitude skydivers on Earth is diving from ~31km up hit peaks of 988 km/h. And Shepard was even higher, and didn't have any, lasting, chutes.

The only way for that to be even vaguely survivable in that there is a recognisable human body(and Shepard was structurally in one peice, and hadn't gone splat) is if the hard suit Shepard was in did something shed velocity. Keep in mind the entire suits are computer controlled, and hard suit tech in Mass Effect has been around for a long time, building emergency protocals into them incase the suit is in freefall would be one of those many many marketing buzzwords which are generally unimportant. Except when you need them.

By projecting an attarctive mass effect field behind the suit which will lower it's apparent wieght (by having a gravity source pull it up, this is how the shuttle in ME2 works) and a repulsive field around the front, to act as a forcefield-base parachute. The suits only have limited power, so it can't do this continiously but it can cycle as often as it can and potentially try gliding to shed even more velocity. Remember the suit is a highly advanced computer, forcefield emitter and sensor platform. Rotating the suit is just a matter of detecting hotspots and tweaking how the fields are generated to apply a little torque.

Note; the only inertia depending effects are just the generation of repulsive/attractive mass effect fields. Attractive/repulsive mass effect fields depending on the type/direction of electrical charge you run through a Element Zero core.

[Xon]

Yes, it still took Cerberus 2 years and a few billion credits to put Shepard back together but you get to see physically intact bones during the reconstruction process. Hitting rock hard ice at anything faster than the speed of sound is going to leave something you need bucket to pickup, not a recognisable human corpse.

[Starglider]

The planet Shepard deorbited into Alchera.

Are we sure that he deorbited at all? The curvature of the planet in the Normady destruction cutscene is quite high, indicating an orbit height of 500 km or more. Anything in that kind of orbit should stay there for years if not decades. The delta-V from the suit outgassing wouldn't be enough to significantly affect the orbit of a 100kg body even if all the thrust was applied in one direction, which it wasn't. I realise the fan assumption seems to be that he de-orbited, but mentally I just assumed that Sheppard's body remained in orbit until retrieved, dessicated and/or frozen.

[Connor MacLeod]

ME weapons are rather.. variable. Raygun "multiple settings" variable. Not only is there that bit in the codex where the gun self-adjusts the mass of the round to adjust for enviromental variables and (I think) the target (which could skew figures some), but ME guns are stupidly customizable, even within a specific range of weapon types (which include such short range. "low velocity" types like shotguns and SMGs.) More than that, going by the wiki ammo and performance descriptions (the various mods) indicate rounds can be anything like tiny sand-grain sized pellets to APFSDS like flechettes, which can also affect performance or other parameters. Hell, velocity can make a difference (going faster isn't always a desirable thing - modenr tank guns are actually slightly less than hypersonic, due to problems once you start creeping up to the hypervelocity threshold. That being that hypervelocity stuff starts to melt and/or explode, after a fashion.)

Then there's the fact noone can quite agree on how kinetic barries, the Mass Effect and such interact with the conversation laws like CoM. In-game descriptions make it sound like it's (brutally) violating the conservation laws, and I have seen fans gleefully claim it can in fact do that. If it does, discussion is pointless because we can't analyze it. If it doesn't, then it depends on alot of factors (how momentum transfer is handled, how big the barriers are, how its distributed in the suit, how it's anchored, how strongly it's anchored, etc.) If we don't throw CoM out the window its quite possible that you could still have to deal with some measure of blunt trauma (we're sorta dealing in bulletproof vest like terirtory.) It could still result in broken limbs or internal injuries.

This leads to an interesting question of how melee weapons interact with a kinetic barrier. Or stuff like, large rocks.

[Xon]

The planet Shepard deorbited into Alchera.

Are we sure that he deorbited at all? The curvature of the planet in the Normady destruction cutscene is quite high, indicating an orbit height of 500 km or more. Anything in that kind of orbit should stay there for years if not decades. The delta-V from the suit outgassing wouldn't be enough to significantly affect the orbit of a 100kg body even if all the thrust was applied in one direction, which it wasn't. I realise the fan assumption seems to be that he de-orbited, but mentally I just assumed that Sheppard's body remained in orbit until retrieved, dessicated and/or frozen.

The cutscene ends with Shepard starting to enter atmosphere, and you literially go an pickup you old helmet from the crash site. Additionally, Shepard was thrown well clear of the Normady's wreckage.

This leads to an interesting question of how melee weapons interact with a kinetic barrier. Or stuff like, large rocks.

One of the upgrades for Normady SR2 allows it's shields to tank a collision with a massive object without the shields going splat and loosing crew.

[Ritterin Sophia]

This leads to an interesting question of how melee weapons interact with a kinetic barrier. Or stuff like, large rocks.

Depends on how fast the weapon or projectile is moving. The Codex, in-game cutscenes, and the novels show that throwing a punch or something like that wouldn't cause the kinetic barrier to activate and I would assume unless the melee weapon were wielding by some kind of robot it wouldn't move fast enough to be affected. But then you run into the problem of how hard is their body armor. The only one's we really know enough about the armor of are the Krogan Battlemasters who throw up biotic barriers and walk around in armor sufficient to require dedicated anti-material weapons to put down reliably.

[Feil]

A Desert Eagle is in the range of 9 newtons m/s of momentum(21.1g at 430m/s), and is aproximately times ~4 to ~8 times slower than a ME round. Which gives the barrier generators almost an order of magnitude more time to defect the round!

Momentum is in Ns, e.g. kgm/s. Nm/s is a watt, a unit of power. Typo?

[Xon]

Yup, typo.

The biggest issue with slow projectiles is it gives the hard suits dramatically longer time to induce a force on them. This isn't even getting into the fact that the hardsuit offers excellent full-body protection. So not only is an incoming round going to be slowed down even more, it's going to have to defeat full-body bulletproof armor, which has automatic medi-gel dispensers to plug any holes builtin.

Throw in that all ME military firearms have auto-aim with hardsuit uplinks, you've got some insane protective capacity and unmatched lethality compared to RL military infantry.

[Whiskey144]

The biggest issue with slow projectiles is it gives the hard suits dramatically longer time to induce a force on them. This isn't even getting into the fact that the hardsuit offers excellent full-body protection. So not only is an incoming round going to be slowed down even more, it's going to have to defeat full-body bulletproof armor, which has automatic medi-gel dispensers to plug any holes builtin.

Throw in that all ME military firearms have auto-aim with hardsuit uplinks, you've got some insane protective capacity and unmatched lethality compared to RL military infantry.

There's a few points I'd like to address now, especially after doing some semi-random reading around on the ME wiki. Though I'd like to ask just what you found that indicated ME-verse infantry weapons have auto-aim, as IIRC they have aim-assists, but certainly no auto-aim.

WRT slow, high-mass/-momentum shield penetrators, there's arguably a canon example: the Disruptor Torpedoes.

....In flight, torpedoes use a mass-increasing field, making them too massive for enemy kinetic barriers to repel. Because extra mass retards acceleration, torpedoes are easy prey for defensive GARDIAN weapons and must therefore be launched at extremely close range to be effective....

So the idea isn't totally off-base. As to why infantry weaponry doesn't use this, my guess/speculation is that either:

1) hardsuits defeat shield-penetrating projectiles, much like you've suggested.
2) it requires each bullet to have a mass-effect field generator, making it stupidly wasteful and/or expensive for anti-infantry weapons, though it would be semi-feasible for anti-tank or anti-fortification weapons (IMO)
3) they've never considered it.

Obviously, #3 is pretty stretched. I like #2; it explains why the wouldn't do it, but also makes it possible for it to occur. The tradeoff being expense, of course. #1, is, OTOH, the most likely explanation.

However, going into some speculation, I'd guess that it's actually a combination of the 1&2, as well as a couple of other factors. It's explictly stated that infantry-based (at least) mass accelerators have recoil equal to KE, and that that's the primary limiting factor of accelerator design. With kinetic barriers, they have these shields that can be penetrated, but either the bullet won't be lethal, or the bullet would be way too expensive for use on infantry targets.

OTOH, because recoil energy=KE, and the statement that it's the prime limiter of weapon design (though it's noted that mass effect fields slightly lessen the effect), it would imply that they don't have very good recoil compensation. Because bullets also tend to be considered "sand-grains" going "supersonic" (I'd say it's going much faster in order to carry enough lethality), and such bullet "design", if you will, allows for high-efficiency firing duration (as in, 1,000-10,000 shots/ammo block), a higher-mass projectile would quite likely reduce firing endurance (likely significantly), which, combined with the recoil limitations, would serve to limit shield penetration.

Going back over some Codex entries on the wiki, it also occurs to me that they simply lack the power sources required for high-mass projectile launches that can match and/or exceed mass effect assisted accelerators. Since it's stated that accelerator design was revolutionized by eezo, allowing for projectiles to be launched to "previously unattainable" velocities, I'd say that that implies that, using the same power source, a non-eezo accelerator would be limited to much lower velocity for a certain number of projectiles compared to a eezo accelerator.

It's also possible that shield-penetration weapons are outlawed by Citadel law, though I'd consider that to be a longshot.

[Xon]

There's a few points I'd like to address now, especially after doing some semi-random reading around on the ME wiki. Though I'd like to ask just what you found that indicated ME-verse infantry weapons have auto-aim, as IIRC they have aim-assists, but certainly no auto-aim.

It isn't fully fledged auto-aim, but ME weapons can linkup with hardsuits and paint a targetting cursor onto the HUD. That plus aim-assist is a dramatic improvement compared to RL soliders where virtually all bullets are used on supressing fire which isn't even going near the target. Figuring out where a RL weapon is actually pointing at a given time is amazingly hard, there is a reason firing from the hip is generally a waste of bullets.

WRT slow, high-mass/-momentum shield penetrators, there's arguably a canon example: the Disruptor Torpedoes.

Read the entire quote about Disruptor Torpedoes. The Disruptor Torpedoes do thier damage by causing massive tidal forces which rip apart the target, the mass effect field just makes them artificially heavy enough to not be repulsed before it gets there. It says nothing about how massive the object has to be, or how much eeze needs to be used in the weapon itself.

Compared to a ME projectile which just fires inexpensive metal slivers really fast.

So the idea isn't totally off-base. As to why infantry weaponry doesn't use this, my guess/speculation is that either:

There is a weapon which does this; it's called a singularity projector and the biotic singularity ability also replicates the damage effect.

Obviously, #3 is pretty stretched. I like #2; it explains why the wouldn't do it, but also makes it possible for it to occur. The tradeoff being expense, of course. #1, is, OTOH, the most likely explanation.

Infantry portable singularity projectors are large heavy weapons. There is many orders of magnitude size difference between a bullet and the singularity projectors. Here is another reason; they can't scale the technology down in size to produce a powerful enough gravity field to matter. And it would be a massive waste of element zero because each mini-disruptor torpedoe would require some.

[Whiskey144]

It isn't fully fledged auto-aim, but ME weapons can linkup with hardsuits and paint a targetting cursor onto the HUD. That plus aim-assist is a dramatic improvement compared to RL soliders where virtually all bullets are used on supressing fire which isn't even going near the target. Figuring out where a RL weapon is actually pointing at a given time is amazingly hard, there is a reason firing from the hip is generally a waste of bullets.

Ah, I see now. What I had assumed was that the weapons had aim-asisst plus the targetting HUD linkage, so we're both on the same page here.

Read the entire quote about Disruptor Torpedoes. The Disruptor Torpedoes do thier damage by causing massive tidal forces which rip apart the target, the mass effect field just makes them artificially heavy enough to not be repulsed before it gets there. It says nothing about how massive the object has to be, or how much eeze needs to be used in the weapon itself.

Compared to a ME projectile which just fires inexpensive metal slivers really fast.

My point in mentioning Disruptor Torpedoes was that there is a canon example of a relatively-high-mass impactor passing through kinetic barriers. Based on the fact that the torpedoes become very sluggish, and that they could probably be launched from longer range without the mass effect fields on, I'd guess that said torpedoes become very artificially massive.

There is a weapon which does this; it's called a singularity projector and the biotic singularity ability also replicates the damage effect.

I'm not really sure I understand what you're point is with this. Could you perhaps explain this better so I do?

Infantry portable singularity projectors are large heavy weapons. There is many orders of magnitude size difference between a bullet and the singularity projectors. Here is another reason; they can't scale the technology down in size to produce a powerful enough gravity field to matter. And it would be a massive waste of element zero because each mini-disruptor torpedoe would require some.

Hence why I indicated that it was likely the second option; the degree of wastefulness or expense required makes it impractical. You do bring up a point that I hadn't considered, in scaling down the tech, which is a very valid objection.

I will note that I did say that it might not be very impractical for a heavy weapon, though I considered it more likely that said heavy weapon would be used against heavily armored targets (like tanks/tank-analogues) or fortifications.