Why do people assume that the Empire has better tech?

[Disco Soup]

I'm curious about this. It seems that yes, the ships of the Empire are faster than those of the Federation, but from what we've seen on-screen, that seems to be the only edge that the Empire has.

Consider:
-The Federation and its neighbors have demonstrated the ability to reliably engage in time-travel on multiple occasions. This includes an episode of TOS, Star Trek IV, Trials and Tribbleations and Endgame.*
-The Federation has teleportation technology.
-The Federation and energy-to-matter conversion technology.
-The Federation has cloaking devices and the means to detect cloaked ships. The Empire may have cloaks, as evidenced by Piett's line in ESB about cloaking devices, but it's certainly clear that the Imperial fleet does not use them, or they would have done so before the Battle of Hoth and that if they had the means to detect a cloak then Piett would have ordered them to do so when they lost the Millenium Falcon from view.*
-An episode of The Next Generation showed an engineer who created a ridiculous method of space travel that made a "subspace wave" or whatever that went out of control. It was stated that the wave would have destroyed any planets in its path. The Enterprise came up with a way to dissipate the wave at the end of the episode. Any Starfleet capital ship would be capable of deploying and dissipating the wave as a weapon. That would easily take out or disable a Death Star.*
-The Enterprise from TOS is capable of incinerating the crust of a planet on its own. I believe the name of the episode where this is mentioned is "The Armageddon Factor." The Imperial flagship Executor was incapable of destroying the Hoth Echo Base from orbit. If you are thinking about the Rebel shield, see the next entry.
-The Hoth Echo Base shield is able to be penetrated by ground vehicles. Starfleet shields are capable of deflecting incoming attack ships. In the episode Preemptive Strike, the only way a small fighter was able to pierce the shields and get close to the Enterprise was that Enterprise allowed them in.
-A point could be made that in regards to the Second Death Star's shield. That shield was delivered by a planet-based facility. If the Empire had the technology to equip the Death Star with its own energy shield then they would have done so, but neither Death Star was so equipped. The conclusion is that Starfleet shields are stronger and more economical.
-The Federation defeated the Dominion in battle. There is no conceivable scenario in which the Federation would fail to demand and receive the Dominion's invasive transporter technology, which is capable of beaming through shields.
-In Endgame, Voyager comes back home with advanced technology that allows them to destroy Borg ships with little effort. Such technology is only 20 years ahead of Voyager's time so there is little doubt that if the crew of Voyager could adapt it to their own ship so quickly, then Starfleet would waste no time in upgrading the fleet.
-Yes, the Empire has Death Star technology. However, the Empire only has ever had one Death Star at a time, never a fleet. As the Death Star would be vulnerable to the subspace wave above, the point is moot.

*The asterisk-marked entries are all illegal in the Federation. However, Star Trek VI, Star Trek Insurrection and the episodes The Drumhead, Homefront and Paradise lost all show that Starfleet has many people in it's chain of command who are perfectly willing to contravene existing laws for the sake of victory in battle.

I like both Star Wars and Star Trek. I'm simply puzzled over the fact that many people assume that the Empire would destroy the Federation when the Federation clearly has superior technology.

[Whiskey144]

I'm curious about this. It seems that yes, the ships of the Empire are faster than those of the Federation, but from what we've seen on-screen, that seems to be the only edge that the Empire has.

The thing that stands out most in this statement is that you're cherry-picking the canon of SW. Which happens to include a number of techbooks that describe SW firepower as being many orders of magnitude greater than anything ever described for ST.

The Federation and its neighbors have demonstrated the ability to reliably engage in time-travel on multiple occasions. This includes an episode of TOS, Star Trek IV, Trials and Tribbleations and Endgame.

This ability is irrelevant, because it's unlikely they can go back far enough to stop the formation of the Republic (not the Empire; doing that would only piss off the Republic which has equally impressive firepower and industrial capability). It's also irrelevant because time-traveling back to the start of the conflict would be a pretty useless ability. It's not like the enemy will be able to act the same way every time.

The Federation has teleportation technology.
The Federation and energy-to-matter conversion technology

The highly random nature of transporter operation (as well as known limitations) makes them a relative non-issue in a conflict between the Empire and the Federation. It also says nothing about advancement.

WRT "energy-to-matter" conversion tech, you will naturally provide proof of this existing within the Federation, as replicators are known to require "replicator stock", which is then used to produce whatever-the-hell-it-is that you want replicated.

The Federation has cloaking devices and the means to detect cloaked ships. The Empire may have cloaks, as evidenced by Piett's line in ESB about cloaking devices, but it's certainly clear that the Imperial fleet does not use them, or they would have done so before the Battle of Hoth and that if they had the means to detect a cloak then Piett would have ordered them to do so when they lost the Millenium Falcon from view.

SW cloaks != ST cloaks. SW cloaks work differently, and tend to have several drawbacks compared to ST cloaks; while an SW cloak is undetectable except against crystal grav-trap sensors, they have the drawback of not being able to see out (which is how a halfway-realistic cloak would work anyway); ST cloaks, however, have the issue in that they tend to allow emissions to pass through, which would quite likely allow them to be detected without CGT usage.

An episode of The Next Generation showed an engineer who created a ridiculous method of space travel that made a "subspace wave" or whatever that went out of control. It was stated that the wave would have destroyed any planets in its path. The Enterprise came up with a way to dissipate the wave at the end of the episode. Any Starfleet capital ship would be capable of deploying and dissipating the wave as a weapon. That would easily take out or disable a Death Star.

A one-episode wonder does not a war-winning strategy make. You will provide evidence that this would easily destroy or disable either Death Star.

The Enterprise from TOS is capable of incinerating the crust of a planet on its own. I believe the name of the episode where this is mentioned is "The Armageddon Factor." The Imperial flagship Executor was incapable of destroying the Hoth Echo Base from orbit. If you are thinking about the Rebel shield, see the next entry.

The Hoth Echo Base shield is able to be penetrated by ground vehicles. Starfleet shields are capable of deflecting incoming attack ships. In the episode Preemptive Strike, the only way a small fighter was able to pierce the shields and get close to the Enterprise was that Enterprise allowed them in.

There is no evidence to suggest that the Executor was incapable of destroying Echo Base. You're ignoring the fact that Vader did NOT want to destroy the base, he wanted it intact so that he could capture Luke. Nuking Echo Base from orbit would have rather obviously been counterproductive to that goal.

Further, the theater shield deployed at Echo Base was intended to protect against orbital bombardment. It had nothing to do with defending against a ground assault. I'd say that works as advertised, wouldn't you?

Further, shields on the Enterprise != theater/planetary shields.

A point could be made that in regards to the Second Death Star's shield. That shield was delivered by a planet-based facility. If the Empire had the technology to equip the Death Star with its own energy shield then they would have done so, but neither Death Star was so equipped. The conclusion is that Starfleet shields are stronger and more economical.

DS2 wasn't even completed, so the fact that it required the fuckoff huge shield projected by Endor is irrelevant. The first Death Star did have ray shielding, especially considering that it's thermal exhaust port was ray-shielded. TBH I have no idea where you got that stupid idea.

WRT Federation shields being stronger&more economical, I think you're own point disproves that. If the Empire didn't fit either Death Star with shields, then that would mean that the armor of both is perfectly sufficient for defense. Which means that SW armor is far superior to ST shields. Pretty obvious where I'm going with this.

The Federation defeated the Dominion in battle. There is no conceivable scenario in which the Federation would fail to demand and receive the Dominion's invasive transporter technology, which is capable of beaming through shields.

We never see them do so, and it's unlikely that they would anyways. Their own transporters seem to be perfectly sufficient for what they use them for, so I'm doubtful that they'd want whatever the Dominion uses. Since we've never seen them with Dominion-style transporters, you will naturally provide proof that they did acquire these devices by some stipulation in the peace treaty.

Further, the Dominion != the Empire. The Dominion is of similar (occassionally inferior, actually) technological level, and simply threw lots of cheap, small ships at the Federation. The Empire has not only a massive qualitative advantage, but a massive numerical advantage. 25,000 Imperial-class Star Destroyers really will fuck shit up.

In Endgame, Voyager comes back home with advanced technology that allows them to destroy Borg ships with little effort. Such technology is only 20 years ahead of Voyager's time so there is little doubt that if the crew of Voyager could adapt it to their own ship so quickly, then Starfleet would waste no time in upgrading the fleet.

Borg != the Empire. The Borg cover far less territory, with far weaker ships, than the Empire does. There's also the slight problem that whatever technology from Endgame is adapted to Starfleet would be pretty useless against the Empire. Said tech is, AFAIK, specialized in taking out the Borg.

There's also the fact that Starfleet very well might not upgrade the fleet by virtue of not wanting timeline pollution from the tech Voyager brought back from the future.

Yes, the Empire has Death Star technology. However, the Empire only has ever had one Death Star at a time, never a fleet. As the Death Star would be vulnerable to the subspace wave above, the point is moot.

They didn't build more than one Death Star at a time because they never needed more than one at the time. Keep in mind that the DS2 was built to 60% completion in as little as six months, with all materials supplied by a private contractor, and no slowdown or other impairments of maintaining and/or expanding the already-present Imperial Fleet. If they wanted a fleet of DS2's, then they most certainly could build one.

The main problem I could see in doing so would be staffing the bloody things, but then again, cheap droids are good for lots of stuff.

And as I said before, you will naturally provide evidence that said technobabble subspace wave would destroy the Death Star.

I like both Star Wars and Star Trek. I'm simply puzzled over the fact that many people assume that the Empire would destroy the Federation when the Federation clearly has superior technology.

It's because of the massive strategic speed, industrial capacity, numerical and firepower advantages the Empire holds. One-episode wonders won't do shit against 25,000 easily replaceable mile-long planet-killing warships.

[The Romulan Republic]

Like Whiskey144 said, the size of the Empire, above all else, gives them a huge edge.

The Empire has 25,000 Star Destroyers. That's Star Destroyers alone. Not counting the hordes of smaller warships they possess.

In terms of resources and territory, its also a huge mismatch. 150 Federation member worlds (as stated by Picard in First Contact) vs... well, I've heard different numbers, but one I think was 1 million major worlds and 50 million minor worlds for the Galactic Empire.

Long story short, the Galactic Empire is a Galactic power, and the Federation is a regional power.

[Disco Soup]

Sweet! Intelligent debate. Thank you.

The thing that stands out most in this statement is that you're cherry-picking the canon of SW. Which happens to include a number of techbooks that describe SW firepower as being many orders of magnitude greater than anything ever described for ST.

I concede that I should have defined the parameters of what I am considering. I'm only factoring in on-screen appearances. That includes the five Trek series and the movies. I'm also including the six Star Wars films and the Clone Wars series. Anything else is just too unwieldy on either side.

This ability is irrelevant, because it's unlikely they can go back far enough to stop the formation of the Republic (not the Empire; doing that would only piss off the Republic which has equally impressive firepower and industrial capability). It's also irrelevant because time-traveling back to the start of the conflict would be a pretty useless ability. It's not like the enemy will be able to act the same way every time.

They don't have to stop the formation of the Empire. I'm simply using this portion to demonstrate superiority of the tech. I'm not taking into consideration the eventual 29th century Federation tech that includes TARDISes and whatever else.

The highly random nature of transporter operation (as well as known limitations) makes them a relative non-issue in a conflict between the Empire and the Federation. It also says nothing about advancement.

WRT "energy-to-matter" conversion tech, you will naturally provide proof of this existing within the Federation, as replicators are known to require "replicator stock", which is then used to produce whatever-the-hell-it-is that you want replicated.

Sorry, old bean, but you're going to have to define the random nature and limitations of which you write. And I'm not sure what you mean by advancement. Do you mean the advancement of the Empire in developing their own teleportation devices? Teleportation has been shown to be an effective tactic for boarding parties or for delivering explosives to critical systems.

Well, the replicators show the incredible manufacturing and fabrication speed of the Federation. It adds the advantage of adaptability.

SW cloaks != ST cloaks. SW cloaks work differently, and tend to have several drawbacks compared to ST cloaks; while an SW cloak is undetectable except against crystal grav-trap sensors, they have the drawback of not being able to see out (which is how a halfway-realistic cloak would work anyway); ST cloaks, however, have the issue in that they tend to allow emissions to pass through, which would quite likely allow them to be detected without CGT usage.

Where is this coming from? The Thrawn series? I'd almost be willing to accept those as episodes VII, VIII and IX. I have not seen any significant use of Imperial sensors. They lost the Millenium Falcon, on the Clone Wars the droids can hide from Republic sensors by staying in pits, while in Star Trek sensors are shown as being able to locate a specific person from at least a planetary scale.

A one-episode wonder does not a war-winning strategy make. You will provide evidence that this would easily destroy or disable either Death Star.

The wave would have destroyed a planet. A planet>Death Star. In order to support life the planet would have to be roughly Earth-sized, while the Death Star is purported to be "moon-sized." This isn't to mention other one-episode wonders such as trilithium torpedoes (trigger novae) and the Genesis Devices, which collapses nebulae and scorches planets. All indications from these sources show that those devices are not used as weapons by the Federation due to laws and morals, but see my footnote. Additionally, a Klingon ship is capable of triggering a nova on its own in Shadows and Symbols, while the Enterprise destroys another vessel using a solar flare in Descent. Federation ships have the ability to enter a star, as seen in that episode and a previous one.

There is no evidence to suggest that the Executor was incapable of destroying Echo Base. You're ignoring the fact that Vader did NOT want to destroy the base, he wanted it intact so that he could capture Luke. Nuking Echo Base from orbit would have rather obviously been counterproductive to that goal.

Further, the theater shield deployed at Echo Base was intended to protect against orbital bombardment. It had nothing to do with defending against a ground assault. I'd say that works as advertised, wouldn't you?

Further, shields on the Enterprise != theater/planetary shields.

I can see your first point. I do concede motive in the attack. However, Star Trek shields are shown to be effective against ballistic and energy attacks. All on-screen evidence of shields in Star Wars seems to be either/or. The Hoth and Gungan shields, for instance. The Executor did have "shields" of some non-defined nature, but those shields are shown allowing fighters to pass through them.

Just because the scale of shields is different, there is no reason to assume overall power should be proportionate to size.

DS2 wasn't even completed, so the fact that it required the fuckoff huge shield projected by Endor is irrelevant. The first Death Star did have ray shielding, especially considering that it's thermal exhaust port was ray-shielded. TBH I have no idea where you got that stupid idea.

WRT Federation shields being stronger&more economical, I think you're own point disproves that. If the Empire didn't fit either Death Star with shields, then that would mean that the armor of both is perfectly sufficient for defense. Which means that SW armor is far superior to ST shields. Pretty obvious where I'm going with this.

The first Death Star's shield was weak enough to allow starfighters to pass through.

The DS2 had it's superlaser installed and working. If the Empire really wanted to protect the DS2, and was able to, they would have installed the generators within the DS2 structure itself, rather than on a planet.

Or rather, it means that the Empire cannot project their strongest shields onto their ships. That's no reason to assume the armor is better, only available. If you want to talk armor, consider that the Federation defeated the Dominion, who utilized neutronium (densest possible material in existence, no space between atoms), and such technology is now available to them.

We never see them do so, and it's unlikely that they would anyways. Their own transporters seem to be perfectly sufficient for what they use them for, so I'm doubtful that they'd want whatever the Dominion uses. Since we've never seen them with Dominion-style transporters, you will naturally provide proof that they did acquire these devices by some stipulation in the peace treaty.

Further, the Dominion != the Empire. The Dominion is of similar (occassionally inferior, actually) technological level, and simply threw lots of cheap, small ships at the Federation. The Empire has not only a massive qualitative advantage, but a massive numerical advantage. 25,000 Imperial-class Star Destroyers really will fuck shit up.

Dominion transporters are able to send a being over a distance of at least three light years at once, and through energy shields. They are superior to Federation technology. I do concede that we don't see the technology installed on Starfleet ships, but the treaty comes at the end of Alpha Quadrant canon, except for Nemesis, and just because we don't see the Enterprise mention special transporters does not mean that they are not installed. I'm sorry, but conquering nations always, always take advances from their victims, if advances are available. This one has to be a given, as the Klingons and Romulans were also beneficiaries of the treaty, and the nature of both empires has been shown to be one of conquest and tech-stealing.

Borg != the Empire. The Borg cover far less territory, with far weaker ships, than the Empire does. There's also the slight problem that whatever technology from Endgame is adapted to Starfleet would be pretty useless against the Empire. Said tech is, AFAIK, specialized in taking out the Borg.

There's also the fact that Starfleet very well might not upgrade the fleet by virtue of not wanting timeline pollution from the tech Voyager brought back from the future.

Show your work on the Borg !=Empire statement, please, as well as the "uselessness" of the Endgame technology. Also, see below about crazy admirals, Starfleet's full of them.

They didn't build more than one Death Star at a time because they never needed more than one at the time. Keep in mind that the DS2 was built to 60% completion in as little as six months, with all materials supplied by a private contractor, and no slowdown or other impairments of maintaining and/or expanding the already-present Imperial Fleet. If they wanted a fleet of DS2's, then they most certainly could build one.

The main problem I could see in doing so would be staffing the bloody things, but then again, cheap droids are good for lots of stuff.

And as I said before, you will naturally provide evidence that said technobabble subspace wave would destroy the Death Star.

Yes, I will. Death Star is moot.

It's because of the massive strategic speed, industrial capacity, numerical and firepower advantages the Empire holds. One-episode wonders won't do shit against 25,000 easily replaceable mile-long planet-killing warships.

Said one-episode wonders are capable of destroying the warships. Can they be replaced? Yes. Can they be replaced indefinitely when a single capital ship is capable of one-shotting them? No.

[Disco Soup]

Like Whiskey144 said, the size of the Empire, above all else, gives them a huge edge.

The Empire has 25,000 Star Destroyers. That's Star Destroyers alone. Not counting the hordes of smaller warships they possess.

In terms of resources and territory, its also a huge mismatch. 150 Federation member worlds (as stated by Picard in First Contact) vs... well, I've heard different numbers, but one I think was 1 million major worlds and 50 million minor worlds for the Galactic Empire.

Long story short, the Galactic Empire is a Galactic power, and the Federation is a regional power.

That's 150 "member worlds," while James Kirk said over a thousand planets, which means full members, plus additional protectorate colonies. Starfleet likely has around 8,000-10,000 ships capital ships, as well as their own fighters, which gives pretty decent odds considering.

[Batman]

Heck, the soliton wave wasn't even generated by the Ent-D, but by a rather largish surface installation. 'Any capital ship would be capable of deploying it' my ass. Plus it took all of 5 photon torpedoes to dissipate it. As Trek 'superweapons' go, this one's pretty pathetic.

[Metahive]

Let's see:

1.No sense of scale...check!
2.Special weapons wank...check!
3.No limits fallacy...check!

It's all there, all consuming soliton waves, accurate and reliable time travel, impenetrable cloaking devices, almighty transporters, super-duper anti-Borg-and-therefore-anti-everything tech...it's like you deliberately tailored this list to read like an all-encompassing compendium on what arguments Trekkies should not deliver in VS Debates.

[Disco Soup]

Let's see:

1.No sense of scale...check!
2.Special weapons wank...check!
3.No limits fallacy...check!

It's all there, all consuming soliton waves, accurate and reliable time travel, impenetrable cloaking devices, almighty transporters, super-duper anti-Borg-and-therefore-anti-everything tech...it's like you deliberately tailored this list to read like an all-encompassing compendium on what arguments Trekkies should not deliver in VS Debates.

I'm not saying that super-duper anti-Borg tech is anti-everything tech. Watch Q, Who, where the Enterprise fires photon torpedoes against the Borg, before they adapt. Watch First Contact, where quantum torpedoes are useless. The trans-phasic torpedoes in Voyager have never been used against the Borg, and when fired they take out significantly more of the Borg ship's mass. Higher yield against mass equals more power.

My sense of scale is not off. From various quotes during the Dominion War, 8,000 Starfleet warships isn't a bad number.

Now, the soliton wave was created by a ground-based installation. In Insurrection the Son'a casually whip out a subspace weapon. The only reason they aren't used by Starfleet is legality. See the "crazy Admirals" argument.

Starfleet has captured at least a couple Dominion ships intact. That gives access to Dominion tech regardless of a treaty.

I'm here for fun, intelligent, respectful debate, and I'm getting that from this Whiskey fellow, but I don't appreciate the wanky comments. I'm merely arguing what's been presented onscreen. Whether that's "wank" or not, it's Star Trek canon that the capabilities exist. Essentially saying "lol technobabble," discounts Trek's canon, which nullifies both sides

[Metahive]

I'm not saying that super-duper anti-Borg tech is anti-everything tech. Watch Q, Who, where the Enterprise fires photon torpedoes against the Borg, before they adapt. Watch First Contact, where quantum torpedoes are useless. The trans-phasic torpedoes in Voyager have never been used against the Borg, and when fired they take out significantly more of the Borg ship's mass. Higher yield against mass equals more power.

Given that Borg ships rely almost exclusively on technobabble force fields to protect them and carry otherwise, with the exception of the Tactical Cube no armor, those examples don't mean all that much. Also, the transphasic torpedoes work with a noticeable delay suggesting another piece of technobabble at work.

My sense of scale is not off. From various quotes during the Dominion War, 8,000 Starfleet warships isn't a bad number.

Which is still less than half the number of Imperial class Star Destroyers available to the Empire alone. Considering that most of what Starfleet got at its disposal is retrofit older stuff like Excelsiors and Mirandas it's not terribly impressing in this context.

Now, the soliton wave was created by a ground-based installation. In Insurrection the Son'a casually whip out a subspace weapon. The only reason they aren't used by Starfleet is legality. See the "crazy Admirals" argument.

You do remember that this subspace weapon requires a warp drive present to work? The Empire doesn't use warpdrives limiting their utility considerably. It can also be destroyed just by detonating such a warp drive in its vicinity, firepower the Empire can easily bring to bear.

Starfleet has captured at least a couple Dominion ships intact. That gives access to Dominion tech regardless of a treaty.

How's that relevant? The Phased Polaron Beam is another technobabble weapon geared to exploit Trek style shields which are obviously not used by the Empire. Same with the Dominion super-transporters. Just because some tech works well against one techbase doesn't mean it'll work just as well against a completely different one.

I'm here for fun, intelligent, respectful debate, and I'm getting that from this Whiskey fellow, but I don't appreciate the wanky comments. I'm merely arguing what's been presented onscreen. Whether that's "wank" or not, it's Star Trek canon that the capabilities exist. Essentially saying "lol technobabble," discounts Trek's canon, which nullifies both sides

Well for one you could have started by reading the main site where most of your arguments are dealt with in much more detail. Also, if my post isn't after your liking, why did you reply to it instead of Whiskey`s?

[Whiskey144]

I concede that I should have defined the parameters of what I am considering. I'm only factoring in on-screen appearances. That includes the five Trek series and the movies. I'm also including the six Star Wars films and the Clone Wars series. Anything else is just too unwieldy on either side.

How is it unwieldy? Is it perhaps because it gives information that you don't like?

They don't have to stop the formation of the Empire. I'm simply using this portion to demonstrate superiority of the tech. I'm not taking into consideration the eventual 29th century Federation tech that includes TARDISes and whatever else

Kind of hard to demonstrate the superiority of useless technology. Further, 29th century Federation tech isn't what we can use, considering we know chicken shit about it.

Sorry, old bean, but you're going to have to define the random nature and limitations of which you write. And I'm not sure what you mean by advancement. Do you mean the advancement of the Empire in developing their own teleportation devices? Teleportation has been shown to be an effective tactic for boarding parties or for delivering explosives to critical systems.

Well, the replicators show the incredible manufacturing and fabrication speed of the Federation. It adds the advantage of adaptability.

RTF main site, dipshit. 99% of what you've suggested is disproved there. Transporters are either rendered useless or greatly impaired by random minerals. They also are unable to transport through high-density materials.

Said materials are present in great quantities in SW armors of any kind. So there goes you're boarding parties (lolwut?*) or explosive delivery into critical systems.

*I can't help but laugh at the idea of Starfleet carrying a boarding assault against an ISD. ISDs have ten times as many ground troops as the entire crew of the Ent-D. That's not even factoring in the crew, almost certainly some of which will be equipped for boarding defense.

There's also the fact that replicators aren't unique to the Federation. SW has Duplicators, which are functionally identical. SW also benefits from the World Devastators, which can turn an entire planet into usable warships, ground troops, and other various sundry war material.

Where is this coming from? The Thrawn series? I'd almost be willing to accept those as episodes VII, VIII and IX. I have not seen any significant use of Imperial sensors. They lost the Millenium Falcon, on the Clone Wars the droids can hide from Republic sensors by staying in pits, while in Star Trek sensors are shown as being able to locate a specific person from at least a planetary scale.

For one, it's SW canon that CGTs are required for detecting SW cloaked ships, and that SW cloaked ships can't see outside the cloak. For two, "lost the Millenium Falcon" is because the Falcon hid in a blind spot on the bridge tower of the ISD, and then slunk away in the garbage stream. What kind of idiot scans garbage? What kind of idiot would scan the back of their own bridge tower? Such actions would be considered highly incompetent, despite the fact that the Falcon did successfully perform said feats. Because said feats were only performed by the Falcon, and are 99% of the time going to be useless (by virtue of all the other gear on the ISD) makes it a moot point.

You're also ignoring the fact that the "undetectable droids in pits" part could be due to several reasons:

1) The "pits" are sensor-stealthed. Considering just what the soon-to-be-created Confederacy was doing there, it makes a good deal of sense, don't you think.
2) IIRC, Obi-Wan was the one doing the scanning. And he was in a dinky one-man fighter. Don't you think it's fairly reasonable that that 10-meter (MAX) long one-man fighter doesn't have the scanner power and/or resolution to detect the under-construction droid armies? I certainly do.

The wave would have destroyed a planet. A planet>Death Star. In order to support life the planet would have to be roughly Earth-sized, while the Death Star is purported to be "moon-sized." This isn't to mention other one-episode wonders such as trilithium torpedoes (trigger novae) and the Genesis Devices, which collapses nebulae and scorches planets. All indications from these sources show that those devices are not used as weapons by the Federation due to laws and morals, but see my footnote. Additionally, a Klingon ship is capable of triggering a nova on its own in Shadows and Symbols, while the Enterprise destroys another vessel using a solar flare in Descent. Federation ships have the ability to enter a star, as seen in that episode and a previous one.

The Death Star (both versions) is capable of blowing up a planet too. The DS1 and DS2 were also known to not require an escorting fleet because of the sheer number of weapons they carried being capable of rivalling any fleet that might come against it. Further, an ISD-I/-II is capable of killing a planet. And the Death Star would have been functionally invulnerable to the entirety of the Imperial Fleet's ISD squadrons.

There's also the problem that: Genesis Devices are lost tech. We also have no idea how they would function on an armored and shielded target, considering it was used on a nebula. You will naturally provide the methods by which the Enterprise destroyed a vessel using a solar flare, and the method by which a Klingon ship was capable of triggering a nova.

can see your first point. I do concede motive in the attack. However, Star Trek shields are shown to be effective against ballistic and energy attacks. All on-screen evidence of shields in Star Wars seems to be either/or. The Hoth and Gungan shields, for instance. The Executor did have "shields" of some non-defined nature, but those shields are shown allowing fighters to pass through them.

Just because the scale of shields is different, there is no reason to assume overall power should be proportionate to size

1. SW shields exist in two varieties; particle shielding, which defends against kinetic impactors (i.e. ballistics) and ray shielding which defends against DEW (i.e. energy blasts/bolts). The Gungan shields were ray shields (or rather a variant thereof), thus allowing the droid army to penetrate it. The Hoth shield also didn't extend all the way to the ground, which allowed the Imperial craft to sneak UNDER the shield. They didn't go through it, they went UNDER it.

2. I can tell the incident with the Executor you refer to is when the A-Wing takes out the bridge. I will simply say that the entire Rebel fleet had been concentrating fire on the Executor's bridge tower (and thus shielding), and the shields failed, allowing the A-Wing to go all suicide-run and take out the bridge.

3. You're an idiot if you think that shield power shouldn't scale proportionate to size. On top of that, SW power generation is far more potent (i.e., it gives you a lot more juice) than ST power generation. An ISD's reactor is stated as producing power equivalent to that of a main-sequence star. Far more than the 12.75 billion GW statement of the Ent-D.

Dominion transporters are able to send a being over a distance of at least three light years at once, and through energy shields. They are superior to Federation technology. I do concede that we don't see the technology installed on Starfleet ships, but the treaty comes at the end of Alpha Quadrant canon, except for Nemesis, and just because we don't see the Enterprise mention special transporters does not mean that they are not installed. I'm sorry, but conquering nations always, always take advances from their victims, if advances are available. This one has to be a given, as the Klingons and Romulans were also beneficiaries of the treaty, and the nature of both empires has been shown to be one of conquest and tech-stealing.

You obviously have no understanding of peace treaty construction either. Any stipulations which would apply to the Romulans or Klingons may or may not apply to the Federation. Considering the very un-warlike nature of the Federation, I'd say that anything the Romulans or Klingons got out of the deal is very unlikely to be the same as what the Federation got.

Further, Dominion transporters may use a different technologic basis or principle to function, and it's quite possible that, like the Federation and Transwarp, it would take decades, if not centuries, to implement. Your point about how the Klingons and Romulans are benficiaries of the treaty is moot; whatever sections would deal with either power would NOT deal with the Federation.

Show your work on the Borg !=Empire statement, please, as well as the "uselessness" of the Endgame technology. Also, see below about crazy admirals, Starfleet's full of them.

You want? You got it. The Empire is a GALAXY-SPANNING polity, that controls a fleet of 25,000 warships that are each one mile in length, have the ability to render a planetary surface to slag, and are capable of crossing the galaxy in a matter of, at most, DAYS. And that's just a PART of the Imperial Fleet.

In contrast, the Borg control most of a single quadrant of the galaxy, and have a fleet that is incapable of crossing galactic distances in a matter of days. Further, Borg cubes are incapable of rendering planetary surfaces to slag; considering that said firepower is commonly directed at enemy ships (talking about the ISD here, just in case you're too stupid to figure it out), I'd say that the Borg would get proverbially assraped by the Empire's far superior mobility and firepower. Oh, yeah, and industry.

WRT the uselessness of Endgame tech, well, I'd say that a piece of equipment is pretty useless for something when it doesn't help you do a damn thing. As would be the case of Endgame-tech-equipped Starfleet taking on the Imperial Fleet.

Yes, I will. Death Star is moot.

This is one of those fallacies called "all weapons the same, all targets the same". At least in part, anyway. Because the technobabble wave that destroyed a planet isn't guaranteed to destroy the Death Star, especially considering you've yet to say just how "destroyed" the planet was. Was it lifeless and barren, unable to support life? Was it cracked open? Were pieces drifting around it? Was it blown apart from the inside? Was it blown up, with pieces scattering at a noticable fraction of lightspeed?

Prove that the technobabble wave would be capable of destroying the Death Star. Just saying "Death Star is moot" is no evidence. It's a claim, you idiot.

Said one-episode wonders are capable of destroying the warships. Can they be replaced? Yes. Can they be replaced indefinitely when a single capital ship is capable of one-shotting them? No.

Said one-episode wonders demonstrate capabilities that would likely prove useful for the majority of a series, yet are never used nor even heard of again. Further, you have yet to prove said technobabble weapons are capable of being used tactically, against capital-ship sized targets, rather than strategically, against planetary or stellar-sized targets.

Additionally, you severely underestimate Imperial shipbuilding capability. If they can construct DS2 to 60% completion in six months, then they could easily apply that kind of resource gathering and construction capability to build a shitton of ISDs. Even easier would be to crew them with droids; it'd be cheaper and it wouldn't waste valuable officers and crew on the conflict.

That's 150 "member worlds," while James Kirk said over a thousand planets, which means full members, plus additional protectorate colonies. Starfleet likely has around 8,000-10,000 ships capital ships, as well as their own fighters, which gives pretty decent odds considering.

1000 planets != 1000 full member worlds. This just proves you're an idiot. Again.

You will also provide proof that Starfleet has eight to ten thousand in-service capital ships, in addition to fighters. You will also provide evidence that this gives "pretty decent odds", especially considering the many orders of magnitude firepower difference between the Empire and the Federation.

I'm not saying that super-duper anti-Borg tech is anti-everything tech. Watch Q, Who, where the Enterprise fires photon torpedoes against the Borg, before they adapt. Watch First Contact, where quantum torpedoes are useless. The trans-phasic torpedoes in Voyager have never been used against the Borg, and when fired they take out significantly more of the Borg ship's mass. Higher yield against mass equals more power.

You realize that you've just contradicted your own argument, right? Because transphasic torpedoes have never been used against the Borg, they are vulnerable to them. Whereas photorps and Q-torps have been used against the Borg, so said weapons are pretty damn near useless.

There's also the issue in that transphasic torps have not demonstrated firepower above mid-double-digit megaton range yield.

My sense of scale is not off. From various quotes during the Dominion War, 8,000 Starfleet warships isn't a bad number

Yes, it is. You think that eight to ten thousand ships that are almost certainly NOT purpose built for war, and are armed with, at most, mid-double-digit MEGATON range weapons, can take on 25,000 ships that have far greater operational range, superluminal mobility, durability, and high-triple-digit GIGATON to low-single-digit TERATON (at MINIMUM) firepower.

I'd say that's a case of "ur sense'o'scale is off by a factor of OVER 9000!", memes aside.

Now, the soliton wave was created by a ground-based installation. In Insurrection the Son'a casually whip out a subspace weapon. The only reason they aren't used by Starfleet is legality. See the "crazy Admirals" argument

Soliton wave != Son'a subspace weapon. Further, you will naturally prove that either:

A) The Son'a purchased, traded for, or otherwise acquire their subspace weapon FROM Starfleet or the Federation; OR
B) The subspace weapon was manufactured by the Federation, and then stolen by the Son'a; OR
C) The Federation could acquire in some manner the Son'a subspace weapon, if it was not built by the Feds.

Additionally, you contradict yourself yet AGAIN, because a planet is going to have a hard time using a soliton wave to destroy something that can MOVE THE FUCK AROUND.

Starfleet has captured at least a couple Dominion ships intact. That gives access to Dominion tech regardless of a treaty.

There's this little thing you're ignoring, called common sense. Just because they have access to it, doesn't mean they can use it. They might understand the underlying principles and all that shit, but they might also lack the technological and/or industrial capability to implement it.

I'm here for fun, intelligent, respectful debate, and I'm getting that from this Whiskey fellow, but I don't appreciate the wanky comments. I'm merely arguing what's been presented onscreen. Whether that's "wank" or not, it's Star Trek canon that the capabilities exist. Essentially saying "lol technobabble," discounts Trek's canon, which nullifies both sides.

It's funny that you say that, when you yourself are discounting SW canon. Further, scroll to the top of the page, and read the slogan beneath the SD.Net logo.

If you're too lazy to do so, I'll present it for you: "Get your fill of sci-fi, science, and mockery of stupid people."

Us mocking you for being an idiot is part of membership of this board. Get over it, or get out.

EDIT: Metahive makes some great points, several of which I wish I'd noted.

[Metahive]

O wait, he did reply to Whiskey first after all so I retract my last point.

[Disco Soup]

Novel canon is unwieldy because it is self-contradictory. As printed, it contradicts what George Lucas has said as fact, including Boba Fett being alive after RotJ, including Lucas himself stating that the EU is a "parallel universe that does not intrude on [his] universe." Contravene Lucas if you like, but I'm forming arguments based on the core of the franchises, as defined by the creators.

Want to include novels? Fine. In the ANH novelization Han says that the destruction of Alderaan is beyond the capability of the Imperial fleet. The Death Star is mentioned as having "twice the power of the entire fleet." Lucas wrote that himself.

I understand mocking stupid people, I do. But I've not engaged in uncivil behavior, and I'm saddened that you have. This was shaping up to be a pretty fun discussion, based on your first response. I'm someone who can be convinced that I am wrong, but these replies have done nothing for that.

Insult me if you like. I'm sorry that it seems there's no place where people can sit and enjoy hypothetical scenarios without resorting to hostility.

[The Romulan Republic]

Like Whiskey144 said, the size of the Empire, above all else, gives them a huge edge.

The Empire has 25,000 Star Destroyers. That's Star Destroyers alone. Not counting the hordes of smaller warships they possess.

In terms of resources and territory, its also a huge mismatch. 150 Federation member worlds (as stated by Picard in First Contact) vs... well, I've heard different numbers, but one I think was 1 million major worlds and 50 million minor worlds for the Galactic Empire.

Long story short, the Galactic Empire is a Galactic power, and the Federation is a regional power.

That's 150 "member worlds," while James Kirk said over a thousand planets, which means full members, plus additional protectorate colonies. Starfleet likely has around 8,000-10,000 ships capital ships, as well as their own fighters, which gives pretty decent odds considering.

You're right, 150 member worlds. But even if the Federation had 1,000 protectorates and colonies and so on, and even if they had ten times that many by TNG (absurdly optimistic), they still have 1/5,000th. the total number of worlds as the Empire. They're just not in the same league.

The only definite number I've heard for Federation ships is 12,000, but as I recall that was a behind-the-scenes comment from a producer or writer or something, and hence likely isn't canon (Trek canon policy generally excludes everything except the films and TV shows). Also, a typical Star Destroyer is much larger than any of those Federation ships. And the 25,000 refers to just Star Destroyers, not every Imperial ship. Again, not in the same league.

[Metahive]

Funny then that neither example is actually contradictory in any way. In ROTJ Boba falls in the Sarlaac and manages to climb out in some novel, where's the contradiction? The Death Star is a secret weapon, Han not being in the know about it is hardly surprising. Again, where's the contradiction?

Official SW canon policy is that there's a hierarchy as far as different media are concerned and that higher ranking ones overwrite lower ranking ones. Official ST canon policy is all movies and live action series plus certain bits of the animated series with newer stuff trumping the older. That's what you have to deal with if you want to have any objectiv basis for a Vs debate.

Also, cut down on the tone trolling, that's not going to make you any friends here.

[The Romulan Republic]

Novel canon is unwieldy because it is self-contradictory. As printed, it contradicts what George Lucas has said as fact, including Boba Fett being alive after RotJ, including Lucas himself stating that the EU is a "parallel universe that does not intrude on [his] universe." Contravene Lucas if you like, but I'm forming arguments based on the core of the franchises, as defined by the creators.

This argument has been done again and again, and whatever Lucas said, that's not official policy of the company he runs.

Want to include novels? Fine. In the ANH novelization Han says that the destruction of Alderaan is beyond the capability of the Imperial fleet. The Death Star is mentioned as having "twice the power of the entire fleet." Lucas wrote that himself.

Not sure where you're getting "twice the power of the entire fleet" from. Han says that the entire fleet couldn't destroy Alderan. Later, a Rebel officer says the Death Star has a power "greater than half the Starfleet" or something like that.

But the Death Star is so powerful that half its power is still pretty damn formidable.

I understand mocking stupid people, I do. But I've not engaged in uncivil behavior, and I'm saddened that you have. This was shaping up to be a pretty fun discussion, based on your first response. I'm someone who can be convinced that I am wrong, but these replies have done nothing for that.

Insult me if you like. I'm sorry that it seems there's no place where people can sit and enjoy hypothetical scenarios without resorting to hostility.

Unfortunately, this board has a long history of mocking opponents. Its just something you have to accept if you post here. Don't take it personally, pretty much everyone is on the receiving end at some point. Pretty much nothing you can do about it except ignore it, reply in kind, or stop posting here.

[Disco Soup]

Well, I won't reply in kind.

What is tone trolling? I've never heard that phrase before.

I'd say that Lucas>Lucasfilm. I know all about the levels of canon in the SW mythos.

Lucas said that Boba Fett is dead. He also said that nothing exists past RotJ.

This is why I'm only going by what I see on-screen. I see Imperial Star Destroyers getting destroyed by a rogue asteroid strike. I see the Enterprise-D navigating an asteroid field with no problem, and deflector shields protecting them. I see TIE artillery barely scratching an asteroid and I hear Trek's torpedoes described by characters as "more powerful than nukes." I see proton torpedoes actually damaging the exterior of the Death Star, so I know that the torpedoes on the Enterprise can do that and more.

My argument about transphasic torpedoes is sound. I was comparing the damage done by each type of weapon before the Borg could adapt. Q Who?, First Contact and Endgame each feature the first use of said weapon against a Borg ship. The transphasic torpedoes are capable of destroying a cube, while the other torpedoes are not. Taking the damage done by each weapon, pre-adaptation, into consideration, transphasic torpedoes are stronger. We can see that SW Fighter ordnance<Photon torpedoes<Quantum torpedoes<transphasic torpedoes.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, I won't reply in kind.

What is tone trolling? I've never heard that phrase before.

Suggesting that others should be more polite is often badly received here.

I'd say that Lucas>Lucasfilm. I know all about the levels of canon in the SW mythos.

If you know about them, you're choosing to disregard them.

Why should one statement Lucas made years ago override an on-going policy that he endorses?

Lucas said that Boba Fett is dead. He also said that nothing exists past RotJ.

Do you then acknowledge the validity of pre-RotJ EU? Because that still lets us bring in the 200 GT turbolasers.

This is why I'm only going by what I see on-screen. I see Imperial Star Destroyers getting destroyed by a rogue asteroid strike.

When was that?

I see the Enterprise-D navigating an asteroid field with no problem, and deflector shields protecting them.

Source please.

I see TIE artillery barely scratching an asteroid

Probably because Vader wanted the Falcon intact.

and I hear Trek's torpedoes described by characters as "more powerful than nukes." I see proton torpedoes actually damaging the exterior of the Death Star, so I know that the torpedoes on the Enterprise can do that and more.

Because Proton torpedos can do something you assume a completely different weapon system can?

[SCRawl]

Disco, the problem that you really aren't grasping is that these questions have been settled for years. The only people who don't get that are, well, people we refer to here by names that are not meant to be complimentary. Your arguments are analogous to a situation wherein someone were to go to a board that discusses evolutionary biology and start pumping their latest flavour of intelligent design. You're about a decade too late, and the side of the argument you're espousing has been ground into the dust repeatedly. If you don't get why that annoys people, well, I can't help you.

[TheHammer]

Surprised people out there still believe Trek could stand a chance given the tech and production disparity...

You could start by reading the site associated with this forum, even if you just want to go by on screen visuals. Plenty of firepower calcs were done based on the movies alone.

[Xess]

The simplest way of solving Trek vs Wars for new people is in my mind to assume that both sides have equal firepower. At that point you can then point out the Empire's massive advantages in industrial capacity and strategic speed allows them to control when and where they engage and can do so in massively overwhelming force. Compared to that all the wonder weapons on both sides become irrelevant.

[Darth Tedious]

Soup, unlike most people here, I'll happily oblige your request that we allow offhand statements by a franchise's creator to trump company policy.
As Gene had stated that nothing is ST canon unless he says it is, you will retract all arguments relating to transphasic torpedos and So'na subspace weapons, as well as any references to the Dominion War.
Thankyou kindly.

[Whiskey144]

Novel canon is unwieldy because it is self-contradictory. As printed, it contradicts what George Lucas has said as fact, including Boba Fett being alive after RotJ, including Lucas himself stating that the EU is a "parallel universe that does not intrude on [his] universe." Contravene Lucas if you like, but I'm forming arguments based on the core of the franchises, as defined by the creators.

Want to include novels? Fine. In the ANH novelization Han says that the destruction of Alderaan is beyond the capability of the Imperial fleet. The Death Star is mentioned as having "twice the power of the entire fleet." Lucas wrote that himself.

I understand mocking stupid people, I do. But I've not engaged in uncivil behavior, and I'm saddened that you have. This was shaping up to be a pretty fun discussion, based on your first response. I'm someone who can be convinced that I am wrong, but these replies have done nothing for that.

Insult me if you like. I'm sorry that it seems there's no place where people can sit and enjoy hypothetical scenarios without resorting to hostility.

You're REALLY going to argue that the SW setting is limited to anything produced by Lucas, and everything else is part of a separate, but highly similar setting? You really ARE that stupid, aren't you.

Well, I won't reply in kind.

What is tone trolling? I've never heard that phrase before.

I'd say that Lucas>Lucasfilm. I know all about the levels of canon in the SW mythos.

Lucas said that Boba Fett is dead. He also said that nothing exists past RotJ.

This is why I'm only going by what I see on-screen. I see Imperial Star Destroyers getting destroyed by a rogue asteroid strike. I see the Enterprise-D navigating an asteroid field with no problem, and deflector shields protecting them. I see TIE artillery barely scratching an asteroid and I hear Trek's torpedoes described by characters as "more powerful than nukes." I see proton torpedoes actually damaging the exterior of the Death Star, so I know that the torpedoes on the Enterprise can do that and more.

My argument about transphasic torpedoes is sound. I was comparing the damage done by each type of weapon before the Borg could adapt. Q Who?, First Contact and Endgame each feature the first use of said weapon against a Borg ship. The transphasic torpedoes are capable of destroying a cube, while the other torpedoes are not. Taking the damage done by each weapon, pre-adaptation, into consideration, transphasic torpedoes are stronger. We can see that SW Fighter ordnance<Photon torpedoes<Quantum torpedoes<transphasic torpedoes.

You will naturally provide proof that SW fighter ordnance is weaker than photon torpedoes. Further, you will provide evidence that this is at all relevant to the discussion at hand. Especially considering the fact that SW fighter ordnance being weaker than photorps has no bearing on capital ship weaponry.

Soup, unlike most people here, I'll happily oblige your request that we allow offhand statements by a franchise's creator to trump company policy.
As Gene had stated that nothing is ST canon unless he says it is, you will retract all arguments relating to transphasic torpedos and So'na subspace weapons, as well as any references to the Dominion War.
Thankyou kindly.

+1. Your post wins the thread.

[Azron_Stoma]

I can't help but laugh at the idea of Starfleet carrying a boarding assault against an ISD. ISDs have ten times as many ground troops as the entire crew of the Ent-D. That's not even factoring in the crew, almost certainly some of which will be equipped for boarding defense.

Yeah, It would take more effort to carry out a boarding assault against an ISD than to launch a planetary invasion of a major world like Q'onos. Even if they could actually get on board in the first place.

There's also the problem that: Genesis Devices are lost tech. We also have no idea how they would function on an armored and shielded target, considering it was used on a nebula. You will naturally provide the methods by which the Enterprise destroyed a vessel using a solar flare, and the method by which a Klingon ship was capable of triggering a nova.

Not to mention the Genesis device's affect on already existent planets is completely unknown, it may have worked entirely as intended had they deployed it on Ceti-Alpha V. The Instabilities of the Genesis planet may very well been entirely/mostly the result of being a nebula turned into a planet, something the Genesis Device was never designed to do. Rather than being the fault of the Protomatter.

I recall the Enterprise using a Tractor beam to induce a tiny solar flare that destroyed a pursuing Borg vessel in "TNG:Descent Part 2" but a solar flare of that size wouldn't have anywhere near the energy of a Turbolaser shot. The Klingon BOP "Rotaran" Caused a larger solar flare, one I'd hardly consider a Nova, to destroy Dominion Shipyards. Neither Solar flare was large enough to rival the energy of a single Heavy Turbolaser bolt, and is far too diffuse to equal one even if they were.

1. SW shields exist in two varieties; particle shielding, which defends against kinetic impactors (i.e. ballistics) and ray shielding which defends against DEW (i.e. energy blasts/bolts). The Gungan shields were ray shields (or rather a variant thereof), thus allowing the droid army to penetrate it. The Hoth shield also didn't extend all the way to the ground, which allowed the Imperial craft to sneak UNDER the shield. They didn't go through it, they went UNDER it.

2. I can tell the incident with the Executor you refer to is when the A-Wing takes out the bridge. I will simply say that the entire Rebel fleet had been concentrating fire on the Executor's bridge tower (and thus shielding), and the shields failed, allowing the A-Wing to go all suicide-run and take out the bridge.

1. Pretty sure the Gungan shields could also block high velocity projectiles, the droids appeared to slow down as they passed through, which more than slightly suggests a form of surface tension that may increase the more force is applied on it.

2. I'm thinking he doesn't understand that Star Wars shields are hull hugging, and/or he missed the part where they mentioned the bridge deflector shields were down.

Dominion transporters may use a different technologic basis or principle to function, and it's quite possible that, like the Federation and Transwarp, it would take decades, if not centuries, to implement. Your point about how the Klingons and Romulans are benficiaries of the treaty is moot; whatever sections would deal with either power would NOT deal with the Federation.

Not to mention they likely wouldn't be able to beam through Imperial shields anyhow.

I'm not saying that super-duper anti-Borg tech is anti-everything tech. Watch Q, Who, where the Enterprise fires photon torpedoes against the Borg, before they adapt. Watch First Contact, where quantum torpedoes are useless. The trans-phasic torpedoes in Voyager have never been used against the Borg, and when fired they take out significantly more of the Borg ship's mass. Higher yield against mass equals more power.

It took only 4 Quantum Torpedoes to destroy a 600m Spherical borg ship, I would hardly consider that Useless, they also contributed greatly to the destruction of the cube.

The Enterprise fires Phasers against the Borg, before they adapt, they only fire Torpedoes AFTER they adapt. Phasers are weaker than torpedoes, consider the 3 huge holes in the cube made by the Phasers, now imagine if they had fired Torpedoes instead, it would probably look something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsqhZTvIT0k. 1:23 in

[Darth Tedious]

It should be noted that the whole ray shields/particle shields thing was a brain bug that, while popular in the EU, has been overridden by G-level canon. In RotS, during the Battle of Coruscant, Grievous uses ray shields on board the Invisble Hand to trap Ani, Obi-Wan and Palpy.
If ray shields don't stop particles, they shouldn't be effective in trapping people.
Furthermore, blasters, turbolasers and laser cannons must be particle weapons- if they were firing an beam of energy, it would propagate at the speed of light. Which also shows that ray shields do indeed stop particles.
Though, I don't think the DS-busting shot could have been made with laser cannons anyway...

As for the suggestion that the DS's shields are "so weak fighters can pass through them"- watch ANH again. It was interaction between the shields of the fighters and the DS's shield that allowed them to pass through, which is why all fighters had to modify their shields as they approached.

The idea of the DSII having shields throughout its superstructure to defend against attack during construction is preposterous. At the rate it was being built, doing so would necessitate the installation, removal and re-installation of shield generators on a daily, if not hourly basis just to keep up with the construction.

As for double-blind cloaks- They appeared in the Thrawn trilogy, which aren't being included in the agreed canon for this thread. Hibridium-based cloaks are double blind, while stygium-based cloaks are not. In TCW:'Cat and Mouse', we see on-screen evidence of an operational, one-way cloaking device.

[Connor MacLeod]

Genesis devices are not lost tech. In DS9 "Second Sight", we see that not only has the tech survived, but it has actually been further advanced. A Federation scientist, Professor Seyetik, has build a new device based on Genesis technology. At the end of the episode, this new device successfully reignites a dead star.

Wrap your head around those power calcs!

Does that mean I can counter with "triggering a supernova in stars that really aren't meant to be supernovas?" or something equally silly?

We dont know how anything involving stopping, starting, destroying, or creating stars would be involved, and that makes it a huge problem to calculate it. I'm sure you could devise a system, but it would be highly speculative and open to the sort of refutation that I've seen you present with calcs others present that you have disagreed with (Say, Mike and the "Yavin to DS acceleration calcs." )

I think you'd have much better luck trying to make claims with something like "SUPAH ANTIMATTER" or "planet killing sonic disruptors" from TOS or TDiC.