Police shoot Marine, Prevent Medical Care, Kill Him.

[TheHammer]

I suppose my question is, why couldn't you simply use teargas, flashbang grenades and tazers during raids such as this, where you clearly have overwhelming superiority. Obviously, police should be prepared for escalation if neccessary, but when they are entering a person's home one should assume they might first attempt to defend themselves not realizing who it is to begin with and perhaps take other precautions.

Because those are ineffective against a subject willing to use deadly force to prevent capture. If you go in a home with taser and your subject greets you with gunfire even if you had your firearm out you're already behind the curve. Now, you need to draw you firearm and engage the person that is currently trying to kill you. The odds are that you're probably going to get hit several times.

Point being they clearly had overwhelming superiority. In that situation you could afford to be more careful knowing you've got other armed police, and thus risk using non lethal force, especially when the situation isn't exactly clear.

[Mr. Coffee]

The term apologist has a negative connotation on this board, but really it just means a person who makes a defense and since back flips are a difficult acrobatic feet I can only assume you're trying to compliment me.

No offense, KS, but you do have a bit of a habit of coming to the defense of law enforcement in news topics like this. Granted, you tend to make good arguments when you do, but yeah, whenever I see a thread involving law enforcement doing something stupid it's like someone lit the Bat Signal for ya, dude.

Just sayin'...

[Xisiqomelir]

Alyrium, you live in this shithole too, don't you? Even though I'm in Scottsdale and not Tucson, the prospect of being just fucked over for no reason terrifies me. Can't wait to move out.

[Mr. Coffee]

I used to live in Pheonix years ago. AZ cops were a pack of rabid dickheads back then too.

[HMS Sophia]

Sometimes I'm glad I live in England, where the worst I will get is a bit of CS or a swift baton to the back of the head. Hell, even the riot police in Germany are better than this, and they're some scary motherfucks.

[Norade]

For those saying that we never hear about the good raids I don't think that's entirely the case, at least not in Canada. Just looking at local news you can see almost monthly reports of drug and weapons raids that have gone well. You also hear the stories about police violence and abuse of power as well of course, but generally unless it's a major offense they each get the same few minutes to 30 seconds of air time and a small blurb on local news websites.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Alyrium, you live in this shithole too, don't you? Even though I'm in Scottsdale and not Tucson, the prospect of being just fucked over for no reason terrifies me. Can't wait to move out.

I used to be, in the phoenix metro area. Now I am in TX, and it is not much better...

[SVPD]

The term apologist has a negative connotation on this board, but really it just means a person who makes a defense and since back flips are a difficult acrobatic feet I can only assume you're trying to compliment me.

No offense, KS, but you do have a bit of a habit of coming to the defense of law enforcement in news topics like this. Granted, you tend to make good arguments when you do, but yeah, whenever I see a thread involving law enforcement doing something stupid it's like someone lit the Bat Signal for ya, dude.

Just sayin'...

Well, of course he does. Someone has to. Otherwise it's a bunch of people just agreeing with each other. You're kind of begging the question by claiming threads where "law enforcement does something stupid" attract him; that's the point in contention.

Now as to the situation:

A) The police evidently had a search warrant. Warrants are to be based on probable cause; there are no "blanket warrants" or "crackdowns"; that's the author of the article getting carried away.

B) Because they had a warrant, the police had an absolute authority to search the premisis for the items described in the warrant. The homeowner had no right whatsoever to use any force to stop them, unless he did not know they were police officers.

C) If, on the other hand, the police were at the wrong house, there is no excuse for killing him.

As to the tactics of knock-and-announce vs. surprise raid - this incident demonstrates the misguided nature of having these sorts of raids in the first place, especially when criminals pretend to be SWAT teams. That is not the fault of the police, however; LEOs do not make law or policy.

In any case, the real question that needs to be answered is why was he confronting the SWAT team with an assault rifle in the first place, when they had a warrant?

[Alyeska]

I got the impression from the article that they weren't even going after his house, but they reacted negatively to his actions when spotted through a window.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Point being they clearly had overwhelming superiority. In that situation you could afford to be more careful knowing you've got other armed police, and thus risk using non lethal force, especially when the situation isn't exactly clear.

Point being overwhelming superiority doesn't make you bullet proof nor necessarily increase the reaction time to a threat by the group.

[Kamakazie Sith]

No offense, KS, but you do have a bit of a habit of coming to the defense of law enforcement in news topics like this. Granted, you tend to make good arguments when you do, but yeah, whenever I see a thread involving law enforcement doing something stupid it's like someone lit the Bat Signal for ya, dude.

Just sayin'...

No offense taken. I'd expect anyone to do the same thing if something controversial was being discussed in their field of expertise.

[Kamakazie Sith]

For those saying that we never hear about the good raids I don't think that's entirely the case, at least not in Canada. Just looking at local news you can see almost monthly reports of drug and weapons raids that have gone well. You also hear the stories about police violence and abuse of power as well of course, but generally unless it's a major offense they each get the same few minutes to 30 seconds of air time and a small blurb on local news websites.

In some cases it isn't. It's simply a matter of ability. If the media reported every good police action that's all the news would have time to report in a given day in a big city. I've saved the lives of several people and not once have those stories been reported. So, I have a bit of a unique perspective.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I got the impression from the article that they weren't even going after his house, but they reacted negatively to his actions when spotted through a window.

I think it is reasonable for police to react to spotting a person with a rifle seen through a window. I'm assuming they did not open fire at that point...

[[R_H]]

I got the impression from the article that they weren't even going after his house, but they reacted negatively to his actions when spotted through a window.

I think it is reasonable for police to react to spotting a person with a rifle seen through a window. I'm assuming they did not open fire at that point...

I don't know about you, but I think it's reasonable for him to be concerned (in his case, get ready to defend his family and himself) about a bunch of heavily armed men forcibly entering a neighbouring house, especially if as the second articles states, "Vanessa Guerena thought the gunman might be part of a home invasion -- a frequent occurrence in Tucson".

The sheriff’s department maintains that Guerena was holding an AR-15 when the paramilitary force fired 71 bullets in his home, but other key parts of the government story have collapsed. While PCSD initially claimed Guerena fired the weapon he was alleged to have been holding, the department now says it was a misfire by one of the deputies that caused this deadly group panic inside a home containing a woman and a toddler:

A deputy's bullet struck the side of the doorway, causing chips of wood to fall on his shield. That prompted some members of the team to think the deputy had been shot, [PCSD spokesman Michael] O'Connor said.

Sounds like the PD fucked up, was it a misfire or negligent/accidental discharge?

Did the team see Guerena with the rifle before or after the "misfire", did the deputy notice and subsequently inform the rest of the team that his weapon had "misfired"?

I'm surprised that the PD thinks it's a good idea to fire that many rounds in a residential area. They fired 71 rounds, out of which 60 hit him.

[Elheru Aran]

Ironic reply: 60 out of 71 rounds? Those cops should be commended for their accuracy!

Serious reply: Come on. It sounds like they hosed him down without even identifying themselves and giving him a chance to drop the gun; even a quick "Drop it NOW, hands up" would've been something.

Now if he'd been opening fire on people that'd be different. Re-reading the article...

While PCSD initially claimed Guerena fired the weapon he was alleged to have been holding, the department now says it was a misfire by one of the deputies that caused this deadly group panic inside a home containing a woman and a toddler:

A deputy's bullet struck the side of the doorway, causing chips of wood to fall on his shield. That prompted some members of the team to think the deputy had been shot, [PCSD spokesman Michael] O'Connor said.

Where was these officers' firearms discipline? You shouldn't have random bullets popping off in the middle of action like that.

I understand there's a need for quick action and everything in order to keep the officers safe, but what about the people in these houses that they raid? Isn't it better to punish a live criminal than to bury a dead suspect?

[Sarevok]

I don't think its fair to blame the police here. The failure lies with the policymakers. America has this obsession with "war on drugs". The police are merely carrying out the decisions taken in this regard. You cant really have this zero tolerance militant mindset and not not expect this kind unfortunate incident to occur. It's no use blaming the police here when they are being used as heavily armed foot soldiers against a countrys own people

[PainRack]

Ironic reply: 60 out of 71 rounds? Those cops should be commended for their accuracy!

Serious reply: Come on. It sounds like they hosed him down without even identifying themselves and giving him a chance to drop the gun; even a quick "Drop it NOW, hands up" would've been something.

Now if he'd been opening fire on people that'd be different. Re-reading the article...

The article sounds like it was some form of mistaken identity. They saw him with a rifle, thought they were being fired upon when the ND occured and then they fired at him until he went down.

[Psychic_Sandwich]

I don't think its fair to blame the police here. The failure lies with the policymakers. America has this obsession with "war on drugs". The police are merely carrying out the decisions taken in this regard. You cant really have this zero tolerance militant mindset and not not expect this kind unfortunate incident to occur. It's no use blaming the police here when they are being used as heavily armed foot soldiers against a countrys own people

Well, if you don't blame the police (and I agree, it's unfair to do so), you contribute to the image of police as unaccountable jackbooted thugs who can break into people's homes and shoot them for whatever reason they please. That image makes policing more difficult.

On the subject of the article itself, if the OP is correct and they had him outside the house and didn't allow him medical care for over an hour, that, IMO, is something there's no excuse for. Even if they didn't want to get him treated right there for safety reasons, if they'd already moved him outside, they could have moved him further and then gotten him treated, since he was clearly severely injured.

[[R_H]]

I don't think its fair to blame the police here. The failure lies with the policymakers. America has this obsession with "war on drugs". The police are merely carrying out the decisions taken in this regard. You cant really have this zero tolerance militant mindset and not not expect this kind unfortunate incident to occur. It's no use blaming the police here when they are being used as heavily armed foot soldiers against a countrys own people

They're not to blame for strategy of the "war on drugs", but they are to blame for the tactics of the "war on drugs".

[Kamakazie Sith]

The following article contains a bit more information. The last bit that there's evidence the house was connected to a home invasion crew kinda changes the impression we've all had regarding why SWAT was there. This might not have been a war on drugs operation.

Source (Partial 911 tape audio available)

TUCSON (KGUN9-TV) - The case of former Marine Jose Guerena, killed in a SWAT raid more than two weeks ago, is still stirring controversy.

The Sheriff's Office is still not offering details but the SWAT team's private attorney is offering an account of the incident.

9 On Your Side wanted wants to know- whether the recordings match up with the SWAT team's account.

With the Sheriff's Department making no official statements for now, the most official detail available comes from 911 tapes.

So we cross referenced them against the unofficial statements from the private attorney speaking for the SWAT team.

SWAT attorney Michael Storie says no one answered the door at Jose Guerena's house they broke in at about 9:30am.

Then they see Jose Guerena with an assault rifle powerful enough to pierce their body armor.

Storie:"What does he do? Does he drop his weapon? Oh, it's the police, drop my weapon? No. Does he just stand there? No. He heightens the threat by raising the gun and pointing it at the SWAT operators."

The SWAT team fired---71 times.

Guerena's wife Vanessa called for help.

Recordings show ambulance crews and even a Lifeline helicopter were on standby about 9:43 or 9:44 but were told to stay away.

911:"You need to hold off per S-O (Sheriff's Office) 26 year old man shot in the stomach. We have Lifeline One on standby at 9:44."

We know SWAT operators have strong First Aid training and often bring their own medics with them.

Radio traffic confirms that.

911:"SWAT has medics and we have a couple medics here so I think we're gonna be pretty good unless we have multiple injuries."

But why did medics wait about an hour and fourteen minutes before SWAT sent them away?

SWAT Attorney Mike Storie says after SWAT operators fired they saw Guerena jump or fall into a room where they couldn't see him and be sure he was no longer a threat.

Storie:"They treat this as a barricaded situation at this point. They pull back and they re-assess what will we do now?"

Recordings of SWAT radio calls have not been released, but 911 told the medical helicopter not to fly near what they regarded as a dangerous barricaded suspect.

911:"I would not even hover over the scene. SWAT's on scene. It's not clear. We're still holding off. Just for them to be safe. The patient's barricaded."

Christopher Scileppi, the attorney for the Guerena family has been calling for Storie to back up his account---and for the Sheriff to un-seal the documents where investigators justified a search warrant, and the document outlining what they found.

Storie says they found evidence the house at least was connected to a home invasion crew but there's still nothing we can see on paper to document that.

[Simon_Jester]

The following article contains a bit more information. The last bit that there's evidence the house was connected to a home invasion crew kinda changes the impression we've all had regarding why SWAT was there. This might not have been a war on drugs operation.

Though there's still liable to be a connection- psychology and training that police evolve in response to the endless series of drug busts is going to spill over into other areas of their work, yes?

[The Yosemite Bear]

Back in 91 I got cought up in one of Rampart's whole block drug busts, right after I was out of the dentists office, and still on NO, with a full script for oxy. I got released for being white and the guy in charge figuring out that I was fresh from the dentist's office.

[SVPD]

The following article contains a bit more information. The last bit that there's evidence the house was connected to a home invasion crew kinda changes the impression we've all had regarding why SWAT was there. This might not have been a war on drugs operation.

Though there's still liable to be a connection- psychology and training that police evolve in response to the endless series of drug busts is going to spill over into other areas of their work, yes?

Most police are not SWAT officers, and do not participate in these kinds of situations. For those that are, yes, some of it is going to inevitably affect how they perform regular police work.

[Superboy]

Given that the guy was shot 60 times, is there even a remote chance that medics could have saved him if they had gotten to him right away?

[Sea Skimmer]

Given that the guy was shot 60 times, is there even a remote chance that medics could have saved him if they had gotten to him right away?

Unless it was sixty graze wounds, hell no. People have survived dozens of heavy fragments and 10+ bullets before but no one is living after that many direct bullet hits unless every single one was in a limb. Even then… it’d be damn sketchy not to bleed out in seconds, and certainly it’d be all amputations. This isn’t even considering the fact that the police were most likely firing hollowpoints.

I’d figure he was very obviously dead after they stopped firing; and paramedics were simply not called in until after the crime scene had been photographed to take away the body. Maybe they should have been called in earlier to confirm he was dead… but I mean, sixty hollow points and this guy would have been missing his entire backside. It’d be all blown apart. Someone five feet from a exploding hand grenade might not be hit sixty times.