South Korean Crucifies Himself

[Tritio]

By HYUNG-JIN KIM
Associated Press

SEOUL, South Korea (AP) -- A South Korean taxi driver found dead and nailed to a cross in an apparent re-creation of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ probably carried out the ordeal on his own, police said Wednesday.

The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south. His hands and feet were nailed to the cross, there was a stab wound in his abdomen and nylon strings were tied around his neck.

After days of investigation, police said they believe the man, surnamed Kim, committed suicide without any assistance.

Kim is believed to have nailed his feet to the cross, tied his neck to it and stabbed himself in the side. He is then believed to have drilled holes in his hands and slipped them over nails on the cross, Gyeongbuk Provincial Police Agency officers said, describing the death under condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak to the press.

Officials simulated some elements of the crucifixion and concluded that an adult male could perform the act on his own, the agency said.

The man was a devout Christian, and police speculated that his "deep religious faith" may have helped him endure "immense pain."

Police said they found the man's notes planning the crucifixion. Before his apparent suicide, Kim closed his bank account and canceled his mobile phone contract in apparent preparation to end his life, police said.

An autopsy showed the man died of bleeding from the stab wound and suffocation, police said. Officers reached by The Associated Press said they had no information on when exactly the man put himself on the cross and how long he might have been there before dying.

Representations of the death of Jesus Christ depict him crucified on a cross, wearing a crown of thorns, a white loin cloth, and with a wound on his side from a Roman soldier's spear.

That's insane. Total nutcase. Hope no one else gets funny ideas.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Bizarre, and here I'd always thought crucifixion was something you needed help to pull off. I'd even heard jokes about it, in the line of "could Batman crucify himself?"

[madd0ct0r]

He drilled holes in his hands before slipping them over the nails?

after having nailed his feet and set up a choke chord on his neck?

jesus.

[fgalkin]

What happens to suicides, again? That's right, they go to hell.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[wautd]

That's insane. Total nutcase. Hope no one else gets funny ideas.

Insane? Yes. But this kind of religious inspired suicide is still better than strapping a bomb around you or flying a plane into a building. One less fundie without other people harmed is a win-win situation for me.

[kaeneth]

That's insane. Total nutcase. Hope no one else gets funny ideas.

Insane? Yes. But this kind of religious inspired suicide is still better than strapping a bomb around you or flying a plane into a building. One less fundie without other people harmed is a win-win situation for me.

No compassion eh?

Honestly, I just feel sorry for the poor bastard.

[The Romulan Republic]

That's insane. Total nutcase. Hope no one else gets funny ideas.

Insane? Yes. But this kind of religious inspired suicide is still better than strapping a bomb around you or flying a plane into a building. One less fundie without other people harmed is a win-win situation for me.

How is it a win-win? Someone who was quite probably mentally ill died a horrible, painful, completely needless death.

[wautd]

That's insane. Total nutcase. Hope no one else gets funny ideas.

Insane? Yes. But this kind of religious inspired suicide is still better than strapping a bomb around you or flying a plane into a building. One less fundie without other people harmed is a win-win situation for me.

How is it a win-win? Someone who was quite probably mentally ill died a horrible, painful, completely needless death.

Well, he wanted to die by the way he wanted didn't he? So good for him.

[Versac]

Well, he wanted to die by the way he wanted didn't he? So good for him.

In abstract principle, I am in favor of allowing suicide as the ultimate existential choice. In practice, homo sapiens aren't wired for it to be possible without substantial mental disorders playing a factor, excepting the edge case of euthanasia to avoid incurable pain. Some level of compassion is called for in either case.

[PeZook]

In abstract principle, I am in favor of allowing suicide as the ultimate existential choice. In practice, homo sapiens aren't wired for it to be possible without substantial mental disorders playing a factor, excepting the edge case of euthanasia to avoid incurable pain. Some level of compassion is called for in either case.

So every soldier on the HMS Birkenhead was mentally ill, then?

[Sarevok]

Difference must be made between self sacrifice and a pointless suicide Pezook. The latter is a tragedy to be averted anyhow possible and the former sometimes a grim necessarily that has to be done by someone.

[PeZook]

I was merely showing that homo sapiens are wired for suicide: we can readily override our sense of self-preservation for various reasons. The benefit is obvious, of course: group survival is aided if members have the capability to sacrifice themselves for greater benefit.

EDIT: Adding to that, with more "classic" suicides, it's still 90% or so that have mental disorders (and not all of these are severe ones). So humans are certainly capable of comitting ahh..."non sacrificial" suicide without a mental disorder playing a role.

[TheHammer]

I was merely showing that homo sapiens are wired for suicide: we can readily override our sense of self-preservation for various reasons. The benefit is obvious, of course: group survival is aided if members have the capability to sacrifice themselves for greater benefit.

EDIT: Adding to that, with more "classic" suicides, it's still 90% or so that have mental disorders (and not all of these are severe ones). So humans are certainly capable of comitting ahh..."non sacrificial" suicide without a mental disorder playing a role.

Going to disagree on it being suicide in this case though. Resigning oneself to fate in a situation of certain death isn't the same thing as willfully nailing yourself to a cross. Many of them perhaps held out hope that they might yet live, even if the odds were long

In general, even in extreme cases such as throwing yourself on a grenade to save your fellow soldiers, isn't considered sucide because you don't want to die. Same as when someone dies by their own hand, but under accidental circumstances. With suicide there is clear willful intent to end your own life. Which is why the term "suicide bombers" in the case of most terrorists is very apt -their intent to die and collect those 72 virgins.

[Versac]

In abstract principle, I am in favor of allowing suicide as the ultimate existential choice. In practice, homo sapiens aren't wired for it to be possible without substantial mental disorders playing a factor, excepting the edge case of euthanasia to avoid incurable pain. Some level of compassion is called for in either case.

So every soldier on the HMS Birkenhead was mentally ill, then?

That's a textbook example of altruism, the sacrifice of the self for the good of others. Dawkins' The Selfish Gene puts forth a satisfactory explanation for altruism being promoted by natural selection, and there's plenty of cultural backing for altruistic impulses to triumph over self-preservation. Interestingly enough there's a fascinating study* that shows that when ships sink quickly, healthy men are disproportionate survivors; when ships sink slowly, women and children are disproportionate survivors. Altruism seems to be stronger given time, but it's less reflexive than self-preservation.

*If you really want a cite I'll see what I can do, but it was a while ago. There's nothing too surprising though, just a good illustration of the conflicting factors.

I was merely showing that homo sapiens are wired for suicide: we can readily override our sense of self-preservation for various reasons. The benefit is obvious, of course: group survival is aided if members have the capability to sacrifice themselves for greater benefit.

EDIT: Adding to that, with more "classic" suicides, it's still 90% or so that have mental disorders (and not all of these are severe ones). So humans are certainly capable of comitting ahh..."non sacrificial" suicide without a mental disorder playing a role.

Not having a copy of that cite's source I can't challenge it directly, but I've very wary of flipping that "More than 90 percent of people who die by suicide have these risk factors" to '10% show no mental disorders'. I'm concerned by their wording; it says "depression and other mental disorders, or a substance-abuse disorder" when substance abuse is a mental disorder. It's plausible that the article is only referring to mood disorders (which are the majority of disorders culminating in suicide) when it says mental disorders, which excludes PTSD and anorexia. Couple that with the obvious fact that not everybody who does commit suicide will have a clean diagnosis on file, and I'm certain the real number is much smaller than 10%.

[Versac]

I was merely showing that homo sapiens are wired for suicide: we can readily override our sense of self-preservation for various reasons. The benefit is obvious, of course: group survival is aided if members have the capability to sacrifice themselves for greater benefit.

EDIT: Adding to that, with more "classic" suicides, it's still 90% or so that have mental disorders (and not all of these are severe ones). So humans are certainly capable of comitting ahh..."non sacrificial" suicide without a mental disorder playing a role.

Going to disagree on it being suicide in this case though. Resigning oneself to fate in a situation of certain death isn't the same thing as willfully nailing yourself to a cross. Many of them perhaps held out hope that they might yet live, even if the odds were long

In general, even in extreme cases such as throwing yourself on a grenade to save your fellow soldiers, isn't considered sucide because you don't want to die. Same as when someone dies by their own hand, but under accidental circumstances. With suicide there is clear willful intent to end your own life. Which is why the term "suicide bombers" in the case of most terrorists is very apt -their intent to die and collect those 72 virgins.

Suicide bombers in particular are a tricky case to pin down. There is an element of altruistic motivation in protecting their culture from foreign forces, large pressures from religious and social sources (whatever organization they may be a part of), and possibly some straightforward self-destructive behaviors. It's a good example for pointing out the limitations in Durkheim's system for classifying suicide, but most of the core concepts remain valid.

[PeZook]

The Birkenhead Drill is not a case of pure altruism. If it was, the soldiers would have abandoned ship and swam to shore. There was no need to stand in line aboard and go down with the ship. The only thing that was needed was not swamping the lifeboats.

But they listened to their commander's orders and mostly went down with the ship, when that wasn't necessary to save the civilians. Same goes for the 21 Sikhs at Saragarhi, who volunteered to stay when they could've retreated to a nearby fort. There was no actual pressing need for them to stay.

Not having a copy of that cite's source I can't challenge it directly, but I've very wary of flipping that "More than 90 percent of people who die by suicide have these risk factors" to '10% show no mental disorders'. I'm concerned by their wording; it says "depression and other mental disorders, or a substance-abuse disorder" when substance abuse is a mental disorder. It's plausible that the article is only referring to mood disorders (which are the majority of disorders culminating in suicide) when it says mental disorders, which excludes PTSD and anorexia. Couple that with the obvious fact that not everybody who does commit suicide will have a clean diagnosis on file, and I'm certain the real number is much smaller than 10%.

Why do you assume they exclude PTSD and anorexia, when their language is inclusive?

[Iroscato]

That's insane. Total nutcase. Hope no one else gets funny ideas.

Insane? Yes. But this kind of religious inspired suicide is still better than strapping a bomb around you or flying a plane into a building. One less fundie without other people harmed is a win-win situation for me.

What the hell is wrong with you.
This man's obvious vulnerability and mental illness caused him to commit suicide in what would have been an absolutely agonising ordeal, causing anguish and upset for any family and friends, and the best you come up with is it's a 'win-win situation'? Doesn't matter if he was a fundie, he was a human being, and he needed help.
People like you give athiests a bad name.

[wautd]

That's insane. Total nutcase. Hope no one else gets funny ideas.

Insane? Yes. But this kind of religious inspired suicide is still better than strapping a bomb around you or flying a plane into a building. One less fundie without other people harmed is a win-win situation for me.

What the hell is wrong with you.
This man's obvious vulnerability and mental illness caused him to commit suicide in what would have been an absolutely agonising ordeal, causing anguish and upset for any family and friends, and the best you come up with is it's a 'win-win situation'? Doesn't matter if he was a fundie, he was a human being, and he needed help.
People like you give athiests a bad name.

Sorry, but I can't feel any sympathy for anyone who commits suicide for the worst kind of reasons.
Speaking of suicide, a serial rapist (minimum 20 victims between 16-20 years old) in my town commited suicide a few days ago when he found out the police was on to him. He must have been mentally ill to be a serial rapist, so do you shed a tear for him as well? I say good riddance, it'll be the last time he makes any more victims. If you think that makes me a terrible person than so be it.

[Shroom Man 777]

Idiot. Who did this South Korean kill or rape? Did he harm anyone? Comparing this person to a serial criminal on the run is a disingenuous and shitty analogy. He had a mental illness that resulted in loss of life, his own. Just because his disease resulted in death by suicide doesn't change the fact that his death was needless and was possibly brought about by a treatable illness. Would you be posturing internet tough guy shit if this person had kidney illness instead of mental sickness, and instead died because the waste products that should've gone into his urine instead stayed in his bloodstream? Without even understanding the condition of this person, and what previously occurred in his life, what led to this and how his mental sickness progressed, you stroke yourself off because of lol religion and lol crucification and lol Jeebus. Your ignorance and callousness disgusts me.

EDIT:

Where the fuck did this serial rapist shit come from anyway? What a dipshit. Maybe you can go on about how mentally sick people who kill themselves don't deserve sympathy because, hey, Hitler was a serial murderer too and when he was on the verge of getting caught, he also committed suicide. That has everything to do with this case of a taxi driver who, as far as we know, didn't hurt anyone and just killed himself for who knows what, right?

Oh, oh! Hey! Let's have another stupid analogy! Cleopatra was a whore and killed herself by letting an anaconda bite her breast off! OBVIOUSLY this suicide that has nothing to do with this South Korean taxi driver has... everything to do with him! So don't expect me to have sympathy for either of them! LOL!

Insane? Yes. But this kind of religious inspired suicide is still better than bringing poisonous snakes or sending Jews by train to gas chamber. One less fundie without other people harmed is a win-win situation for me.

God, what a fucking fatty.

[Sarevok]

The Birkenhead Drill is not a case of pure altruism. If it was, the soldiers would have abandoned ship and swam to shore. There was no need to stand in line aboard and go down with the ship. The only thing that was needed was not swamping the lifeboats.

Indeed, you raise a great point about people choosing to abandon their lives even with no apparent gain for others. As an another example there is the old saying about the captain going down with the ship. During WW 2 some prominent naval personnel were lost after they chose to go down after losing a battle. These were highly intelligent men judged fit to command warships and fleets.

Suicide is a much more complex thing that can not always be swept under mental illnesses. While many cases are indeed caused by such I thing it is wrong to have a kneejerk callous regard towards those who chose to take lives for whatever reason.

[Iroscato]

Sorry, but I can't feel any sympathy for anyone who commits suicide for the worst kind of reasons.
Speaking of suicide, a serial rapist (minimum 20 victims between 16-20 years old) in my town commited suicide a few days ago when he found out the police was on to him. He must have been mentally ill to be a serial rapist, so do you shed a tear for him as well? I say good riddance, it'll be the last time he makes any more victims. If you think that makes me a terrible person than so be it.

Yes. Yes I do think that. And as Shroom said, I have no idea where that rapist shit came from. And besides, would that rapist have commited those crimes if he had not slipped through the net, and recieved help before he did what he did? Probably not. Mental illness is a complex and delicate issue, which you clearly lack both the compassion and intelligence to discuss and voice a competent opinion on.
Every time I re-read your posts, I despair. You arsehole.

[Versac]

The Birkenhead Drill is not a case of pure altruism. If it was, the soldiers would have abandoned ship and swam to shore. There was no need to stand in line aboard and go down with the ship. The only thing that was needed was not swamping the lifeboats.

But they listened to their commander's orders and mostly went down with the ship, when that wasn't necessary to save the civilians. Same goes for the 21 Sikhs at Saragarhi, who volunteered to stay when they could've retreated to a nearby fort. There was no actual pressing need for them to stay.

I am unfamiliar with the details, but a glance at Wikipedia indicates that the men did in fact try for shore after the ship broke up, but that three klicks of ocean and hundreds of sharks impeded the attempts. An order to hold fast until then is exactly what I'd expect a good officer to do to avoid any possible risk to civilians.

But remember, mental dysfunctions (disorder = harmful dysfunction) are defined as deviations from the general 'norm', and exactly what that 'norm' is is one of the biggest issues in psychology. Military training almost by definition seeks to instill focused dysfunctions into its recipients, especially the valuation of orders and discipline, and the willingness for personal sacrifice. The military mindset is in very real ways significantly different from that 'norm' that established standards of mental diagnoses don't always apply. So yes, many of those men probably could qualify as having a mental disorder... but it's one that is supposed to be there, and is beneficial to the group, if not the individual.

Not having a copy of that cite's source I can't challenge it directly, but I've very wary of flipping that "More than 90 percent of people who die by suicide have these risk factors" to '10% show no mental disorders'. I'm concerned by their wording; it says "depression and other mental disorders, or a substance-abuse disorder" when substance abuse is a mental disorder. It's plausible that the article is only referring to mood disorders (which are the majority of disorders culminating in suicide) when it says mental disorders, which excludes PTSD and anorexia. Couple that with the obvious fact that not everybody who does commit suicide will have a clean diagnosis on file, and I'm certain the real number is much smaller than 10%.

Why do you assume they exclude PTSD and anorexia, when their language is inclusive?

I'm not making that assumption, but if their language was meant to be totally inclusive there would be no technical reason to delineate mental disorders from substance abuse disorders. The author is therefore not writing in a formally precise style, and equating mental disorders with mood disorders would be an understandable change to make, particularly as mood disorders are the most relevant when discussing suicide risk. PTSD in particular is liable to be (mis)categorized as it has been subject to intense research in recent years, and has been shuffled from category to category over the decades. For what it's worth, it currently looks to be a disassociation disorder with the symptoms of an anxiety disorder (both non-mood). Still waiting on the DSM-5 to see where that lands. Either way the point that not every suicide will have a clear history stands.

[Versac]

Well, he wanted to die by the way he wanted didn't he? So good for him.

In abstract principle, I am in favor of allowing suicide as the ultimate existential choice. In practice, homo sapiens aren't wired for it to be possible without substantial mental disorders playing a factor, excepting the edge case of euthanasia to avoid incurable pain. Some level of compassion is called for in either case.

OK, rereading this I'd like to make a clarification/retraction. Restatement:

Human beings are hard-wired to preserve their own lives if doing so is a matter of their own choice. This compulsion is a fairly obvious result of natural selection, but it can be overrided by strong outside factors. In the vast majority of cases, these outside factors are the result of mental disorders that should be treated, and for that reason I see any blanket legal or moral condemnation of suicide as a net good thing. An example of a valid exception would be euthanasia to avoid incurable pain.

If you can provide very good data that contradicts the above I'll revisit it. Extra points for Boulder model work.

[mr friendly guy]

Ok I am going to bite. Since the article doesn't mention he was mentally ill, where do all these people come up with this claim?

The fact someone has a delusion called religion isn't the same "delusion" as used by psychiatrist, ergo religious people just by being religious aren't mentally ill.

The fact that he does things which are idiotic doesn't mean he is mentally ill. Just for the record there was recent publicity in my city about a case where a woman Pamela Dingle refused to have surgery for colorectal cancer, and ended up dying in agony. Now I am not going to speculate whether being crucified is more painful than dying from cancer without proper analgesia (which she refused), buts its not exactly a walk in the park either.

The reason she refused treatment, because she believed in her homeopath shit, even when it clearly wasn't working. She was not mentally ill. Oh, and yes I have seen people who discharge themselves against medical advice (even lying to us) * who were not mentally ill.

It seems the spat between Spiro, Shroom and Wautd is dependent on the premise that he is mentally ill. One can argue that he deserved sympathy even if he wasn't... however that isn't the argument presented. Thus its pointless proceeding in this vein unless one side changes or provides evidence, you know like a psychiatrist's diagnosis.



* This man had been treated for liver failure secondary to boozing. He discharged himself citing an important job interview interstate. I got a call next week from a peripheral hospital that he had just returned home and continued to drink. This time we were not able to save him and he sadly passed away.

[Shroom Man 777]

Even so, even if a mentally healthy person killed himself, how is his death a "good thing" worthy of celebrating or some other shit? How is it a "win" situation, as shithead wautd described? That the fact that a ridiculous notion filled a person's head, be it crucification or homeopathy or alcoholism, and resulted in a preventable loss of life, and wautd apparently thinks this is something to be glad about? Fuck that shit.

Plus, making an analogy with some rapist who ended up suiciding, as if that has anything to do with the matter at all, just shows that wautd is a complete shithead. Maybe using that kind of shit logic, I can say that people who genuinely suffer from mental illness and brain chemical imbalance and mood disorder ending up killing themselves is good because, uh, Hitler also killed himself and he was a mass murdering fuck so, in wautd's own shit words "He must have been mentally ill to be a serial rapist genocidal leader of Nazi Germany, so do you shed a tear for him as well? I say good riddance, it'll be the last time he makes any more victims. If you think that makes me a terrible person than so be it."

As if the South Korean taxi driver actually victimized anyone aside from his own poor self. As if that nonsense tangent has anything to do with suicide at all. Bringing in a serial rapist, or a serial Jew-gasser, has nothing to do with suicide in itself, or this South Korean dead person, and is just a shitty argument on part of a shithead internet tough guy poser acting tough so people will think he's so hard shit, like a dried up dogturd rather than some soft wet diarrheatic piece of shit. What a shithead. What a fucking fatty. You know how after eating lots of greasy meat, your shit ends up all oily and really smelly? That's the subspecies of fatty shithead he belongs to, taxonomically speaking, on the Bristool stool exam chart of fat shitheads. Maybe he should eat more fiber if he wants to be hard.