[40K]Chaos titans

[wautd]

After reading Titanicus, it seemed like all the Chaos titans were ex-Imperial. Does this mean that the forces of Chaos don't have the ability to build new titans, and that every titan lost is one lost forever?

Or do they have an industrial base somewhere? I'd assume the Dark Mechanicum would fill this demand but there doesn't seem to be much information about this faction.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

I would be tempted to say that at least some Chaos factions can build new titans. That they were able to build the Planet Killer implies some starship construction capacity (of one sort or another). If they can build starships, then they can more than likely build titans.

A lot of Chaos titans are indeed left over from the Horus Heresy (Dies Irae being the most famous example), or were acquired later. If they are building new Imperial-style titans from scratch, the most likely reason would be because that's what they know how to build. As with the starships, what they can build is dependent on their existing knowledge base (whatever the Dark Mechanicus happened to bring with them) and whatever they can reverse-engineer. Later on, of course, once they've got the hang of how Chaos and machinery goes together, they can start churning out some really weird stuff. The Defiler, for example, is described as being comparatively recent, as are the Hell Blade and Hell Talon. Heritor Asphodel is famous for his unique works.

[Elheru Aran]

There are a number of forge-worlds that have been consumed by Chaos, and as such there's absolutely no reason they couldn't knock together new Titans. It just may be a little more fucked-up than the Imperial types, but a little warpstuff here, a little warpstuff there and nobody'll notice...

Dark Mechanicus definitely supplies most of Chaos' industrial base; that should be self-evident, I think. Granted, Chaos *could* just conjure everything their forces need from thin air, but it's much more cost-effective in terms of energy for them to employ industrial facilities that they take over. The main difference being that instead of servitors and serfs running the assembly lines, they have daemon-things putting together bolters, tanks, etc.

I suspect a hell of a lot of Chaos' supplies come from the "hey look there's a nice big base over here, let's knock it over" strategy, though...

[Lord_Of_Change 9]

Granted, Chaos *could* just conjure everything their forces need from thin air, but it's much more cost-effective in terms of energy for them to employ industrial facilities that they take over.

That and, IIRC, stuff conjured by Warp-magic doesn't tend to last and just dissipates as soon as the power put into creating it is removed. I may be wrong though.

[Black Admiral]

Granted, Chaos *could* just conjure everything their forces need from thin air, but it's much more cost-effective in terms of energy for them to employ industrial facilities that they take over.

That and, IIRC, stuff conjured by Warp-magic doesn't tend to last and just dissipates as soon as the power put into creating it is removed. I may be wrong though.

Nope, you're right. Without a constant power feed to sustain it, matter formed from Warp-stuff (for lack of a better term) doesn't last very long.

[doom3607]

Hmm... *wonders why Chaos doesn't just sacrifice a few thousand Impie planets to get enough Evil Powerz to blow the crap out of Holy Terra*

[Shroom Man 777]

Hmm... *wonders why Al Qaeda simply doesn't smuggle nuclear weapons or suicide bombers to a few hundred American cities to get enough maximum damage to defeat America*

Oh wait, the resources, time, expertise, personnel, organization, planning, and implementation of such a thing would tip off the not-entirely-incompetent security apparatus of the Holy Imperial Departmentorium of Homeworldmundos Securitatum or the Federalis Bureaum of Investigatum or the Centrum Intellectus Aegis or whatever which would try their damned best to kill or otherwise stop the suicide cultists of the Alpha Qaeda Legion?

[Black Admiral]

Hmm... *wonders why Chaos doesn't just sacrifice a few thousand Impie planets to get enough Evil Powerz to blow the crap out of Holy Terra*

Because psychic rituals on that scale can't be done subtlety or quickly, and it wouldn't be hard for the Imperium to figure out what a Chaos force on a scale that would have to dwarf Abaddon's Black Crusades might be trying. And then Guard and Navy forces, and Space Marine forces on a very large scale (like, 3rd Armageddon War (50,000+ SMs and fleet assets in proportion) scale), would be mobilised in response, and heads would be kicked in.

Well, unless the Space Marines are of the Forge World portrayal, but that's unlikely.

[Simon_Jester]

Hmm... *wonders why Chaos doesn't just sacrifice a few thousand Impie planets to get enough Evil Powerz to blow the crap out of Holy Terra*

If they had enough firepower to sacrifice a few thousand Imperial planets, why wouldn't they just take the ginormous fleets and armies required to do such a thing, sail them to Holy Terra, and blow the crap out of it directly?

And of course, part of the answer is that yes, "The Emperor Protects." The Chaos Gods really aren't all-powerful in 40k; their abilities are large and terrifying but not limitless, and they are opposed by entities capable of taking them on at their own level. There is a limit to the scale of magic which is possible.

[Connor MacLeod]

The only faction in the Imperium who can build Titans is the AdMech. Likewise, the only Chaos faction who would even have a chance to build them are the Dark Mechanicum (Chaos AdMech.) But true to the nature of Chaos, the Dark Mechanicum are not neccesarilly under anyone's control (hell they may not even be a unified group themselves.)

Instead, they, like every other Chaos faction, seem to rely on alliances for mutual benefit, bribery/hiring (for the more mercenary of Chaos factions), or barter to get what they need to face up to the Imperium. The Dark Mechanium is no different, and they quite often maintain their position and power by acting as a military supplier to Chaos factions, as long as they can provide the resources, money, slaves, etc that they need. I'm sure they have their own Titans (or they could if they wanted), but I doubt anyone else would get them unless they could meet their price.

Plus, I think that more than a few of the Chaos Titan legions are not only independent operators themselves, but many of them have been outright mutated or possessed in the same way many vehicles, artillery or even starships on the Chaos side can be. Those Titans may actually be "living" entities themselves, after a fashion. Chaos is funny that way.

[Ahriman238]

IIRC the DarkMech set up their own Forge World, the SoulForge, inside the Eye of Terror. Among their other projects, forbidden research, and their ongoing quest to destroy their Imperial counterparts, they build things like Defilers and special tanks and even Titans specifically designed to be operated by a possessing Daemon.

You see, a Daeom requires a certain amount of energy, in the form of sacrificed souls to manifest in the Materium, and a certain amount of souls, in the form of it's victims, to remain. They can get around this limitation somewhat by binding themselves to an object via possesion, like a Daemon Sword. But the problem with being a sword is you aren't overly mobile, and depend on a mortal partner. But they can have all the advantages with none of the drawbacks by possessing a human or a large tank-like thing. In exchange for this service, the Daemon pledges to never attack, and actively defend the SoulForge.

Along with Titans that follow Imperial design but are corrupted or feral or bear the mark of the dark gods, there is a unique variant on the Warlord design called a Banelord. This Titan is only ever dedicated to Khorne, and features additions like a mouth-mounted weapon, an additional back-mount and a long prehensile tail that ends in a tank gun. They also have a special titan weapon: a combination power-chainfist/twin linked meltacannon called a doomfist.

[Night_stalker]

Regarding the OP, building a Titan isn't as easy as it sounds.

A scout titan is about 45 feet tall in real life, and would weight in at 410 tonnes. That bears restating. The smallest titan weighs about 410 TONNES, and is used to scout ahead of the larger, more powerful titans. Considering it has 95mm armor plating all around, one must consider that a Titan, even a scout titan uses up considerable resources and time to manufacture. Hell, that's not even counting the AdMech's building methods, which probably tack on several years due to their obsessive religious actions during the manufacturing process.

And that's not even counting the fact that you need blueprints, a large enough industrial base to make all the necessary components, the incredibly large amount of workers needed to make such a machine, and the raw materials needed in it's manufacture.

It's difficult enough for the IOM, which at least has most of the requisite components, save maybe the blueprints or industrial base occasionally. The Dark Mechanicus though, could use daemons or other forms of warp based "technology", similar to the Obliterator Virus, to compensate for those short comings.

Yes, in the minds of every Titan Princeps (Titan driver), a Titan lost is a Titan that might not be rebuilt, and is lost forever. Thus, they are rarely deployed on the IOM side, and even more rarely on Chaos's side.

[Ahriman238]

True, the DarkMech don't have the same kind of resources at their beck and call as the AdMech, for instance, having a single Forge World instead of a couple hundred. What they do have is generally more advanced hardware, which can be aygmented further by sorcery. The DarkMech did not lose as much of their knowledge in the Heresy as their Martian brethren, and had a few trinkets that the AdMech never had, thanks to Horus' STC fragment. Though the AdMech have made some discoveries the DarkMech haven't shared, mostly related to Archaeotech, the DarkMech are still generally superior in capabilities.

And yes, Titans are hard for either side to replace. Same with Orks and Eldar, actually.

[Whiskey144]

IIRC the DarkMech set up their own Forge World, the SoulForge, inside the Eye of Terror. Among their other projects, forbidden research, and their ongoing quest to destroy their Imperial counterparts, they build things like Defilers and special tanks and even Titans specifically designed to be operated by a possessing Daemon.

I'll note that the Dark Mechanicum FW isn't the only place where Chaos arms and armor and vehicles are constructed; there are several other locations, such as Medrengard (also within the Eye) that do manufacture arms and armor.

Hell, that's not even counting the AdMech's building methods, which probably tack on several years due to their obsessive religious actions during the manufacturing process.

I'll simply note that the AdMech quite likely totally justified in such practices, considering the fact that daemons can possess 99% of what they build.

True, the DarkMech don't have the same kind of resources at their beck and call as the AdMech, for instance, having a single Forge World instead of a couple hundred. What they do have is generally more advanced hardware, which can be aygmented further by sorcery. The DarkMech did not lose as much of their knowledge in the Heresy as their Martian brethren, and had a few trinkets that the AdMech never had, thanks to Horus' STC fragment. Though the AdMech have made some discoveries the DarkMech haven't shared, mostly related to Archaeotech, the DarkMech are still generally superior in capabilities.

The Imperium has also conducted extensive biological research into the design, implementation, and distribution of biowarfare and chemwarfare weaponry, in particular against the Tyranids.

And yes, Titans are hard for either side to replace. Same with Orks and Eldar, actually.

More so for the Eldar and less so for the Orks, actually. With the Eldar, each Titan contains the soulstones of previous pilots, allowing it to be operated by a single eldar (the "Steersman"), while Ork titans are limited only be industrial base, resources, and a warlord's coffers of teef.

The flipside for Ork titans is that they are far more ramshackle and fragile than their Imperial counterparts. It's quite conceivable that an Imperial titan can take out ten to twenty Ork titans before itself succumbing to enemy anti-titan fire. In fact, this is, AFAIK, one of the prime dangers of Orkish titans: the sheer volume of the things.

[Ahriman238]

The Imperium has also conducted extensive biological research into the design, implementation, and distribution of biowarfare and chemwarfare weaponry, in particular against the Tyranids.

Chaos also doesn't (generally) have the latest model bolters, power armor or jump-packs. Excepting those that come to them via recently-turned heretics.

More so for the Eldar and less so for the Orks, actually. With the Eldar, each Titan contains the soulstones of previous pilots, allowing it to be operated by a single eldar (the "Steersman"), while Ork titans are limited only be industrial base, resources, and a warlord's coffers of teef.

Eldar Titans are usually only piloted by twins and triplets, which are almost vanishingly rare amongst the Eldar. They grow up with the Titans, so they are very familiar with the personality (ies) inside, and can coordinate through a psychic twin bond, making the Titans far more responseful and fluid than the other race's versions.

With Orks, the Titans only get built when an Ork Mek gets a large enough warband to build and run the thing. Since Mek Bosses are pretty rare, much less powerful Mek Bosses, Orky Gargants are seldom encountered. IIRC, there were several hundred in 2nd Armageddon, but only because Gahzghkull had enough boyz to order it so.

[Elheru Aran]

One should note that there are different classes of Gargants, just as there are different classes of Imperial Titan. There are Stompas, which are roughly equivalent to scout Titans, for example. Even if an Ork warboss can't build a full Gargant, they're quite likely to be able to have their meks throw together a Stompa if they so desire. The alternative is using a squiggoth of some kind, and some prefer that; it's just as big a super-heavy as a Baneblade, if less well armed.

My rough rule of thumb is that one piece of Imperial technology is probably two or three times, at least, better than Orky tech... but Orky tech is two or three times bigger. The larger you get, the bigger the difference. There are exceptions, of course, and you can count on the greenies' latent mass psychic power to make a difference in many cases...

[Ahriman238]

My rough rule of thumb is that one piece of Imperial technology is probably two or three times, at least, better than Orky tech... but Orky tech is two or three times bigger. The larger you get, the bigger the difference. There are exceptions, of course, and you can count on the greenies' latent mass psychic power to make a difference in many cases...

Someday, you should read Caves of Ice where a Gargant, albeit one damaged by artillery barrage in a large-ish offscreen battle, was taken down by the concentrated firepower of... a dozen Chimeras.

[Lonestar]

Someday, you should read Caves of Ice where a Gargant, albeit one damaged by artillery barrage in a large-ish offscreen battle, was taken down by the concentrated firepower of... a dozen Chimeras.

Do...do you know who you are adressing?

[NeoGoomba]

Someday, you should read Caves of Ice where a Gargant, albeit one damaged by artillery barrage in a large-ish offscreen battle, was taken down by the concentrated firepower of... a dozen Chimeras.

IIRC, wasn't it was "taken down by the concentrated firepower of...a dozen Chimeras" AFTER it was ambushed (and survived!) by a Necron force?

[andrewgpaul]

The Imperium has also conducted extensive biological research into the design, implementation, and distribution of biowarfare and chemwarfare weaponry, in particular against the Tyranids.

Chaos also doesn't (generally) have the latest model bolters, power armor or jump-packs. Excepting those that come to them via recently-turned heretics.

More so for the Eldar and less so for the Orks, actually. With the Eldar, each Titan contains the soulstones of previous pilots, allowing it to be operated by a single eldar (the "Steersman"), while Ork titans are limited only be industrial base, resources, and a warlord's coffers of teef.

Eldar Titans are usually only piloted by twins and triplets, which are almost vanishingly rare amongst the Eldar.

Well, that might have been the case twenty years ago. Now, Eldar Revenant and Phantom titans are crewed by a single pilot (abeit with the assistance of previous pilots' souls via the implanted Spirit Stones). It's implied that Titan pilots are a specialist Warrior Aspect, since the Phantom pilot is described as an Exarch. See Imperial Armour volume 11; The Doom of Mymaera, when it comes out.

[Shroom Man 777]

I thought they never took down the Gargant itself, since it was too busy holding off multiple Necron Monoliths or something.

[OmegaChief]

It shows up later in the book as one finale scare for Cain as he prepares to escort the last of the Valhallans off the planet before they blow it up.

[Rabid]

And as was said, it was already heavily damaged. They just shot it in its weak point (the knees), making it fall on itself and achieving a at least a mobility kill, possibly even making the thing explode. At least if my memory serves me right.

Ciaphas Cain. Business as usual.

[Serafina]

We get a lot of information about a Chaos Forge World in the Deathwatch RPG. They are just as, if not more, independent than the Adeptus Mechanicus. However, they trade their technology more freely, mostly for resources and mining rights.

[Elessar]

We are also given a great deal of information about Chaos Titans in Dark Adeptus, where a fallen forge world churns out hundreds of the God Machines. Unfortunately the world in question (Chaeroneia) is actually incredibly unique, so it doesn't tell much about the standard way Chaos gains additional Titans over the millennia. Given this is Chaos though, I doubt anything about them is standard.

Anyhow, here you see that the Dark Mechanicius provides tribute to Abbadon just like any other Chaos faction. And it's all brand new. Spoilers ahead.
Spoiler

Chaeroneia produced somewhere on the order of eight hundred warped Titans (over the course of a thousand years), many of which showed 'marks of corruption on them, blooms of fungus and rot, throbbing veins, weeping sores and mutant growths'. Some had their internal parts replaced by the classic 'organic' warped components. A scout titan is reported to be missing a cockpit, and instead had a 'mass of stringy, brain-like data medium'.

All of this being unique since the Castigator STC, so-called father of Titans and part-time daemon, led the dark forge world.