How would Federation personal did throw movie Pradtors

[Stofsk]

We all know your reading comprehension is shit, you don't have to demonstrate it to us at every turn. I said no such thing.

[Sarevok]

Wow wow wait. Hold on there Stofsk. Did you just claim Betazeds could shoot with their eyes closed ? And Vulcans have accurate bat like like sonar hearing ? Or are you saying a Federation away team would probably reallize they are being stalked ? If it is the latter then I agree, it might happen. But not sure if a betazed or vulcans senses are good enough to actually aim at a cloaked enemy.

[Sarevok]

My apologies Stofsk. I am typing from mobile and made an edit right before you posted. Please reread !

[Stofsk]

Ok. I apologise if I was rude because it seemed like you were mocking me. Anyway, to clarify, as far as Vulcan hearing is concerned, it's a long shot. It's just something that may be possible to let them know they're being stalked (Spock in 'Devil in the Dark' conferred to Kirk his certainty that the two of them were being watched - while Kirk didn't have the same feeling. That could be Spock's hypersensitive ears, which TOS established are more sensitive than a human's) I'm not saying a Vulcan would be able to pin point a predator but he might be able to sense they're being stalked. (how fast the Federation team realises this could be the difference between winning and losing)

Similarly the betazoid might have the same feeling as well, especially if the Predator is 'readable' to telepathy. Both make assumptions we have absolutely no way of ever verifying however. But it's something I wouldn't necessarily discard.

[Sarevok]

I suppose it would depend on training. If a Betazed or Vulcan had the military training like Dutch and his men received they could probably pinpoint the Predator with their senses. It's like how soldiers are better at uncovering camoflouge than a civilian even though both are seeing the same thing. But most away team members seem to be starship crewmen. They probably don't have infantry training or experience. So I don't think they can shoot with their eyes closed like River in Firefly. Just like normal firearms use aiming by reading the targets mind or hearing its footsteps is going to take great deal of training and practice.

[PREDATOR490]

Predators cloaking

The cloaking employed by these dudes is supposed to be more advanced than previous movies and its a different culture of Predators as well. There is a scene where the Doctor hurls a flare down a corridor and the Predator cloak is perfect until the objects hits it. Visual distortion seems to have been reduced for this group thus the eyeball is going to be extremely weak here.

Starfleet weapons are mostly slow fire rifles by design thus I dont see them being able to hose down an entire forest effectively and there is little indication how much ammo they have.
If they want to run around on max settings that vaporise walls - A Predator will quickly get fucked but these Predators have no quams about engaging in ranged combat with Plasmacasters. Thus, Feds that play the ranged game are going to be vulnerable to incoming fire from invisible targets that like to shoot from trees etc.

Telepaths - Even if they can read a Predator the experience could easily be too much for a Fed to handle. We are talking about them trying to read the minds of vicious killers that indulge in brutality the likes of which the Feds would never believe was possible. Not that telepathy is very reliable to begin with. This could easily be down to the strength of the telepath and wether or not they are capable of properly reading the Predator intentions.
Knowing it wants to kill you and is around wont really help much but being able to pinpoint target it while cloaked obviously would.

Then again, high probability the Predator will catch on the Feds have pierced it's cloak and adjust accordingly. These Predators apparantly like the thrill of being countered and adapting so even if the Feds succed, they are only going to provoke more interest. They cant get off the planet because the Predators ships are rigged to self-destruct and we have no idea what other security functions might exist. Talking to the Predators is never gonna happen and it will only be a matter of time before the Feds run out of resources.

That said, I dont think the Feds would even survive an encounter with the first group of Predators. Feds arent trained for this kind of fighting or brutality and their experience in such is abysmal. The best chance they have is hoping the Predators get sloppy and offing them quickly.

[Sarevok]

Something I just realized. Wide beam phaser sweeps would probably cause the Predator to uncloak.

[PREDATOR490]

Something I just realized. Wide beam phaser sweeps would probably cause the Predator to uncloak.

It would be logical to conclude this setting would require a ton of power and can only work within a certain range. It would be likely to either distort the cloak or outright damage it but the only version of a sweep has been at stun setting. Given the alien nature of Predators it would be uncertain if a stun setting would actually work on them as a directed beam let alone the wide arc version.

Result: They hose down an area and then get a volley of plasmacaster rounds from a pissed off Predator as reward.

[JasonB]

Predators cloaking

The cloaking employed by these dudes is supposed to be more advanced than previous movies and its a different culture of Predators as well. There is a scene where the Doctor hurls a flare down a corridor and the Predator cloak is perfect until the objects hits it. Visual distortion seems to have been reduced for this group thus the eyeball is going to be extremely weak here.

Starfleet weapons are mostly slow fire rifles by design thus I dont see them being able to hose down an entire forest effectively and there is little indication how much ammo they have.
If they want to run around on max settings that vaporise walls - A Predator will quickly get fucked but these Predators have no quams about engaging in ranged combat with Plasmacasters. Thus, Feds that play the ranged game are going to be vulnerable to incoming fire from invisible targets that like to shoot from trees etc.

Telepaths - Even if they can read a Predator the experience could easily be too much for a Fed to handle. We are talking about them trying to read the minds of vicious killers that indulge in brutality the likes of which the Feds would never believe was possible. Not that telepathy is very reliable to begin with. This could easily be down to the strength of the telepath and wether or not they are capable of properly reading the Predator intentions.
Knowing it wants to kill you and is around wont really help much but being able to pinpoint target it while cloaked obviously would.

Then again, high probability the Predator will catch on the Feds have pierced it's cloak and adjust accordingly. These Predators apparantly like the thrill of being countered and adapting so even if the Feds succed, they are only going to provoke more interest. They cant get off the planet because the Predators ships are rigged to self-destruct and we have no idea what other security functions might exist. Talking to the Predators is never gonna happen and it will only be a matter of time before the Feds run out of resources.

That said, I dont think the Feds would even survive an encounter with the first group of Predators. Feds arent trained for this kind of fighting or brutality and their experience in such is abysmal. The best chance they have is hoping the Predators get sloppy and offing them quickly.

In movie Predators were extremely sloppy for more half the movie. They first want have main charters with dogs when they most likely easily kill all main charters themselves if they want to. Problem Predator over come tircorder is the fact they will not even understand how works. As far as I can tell Predator nothing even like tircorder in equipment they carry. wait minute one Sector 31 guy the UFP soldier crack his combadge. The Predator getting more bargain full scale war with starfleet command for violation Prime directive and kidnapped UFP citizens I could not see UFP putting with this.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Combadge

[Ahriman238]

I seem to recall the Feddies having some serious problems with the Jem'Hadar's "shrouding" abilities, which seem pretty damn similar to the Predator's cloak.

[Whiskey144]

In movie Predators were extremely sloppy for more half the movie. They first want have main charters with dogs when they most likely easily kill all main charters themselves if they want to. Problem Predator over come tircorder is the fact they will not even understand how works. As far as I can tell Predator nothing even like tircorder in equipment they carry. wait minute one Sector 31 guy the UFP soldier crack his combadge. The Predator getting more bargain full scale war with starfleet command for violation Prime directive and kidnapped UFP citizens I could not see UFP putting with this.

Your post is borderline unintelligible. My eyes cannot unsee!

Seriously though, the Predators have cloaking gear on both their personal equipment and their ships. The planet in question is some kind of alien hunting reserve that's not entirely unreasonable to assume is somewhere within Predator astrographic territories. Further, a cracked combadge only emits a distress signal, and does not say whether or not the signal is total-planetary-coverage, interplanetary, or interstellar.

I'm willing to bet it only covers a limited range, even if it worked on an interstellar scale. Further, Predators arguably do indeed have a tricorder-analogue; their helmets, which incorporate complex sensor suites that can operate in various IR-scanning modes, ranging from classic heat-sensor mode to a red-tinted thermal imaging. Oh yeah, and it has a xenomorph-tracking mode.

There's also the fact that, with the Predator hunting reserve likely to be somewhere within Predator astrographic territory, the UFP could very well class it as an internal matter. There's also the slight problem that there are several undesirables (for the Federation) who were taken.

[Shroom Man 777]

wait minute one Sector 31 guy the UFP soldier crack his combadge. The Predator getting more bargain full scale war with starfleet command for violation Prime directive and kidnapped UFP citizens I could not see UFP putting with this.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Combadge

The Starfleet combadge was a crystalline composite of gold, microfilament, silicon, beryllium and carbon-70. (TNG: "The Last Outpost", "Time's Arrow", VOY: "Hope and Fear") Due to the size of the combadge, its working range was limited to five hundred kilometers, although a starship could boost the signal to bridge larger distances.

So the seven Redshirt losers can't even handle the situation themselves and need to call on Starfleet Command and shit to declare full scale war? If your losers need to get reinforcements from all of Starfleet, then those Roman Praetors (or alien Predators ) must be pretty darn awesome. Oh wait, your comm badges are out of range unless there's a Federation starship within 500 kilometers.

[Enigma]

BLAH BLAH Federation wank BLAH BLAH BLAH!

Same shit, different topic.

[Connor MacLeod]

Nemesis opens with Praetor Hiren being killed, so there's at least one movie Praetor.
.

Who is either a statue or a pile of dust. I think 7 Federation dudes could take him with phasers and Tricorders.

Hmm. Seven Federation dudes against a Romulan praetor... that's a lot of Romulans following his orders. They're all dead.

Depends on where they fight and how many can reach them at once. They don't have to kill either, but just stun. If they went for kill well.. lets say 2 kj per shot to kill a roman soldier. We know a phaser rifle can carry at least 55 MJ, I'd assume phaser pistol capacity is similar ot that within an oom.. lets call it 10 MJ (there are phase pistols too and they carry alot of megajoulezz) Anyhow, with 7 hand phasers thats some 5,000 shots apiece, or 35,000 dead or crippled romans. That's not a small number.

If they have rifles, it gets even more brutal I suspect.

[Connor MacLeod]

Section 31 does take out enemy danger federation sounds like carry assassination mission as will I also close to guy movie Predators as possible.
6 guy one colonies fall part that was basic commit massive murder on other people. May form planet Turkana IV.
7. UFP soldier
I am trying put People federation fit the people that were in movie Praetors as close possible. We saw UFP tircorder during Star Trek TNG chase be able to basic creative hologram film of picture alien deliver message.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbHGYlB7208
If Federation personal have tircorder basic show red glow were the Praetor is location it make lot easily to take. They must likely use the must minimal amount power needed to kill a Praetor. Then they would us the power that Praetor generation to power up their toys. For that matter if Praetor has commutation technology on it they will be able to us it sends distress out call nearest UFP starship. Also after clean up Praetors they might able us tircorder to find starship and get off the planet that way.

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!

As far as I can tell Predator nothing even like tircorder in equipment they carry. wait minute one Sector 31 guy the UFP soldier crack his combadge.

smuggling crack in a comm badge can carry some serious legal penalties in the US.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The Starfleet combadge was a crystalline composite of gold, microfilament, silicon, beryllium and carbon-70. (TNG: "The Last Outpost", "Time's Arrow", VOY: "Hope and Fear") Due to the size of the combadge, its working range was limited to five hundred kilometers, although a starship could boost the signal to bridge larger distances.

[/quote]

Incidentally, what in the name of holy fuck is Carbon-70?

[Sarevok]

According to google it is a fullerene and a very strong material which ties into the comm badges supposedly tough construction. Not being a chemist I have zero idea beyond that. But at least they picked a real word than make one up.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well, in element terms Carbon-70 would be not only nigh impossible but horrednously unstable. 6 protons and 64 neutrons would make for a terrible mix.

[Connor MacLeod]

Ah no wonder. Clearly that means every commbadge is really a secret bomb. cracking it would disrupt the containment and BLOW THE PRADTOR- err PRAETOR to pieceS!

That explains why Janeway handed out so many comm badges in Voyager as well. They weren't communication devices they were a tool to defeat any attempts at mutiny.

[The Romulan Republic]

Generally, I have some difficulty understanding JasonB, but I can usually figure it out based on context and the somewhat consistant use of some terms.

That said all posts in this thread made by JasonB seem to be nigh-upon unintelligible. The biggest thing that bugs me is the whole "Praetors" instead of the correct Predators.

Moving to the actual topic, I've not seen the newest Predator movie (curses!), but I'd wager that all of the Feddies will buy the farm in relatively short order. Between what little I've heard/read/seen about the local wildlife of the planet in the new movie, and the stuff I've seen about the Predators in previous Predator movies and the AvP flicks, it's pretty much going to suck to be part of the UFP here.

Based on what others have said here and what I recall of the Predator films, the Federation people probably have a chance. Phasers can probably hurt a Predator if they hit. If the Federation people have tricorders, and these can pick up a Predator through its cloak, the Predators have a tough time.

Though I second the fact that we have never seen a Federation prison, or a death row inmate. While I doubt that the UFP wouldn't have prisons, I'm also doubtful that they'd have death row.

Wrong.

There was a prison in a TOS episode. There was the place Tom Paris was held at in the Voyager premier. And I presume they held Eddington and that captured Vorta in Deep Space Nine somewhere secure.

WRT Feddies killing a Predator, get real JasonB. The Feds are unlikely to kill the Predator, if only because they'll all be arguing over what to do (contact vs kill).

Oh please. I think you're taking the pacifist Federation cliche too far. Sure, they might try contact at first. When the realize the thing is hunting them for sport, and has no interest in negotiation, they'll shoot back.

I think we need to clarify who the Federation people are. Are they all human, or are some of them aliens who may be more suited to combat with Predators? Is there a Vulcan in the group? A Klingon? A Klingon would be reasonably fair if we're trying to match the group in the movie, seeing as how one of them was a sword-wielding Yakuza guy as I recall. Also, what equipment do they have? The OP says they have the TR-116 and a tricorder. Anything else? Does the Federation team all have tricorders? Do they have a medical tricorder? Hyposprays? Do they have phaser pistols, or phaser rifles? Do they have field rations? Comunicators? Universal Translators? If there's a Klingon along, is he just armed with a Bat'leth or is he carrying other weaponry?

[Whiskey144]

There was a prison in a TOS episode. There was the place Tom Paris was held at in the Voyager premier. And I presume they held Eddington and that captured Vorta in Deep Space Nine somewhere secure.

While I admit that I may not have phrased the statement as well as I should, had you read it a bit more, then you'd have realized that I'm not sayin "UFP has no prisons". I'm saying "UFP likely has prisons", which you validate by indicating that there was a TOS episode that featured a prison, and that "UFP likely has no death-row inmates".

Oh please. I think you're taking the pacifist Federation cliche too far. Sure, they might try contact at first. When the realize the thing is hunting them for sport, and has no interest in negotiation, they'll shoot back.

The thing is that JasonB has selected Federation members that are highly unlikely to be able to operate in a cohesive unit. He specified that there's:

A Section 31 operative, Starfleet doctor, UFP "soldier", UFP "death row inmate", UFP "mercenary", UFP "rebel", and some dude from a planet similar to Turkana IV. Further, he has specified that they have a (presumably one (1)) tricorder, a TR-116 rifle, and are armed with standard phasers and apparently the S31 operative also has a combadge.

That said-

1) It's unlikely the UFP is going to hand a phaser to a proven murderer, despite the fact that it is unlikely the Federation even has death row inmates.
2. The "rebel" is likely a Maquis, who will be exceedingly distrustful of other Federation members, on account of the Feds abandoning them (the Maquis) to the Cardies, from the Maquis member's PoV.
3. The S31 guy is more likely to be interested in Predator gear to advance the Federation. This conflicts with the basic objective of the others, which is this thing called "survival".
4. Because of the disparate individuals, it's more than likely that they'll all split up and be picked off piecemeal. The "soldier" (presumably a security officer) will likely stick with the doctor, but the S31 guy is more likely to either attempt to manipulate the doc and security officer to be bait, or go off alone. Further, the inmate is going to want to get as far away as possible, because it's his best chance (before they are aware that they (the Feds) are the equivalent of big game). The Maquis might stick with the doc and Security boy, but it's a big if.

Further, the Turkana-IV-similar person is unlikely to be all that cooperative with the others; if anything, said individual is likely to ally with the inmate.

[PREDATOR490]

Even if they all band together, the desparate and vague descriptions make it difficult to know what the fuck these people will do.

The folks in Predators ranged from convicts, serial killers to REAL trained soldiers with indications of previous trained soldiers being used for hunting practice. I.E These Predators are hunting people with a lot more firepower, intelligence, experience and training than the Federation employs at its peak.

There are no death row inmates for the Federation. I suppose you could substitue 'high security' prisoner but again that could translate to a whole heap of things in Starfleet.

Regardless, a prisoner is could be rather unstable to have around and not help the group. Assuming they have any abilites that could help and they arent just nutcase that beat a co-worker to death for looking at them the wrong way.

S31 - Information about these guys is limited. They are a secret intelligence group that performs morally dubious actions when the need arises. There is little to indicate what kind of weaponary or training they would get. Since they supposedly recruit the best from Starfleet the training they get can be assumed to be at least equivelent to whatever role the performed prior to recruitment.

I.E Bashir was a Doctor

That gives us two medics on planet. One that might be a bit more morally dubious and secretive but hardly going to shaft everyone else for no reason. Securing Predator technology dosent seem like a valid reason compared to getting home so S31 can hear of the new threat.

Maquis - Could easily tell everyone to go fuck themselves or willingly tag alone like they did in Voyager. Again, the training they have could be anything from simple farmers to former Starfleet washouts.

UFP Merc - I still dont know who or what this is meant to be.
Since they are from the Federation, I will guess once again this person has Starfleet training.

Guy from Turkana - A planet that was involved in a civil war and had rape gangs. So we have a guy that is a potential rapist / thug with unknown training.

Fed Soldier - Security officer with... Starfleet training

Fed Doctor - Medical officer with... Starfleet training


Overall summary.
We have almost the entire group being trained by Starfleet in one form or another.
Since Starfleet combat training is lack lustre to say the least and experience negligible. Especially against a foe like a Predator that is used to hunting fully trained professional killers. I forsee a colossal turkey shoot.

The only way this group will even remotely survive is by the gimicks of their technology / alien special abilities. I.E Pray the Tricorders / telepaths pick up Predators and can do so accurately enough to be fired upon BEFORE the Predator(s) shoot plasmacaster rounds. Even with that technology, you have a group of individuals that could easily fracture due to the in-fighting.

Wont even go into the problem they would have with the traps the Predators laid.

The one that maims the target... who dosent see the Feds slowing down to help the wounded ?
The one that was caught in a lethal trap... I can easily see one or more rushing to aid the guy and getting gutted.

This was before the Predators even showed up in the movie, THEN you will have the Predator hounds appear.
Those things took a decent pounding before dropping. I dont expect Federation phasers to be able to match that except at the higher settings and the Feds dont normally go around at those settings. Phaser accuracy isnt that great either and the beams have been dodged by targets before.

THEN you will finally have the appearance of the Predators raining down plasmacaster rounds while they are trying to figure out what the hell is going on.

Frankly, I would be surprised if any of the team were still alive before they even reached Morpheous. They meet Morpheous and then get promptly murdered in their sleep. The benefit of being in that structure is the narrow corridors would let the wide arc settings work effectively but your effectively hiding in a hole until the Predators smoke them out or the Feds run out of ammo.

Result: Without characters shields and magical training the likes of which is extremely rare in ST. These folks are going to be slaughtered barring Predators falling to their own sloppyness.

[The Romulan Republic]

While I admit that I may not have phrased the statement as well as I should, had you read it a bit more, then you'd have realized that I'm not sayin "UFP has no prisons". I'm saying "UFP likely has prisons", which you validate by indicating that there was a TOS episode that featured a prison, and that "UFP likely has no death-row inmates".

Sorry. However, there was a death penalty offence in TOS (going to some planet or other as I recall).

That said-

1) It's unlikely the UFP is going to hand a phaser to a proven murderer, despite the fact that it is unlikely the Federation even has death row inmates.
2. The "rebel" is likely a Maquis, who will be exceedingly distrustful of other Federation members, on account of the Feds abandoning them (the Maquis) to the Cardies, from the Maquis member's PoV.
3. The S31 guy is more likely to be interested in Predator gear to advance the Federation. This conflicts with the basic objective of the others, which is this thing called "survival".
4. Because of the disparate individuals, it's more than likely that they'll all split up and be picked off piecemeal. The "soldier" (presumably a security officer) will likely stick with the doctor, but the S31 guy is more likely to either attempt to manipulate the doc and security officer to be bait, or go off alone. Further, the inmate is going to want to get as far away as possible, because it's his best chance (before they are aware that they (the Feds) are the equivalent of big game). The Maquis might stick with the doc and Security boy, but it's a big if.

Further, the Turkana-IV-similar person is unlikely to be all that cooperative with the others; if anything, said individual is likely to ally with the inmate.

Hmm, I agree they'll have problems working together, but no worse than the group in Predators (probably less). Unless one of the criminals/rogues is really stupid they'll probably figure out pretty fast that they're going to have to work together at least temporarily to survive- the Marquis guy will likely make the same call Chakotay did and work with the Federation, and the prisoner is likely to either make a break for it at the start and get killed, or figure out that his best chance is to stick with the group of guys with the phasers. Not sure how the Turkana-IV guy will react. Presume he has a functioning brain, the biggest problem is likely to be the civilian breaking down and sobbing in a corner somewhere.

The folks in Predators ranged from convicts, serial killers to REAL trained soldiers with indications of previous trained soldiers being used for hunting practice. I.E These Predators are hunting people with a lot more firepower, intelligence, experience and training than the Federation employs at its peak.

How can you assume that the Federation guys will be less intelligent, other than mindless Federation bashing? And as for experience, I can safely say the Federation guys have more experience in dealing with aliens and alien worlds. Firepower, I honestly don't know.

Describing Starfleet combat experience as "negligible" is laughable. I mean, let's list known Starfleet wars (this is an incomplete list, and does not include random alien intruders/criminal incidents/first contacts gone bad/minor border disputes/etc.):

-Earth/Romulan War.
-Cardassia.
-Dominion War.

If you add in major military conflicts that are not officially designated as wars we can add the Borg to that list. Oh, and there's the whole Xindi thing from Enterprise.

We can't assume these are a bunch of people who've never seen a firefight in their lives. Particularly the Marquis and Turkana guys.

[Darth Fanboy]

JASON IF FEDS ON PLANIT ARE MACOS NO NEED TO WORRY BUT I WOULD NOT WANT TO BE REDSHIRT EVEN THO KIRK BEAT GORN.

WORF AND DATA BEET ALL PREDTORs

[Stofsk]

While I admit that I may not have phrased the statement as well as I should, had you read it a bit more, then you'd have realized that I'm not sayin "UFP has no prisons". I'm saying "UFP likely has prisons", which you validate by indicating that there was a TOS episode that featured a prison, and that "UFP likely has no death-row inmates".

Sorry. However, there was a death penalty offence in TOS (going to some planet or other as I recall).

TOS was inconsistent about this. In 'Menagerie' they said that visiting Talos IV was the only death penalty left on the books. In 'Turnabout Intruder' they said mutiny is a death penalty offence. Frankly though I like to pretend the latter episode never happened.

The folks in Predators ranged from convicts, serial killers to REAL trained soldiers with indications of previous trained soldiers being used for hunting practice. I.E These Predators are hunting people with a lot more firepower, intelligence, experience and training than the Federation employs at its peak.

How can you assume that the Federation guys will be less intelligent, other than mindless Federation bashing? And as for experience, I can safely say the Federation guys have more experience in dealing with aliens and alien worlds. Firepower, I honestly don't know.

Describing Starfleet combat experience as "negligible" is laughable. I mean, let's list known Starfleet wars (this is an incomplete list, and does not include random alien intruders/criminal incidents/first contacts gone bad/minor border disputes/etc.):

-Earth/Romulan War.
-Cardassia.
-Dominion War.

If you add in major military conflicts that are not officially designated as wars we can add the Borg to that list. Oh, and there's the whole Xindi thing from Enterprise.

We can't assume these are a bunch of people who've never seen a firefight in their lives. Particularly the Marquis and Turkana guys.

Quoted for truth. The Fed-bashing in this thread is fucking ridiculous, when in the Predator films you have highly trained soldiers who have zero experience in dealing with alien life or first contact situations, nor do they have the technology that the Federation would in this situation - which is why they got owned. Star Trek has Jem'Hadar who have a cloak that's very similar to the Predator's, Shapeshifters, Borg, opponents armed with weapons that disintegrate you (which is a tad bit more threatening than a razor sharp frizbee or the Predator's plasma cannon) and lots and lots of contact experience with alien life and alien worlds. The idea that these guys will just sit around too stupid to figure out they're being stalked, and then not do anything about it, is absurd.