How would Federation personal did throw movie Pradtors

[Vympel]

Star Trek has Jem'Hadar who have a cloak that's very similar to the Predator's,

That's true, but for the fact that they had to use Mk 1 Eyeball to spot Jem'Hadar. Their tricorders were AFAIK completely useless.

[Isolder74]

Sorry. However, there was a death penalty offence in TOS (going to some planet or other as I recall).

TOS was inconsistent about this. In 'Menagerie' they said that visiting Talos IV was the only death penalty left on the books. In 'Turnabout Intruder' they said mutiny is a death penalty offence. Frankly though I like to pretend the latter episode never happened.[/quote]

Actually the episode Turnabout Intruder states outright that Mutiny isn't a death penalty offense. In fact when 'Kirk' tries to impose said penalty is when they decide that Spock might be right and defy the orders of 'Kirk'

In fact they said the only exception was General Order 4, assuming that might refer to Talos IV.

[Stofsk]

Star Trek has Jem'Hadar who have a cloak that's very similar to the Predator's,

That's true, but for the fact that they had to use Mk 1 Eyeball to spot Jem'Hadar. Their tricorders were AFAIK completely useless.

Memory Alpha claims that it conceals against sensors, but in 'Rocks and Shoals' there was that lieutenant who was walking along with a tricorder out. However, the Jem'Hadar weren't shrouded at the time. So *throws my arms up in the air* who the fuck knows?

Actually the episode Turnabout Intruder states outright that Mutiny isn't a death penalty offense. In fact when 'Kirk' tries to impose said penalty is when they decide that Spock might be right and defy the orders of 'Kirk'

In fact they said the only exception was General Order 4, assuming that might refer to Talos IV.

That was General Order 7. But that could have been writer error. (i.e. meant 7 but wrote 4 by mistake) Or GO4 means something else. But you're right.

Anyway, I'd prefer to pretend that episode never happened.

[Sarevok]

The Jemhader in "Rocks and Shoals" had lost their shrouding ability due to running out of white. AFAIK they never use tricorders succesfully against healthy Jemhaeder. Not even the baby one that grew up in a station full of security personnel.

[JasonB]

The Jemhader in "Rocks and Shoals" had lost their shrouding ability due to running out of white. AFAIK they never use tricorders succesfully against healthy Jemhaeder. Not even the baby one that grew up in a station full of security personnel.

If wish to see evidence on how tircorder can pick Jem Harder that is cloaked watch this video form 10 minute and 35 seconds to about 10 minute and 41 seconds.

Also by way the UFP personal us tircorder to send out distress call as will.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_tricorder

[Night_stalker]

Yeah, call me a idiot, but when dealing with something like a Predator, I like to know where he is, preferably before he's within say, 5 feet of me, by which time, I won't really be able to do anything to help my odds of survival.



So what if they get off a SOS? All that means is well, more trophies-, I mean rescuers for the Predator. Seriously, if he's in a jungle, picking out one unidentified lifeform might be rather difficult. Plus, given the Predators don't strike me as the kind of people who... tolerate you calling in a ship for anything other than exfiltraiton.

[Sarevok]

Depends. We don't know how movie Predators would escalate if the Feddies called in their starship. EU Predators would see this as justification of breaking out war gear.

[Enigma]

The Jemhader in "Rocks and Shoals" had lost their shrouding ability due to running out of white. AFAIK they never use tricorders succesfully against healthy Jemhaeder. Not even the baby one that grew up in a station full of security personnel.

If wish to see evidence on how tircorder can pick Jem Harder that is cloaked watch this video form 10 minute and 35 seconds to about 10 minute and 41 seconds.<crap>

Also by way the UFP personal us tircorder to send out distress call as will.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_tricorder

Couldn't hear anything but just by visuals alone show that it didn't do Garak and Nog much good since the Jemmies appeared right in front of them.

[Shroom Man 777]

Or, no ship could be in range and the Predators just home into the tricorder's signal and have an easier time finding the Feds.

[JasonB]

Yeah, call me a idiot, but when dealing with something like a Predator, I like to know where he is, preferably before he's within say, 5 feet of me, by which time, I won't really be able to do anything to help my odds of survival.

So what if they get off a SOS? All that means is well, more trophies-, I mean rescuers for the Predator. Seriously, if he's in a jungle, picking out one unidentified lifeform might be rather difficult. Plus, given the Predators don't strike me as the kind of people who... tolerate you calling in a ship for anything other than exfiltraiton.

You openly guess a UFP starship going to send shuttlecraft down to beam down team away team to rescue those Federation citizens. More likely beam them up . Might want remind combage that starfleet office have and sector 31 guy likely have as will.

We did not known fast Jem Harder were running and not even scan for Jem Harder foot soldiers any-case or must likely pick up lot sooner . Also compare Jem Harder to Predator cloaking technology almost laughable. Predator sensor technology scan inf-red, heat and normal light however hardly make it equal. Tircorder sensor even subspace it self.

As for finding Praetor find Fed first hardly would be issues at least at first it likely they likely end up kill all three before took real lose . Beside not that hard find cave and seal enter in till help arrives.

[Darth Tanner]

Might want remind combage that starfleet office have and sector 31 guy likely have as will.

Why? As per the film the starfleet crew are there as prey, they have been abducted by the Preds through some unknown means and dumped on the planet. If the preds want they can simply take the comm badges off them before releasing them in the game reserve.

Also compare Jem Harder to Predator cloaking technology almost laughable

Why? The Jem'Hadar have to decloak to fight hand to hand or fire their guns. Preds do not.

Beside not that hard find cave and seal enter in till help arrives.

What caves? Why can the Preds not open up the caves that the Feds trap themselves in? Are Starfleet crews trained in geology so they dont kill themselves by bringing the roof in? How can they know how fast help is coming or if it even is?

UFP personal us tircorder to send out distress call as will.

With unlimited range?

Any way for the OP as per the film the dogs eat the starfleet crew in the first encounter.

[Shroom Man 777]

So he says that the best hope for the Federation troops is to hide like rats and wait for reinforcements, because they can't do the job themselves?

Concession accepted.

[JasonB]

Might want remind combage that starfleet office have and sector 31 guy likely have as will.

Why? As per the film the starfleet crew are there as prey, they have been abducted by the Preds through some unknown means and dumped on the planet. If the preds want they can simply take the comm badges off them before releasing them in the game reserve.

Also compare Jem Harder to Predator cloaking technology almost laughable

Why? The Jem'Hadar have to decloak to fight hand to hand or fire their guns. Preds do not.

Beside not that hard find cave and seal enter in till help arrives.

What caves? Why can the Preds not open up the caves that the Feds trap themselves in? Are Starfleet crews trained in geology so they dont kill themselves by bringing the roof in? How can they know how fast help is coming or if it even is?

UFP personal us tircorder to send out distress call as will.

With unlimited range?

Any way for the OP as per the film the dogs eat the starfleet crew in the first encounter.

No dogs would not take out easily hand phaser. Will see people starfleet do before bring roof down. If Praetor try going to try move tons of rock out way so that they get UFP personal. While they doing that Sector 31 guy can take aim with his TR-116 have some fun kill Praetors. Then and then can take in their tirocrder and study there Pradtor cloaking device allow Tr-116 rifle to able see Praetors and take Praetors mask adapt it able do same thing again knock cave walls wait for help tircorder is still send distress call.

[Darth Tanner]

No dogs would not take out easily hand phaser.

Really? Those dogs were pretty fast and tough. Hand phasers have been shown to vary in firepower and accuracy quite wildly but we would have to assume the feds knew the threat posed by the dogs immediately and set their weapons on max to take them out. Even then one dog getting through and its more or less over.

Will see people starfleet do before bring roof down

What

If Praetor try going to try move tons of rock out way so that they get UFP personal. While they doing that Sector 31 guy can take aim with his TR-116 have some fun kill Praetors.

It works through a lot of rock on invisible hunters does it? Also the Preds may well get the drop on the S31 agent while he is obsesseed with assasinating the Romans/Romulans.

Oh again what caves?

do same thing again knock cave walls wait for help tircorder is still send distress call.

So it not only has infinite range but works through a pile of rock?

[Connor MacLeod]

"Teh Pradtors wuld hide in a caav and wate fr tha feddiz to paz bi and than leep ut an slizze throo thayr pijimas.

Tah Praetor wuld complaan to the Pradtor cousul aboot teh keednapeeng and wuld levil sanktuns on the Pradtors.

This really isn't this hard though since firepower isn't as much of an issue since its likely a one hit kill either way (neither side seems especially heavily armored). Assuming that the Predator isn't hunting and is interested in making it "fair", then alot of what he/she/it will do depends on how he perceives the Feddies. If they somehow prove dangerous or difficult to hunt, then he/she/it probably won't hold back and it becomes an issue of how far away/how quickly the Feddies can detect the Predator with their tricorders (And if they can actually reach ti at range. I don't know what the range is on Predator shoulder cannon though.

If they prove less impressive or he judges them so, then he might start taking more risks to keep it interesting. It's not impossible for a "lesser" creature to take down a Predator, and there are alot of Federation types, so they could either just get lucky or simply swamp him with numbers if the Predator actually underestimates them or gets overconfident.

[PREDATOR490]

The Federation have been snatched and dumped on a Predator game reserve. What the Federation have on them would logically be limited to:

A) What they are likely to have on themselves at the time they were caught
B) What the Predators allow them to have

For this situation everyone gets weapons supposedly and thats phaser rifles, since the bullet rifle is in play one would assume its at a point after that thing was designed. Which was somewhere at DS9.
DS9 was using the TNG Phaser Rifle quite frequently

Other Federation Rifles

Depending on when and where they are abducted. The weapons they are carrying could be the TNG rifles, the TNG movie rifles or the Compression rifles used by Voyager.
Almost all of them seem to be capable of wide angle setting but the range has never been observed or how powerful it can go. The 16 setting crap dosent help much since the range goes from 1 - Stun to 16 - Vaporise with cutting, heating, burning, etc. in between.

If a rifle hits a Predator at max setting - thats going to be an instant KO. Just like a Plasmacaster hitting a Fed is going to blow a hole in them.

How long they can sustain firing at that level remains completely unknown. What is know is Federation rifles were reputed to be less desirable by the Bajoran fighters because they were too complex. Hardly surprising with the Federation's desire to shove lots of shit into things and their reliance on fancy gizmos.

Result: We have folks running around with weapons that dont seem to have scopes and look rather easy to break. Picard certainly broke one in ST Nemesis so their sturdiness for wear and tear does not look good. Especially in a jungle environment running for your life.

Dogs would be taken out by hand phaser - It's not like phaser beams have been dodged in the past but ok.

The dogs were sent to flush them out while the Predators watched what they did.
Congratulations: The Predators now know their prey has weapons that can vaporise things.

Additionally, the dogs were ALSO used as a diversion while one of the group got whacked and setup in a trap.
I dont see many Star Trek personal being trained hunters or trackers so they may not get the invaulable insight granted to the group like they did in Predators.
Christ, most of the team could end up getting killed just from the traps laid by the Special Forces dude at the beginning when they had no idea what the fuck was going on.

THEN you have the wounded soldier trap - I could easily see one or more Feds rushing to help a wounded pal and getting caught in the trap. The only real saving grace is they Tricorder MIGHT allow them to detect the guy is obviously dead.
Have tricorders been shown to detect traps ?

Assuming whats left of the people make it this far into the movie:
They now have to make a choice to either
A: Run
or
B: Turn and fight the Predators like they did in the movie

A: The Predators continue to stalk them and they walk into unknown amounts of traps / ambushes w/e left lying.

B) They go to the Predator camp and then get ambushed by three Predators opening up with plasmacaster fire.

Once again: The technology being used by these Predators is supposed to be better than what we have seen before given the decades between the movies AND the fact it's a different species or something. As it is, their cloak was nearly perfect to the point they could not be seen unless they wanted to be or were moving extensively. Even with all of the group opening fire at close range they didnt manage to hit a single one, one was standing impaling one of the team through the chest without any visible injury.

Federation rifles have never been shown to have the kind of rapid fire equal to a minigun and the wide beam setting would be monumentally dangerous to fire in that situation due to friendly fire and the Predators returning fire with their plasmacasters.

Assuming any of them make it out of THIS: They meet Morpheous.

A) He kills them in their sleep
B) They use their vaporise setting to 'cave in' the place and hide out - But now they are stuck until they run out of ammo / food / supplies
C) They attract the Predators and defend helplessly until they get smoked out or all die.

... If Praetor try going to try move tons of rock out way so that they get UFP personal. While they doing that Sector 31 guy can take aim with his TR-116 have some fun kill Praetors.

Why would they bother moving tons of rocks when they can bring their ship over to nuke them ?
They can just as easily go back to their ship and haul out some heavy ordinance to blast the place while the UFP dudes sit stuck in a hole. Alternatively the Predators sit and wait until they HAVE to come out for food / water.

UFP are going to lose a battle of attrition here and a fucking pop-gun does nothing to help.
A) The rifle only works until it runs out of bullets and they have no means of getting more
B) The rifle requires a headset to target and that headset should no ability to see invisible targets. Thus the Predators cant be touched unless they de-cloak
C) Almost all of the gear by this point will have been soaked after they fall in the water, slogged through mud and had their asses repeatedly kicked. The chances of it being broken, damaged or malfunctioning become rather high. Leave the UFP with broken toys and fuck all to fight with.
D) Even if the headset works, the micro transporter will have limitations on range, power and accuracy. Being buried under tons of rock could easily prevent the transporter from working and eventually run out of power.
E) Even WITH that rifle, the Predators are used to dealing with projectile weaponary. Multiple times bullets have bounced off Predators or had no effect while the ones that hit flesh dont cause massive damage.

Predator 2 showed one getting plastered multiple times at close range and it was STILL able to keep fighting. The TR rifle was never shown to inflict that kind of damage so your magical gun isnt going to be a magical saviour.


Waiting for reinforcements ?
Where the the fuck from ?

Distress signals have never been shown to travel interstellar distances and thats the ranges they are going to require to travel to reach a Starfleet vessel. With no idea where they are in the galaxy, they dont even know what direction to send it or if the Predators will jam / intercept any kind of rescue.

Regardless, the UFP are fucked in this scenario without question. Its only a matter of how quickly and how hard they get fucked.

[Enigma]

Once again Jason shows us all the moron that he is. Again he doesn't budge and tries to find ways for the UFP to win. I'm just surprised that he has yet to bring up the MACOs or "little bitch painters" as I like to call them.

[The Romulan Republic]

Honestly, if the Tricorder can detect cloaked Predators, its not all that unreasonable that the Federation could take out the first few. Of course, they'll probably eventually be worn down as future groups of Predators show up to hunt them, unless they can get off-planet somehow. So they win the battle, lose the war.

[Darth Fanboy]

OK WIDE BeEm STUN USe PHASOR TIE TO TREE GET WHOLE FORSET

[Enigma]

Honestly, if the Tricorder can detect cloaked Predators, its not all that unreasonable that the Federation could take out the first few. Of course, they'll probably eventually be worn down as future groups of Predators show up to hunt them, unless they can get off-planet somehow. So they win the battle, lose the war.

It probably won't go that far. If the shot is fatal but not instant, I foresee a small mushroom cloud when the Feddies come to inspect the fallen Pred.

[PREDATOR490]

Honestly, if the Tricorder can detect cloaked Predators, its not all that unreasonable that the Federation could take out the first few. Of course, they'll probably eventually be worn down as future groups of Predators show up to hunt them, unless they can get off-planet somehow. So they win the battle, lose the war.

The clip above would indicate Jem Hadar can approach from directly ahead without being detected until a few feet away

In the movie the Predators had no quams about shooting in the back. The Russian dude gets plastered with a plasmacaster in the back, the African (?) dude gets shot through the chest, then impaled with a spear. Hell, even the Deathrow inmate gets hammered in the back from a plasmacaster shot - saved only by the fact he was wearing Predator body armor.

Even WITH the ability to detect the Predators, what are the Feds going to do ?

Tricorder dude: I'm picking up something
Random dude: Where ?
Tricorder dude: Over there (Points in direction)
Random dude: I dont see anything ?
-Plasmacaster round to the back, Spear through the chest. etc-

Having to wield a Tricorder in one hand with a two-handed rifle in the other is going to be cumbersome to say the least and hosing the forest with wide angle sweeps every few feet would be insane. It broadcasts their position, potentially roasts the area and consumes ammo on the slight chance they can hit a Predator and far enough that it cant outrange them with a plasmacaster.

These Predators were shown to be dodging fire from a mini-gun and shotgun fire even at close range. Phaser rifles dont fire that fast and wide angle fire in DS9 was a vertical sweep. If wide angle was an effective crowd control mechanic one would expect them to have use it in the Siege of AR-558 which was effectively a wide open bottleneck. I do not see this setting magically helping them in a jungle against invisible / agile targets.

[JasonB]

Honestly, if the Tricorder can detect cloaked Predators, its not all that unreasonable that the Federation could take out the first few. Of course, they'll probably eventually be worn down as future groups of Predators show up to hunt them, unless they can get off-planet somehow. So they win the battle, lose the war.

The clip above would indicate Jem Hadar can approach from directly ahead without being detected until a few feet away

In the movie the Predators had no quams about shooting in the back. The Russian dude gets plastered with a plasmacaster in the back, the African (?) dude gets shot through the chest, then impaled with a spear. Hell, even the Deathrow inmate gets hammered in the back from a plasmacaster shot - saved only by the fact he was wearing Predator body armor.

Even WITH the ability to detect the Predators, what are the Feds going to do ?

Tricorder dude: I'm picking up something
Random dude: Where ?
Tricorder dude: Over there (Points in direction)


Random dude: I dont see anything ?
-Plasmacaster round to the back, Spear through the chest. etc-

Having to wield a Tricorder in one hand with a two-handed rifle in the other is going to be cumbersome to say the least and hosing the forest with wide angle sweeps every few feet would be insane. It broadcasts their position, potentially roasts the area and consumes ammo on the slight chance they can hit a Predator and far enough that it cant outrange them with a plasmacaster.

These Predators were shown to be dodging fire from a mini-gun and shotgun fire even at close range. Phaser rifles dont fire that fast and wide angle fire in DS9 was a vertical sweep. If wide angle was an effective crowd control mechanic one would expect them to have use it in the Siege of AR-558 which was effectively a wide open bottleneck. I do not see this setting magically helping them in a jungle against invisible / agile targets.

In practice UFP soldier likely armed something call hand grenade were not need know were tircorder give more then enough information to were Predator location here example what UFP hand granade can do If wish see UFP hand grenade can did watch video form from 19 seconds to about 45 seconds.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldzSczLk ... dded#at=19

[Srelex]

What you had there was an antigen bomb--a one-off device created in an emergency. Try again.

[JasonB]

What you had there was an antigen bomb--a one-off device created in an emergency. Try again.

Unlikely she pick up before she get doctor what this vidoe and see for your self. 43 seconds to about to 59 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhuGW1hMLS8

Also watch other video put be four see different piece equelement she seem attach the antigen bomb to it.

[The Romulan Republic]

These Predators were shown to be dodging fire from a mini-gun and shotgun fire even at close range. Phaser rifles dont fire that fast and wide angle fire in DS9 was a vertical sweep. If wide angle was an effective crowd control mechanic one would expect them to have use it in the Siege of AR-558 which was effectively a wide open bottleneck. I do not see this setting magically helping them in a jungle against invisible / agile targets.

In Voyager, when an alien is possessing crew members, someone (Tuvok I think) wide-beam stuns the entire bridge crew. Yes, it was at close range, and yes, it was only stun (not kill or vaporize), but it is possible to take out a group with one shot using phasers.

Edit: no idea why they didn't use it in the Seige of AR-558. Different type of phaser? Low on power? Incompetence? Who knows?