Freeing Invid-occupied Earth (RAR!)

[lord Martiya]

A Robotech-based RAR: fight the final battle of the Third Robotech War in place of the Robotech Expeditionary Force deploying an armada from another sci-fi universe.


Invid assets: Earth's Invids make use of small one-man mechas only, of five types: hive guard (infantry only, will not appear in space), scout (very lightly armored and vulnerable to small arms, has no standard ranged weapon but can be fitted with two light plasma cannons. His only individual advantage is extreme speed/acceleration. Pilot is controlled by a 'brain' Invid somewhere else), trooper (similar to the scout, only bigger and better armored. No standard weapon, but can be fitted with two light plasma cannons, becoming the shock trooper. The pilot is similar to the scout one, but has some free will and actual intelligence), pincer (essentially a beefed up shock trooper whose plasma weapon can do some actual damage to starship armor. Its pilot has full free will and intelligence and may be found directing other Invids) and Gosu (elite mecha. It's slow as the shock trooper and carries light weapons, but is more manouverable and includes short range missiles. The pilot is a humanoid Invid with high intelligence and full free will, and is a capable dogfighter and commander). The Invids can produce combat starship, but Earth Invids made no use of them, and their only ships are unarmed carriers used in this scenario to bring the Invids in orbit. Their basic sensors are relatively primitive, as they're too used at detecting their enemies via protoculture detectors, so your fleet should be able to arrive halfway between Earth and Moon's orbit before they start scrambling their forces. Last thing: there is a LOT of Invid, at least a few millions, and they're ALL going to the carriers to reach orbit and come at you, with the scouts trying to kamikaze your ships. That's why they were defeating the REF: they could afford to lose a thousand scouts for every REF mecha destroyed, and they 'only' lost an average of fifty for every REF mecha destroyed.

Your assets: first, no Star Wars nor Warhammer 40000, we want to reconquer Earth as intact as possible, not to devastate the world with the stray shots. Second, you can use only a numerical equivalent of the REF armada at the final battle, so you'll have 1 big-ass battleship (in place of the Liberator, a 1300 m battleship), 4-5 smaller battleship (counterparts of the Shimakaze-class cruisers, whose main gun is a one shot-one kill weapon that fires every ten second), around 40 line vessels (equivalent of the Ikazuchi-class cruisers, standard wall cruisers of the REF) and 200 light combat vessels (in place of the light cruisers of the Garfish class), with a few thousands fighters and small attack crafts.

Friendly assets: your main objective, Reflex Point (an Invid hive complex in the Great Lakes region), is not sending its forces in orbit because it's under attack from a partisan force armed by your faction. The partisan force is composed by around ten thousands veteran soldiers who survived earlier attacks, but lacks in command and control due being assembled only a few days earlier from dozens of different bands, and once the battle starts it will be an horde of platoon-level units (at best), reinforced piecemeal by civilian members of the original partisan bands (originally excluded from the attack, once it begins they start joining the battle on their own. They're as good as the military due to battle experience).

Limit: once you lose 50% ships (either by utter destruction or crippling) without breaking through Reflex Point, you have orders to launch high-powered warheads to exterminate the Invid at the cost of devastating Earth, at which point the Invids will destroy the warheads and run away after depleting every energy reserve on Earth, leaving you unable to get new fuel reserves (only a year at normal operation level) and forced to fight the guys that gave you the planet-killing missiles with no time to repair your ships.


Have fun.

[Vehrec]

Time to break the game.

How do high-powered psychics work against these guys? Would I be able to perform double psychic reach-around?

We'll want something with a lot of point defense-big guns are going to be wasted here. A lot of range will help as well.

Can I us Excellion from Gunbuster as my big battleship? It's pretty much designed for fighting staggering numbers under overwhelming odds.

[Ahriman238]

Time Lords destroy the universe and ascend. For the Win.

No need for a massive fleet, I'll take my big battleship in the form of a Culture GSV. That should make quick work of any space forces, and since I armed the ground insurgents with the same tech I'm bringing into this universe, they should have it pretty much under control.

[lord Martiya]

I KNEW I forgot a gamebreaker... OK, Ahriman238, you just won the Third and the Fourth Robotech War, the latter even before it started. Poor Haydonites have no chance...

How do high-powered psychics work against these guys? Would I be able to perform double psychic reach-around?

Psychic power doesn't work well with the Invids: the so-called Invid brains and the Regis (supreme leader of the Invid race) are powerful psychics, and while they refrain from using their powers offensively they DO protect their race.

We'll want something with a lot of point defense-big guns are going to be wasted here. A lot of range will help as well.

I think you just got the real problem of the REF: after fighting the Regent's Invids they expected Earth's Invids to fight the same way, with a not so great numerical superiority and some small combat vessels, so their new vessels (the Liberator and Ikazuchi and Shimakaze cruisers) were intended to make short work of the combat vessels and the relatively few carriers. Too bad that Earth was the perfect place for the Invids to refuel and reproduce... Go for it.

Can I us Excellion from Gunbuster as my big battleship? It's pretty much designed for fighting staggering numbers under overwhelming odds.

About the Excellion... Use it. Just looked at it, it seems the right ship for the job.

[mr friendly guy]

Would this be more interesting if we challenge the participants to use the sci fi universe with the least advanced tech to win? Personally I think if you just use treknology, it should be enough, assuming they can make mecha out of Trek materials. Now obviously mecha have problems vs ships, but I figure it will be too hard to ask the fleet to readjust all their tactics.

I think when the Invid deploy those carrier ships (of which the Invid mecha) come out of, just beam in a bomb and blow them up, before the carrier opens its lid. Even Janeway thought of that strategy.

If you can have shielded ships, with the shields adjusted so your mecha and shoot through the shields, but the Invid can't shoot back, then chances are you are going to demolish most of the Invid in space. After that use your attack troops to finish off reflex point.

Or since I have knowledge of the Robotech series, fire blank missiles adjusted to give off technobabble technobabble radiation making it seem like a WMD has been targeted at Earth. The Invid Regis will use most of her energy and protoculture to stop the fake missiles. If she doesn't flee like the OTL, she must be weak for your Trek mixed mecha to deal with.

[DrStrangelove]

UN Spacy from Macross, Zentraedi from Macross, a fleet from Mass effect, Any of the major races from B5, The Humankind Empire Abh, trek could win in space, Book SST, and plenty more. Invid are pretty dumb.

[lord Martiya]

You need to keep the numbers similar to the original REF fleet. So, let's see the ones I know and can tell without searching around.

A Macross Zentradi fleet, given the tonnage difference between a REF heavy cruiser and its Tuverl Salan counterpart and the Regult numbers, could give them a desperate run for their money, but don't forget the Invids have a LOT of experience dealing with them (Zentradi in both series behaves pretty much the same, tactically wise) while Macross Zentradi have none. Maybe a Meltran fleet could win, given how good those pilots are...

UN Spacy, let me see... They have a stealth device that make them pretty much invisible to radars, so they could launch a devastating first strike against the Invid and give them an hell of trouble in space combat. About the actual fleet, the closest equivalent are a New Macross-class monitor (main gun much more powerful but its recharge time is measured in hours, has an helluva lot more point defense guns), 4-5 Haruna-class stealth cruisers (three heavy guns lifted from Zentradi vessels, a lot of AA guns and a main punch provided by 24 missile launchers loaded with nukes, I think they're the closest thing Macross has to the Shimakaze), 40 carriers (mostly Guantanamo, smaller and carrying less fighters than the Uraga but with more weapons) and 200 Northampton frigates, all loaded with fighters. Now, I need the time period: a 2030-2050 fleet would use VF-11 Thunderbolt (standard) and VF-17 Nightmare (rare but not too much) non-stealth fighters with an handful of VB-6 Konig Monster heavt bomber and, from 2045, VF-19 and VF-22 stealth fighters, and may fail for the 50% limit. After 2050 the Nightmare plus has effectively replaced the Thunderbolt and the Nightmare as the main fighter, and being that a slightly downgraded Nightmare with the stealth device, they could win.

UFP... Just got a good laugh at imagining the Invid trying to ram a Jem'hadar fleet. OK, now I stop joking, and I think Starfleet would ultimately win. Forgot about those shields and proximity-fused torpedoes... Their land party would be exterminated, but the space battle would ultimately be theirs, I think: phasers against the paper-armored carriers and proximity-fused torpedoes against the launched mechas, with Peregrines (Scorpions and mini-BOP for Romulans and Klingon fleet if we deploy them) dealing with stragglers. Just a little thing: the Invids had to face the Zentradi for centuries, and even Robotech Zentradi had an hell of jamming power (don't know how it works, but if they want to sneak on you your realization there's a thousand Regults tailing you comes from the absence of INTERFERENCES and glitches in the area they are. Actually happened), and if they reverse-engineereed anything half as good as that beaming torpedoes onboard is not an option.

B5... Only the Minbari and betters. Of the rest, EA would give them a desperate run for their money with interceptors, but after a while they would overheat.

[Whiskey144]

I bid one Revelation Space lighthugger (4km long), complete with:

Inertia Suppressors (high-g acceleration capable)
Cryoarithmetic engines (cools surface for stealth)
Hypometric weapons (wealky acausal in operation, can affect several light-hours worth of space)
40 Cache weapons (large crate-like weapons, ranging from RKV launchers to giant grasers to gravity things* to other wierd stuff)
200,000 troops in Reefersleep (RS-verse cryostasis), each one of which will be equipped with a suit**

This is all I bid. The lighthugger will eliminate the orbiting forces, whilst the troops will be warmed up, suited up, and then deployed from orbit. After that, they proceed to eliminate all enemy resistance.

I will now get some popcorn to watch the show.

*the gravity-thing is a particular cache weapon which uses gravitational waves to destroy things. Known to be reusable, capable of destroying a small moon/planetoid (can't remember offhand), and believed by a knowledgeable character to be likely of world-level destruction. Confirmed to have a range of ~100 AU.

**the "suit" in question is effectively a mini 1-man spaceship in a humanoid form; while unshielded the armor is very effective at deflecting various types of weapons fire; is armed with an assortment of lasers, particle beams, plasma projectors, and "ack-ams", which fire "matter-caulked" antimatter pulses at near-c velocity. Capable of doing a 3-5g boost, SSTO (and back). Can also operate autonomously to a limited extent, and is capable of supersonic flight with human occupant (hypersonic w/o).

[doom3607]

I summon the Honorverse! First up, the big ship is one non-Apollo podnaught, with the little battleships being CLACs carrying full loads of Katanas. The line vessels... well, in the Honorverse they wouldn't be, but forty BC(P)s can fire insane amounts of missiles. And the 200 light vessels... Meh. Two hundred tin cans. They have shitloads of PD and CM.

Good-bye, Invid. We'll send in the tin cans and the LACs and just bombard them from Mars. As for the partisans... ten thousand people in power armour, heavily armed, even if they are inexperienced, are probably able to do insane damage.

[VF5SS]

If you watch Mospeada all you can see is that the Inbit are terrible villains. The only reason they conquered the earth was because the Mars Base forces were equally terrible.

[doom3607]

This affects my SD(P) and BC(P)s in Mars orbit how?

[lord Martiya]

It doesn't.

If you watch Mospeada all you can see is that the Inbit are terrible villains. The only reason they conquered the earth was because the Mars Base forces were equally terrible.

The Robotech version managed to justify it: the Invids conquered Earth because the Southern Cross Armies and the Robotech Masters had nearly wiped out each other and the REF at the time had been depleted by fighting other Invids and reinforcing the Southern Cross (we see on screen the arrival of the Hannibal, a Tokugawa-class carrier from the REF, and in the Mospeada-derived part of the series we find out that the Hannibal arrived with other unseen ships, including a Garfish-class light cruiser that survived undetected for years), and when the REF had recovered had assumed Earth-based Invids wouldn't be THAT numerous and would act like the ones fought previously, with MANY less mechas supported by small and fragile but well-armed corvettes, so they didn't get the needed point defense weapons. And the Invid practice to exterminate any REF vessel coming too near prevented them to find out what they were facing until a couple days before the final battle, when it was too late to add the CIWS and they believed they needed to attack immediately before the Invids simply became too many and started overrunning the galaxy.

[DrStrangelove]

You need to keep the numbers similar to the original REF fleet. So, let's see the ones I know and can tell without searching around.

A Macross Zentradi fleet, given the tonnage difference between a REF heavy cruiser and its Tuverl Salan counterpart and the Regult numbers, could give them a desperate run for their money, but don't forget the Invids have a LOT of experience dealing with them (Zentradi in both series behaves pretty much the same, tactically wise) while

Macross zentraedi have nothing in common with robotech. In particular zentradi ships survive 100 kiloton+ reaction weapons, and dont explode from having tiny mecha crash into them at a few hundred m/s.

Macross Zentradi have none. Maybe a Meltran fleet could win, given how good those pilots are...

UN Spacy, let me see... They have a stealth device that make them pretty much invisible to radars, so they could launch a devastating first strike against the Invid and give them an hell of trouble in space combat. About the actual fleet, the closest equivalent are a New Macross-class monitor (main gun much more powerful but its recharge time is measured in hours, has an helluva lot more point defense guns), 4-5 Haruna-class stealth cruisers (three heavy guns lifted from Zentradi vessels, a lot of AA guns and a main punch provided by 24 missile launchers loaded with nukes, I think they're the closest thing Macross has to the Shimakaze), 40 carriers (mostly Guantanamo, smaller and carrying less fighters than the Uraga but with more weapons) and 200 Northampton frigates, all loaded with fighters. Now, I need the time period: a 2030-2050 fleet would use VF-11 Thunderbolt (standard) and VF-17 Nightmare (rare but not too much) non-stealth fighters with an handful of VB-6 Konig Monster heavt bomber and, from 2045, VF-19 and VF-22 stealth fighters, and may fail for the 50% limit. After 2050 the Nightmare plus has effectively replaced the Thunderbolt and the Nightmare as the main fighter, and being that a slightly downgraded Nightmare with the stealth device, they could win.

Time frame doesnt matter post 2020. Macross is inherently superior to robotech

B5... Only the Minbari and betters. Of the rest, EA would give them a desperate run for their money with interceptors, but after a while they would overheat.

Starfuries have demonstrated superior ability compared to an invid. EA ships withstand nuke level firepower for short periods. Invid lack firepower and durability

[lord Martiya]

Macross zentraedi have nothing in common with robotech. In particular zentradi ships survive 100 kiloton+ reaction weapons, and dont explode from having tiny mecha crash into them at a few hundred m/s.

As far I've seen in the series, the major differences between the two variants of the Zentradi are that Robotech's have reflex cannons (heavy converging beam cannons in Macross) only on the monitors while Macross's have on the flagships too, Robotech's still have Glaug factories and ships in better conditions while Macross's lost their Glaug factories and depend on caches for those and do no maintenance, and Robotech's are powered by nuclear fusion augmented by by dwindling supplies of Protoculture while Macross's are powered from hyperspace energy. After all, the tactics, jamming and firepower, both used and absorbed by their ships, was pretty much the same, unless you give source status to the Palladium RPG, who can't even get many mecha names right (the Palladium RPG calls Earth's main ground mecha the Excalibur. The Robotech site calls it Destroid Tomahawk).

Time frame doesnt matter post 2020. Macross is inherently superior to robotech

The superiority is true, their ships and variable fighters are better designed, and the fighters have superior acceleration, manouverability and weapons (on ship levels, Robotech ships have a parity with the infamous synchro cannon), plus they have the nifty stealth ability that the Invids can't pierce by searching for protoculture-augmented fusion reactions. Still, there is a LOT of Invids, and a battlefleet of that size would in the end get destroyed once the fighter cover is destroyed (they can still SEE the ships). That's why stealth-capable fighters would be crucial: as the Invids can't see them as easy with their eyes, they would be a lot more difficult to destroy and remain capable to cover their ships as they finish the carriers (without them, Invid mechas are stranded on Earth and vulnerable to orbital bombings, unless they take the equally suicidal decision to use their mobile hives to get them into orbit: the hives are a much bigger and slower target, and can't deploy the mechas as fast as the carriers).

Starfuries have demonstrated superior ability compared to an invid. EA ships withstand nuke level firepower for short periods. Invid lack firepower and durability

True. But, I repeat, there are MILLIONS of them. Invids would incur into horrible losses, but in the end the sheer numbers of Invids would destroy even an EA fleet with a Warlock as the bigass battleship and four Shadow Omegas as the Shimakaze equivalents.

[DrStrangelove]

As far I've seen in the series, the major differences between the two variants of the Zentradi are that Robotech's have reflex cannons (heavy converging beam cannons in Macross) only on the monitors while Macross's have on the flagships too, Robotech's still have Glaug factories and ships in better conditions while Macross's lost their Glaug factories and depend on caches for those and do no maintenance, and Robotech's are powered by nuclear fusion augmented by by dwindling supplies of Protoculture while Macross's are powered from hyperspace energy.

Numerous flaws in your simplistic assessment. 1. no indication RT Zentradi can repair or their ships were in better condition. 2. the operational mechanics of reaction engines are unknown. 3. you are completely ignoring the written background sources for Macross. The Zentradi attack almost completely destroyed the biosphere of Earth, < 1 million survivors,atmospheric reclamation necessary, along with the mass cloning of human,animal, and plant life. Translations of the Macross Chronicle and other written sources have revealed reaction warheads range from .5 kiloton missiles carried by mecha to 10 gigaton warheads carried by warships. Far exceeding the known capabilities of their RT counterparts

After all, the tactics, jamming and firepower, both used and absorbed by their ships, was pretty much the same, unless you give source status to the Palladium RPG, who can't even get many mecha names right (the Palladium RPG calls Earth's main ground mecha the Excalibur. The Robotech site calls it Destroid Tomahawk).

As I have said the background for Macross is almost completely different, other than the edited material seen onscreen in RT. Case in point according to the main Macross timeline the trip from Pluto took ~9 months, compared to 13 in RT, and ~6 months in the DYRL timeline

The superiority is true, their ships and variable fighters are better designed, and the fighters have superior acceleration, manouverability and weapons (on ship levels, Robotech ships have a parity with the infamous synchro cannon), plus they have the nifty stealth ability that the Invids can't pierce by searching for protoculture-augmented fusion reactions. Still, there is a LOT of Invids, and a battlefleet of that size would in the end get destroyed once the fighter cover is destroyed (they can still SEE the ships). That's why stealth-capable fighters would be crucial: as the Invids can't see them as easy with their eyes, they would be a lot more difficult to destroy and remain capable to cover their ships as they finish the carriers (without them, Invid mechas are stranded on Earth and vulnerable to orbital bombings, unless they take the equally suicidal decision to use their mobile hives to get them into orbit: the hives are a much bigger and slower target, and can't deploy the mechas as fast as the carriers).

Again a simplistic assessment. Without evidence you have asserted invid will be able to ram Macross ships to death, no such act was observed in RT(not that it matters background fluff indicates even SW1 equipment was superior to its RT counterpart), and written sources have given all VFs and post SW1 ships active stealth systems. I find your assessment of synchro cannons being equivalent to macross cannons to also be lacking in evidence. Another point UN Spacy and Zentraedi ships possess point defenses outside their fighters, and have been seen to use their WMDs to wipe out mass formations of mecha.

True. But, I repeat, there are MILLIONS of them. Invids would incur into horrible losses, but in the end the sheer numbers of Invids would destroy even an EA fleet with a Warlock as the bigass battleship and four Shadow Omegas as the Shimakaze equivalents.

And so just how many invid scouts does it take to equal a 20 kiloton impact. Babtech calced an Omegas main laser at 9 Kt/s which was seen to barely harm another Omega. The same Omega was also seen to have additionally taken another several hits from B5's main guns which Babtech calced at 3-60 kilotons per shot before being destroyed.

[weemadando]

SG-1 appear through a secret stargate due to some anomaly. Get captured, realise they have to free the earth before they can return home.

Some time after this, they win.

[lord Martiya]

1. no indication RT Zentradi can repair or their ships were in better condition.

As far I know, it's not the Zentradi who repaired their own ships, it was the Tirolians (Khyron makes a big deal of learning the ability as much as his counterpart Kamjin did). Who at the time still had the needed shipyards (it would be the Invids to destroy them, once they realized there were little Zentradi left), even if degrading in performance due to protoculture shortage. About the indication of the Tirolians repairing the ships, it's a comparison between Kamjin and Khyron to give it: when Kamjin's monitor Bakrorella (the name sounded like this) 'accidentally' destroyed the Macross' radar he asked if they still had the old cripple, in his version Khyron asked if they had yet REPAIRED the crippled (apparently not, if he managed to avoid Breetai's wrath).

2. the operational mechanics of reaction engines are unknown.

As far I know, heavy converging beam cannons use hyperspace energy. Where do they get it from? Kinda recall the Macross not being able to fire its heavy converging beam cannon because without the fold device they couldn't link it to the REACTION ENGINE...

3. you are completely ignoring the written background sources for Macross. The Zentradi attack almost completely destroyed the biosphere of Earth, < 1 million survivors,atmospheric reclamation necessary, along with the mass cloning of human,animal, and plant life. Translations of the Macross Chronicle and other written sources have revealed reaction warheads range from .5 kiloton missiles carried by mecha to 10 gigaton warheads carried by warships. Far exceeding the known capabilities of their RT counterparts

The only thing we know about Robotech's firepower is that Khyron's task force gave us the same show of force that Kamjin's did, destroying the very same asteroid with the same number of vessels. True, Dolza's Rain of Death was less damaging than Bodolza's, but that can be attributed to Bodolza having superior numbers (background sources number his fleet as 4,795,122 ships, minus around a thousand ships that deserted and joined Earth's defense, against around four millions for Dolza's fleet) and Dolza's ships suffering from protoculture shortage a lot more than Bodolza's from scarce maintenance.

As I have said the background for Macross is almost completely different, other than the edited material seen onscreen in RT. Case in point according to the main Macross timeline the trip from Pluto took ~9 months, compared to 13 in RT, and ~6 months in the DYRL timeline

Ignoring DYRL as in-universe is a bad history movie that gave Macross' Valkyries the Strike-configuration FAST packs that would be introduced after the war, the discrepance can be explained by Macross being launched in the original on february 7th and starting the travel from Pluto on the 19th or the 20th (we have an exact date for the launch and know that Macross was starting the travel back when Minmay and Ichijo were recovered after missing for 12 days) and being launched later in the same month and starting the travel back in march in the RT version (the official site's timeline give us february as launch date and march as the start of the travel from Pluto). The different relative positions of Earth, Mars, Saturn and Pluto (the celestial bodies touched by the ship in the voyage home) would force a different route and different ways for the Zentradi to ambush the Macross on Mars.

Again a simplistic assessment. Without evidence you have asserted invid will be able to ram Macross ships to death, no such act was observed in RT(not that it matters background fluff indicates even SW1 equipment was superior to its RT counterpart), and written sources have given all VFs and post SW1 ships active stealth systems.

Uh... The Invids DID ram REF ships to death multiple times. They have been observed doing that with Garfish-class light cruisers and Ikazuchi-class battlecruisers, first incident of both in the very first episode they appeared.
And about the stealth system, if it was on fighters since the beginning then how is that veteran pilot Isamu Alva Dyson is surprised by the YF-21 prototype having it?
And for the ships... The stealth system of UN Spacy ships is quite good against radars, but Invid scouts have OPTICAL CAMERAS. You know, the eye-like thing on the mecha... And as they have enough brain to look around, with their numbers and a very approximate position given by the trajectory of the missiles, lasers and railgun slugs of the first shot at least ONE of them is bound to see where the ships are, with his brain indicating the targets to the rest of the squadron, the other brains and the autonomous Invids. Then the ramming start. On the other hand, active stealth fighters are to small and fast for that to work until they've already shot down a squadron, and the Invids would still had quite the problem at firing at their general position.

I find your assessment of synchro cannons being equivalent to macross cannons to also be lacking in evidence.

I did not compare the synchro cannons to heavy converging beam cannons (or Macross Cannons). The Macross Cannon is comparable to the reflex cannon in firing an high-gigaton beam but needing hours to recharge (recharge time inferred from statements from the captain of the Battle 7: after firing the weapon, he needed hours to get the energy to power the fold drive and inferred he would still need some time to fire the weapon again).
The synchro cannon is, in fact, a better weapon for a pitched battle, as its inferior firepower (demonstrated power of the ship-mounted version sufficient to obliterate an Invid carrier but not remotely comparable to a reflex cannon) is offset by a recharge time measurable in SECONDS.
And in Robotech the two weapons are stated to be for completely different uses: the reflex cannon is an orbital bombardament weapon, the synchro cannon is a one-shot-one-kill anti-ship weapon for pitched battles.

Another point UN Spacy and Zentraedi ships possess point defenses outside their fighters, and have been seen to use their WMDs to wipe out mass formations of mecha.

I recall those incidents, and that RT Macross did the same on a particularly foolish Zentradi horde of battlepods and fighters while aiming at their mothership. The fact is that there are millions of Invids, that could overwhelm the point defenses (in the space part of the battle of Reflex Point we didn't even saw the total of Invid forces, they were still taking off as general Reinhardt ordered to deploy the Neutron-S missiles), even if paying a steep price.
The fact is that Invids are USED at being targeted with weapons that can wipe them out en masse, and the very first thing they do on leaving their carriers is disperding exactly to prevent being wiped out by a single nuke with a proximity fuse or a timer. That's why fighters are necessary, to hunt them down and prevent them from mounting attacks on the cruisers.

And so just how many invid scouts does it take to equal a 20 kiloton impact. Babtech calced an Omegas main laser at 9 Kt/s which was seen to barely harm another Omega. The same Omega was also seen to have additionally taken another several hits from B5's main guns which Babtech calced at 3-60 kilotons per shot before being destroyed.

I think around a thousand, that in the end would start to pass as interceptors overheat. And if they do the obvious thing and ram the same weak point, as they did in both space battles they were shown fighting on screen (Invids tend to ram the weapon turret of Garfish vessels and aim for the hangars and the bridge of Ikazuchi battlecruisers), they may cripple the vessel and take their time to destroy it later once there is no resistance left.

[Vehrec]

Since I'm back-let's pick out the next segment of my fleet. Since I've picked the Exelion, I've got a Carrier/battleship, that has armed it's mecha with Californium warheads. And it fights at multi-AU ranges. Hell, I'll be generous and leave the GUNBUSTER at home, that thing would sweep the stars clear of Invid in seconds.

So, cruiser analouges. Screw CLAAs, let's go for something with some bite. Something with some power, in the single kilometer size range. I'll go with Covenant Destroyers from Halo, since their plasma torpedoes are going to make short work of the carriers, and the secondary pulse laser grid they have will also bucher anything trying to get close in swarms. Sound reasonable?

[DrStrangelove]

As far I know, it's not the Zentradi who repaired their own ships, it was the Tirolians (Khyron makes a big deal of learning the ability as much as his counterpart Kamjin did). Who at the time still had the needed shipyards (it would be the Invids to destroy them, once they realized there were little Zentradi left), even if degrading in performance due to protoculture shortage. About the indication of the Tirolians repairing the ships, it's a comparison between Kamjin and Khyron to give it: when Kamjin's monitor Bakrorella (the name sounded like this) 'accidentally' destroyed the Macross' radar he asked if they still had the old cripple, in his version Khyron asked if they had yet REPAIRED the crippled (apparently not, if he managed to avoid Breetai's wrath).

Lisa and rick still noted how decrepit Breetai's ship was and remarked something along the lines that it hadnt been repaired in awhile

As far I know, heavy converging beam cannons use hyperspace energy. Where do they get it from? Kinda recall the Macross not being able to fire its heavy converging beam cannon because without the fold device they couldn't link it to the REACTION ENGINE...

I was refering to the engines not the guns. And logically unsound, by your logic SSBNs have fusion reactors because they are armed with fusion weapons

The only thing we know about Robotech's firepower is that Khyron's task force gave us the same show of force that Kamjin's did, destroying the very same asteroid with the same number of vessels. True, Dolza's Rain of Death was less damaging than Bodolza's, but that can be attributed to Bodolza having superior numbers (background sources number his fleet as 4,795,122 ships, minus around a thousand ships that deserted and joined Earth's defense, against around four millions for Dolza's fleet) and Dolza's ships suffering from protoculture shortage a lot more than Bodolza's from scarce maintenance.

Episode 26 notes Dolza's fleet has "nearly 5 million warships" not enough difference to explain the OoM difference in effect. NY and Denver were relatively unscathed in RT, Denver existing nearly intact in the 2040's. Also the stated blast radius of the barrier overload is less in RT. And in Macross destroids can carry reaction weapons, as they were loaded with them for the attack on Bodolza's mobile base

Ignoring DYRL as in-universe is a bad history movie that gave Macross' Valkyries the Strike-configuration FAST packs that would be introduced after the war, the discrepance can be explained by Macross being launched in the original on february 7th and starting the travel from Pluto on the 19th or the 20th (we have an exact date for the launch and know that Macross was starting the travel back when Minmay and Ichijo were recovered after missing for 12 days) and being launched later in the same month and starting the travel back in march in the RT version (the official site's timeline give us february as launch date and march as the start of the travel from Pluto). The different relative positions of Earth, Mars, Saturn and Pluto (the celestial bodies touched by the ship in the voyage home) would force a different route and different ways for the Zentradi to ambush the Macross on Mars.

The visuals of DYRL are canon in the main timeline. The ships other than the motherships were ships of the local fleet and Earth is as it appeared in 2031 in the main timeline. And I didnt specify which timeline for Macross, the DYRL timeline would have an even easier time with the invid, excepting frontier era Macross. Your no math mentality is showing, perhaps you should prove why 1 month of additional orbital rotation expains the 25-50% discrepancy in transit time, its not like the outer planets orbit the sun in a year.

Again a simplistic assessment. Without evidence you have asserted invid will be able to ram Macross ships to death, no such act was observed in RT(not that it matters background fluff indicates even SW1 equipment was superior to its RT counterpart), and written sources have given all VFs and post SW1 ships active stealth systems.

Uh... The Invids DID ram REF ships to death multiple times. They have been observed doing that with Garfish-class light cruisers and Ikazuchi-class battlecruisers, first incident of both in the very first episode they appeared.[/quote] All fine and dandy, yet has nothing to do with the durability of Macross ships. May as well say they can wipe out an Imperial Fleet of ISDs.

And about the stealth system, if it was on fighters since the beginning then how is that veteran pilot Isamu Alva Dyson is surprised by the YF-21 prototype having it?

The joys of retcons, why wouldnt any other VF not have it if a VF-0 did?

And for the ships... The stealth system of UN Spacy ships is quite good against radars, but Invid scouts have OPTICAL CAMERAS. You know, the eye-like thing on the mecha... And as they have enough brain to look around, with their numbers and a very approximate position given by the trajectory of the missiles, lasers and railgun slugs of the first shot at least ONE of them is bound to see where the ships are, with his brain indicating the targets to the rest of the squadron, the other brains and the autonomous Invids.

Yes I'm sure they will see a whole lot 280,000km away when they open fire. Note during Macross Frontier when Battle 25 fired on a swarm of Vajra with its main gun when the reaction missiles stopped working it was far beyond visual range. And you still havent quantified how much damage ramming does. I'll help you out you can pick a mass I timed the ramming of the Ikazuchi's bridge in TSC and it takes 6 seconds for a scout to travel from the bow to the bridge. Woks out to a velocity of less than 100 m/s roughly 360 km/h hardly impressive. And I doubt there were millions of invid onscreen during the battle in TSC.

Then the ramming start. On the other hand, active stealth fighters are to small and fast for that to work until they've already shot down a squadron, and the Invids would still had quite the problem at firing at their general position.

For shits and giggles lets assume a scout masses 5 tons. .5*5000*100^2= 25MJ ~ 6 kilotons of KE per 1 million invid....maybe now you can see where this is going. A scout couldnt mass 5 tons unless it was a solid hunk of metal and the demonstrated velocity is less than 100m/s. The entire swarm of invid would be lucky to bring down more than 1 capital ship from Macross or B5

I did not compare the synchro cannons to heavy converging beam cannons (or Macross Cannons). The Macross Cannon is comparable to the reflex cannon in firing an high-gigaton beam but needing hours to recharge (recharge time inferred from statements from the captain of the Battle 7: after firing the weapon, he needed hours to get the energy to power the fold drive and inferred he would still need some time to fire the weapon again).

So you are comparing it to a beam cannon? I've calced Zentraedi guns to be kilotons per shot from Burst point and Love drifts away(3-400 kilotons from the DYRL game). They carry more than one, are mounted in turrets and have a higher rate of fire. And I'd like to see your quote for M7. In the episode where they fire on Gigile's fleet they charged and fired the main gun to 80% after 450 seconds, after executing a fold, ie less than 10 minutes to a fully charged shot, potentially faster if you dont fold. The 1 shot per hour from the written material likely refers to charging off the gunships independant reactor, not the Battle class ship's reactor

The synchro cannon is, in fact, a better weapon for a pitched battle, as its inferior firepower (demonstrated power of the ship-mounted version sufficient to obliterate an Invid carrier but not remotely comparable to a reflex cannon) is offset by a recharge time measurable in SECONDS.

I'd still rather have a gigaton weapon that fires once every 10 minutes and wipes out numerous enemies at once, or many similar weapons mounted in turrets possessing a higher rate of fire

And in Robotech the two weapons are stated to be for completely different uses: the reflex cannon is an orbital bombardament weapon, the synchro cannon is a one-shot-one-kill anti-ship weapon for pitched battles.

Which is pretty relevant to nothing. In Macross they use them for both.

I recall those incidents, and that RT Macross did the same on a particularly foolish Zentradi horde of battlepods and fighters while aiming at their mothership. The fact is that there are millions of Invids, that could overwhelm the point defenses (in the space part of the battle of Reflex Point we didn't even saw the total of Invid forces, they were still taking off as general Reinhardt ordered to deploy the Neutron-S missiles), even if paying a steep price.

Which accomplishes nothing. Going by written sources and my impossibly upper limit calc it will take many millions of invid ramming a single ship to overwhelm its armor and barriers. (with a possible exception for Northampton class frigates and Guantanamo class carriers which typically appear to almost spontaneously explode)

The fact is that Invids are USED at being targeted with weapons that can wipe them out en masse, and the very first thing they do on leaving their carriers is disperding exactly to prevent being wiped out by a single nuke with a proximity fuse or a timer. That's why fighters are necessary, to hunt them down and prevent them from mounting attacks on the cruisers.

In RT perhaps, doesnt apply to franchises that tank nuke yield weapons. You need millions of invid for low kilotons of KE.

I think around a thousand, that in the end would start to pass as interceptors overheat. And if they do the obvious thing and ram the same weak point, as they did in both space battles they were shown fighting on screen (Invids tend to ram the weapon turret of Garfish vessels and aim for the hangars and the bridge of Ikazuchi battlecruisers), they may cripple the vessel and take their time to destroy it later once there is no resistance left.

I helped you out since you appear allergic to math. Over 3 million scouts to equate the damage required to destroy a single Omega class destroyer.

[lord Martiya]

Since I'm back-let's pick out the next segment of my fleet. Since I've picked the Exelion, I've got a Carrier/battleship, that has armed it's mecha with Californium warheads. And it fights at multi-AU ranges. Hell, I'll be generous and leave the GUNBUSTER at home, that thing would sweep the stars clear of Invid in seconds.

So, cruiser analouges. Screw CLAAs, let's go for something with some bite. Something with some power, in the single kilometer size range. I'll go with Covenant Destroyers from Halo, since their plasma torpedoes are going to make short work of the carriers, and the secondary pulse laser grid they have will also bucher anything trying to get close in swarms. Sound reasonable?

We're trying to retake Earth. You sure you won't accidentally devastate Earth with the stray shots?

Lisa and rick still noted how decrepit Breetai's ship was and remarked something along the lines that it hadnt been repaired in awhile

It had been away from friendly ports for ten years, without access to automated or Tirolian-manned shipyards.

I was refering to the engines not the guns. And logically unsound, by your logic SSBNs have fusion reactors because they are armed with fusion weapons

Little difference: the heavy converging beam cannons is a beam weapon, the fusion weapons of a SSBN are MISSILES whose warheads are hydrogen-boosted fission warheads... Wait, aren't SSBNs powered by a nuclear reactor using a fission reaction?

Episode 26 notes Dolza's fleet has "nearly 5 million warships"

Of which a million had been earlier detached and placed at Breetai's orders, and were part of Earth's defense force. Whoops!

not enough difference to explain the OoM difference in effect. NY and Denver were relatively unscathed in RT, Denver existing nearly intact in the 2040's.

One, RT Nupetiet Vergnitz-bis battleships have no reflex cannon, so there were less weapons firing at Earth. Two, by that point the Zentradi were REALLY suffering of protoculture depletion, and their monitors had less energy to spare.

Also the stated blast radius of the barrier overload is less in RT.

According to the Robotech official site the complete destruction area was 25 miles. According to the Super Dimensional Fortress Macross episode I just checked the complete destruction area was over 25 km. Going conservative and assuming it were statute miles, the area devastated in Robotech was over 40 km. If those were NAUTICAL miles, then the devastated area was over 46 km.

And in Macross destroids can carry reaction weapons, as they were loaded with them for the attack on Bodolza's mobile base

And RT destroids could only carry little nukes. Wonder how Tirolian-derived nukes compares to early reaction weapons, but we don't know.

The visuals of DYRL are canon in the main timeline. The ships other than the motherships were ships of the local fleet and Earth is as it appeared in 2031 in the main timeline.

By Studio Nue statement, they partly used historical footage. By Studio Nue statement the energy cannon that differentiates the Strike configuration from the Super configuration was not introduced until AFTER the war.

And I didnt specify which timeline for Macross, the DYRL timeline would have an even easier time with the invid, excepting frontier era Macross.

Of course, THAT Earth had a couple millions Zentradi ships left and a lesser number of Meltrandi. Assuming for a moment that DYRL is not a movie even in-universe, the Invids would have tried to attack Earth while being outnumbered, outgunned and suffering from protoculture depletion. I think the Regis would have asked for asylum...

Your no math mentality is showing, perhaps you should prove why 1 month of additional orbital rotation expains the 25-50% discrepancy in transit time, its not like the outer planets orbit the sun in a year.

Uh... Mars and Earth orbits the sun a little faster than Saturn, who orbits faster than Pluto. That's what explains the discrepancy.

All fine and dandy, yet has nothing to do with the durability of Macross ships. May as well say they can wipe out an Imperial Fleet of ISDs.

Not really. Macross and Robotech ships demonstrated pretty much identical durability, the only difference being that RT ships don't mount pinpoint barriers that would absorb at least part of the assaulting Invids. On the other hand, an ISD has an HULL that could withstand multiple attacks from the Macrosss Cannon at full power and stronger shields. I think that if the Invids caught an unshielded ISD the captain would ask what's all the booming before ordering to evaquate the bridge in case the Invids kamikaze manage to crack its window open and ordering the AA batteries to try and prevent such an occurrence (transparisteel costs).

The joys of retcons, why wouldnt any other VF not have it if a VF-0 did?

Crap... Just verified, and you're right. I'll have to assume that Dyson's VF-11's radar was able to track earlier stealth device systems and he was caught by surprise by the YF-21 superior stealth device and to concede the point as we have canon evidence the Invids can't pierce a similar system with radars (the shadow system, that could or could not be as effective as the UN Spacy active stealth technology, was pierced by more powerful than expected protoculture detectors at short ranges). So, assuming an Alpha has similar performance to the similarly aged Star Mirage, I think the Invids are STILL screwed as soon as UN Spacy introduces the Harun-wait, an Alpha can't reach orbit without a Beta boosting it, a Star Mirage can. Well, that explain the noise I'm hearing, it were the Invids being screwed by the Star Mirages.

Yes I'm sure they will see a whole lot 280,000km away when they open fire. Note during Macross Frontier when Battle 25 fired on a swarm of Vajra with its main gun when the reaction missiles stopped working it was far beyond visual range.

The Invids can see the direction from where the laser beams come from and track the firing ships' approximate position, and see them when they're in the area. But I did say that, didn't I?

And you still havent quantified how much damage ramming does. I'll help you out you can pick a mass I timed the ramming of the Ikazuchi's bridge in TSC and it takes 6 seconds for a scout to travel from the bow to the bridge. Woks out to a velocity of less than 100 m/s roughly 360 km/h hardly impressive.

I saw the scene. The Invid changed direction to avoid the bow before resuming acceleration and ramming the bridge. According to the Robotech official site, a standard scout masses 4.5 t, with weapon packs masses 5 t. Now give me what it takes to break those windows, then measure me the speed it had the scout ramming a Garfish turret in episode 61.

And I doubt there were millions of invid onscreen during the battle in TSC.

They were still deploying. What the REF was still fighting when they deployed the Neutron-S missiles was the first wave and maybe the second wave from North American and Central American hives (hives in the rest of the world would take more time), and, in spite of the insufficient point defense, had destroyed most of them.

For shits and giggles lets assume a scout masses 5 tons. .5*5000*100^2= 25MJ ~ 6 kilotons of KE per 1 million invid....maybe now you can see where this is going. A scout couldnt mass 5 tons unless it was a solid hunk of metal and the demonstrated velocity is less than 100m/s. The entire swarm of invid would be lucky to bring down more than 1 capital ship from Macross or B5

Not really. You simply told me how much it takes to destroy whatever they use for their bridge windows.

So you are comparing it to a beam cannon? I've calced Zentraedi guns to be kilotons per shot from Burst point and Love drifts away(3-400 kilotons from the DYRL game). They carry more than one, are mounted in turrets and have a higher rate of fire. And I'd like to see your quote for M7. In the episode where they fire on Gigile's fleet they charged and fired the main gun to 80% after 450 seconds, after executing a fold, ie less than 10 minutes to a fully charged shot, potentially faster if you dont fold. The 1 shot per hour from the written material likely refers to charging off the gunships independant reactor, not the Battle class ship's reactor

It was from an episode, Max's statement to his enraged wife, about the time for folding out. I'll search for the episode in my DVDs now.

I'd still rather have a gigaton weapon that fires once every 10 minutes and wipes out numerous enemies at once, or many similar weapons mounted in turrets possessing a higher rate of fire

I'll favor the turrets too in most occasions: there seems to be some kind of constraint at turretting the synchro cannons.

Which is pretty relevant to nothing. In Macross they use them for both.

What if the enemy fleet is defending a target you don't want to burninate? Like a valuable shipyard it's blockading or has captured and won't try and self-destruct it, your homeworld...

Which accomplishes nothing. Going by written sources and my impossibly upper limit calc it will take many millions of invid ramming a single ship to overwhelm its armor and barriers. (with a possible exception for Northampton class frigates and Guantanamo class carriers which typically appear to almost spontaneously explode)

Again, you gave me what you need to overwhelm their windows and calculated it from a scout that had slowed down because it had originally misaimed.

In RT perhaps, doesnt apply to franchises that tank nuke yield weapons. You need millions of invid for low kilotons of KE.

Again, the windows are not the hull.

I helped you out since you appear allergic to math. Over 3 million scouts to equate the damage required to destroy a single Omega class destroyer.

Really? Do they make the hulls with transparent aluminum?

[Vehrec]

Actually, I think the Covenant Destroyers are much better for this than you give them credit for. After all, they can slip-jump into a planet's atmosphere, and then rain troops and fire support onto any hive I desire. Any nuclear level impacts will be relatively minor price to pay to get those damn bugs away from Holy Terra. By destroying the carriers in their mustering zones, I cripple the Invid's ability to get to the fight, effectively shattering their supposed superiority of numbers.

[lord Martiya]

If you can nuke the hives before they can launch the carriers, you automatically annihilate the vast majority of the Invids AND their ability to replenish their numbers, and you'll just need to mop up the patrols that were out and a few hives you couldn't destroy because they were in a mountain (confirmed the existance of one such hive. Had no carrier, though) or into populated cities (assuming you won't try and exterminate fellow humans, you'll want to spare those cities with an hive inside. New York's hive was too little for a carrier, and maybe even for protoculture production, but they have troops insides cities of unarmed civilians). But maybe you may spare Reflex Point at first: the Regis is more concerned about survival of her race and, after such an opening attack, is probable she'll surrender and plea for mercy. And the Invids can easily produce the fuel a majority of Earth technology now uses (and have experience in fighting the Haydonites that gave you the Neutron-S missiles and will attack you in a week or less, but you don't know that).

[DrStrangelove]

It had been away from friendly ports for ten years, without access to automated or Tirolian-manned shipyards.

Source? Keep in mind since Yune took over there has been a slew of retcons. Everything not in the series, TSC or the PtTSC comics has been rendered essentially noncanon

Little difference: the heavy converging beam cannons is a beam weapon, the fusion weapons of a SSBN are MISSILES whose warheads are hydrogen-boosted fission warheads... Wait, aren't SSBNs powered by a nuclear reactor using a fission reaction?

Semantics aside, evidence reaction engines draw energy from the super dimension

Of which a million had been earlier detached and placed at Breetai's orders, and were part of Earth's defense force. Whoops!

Do you know what an order of magnitude is. 1/5th is not even a single order of magnitude. Try again. Provide actual evidence why I should accept your unsupported assertion that the difference between RT and Macross is as negligible as you claim

One, RT Nupetiet Vergnitz-bis battleships have no reflex cannon, so there were less weapons firing at Earth. Two, by that point the Zentradi were REALLY suffering of protoculture depletion, and their monitors had less energy to spare.

And you can prove that that makes several orders of magnitude difference? Lets see some numbers proving it. The Macross bombardment was at least an order of magnitude greater than the K-T impact(near total loss of life not in the deep ocean, space, or 6km underground) The RT bombardment resulted in widescale destruction equivalent to a large scale nuclear war with cities and civilization surviving unaided. Gigatons versus a petaton, a difference of 4-5 orders of magnitude

According to the Robotech official site the complete destruction area was 25 miles. According to the Super Dimensional Fortress Macross episode I just checked the complete destruction area was over 25 km. Going conservative and assuming it were statute miles, the area devastated in Robotech was over 40 km. If those were NAUTICAL miles, then the devastated area was over 46 km.

Odd, my subs say 50km for macross which is ~ 31 miles. And you need proof for nautical miles. Only ignoramuses go around saying miles when they mean nautical miles.

And RT destroids could only carry little nukes. Wonder how Tirolian-derived nukes compares to early reaction weapons, but we don't know.

Evidence, the scene in macross is one of those ones that has different dialog in RT. In addition it is backed up by the written sources for macross.

Uh... Mars and Earth orbits the sun a little faster than Saturn, who orbits faster than Pluto. That's what explains the discrepancy.

Lets see some math that proves it. You dont seem to realize that the vast majority of the trip is composed of the vast distances between the outer planets, which change little in a month. A month also only represents only 1/12th Earths orbital path and 1/24th of Mars' 8% and 4% respectively. Hardly enough to explain 25-50% difference in the Macross timelines.

Not really. Macross and Robotech ships demonstrated pretty much identical durability, the only difference being that RT ships don't mount pinpoint barriers that would absorb at least part of the assaulting Invids.

You dont seem to comprehend that the weapons may look the same in SDF Macross and the Macross saga portion of RT, but their performance is quite different, as shown by the written Macross sources such as the Macross Chronicle.
So once again provided evidence for your claims

On the other hand, an ISD has an HULL that could withstand multiple attacks from the Macrosss Cannon at full power and stronger shields. I think that if the Invids caught an unshielded ISD the captain would ask what's all the booming before ordering to evaquate the bridge in case the Invids kamikaze manage to crack its window open and ordering the AA batteries to try and prevent such an occurrence (transparisteel costs).

Entirely irrelevant to the thread. Evidence of ships in SDF Macross blowing up from ramming by Invid. Macross barrier systems have been shown to tank gigaton hits from macross cannons. SDF Macross is not the same as RT:TMS. You really need to provide evidence that they perform the same.

. So, assuming an Alpha has similar performance to the similarly aged Star Mirage, I think the Invids are STILL screwed as soon as UN Spacy introduces the Harun-wait, an Alpha can't reach orbit without a Beta boosting it, a Star Mirage can. Well, that explain the noise I'm hearing, it were the Invids being screwed by the Star Mirages.

There is no need to assume, the stats show a different picture. Speed of Alpha @10km 2050km/h ~ M1.94 for the fastest version. Speed of VF-5000B @ 10km M2.85. Speed at 30km 3250km/h ~M3.08 versus M4.73+. No comparison, lets use a VF-1 at the same altitudes, M2.71 and M3.87 again the Alpha comes up short. VF-0 for shits and giggles M2.74 at 11Km. Alpha is better at 30km due to the VF-0 having jet engines and a service ceiling of 25km.
Alpha
VF-5000
The only area Alphas are superior is in internal missiles in a clean condition.

The Invids can see the direction from where the laser beams come from and track the firing ships' approximate position, and see them when they're in the area. But I did say that, didn't I?

And it will take how long for the Invid to reach the Macross ships firing from 280,000km away

I saw the scene. The Invid changed direction to avoid the bow before resuming acceleration and ramming the bridge. According to the Robotech official site, a standard scout masses 4.5 t, with weapon packs masses 5 t. Now give me what it takes to break those windows, then measure me the speed it had the scout ramming a Garfish turret in episode 61.

You misunderstand burden of proof. You need to prove that scouts are able to achieve sufficient velocity to effect ships able to shrug off nuclear yield weapons. And reviewing ep 61 there is no ramming of a garfish. The only garfish seen being destroyed was attacked by several scouts with claws. Same for ep 85 and TSC. Other than claw swipes the only ships seen rammed in the series are Horizants, Ikazuchis in TSC. Everything else appears to explode spontaneously

They were still deploying. What the REF was still fighting when they deployed the Neutron-S missiles was the first wave and maybe the second wave from North American and Central American hives (hives in the rest of the world would take more time), and, in spite of the insufficient point defense, had destroyed most of them.

Still not evidence of millions. Ep 85, Sera states to the Regis they(the Invid) are out numbered.

Not really. You simply told me how much it takes to destroy whatever they use for their bridge windows.

Which is more evidence than you have provided to anyone in this entire thread. If you dont like it prove with evidence they can do better.

It was from an episode, Max's statement to his enraged wife, about the time for folding out. I'll search for the episode in my DVDs now.

OK

What if the enemy fleet is defending a target you don't want to burninate? Like a valuable shipyard it's blockading or has captured and won't try and self-destruct it, your homeworld...

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and these posts are becoming entirely too long.

Again, you gave me what you need to overwhelm their windows and calculated it from a scout that had slowed down because it had originally misaimed.

Which is more than you have provided the entire thread. Prove they can do better, and prove they slowed down.

Again, the windows are not the hull.

Which presumably destroyed the ship. And again you have not provided evidence for anything. Provide evidence, concede, or be reported.

Really? Do they make the hulls with transparent aluminum?

Umm, Omegas dont have windows

[Norade]

I bid a Culture-verse Limited Systems Vehicle as the big ship, five Rapid Offensive Units, and forty Limited Offensive Units. They should have this cleaned up in short order without widespread devastation. That is if they decide to interfere at all.

[lord Martiya]

We already had someone deploy the Culture tech. Any other idea?

Source? Keep in mind since Yune took over there has been a slew of retcons. Everything not in the series, TSC or the PtTSC comics has been rendered essentially noncanon

Forced to concede by the source being Machek's novels.

Semantics aside, evidence reaction engines draw energy from the super dimension

The fact BG fluff describes the heavy converging beam cannon firing super dimenion energy and Macross' chief engineer complaining they couldn't charge the cannon without connecting it to the main engine.

Do you know what an order of magnitude is. 1/5th is not even a single order of magnitude. Try again. Provide actual evidence why I should accept your unsupported assertion that the difference between RT and Macross is as negligible as you claim

I was just debunking your numbers for bombing ships. The rest was attacked by another part. Later in this post.

And you can prove that that makes several orders of magnitude difference? Lets see some numbers proving it. The Macross bombardment was at least an order of magnitude greater than the K-T impact(near total loss of life not in the deep ocean, space, or 6km underground) The RT bombardment resulted in widescale destruction equivalent to a large scale nuclear war with cities and civilization surviving unaided. Gigatons versus a petaton, a difference of 4-5 orders of magnitude

Verified, and I have to concede.

Odd, my subs say 50km for macross which is ~ 31 miles. And you need proof for nautical miles. Only ignoramuses go around saying miles when they mean nautical miles.

I was considering an upper limit, given that here in Italy the nautical mile is the ONLY mile. About the discrepacy, I used the DVD of the Italian edition of Super Dimensional Fortess Macross. Given I also caught an error in the Italian version where they refer to the reaction weapons as REFLEX weapons, the odds are they did another error. I have to concede.

Evidence, the scene in macross is one of those ones that has different dialog in RT. In addition it is backed up by the written sources for macross.

Again, forced to concede by Machek getting booted out of canon. And you didn't need written sources for Macross, just the Destroid Monster mkI from Macross Zero firing them on screen.

Lets see some math that proves it. You dont seem to realize that the vast majority of the trip is composed of the vast distances between the outer planets, which change little in a month. A month also only represents only 1/12th Earths orbital path and 1/24th of Mars' 8% and 4% respectively. Hardly enough to explain 25-50% difference in the Macross timelines.

OK, I'll admit: I suck in maths, and can't provide calcs. Conceding.

You dont seem to comprehend that the weapons may look the same in SDF Macross and the Macross saga portion of RT, but their performance is quite different, as shown by the written Macross sources such as the Macross Chronicle.
So once again provided evidence for your claims

My evidence was Khyron's asteroid. Evidence destroyed by the fact he could have just fired a little more and the 5 miles difference of devastation radius in Ontario you evidenced.

Entirely irrelevant to the thread. Evidence of ships in SDF Macross blowing up from ramming by Invid.

That on the ISD was making a joke of the polemics on the Invids destroying an ISD fleet.

Macross barrier systems have been shown to tank gigaton hits from macross cannons. SDF Macross is not the same as RT:TMS. You really need to provide evidence that they perform the same.

That you already destroyed. Don't need to answer, but I prefer doing so.

There is no need to assume, the stats show a different picture.

Just venting on the Invids without verifying the stats. I don't need them to make a joke and conjuring myself a nightmarish image.

And it will take how long for the Invid to reach the Macross ships firing from 280,000km away

That's what the carriers are fo-Just realized on that distance the carriers would take too many losses for continuing an efficient assault on the second wave, and using the hives would defeat the principle of using the carriers in the first place. Either way, they're screwed. Conceding. Hope I'll sleep tonight...

You misunderstand burden of proof. You need to prove that scouts are able to achieve sufficient velocity to effect ships able to shrug off nuclear yield weapons. And reviewing ep 61 there is no ramming of a garfish. The only garfish seen being destroyed was attacked by several scouts with claws. Same for ep 85 and TSC. Other than claw swipes the only ships seen rammed in the series are Horizants, Ikazuchis in TSC. Everything else appears to explode spontaneously

Rechecked, and conceded.

Still not evidence of millions. Ep 85, Sera states to the Regis they(the Invid) are out numbered.

Checked, conceded, and wondering how was REF losing against the Invids if they were outnumbering them. Either she was speaking of the ground battle (and I'll have to wonder how it happened), REF Skulls aren't worthy of the Jolly Roger or Sera was crazy. Think the first but can't prove it.

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and these posts are becoming entirely too long.

It's our scenario: they didn't want to devastate Earth.

and prove they slowed down.

Look the damn scene.

Which presumably destroyed the ship. And again you have not provided evidence for anything.

Can't explain, so I have to concede.

Umm, Omegas dont have windows

I know. Being sarcastic before you killed my main evidences.