Doctor Who S32e5 "Rebel Flesh" [Spoilers]

[Broomstick]

No, he just stole someone else's body. Someone who wasn't even a Time Lord.

Apparently, the shoes will be the only way to tell the two Doctors apart, provided Doctorganger doesn't get all melty (Doctor Goo?). On another forum one of the posters got all up in arms at the notion that Doctorganger might replace the Doctor, claiming it would be a cheap, dirty trick and the audience would never accept it and it would ruin the show.

Yet the fanbase will accept a totally different body and altered personality as the Doctor over a perfect replica? That's interesting. Of course, I'm assuming they did lose some of the audience way back in 1966 when the first regeneration happened, it's just that it's not remembered. Those that could accept the change stayed, obviously.

Which is not to say I'd want to see either Doctor tossed into a vat of acid, crushed by rocks, tasered to death, shot, or whatever. It would be interesting to have two Doctors for awhile, I just don't see it as practical to continue that indefinitely.

[Revy]

On another forum one of the posters got all up in arms at the notion that Doctorganger might replace the Doctor, claiming it would be a cheap, dirty trick and the audience would never accept it and it would ruin the show.

Waa? But ... it's a tv show. It's the same actor playing his own clone. If they used 10.5 as an excuse to have David Tennant back in the show for a while, I wouldn't mind, even though he's a hand clone metathingy. It's sci-fi. So what?

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if they did replace the Doctor with his ganger. They did that in Stargate Atlantis with Carson, and it didn't bother me at all. I was just glad to see the actor back in the show, 'cause I liked him. If it really bothers people that much, they could just leave it ambiguous as to which Doctor dies and which one survives, like they kinda did in Ghost in the Shell with Pazu. Then you'd have fans going crazy trying to work out if the Doctor left standing is the original or the duplicate.

Which is not to say I'd want to see either Doctor tossed into a vat of acid, crushed by rocks, tasered to death, shot, or whatever. It would be interesting to have two Doctors for awhile, I just don't see it as practical to continue that indefinitely.

I actually said in another Who thread that I'd love to see two Doctors for a while, though I was thinking one would be played by a different regeneration/actor. Either way, time travel, clones, whatever, I like it when a story has two versions of the same person. It was great fun in Timesplitters when they did that. So yeah, I would quite like it if the ganger Doctor survived even for a while ... not likely to happen though.

Having said that, they have been saying everything is going to change and there will be a huge cliffhanger. Maybe this will be one case where status quo is not god.

[Broomstick]

On another forum one of the posters got all up in arms at the notion that Doctorganger might replace the Doctor, claiming it would be a cheap, dirty trick and the audience would never accept it and it would ruin the show.

Waa? But ... it's a tv show. It's the same actor playing his own clone. If they used 10.5 as an excuse to have David Tennant back in the show for a while, I wouldn't mind, even though he's a hand clone metathingy. It's sci-fi. So what?

Personally, that's much how I feel - I'd love to have Tennant back as 10.5 (which would solve issues involved with bringing back 10.0). I have no problems with 11A and 11B (or however two of Eleven* would be styled). It's crazy (to me) that someone who would accept eleven different bodies/actors/personalities as all the same person would balk at the Doctorganger. He said he wanted the original Doctor from Gallifrey and only him - but that guy disappeared in 1966!

It doesn't even have to be Sci-Fi for fans to accept it - on Bewitched they simply replaced the guy who played Darrin without saying a damn thing and the show went on with no problem. (Actually, this was done with two other characters on Bewitched as well, and it's hardly the only non-SciFi show to do this).

Just a bizarre viewpoint, really, from where I stand. Of course, whenever the Doctor regenerates someone screams "NOOOOOO! The new guy suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks! You ruined the show!" The rest of us just shrug and hope for good writing, or at least entertaining writing. Really, that's the key, how the writing handles it.


* Is it just me, or does that sound like a Borg name?

[Broomstick]

Oh, and just to clarify and nitpick (because what else do I have to do until Saturday?) Doctorganger is not a clone. He's a duplicate, an exact duplicate. A clone is no more and no less an identical twin, and as any identical twin can tell you, he/she is not his/her twin. They are two individual people, two different people, even if their genes are the same. Doctorganger doesn't just look like the Doctor, he is the Doctor mentally, emotionally, and in memory. In other words, more of a copy than an identical twin would be.

Though, as they are now two different people, and their experiences will be diverging, I would expect they would start to differ from each other over time.

It's really an intriguing idea about identity and what makes a person that particular person. It's the idea that's holding my attention, really, more than any detail of this episode. Of course, that's what makes speculative fiction/science fiction so interesting, it makes you think about stuff.

I was reading something somewhere (too easy to get lost on the internet) about the Doctor's various duplicates over the years, often referred to as clones when, really, they aren't. Jenny, for example, may not be a clone - she may be the result of splitting the Doctor's genome to get haploid cells and recombining the results, which is haploidisation, not cloning. It means that while Jenny could have no genes that weren't also in the Doctor, the Doctor could have genes she does not. In other words, they might well have different genomes. It would still make her the Doctor's daughter, but he would be not her father, exactly, but both parents.

Or, if she's just haploid that might be viable (there are a few, very rare cases of either partial or full haploid humans. They're sterile and have other problems, though)

Or, if Time Lord sex is determined by some system other than what mammals use with their XY chromosomes she could be a true clone - here on Earth birds use different chromosomes to differentiate the sexes but the other way around from us (females are ZW and males ZZ). Some vertebrates use temperature to determine sex, so, for example, some turtle eggs incubated at one temperature will produce one sex but those same eggs incubated at another temperature will produce the other sex. As Time Lords aren't human who knows?

Then there are fish that change sex during their lifetime as a perfectly normal event.

That's just terrestrial vertebrates - get into the non-verbrates things get even more crazy. On just this planet. Og knows how creatures on an entire different world might evolve. Given that it's now considered canon that Time Lords can regenerate into a different gender they might well have something other than chromosome types determining their plumbing, in which case Jenny and the Doctor could have identical genes even if they have different genders.

Then we have 10.5, a.k.a. "Handy". He's not a physical clone, being half Human or whatever with significant physical differences from the Doctor, yet mentally he seems to be a copy of memory, thought, personality, etc. to a much greater degree than a new regeneration would be. So what do you call that?

And now we have the Doctorganger - who seems to be on one level an complete physical and mental copy, a closer phyiscal copy, in fact, than an identical twin would be, certainly a closer physical copy than a regeneration, and a mental copy as well. Yet some people find that more disturbing than a physical clone. Well, maybe it's that most of us have met identical twins at some point, they don't seem as odd. Yet Doctorganger (apparently, based on previews) can still go all melty. Well, that's different.... is that something gangers remain prone to, or do they at some point completely solidify into a set form? How far down does the resemblance go? The cellular level? Genes? But wait - they can still get melty? Do they have the same fingerprints? A few unanswered questions there. If Doctorganger retains melting tendencies that could be... weird. It would make him visibly alien in a way that hasn't been seen before, even if it only crops up occasionally.

But, again - people seem to have accepted Time Lords with "re-written" biology to make them human with the chameleon arch... isn't that just as much a leap as a ganger?

Yeah, I wasn't that impressed with the story as written but the ideas are sure kicking around my head....

Then there is the problem of Amy and Rory (not to mention everyone else) accepting Doctorganger as the Doctor. The Doctor seemed to have little trouble with accepting PlasticRory as Rory (well, after proving he wasn't just a superficial copy but mentally one as well). I would expect Rory could accept Doctorganger just as easily if not more so, given his memories of being PlasticRory. Amy though... she is afraid of the gangers. She doesn't have that empathy. It could be really tough for her.

Which sort of mimics the audience, I suspect. There are those of us who would go "Doctorganger? Sure, why not, let's see where they go with that." and others who go "Noooooo!"

It's clear, though, that Time Lords don't have a problem with this. After all, they all regenerate/change bodies if they live long enough. And they never questioned that the Master was the Master even when he showed up in a stolen Traken body, meaning physically he was no longer a Time Lord but no one questioned that he was, indeed, the Master. For Time Lords physical appearance is not that strong a part of identity. For that matter, the audience never seemed to question that the Master was still the Master, though him stealing the body occurred on screen at the end of "The Keeper of Traken".

[mr friendly guy]

No, he just stole someone else's body. Someone who wasn't even a Time Lord.

Apparently, the shoes will be the only way to tell the two Doctors apart, provided Doctorganger doesn't get all melty (Doctor Goo?). On another forum one of the posters got all up in arms at the notion that Doctorganger might replace the Doctor, claiming it would be a cheap, dirty trick and the audience would never accept it and it would ruin the show.

Reminds me of the shit storm from Spiderman's clone saga.

Anyway, I wonder if the Doctorganger is the Doctor that gets killed at the start of episode one. Thats a trick Slider fans argued when professor Arturo was killed off. There was a previous episode where he fought his cliche evil equivalent from a parallel world and only one of them managed to slide out. Viewers assumed it was our Arturo, however apparently people including my sister subscribe to the hypothesis that it was the alternate Arturo and he was the one who ended up being killed in a latter episode.

I would so hate it if he turned up to be the cliche evil twin.

[NecronLord]

They could run two doctors and start growing a TARDIS for the Doctorganger (which notionally takes thousands of years, but if it's a process that can be left to its own devices, they could jump forward in the original TARDIS) when they decide to get rid of him. Kinda like Trek's two Rikers.

It's interesting, but hardly surprising that people revolt at this idea. A lot of people are very attached to identity as 'the original.'

[The Guid]

I'm amazed at all of the anti- Rory rhetoric. Sure people might just not like him but people seem to be unimpressed by his characters exploits. I mean... what does the man have to do? Jump in front of a bullet? Oh wait... he did that, only it was an energy blast. Shoot a dalek? Did that! Stab a cyberman? Did that! Devote himself for a a dozen or more centuries? Oops. nailed it! Have basically the most non plussed reaction to being inside the TARDIS ever? Again... he's got it.

If I had even half of those things on my resume I would consider myself a fucking badass. So what do you want from him?

If you just don't like him, fine, there's no accounting for taste. But I'm going to be calling Internet Tough Guy on anyone who says he doesn't have balls the size of Saturn.

[Broomstick]

Rory is awesome, but he's low-key awesome. He's the ideal husband/dad and not a swashbuckling single guy. He doesn't swagger, he doesn't brag, and he isn't even that enthused to find trouble. In other words, he's a hero but he's not a stereotypical hero, so it throws people off kilter.

Seriously, though - a leaping tackle to disarm a woman who just killed someone? That, to me, ranks among the top Bad Ass Moves in Who. How can anyone consider him a nebbish after that? (Never mind 2,000 years of loyalty, or any of the other Bad Ass Rory things he's done).

[The Romulan Republic]

Funny thing is, while he's not "a stereotypical hero", he's still more a conventional hero in some sense than the Doctor or Amy, in that he's the guy who physically kicks ass when the situation requires it.

That he's more low-key and level headed is a plus in my book, though. We already have two nutty, adventure-crazed eccentrics with Amy and the Doctor.

[Hillary]

Funny thing is, while he's not "a stereotypical hero", he's still more a conventional hero in some sense than the Doctor or Amy, in that he's the guy who physically kicks ass when the situation requires it.

That he's more low-key and level headed is a plus in my book, though. We already have two nutty, adventure-crazed eccentrics with Amy and the Doctor.

Totally agree. What I like about Rory is that when he does something reckless, it is to help those in danger, not because he's the "badass of the world taking down the bad guys".

Broomstick and Revy - please no more Tennant. Please! His character had degraded into parody well before that bloody Timelords double-header. His selfish refusal to go against his "I won't kill anything" mantra caused more harm than good. In any case, he was RTD's Doctor - there's no way Moffat would want him back.

[Revy]

I didn't mean to say they should bring him back, I just meant that if they did use 10.5 I wouldn't have a problem with the character just because he's some kind of meta duplicate thing and not the real deal. I don't really care that much if a character - any character - is a clone, or duplicate, or time double or whatever.

And yeah, so far Moffat's been doing a good job of keeping his run seperate from RTD's stuff. Aside from River, who was introduced in a Moffat episode anyway, none of the previous characters have shown up or even been mentioned that much. No Rose, Martha, Donna or Jack. I have to say I actually like it that way. I'm liking Moffat's run quite a lot.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I agree with the above sentiment; Rory isn't a hero, but he does solve problems and fix things very well.

[Gurachn]

I agree with the above sentiment; Rory isn't a hero, but he does solve problems and fix things very well.

I hear what you are all saying on the Rory issue, and honestly I can't disagree the character fills an interesting niche. I like the idea of the quiet anti-hero type, who can rise to the occasion in surprising moments and pull off uncharacteristically heroic acts for the right reasons.

That being said though, I still find that Rory rubs me the wrong way.
Try as I might to appreciate the character, I just think that Arthur Darvill's portrayal of the character misses the mark.
It seems to me that he nails the whiny and ineffectual part, but just doesn't have what it takes to make the heroic bits believable for me.
I've seen a few interviews with the actor, and he didn't make a particularly good impression in real life either. There is a bit in the last Confidential, where they are filming in a cold castle and the power goes off, taking his heater with it. He basically flips out and starts moaning and complaining, while Karen and Matt look on as though they are used to such behavior from him.

I think with a different actor the Rory could be excellent, but as it stands now, I just don't find the character appealing or (at least for the heroic bits) convincing.
Just my opinion, and enough said on the subject from me!

[NecronLord]

Broomstick and Revy - please no more Tennant. Please! His character had degraded into parody well before that bloody Timelords double-header. His selfish refusal to go against his "I won't kill anything" mantra caused more harm than good. In any case, he was RTD's Doctor - there's no way Moffat would want him back.

It's all writing. The tenth Doctor in dross like Journey's End or The End of Time is light-years from what he was in say, Human Nature (admittedly a story originally written for seven) or Waters of Mars.

He was superlative in a number of episodes, and no doubt a good writer could make a cool fresh meeting, if they wished to.

[Darth Nostril]

Not necessarily. I believe the Time Lords offered the Master another regeneration before in The Five Doctors; the limitation seeming to be artificial in nature and not something that necessarily always has to just stop. And there's the throwaway line in that episode of The Sarah Jane Adventures.

Even if it's an artificial limit, the Master at least, couldn't remove it.

The Time Lords offered the Master a complete new set of regenerations in return for fighting in the Time War, which he did up until the Dalek Emperor siezed the Cruciform at which point he legged it.
Who's to say they didn't extend that offer to all the other renegade Time Lords, like the Doctor? If that is the case then he's got another thirteen regenerations left.
Or, given the comment in the Sarah Jane Adventures, the limit was removed for the 'good' renegades who fought.

[Big Orange]

Broomstick and Revy - please no more Tennant. Please! His character had degraded into parody well before that bloody Timelords double-header. His selfish refusal to go against his "I won't kill anything" mantra caused more harm than good. In any case, he was RTD's Doctor - there's no way Moffat would want him back.

It's all writing. The tenth Doctor in dross like Journey's End or The End of Time is light-years from what he was in say, Human Nature (admittedly a story originally written for seven) or Waters of Mars.

He was superlative in a number of episodes, and no doubt a good writer could make a cool fresh meeting, if they wished to.

And besides the 10.5 Hand Doctor had no qualms at all about blowing up Davros' Mini-Dalek Empire anyway, but I agree that the actual 10th Doctor pleading Davros to enter the TARDIS was a real eye rolling moment. Overall I don't think the 10th Doctor was a bad as the Batman from DC Comics in letting mass murderers live to lasting catastrophic results; look what he did to the Racnoss Empress and her brood, he was going ahead to blowing up the Sontarans' flagship at the cost of his life, he was willing to sacrifice a town full of innocent people for the greater good and to kill the Pyroviles. But he gave warnings, unlike the 11th Doctor.

I would think an adventure involving Tennant as the 10.5 Hand Doctor would have tension, since despite having a similar personality and a lot of the memories/experience that the 11th Doctor has, and even his own TARDIS, when he dies, he dies.

The Master being re-introduced into the time looped Time War is going to lead to potentially good future Time Lord stories when the Time Lords are inevitably coming back in the next two to five years (in the right hands of course).

I gave last week's episode a score of "3". It was a engaging enough 45 minutes that was slightly better than "The Curse of the Black Spot" - it had good visual/make up effects (the Almost People) that made up for cheesy ones (the sky), I liked the strange industrial setting at the castle and the fake 11th Doctor creeped me the fuck out, as did the premise of the Almost People (thick gloop that's completely convinced it's you, *shudder*).