Legend of Galactic Heroes vs. Honorverse

[Connor MacLeod]

Other implications:

If we assume each side spent an equal time decelerating from .28c to a near stop (which they had to do for the battle) each ship would have an average acceleration of something like 447 km/s^2. No way in hell that is possible unless they have mass lightening. (which I am loathe to give them)

Going by "my" dubs, and assuming they opened fire at 20 LS, each ship took ~1,880 seconds to cross ~43 LS, for an average velocity of 2.3% of c, or ~6900 km/s. I'd guess that to come to a complete stop in that time would take an acceleration somewhere in the 3-4 km/s^2 range, or a "mere" hundreds of gravities. Which actually fits better with what I've guessed at before, and is not nearly as insane.

By the way they also mentioned a 12 day transit from Heinessen to Shiva, which I'd guess from the maps on the "old" wiki I found to be around maybe 3-5K LY (based on the 10K LY "trail of tears" type route) Which gives around 100,000-150,000c FTL velocity on average.

Also both fleets were relatively stationary, but those ships were bouncing around in different directions alot, that shoudl give some potential accelerations using manuvering jets or such (I'd guess they moved the ships by at least a few tens if of meters with every thrust, easily worth a few gees minimum.)

[Connor MacLeod]

The crew figures are, but the absolute numbers given by the FFC aren't

At this point in my analtyical career, "repeatability" is the name of the game. The more sources stating roughly the same numbers, the happier I am.

Well naturally, its a hand-drawn animation, if they pixel scaled all sorts of minor differences would appear. For example, the Grendel and Morholt look different when we see them in the Season 1 Gaiden (produced after the main series was over, but a prequel to the events of the pilot) - in that, they look how standard battleships looked in Season 3 and Season 4 of the main series. Obviously this is because the art style evolved and improved over the show's run. You can note a similar difference in the standard battleship Sindur between Season 2 and Season 3.

But in terms of their essential features - particularly in terms of number of visual weapons, there's never any change in the standard battleship. Basically, there's every reason to think these ships were always intended to be identical to the standard vessels.

Perhaps, but artist/authorial intent is always a difficult position to take, and few "suspension of disbelief" sorts I've ever associated with would willingly embrace that. (Hell I cringe at thinking of trying THAT logic out on Brian... he's a horribly straightforward WYSIWYG type.)

Ping uselessly against shields.



(interestingly, this is one of the very few times when LOGH beams don't appear to be travelling at least high fractions of c, since we can see them traverse from the edge of the frame to the ship).

Disappointingly so, I'm willing to bet the beam propogation would be definitely "fraction fraction of c" like tens or hundreds of km/s at best. I'd simply suggest that the shields have a volume effect (rather than being two dimensional, as the visuals seem to suggest) and the apparnetly slow velocity of the beam is. As far as the "shield glow" effect we see, perhaps there is some secondary function to shields that spreads out/dissipates the shot if it cannot completely slow it. *shrugs*

Otherwise you'd have to assume something like "the ships are moving backwards at some fractions of c and we're only seeing relative velocity".

Something to look into. My iPhone has an app called Word Lens but so far it only translates Spanish

There are online translation programs. If you can find an ebook version of the novels online you *probably* can translate it. Damned if I know where to look, though. (I'll bet that if its popular, and it probably is, it is or was online at some point, which means its floating on the internet somewhere..)

[Vympel]

At this point in my analtyical career, "repeatability" is the name of the game. The more sources stating roughly the same numbers, the happier I am.

Not unreasonable.

Perhaps, but artist/authorial intent is always a difficult position to take, and few "suspension of disbelief" sorts I've ever associated with would willingly embrace that. (Hell I cringe at thinking of trying THAT logic out on Brian... he's a horribly straightforward WYSIWYG type.)

True, but remember there's no good reason to assume that standard battleships can't shoot the same number of beams, so far. Remember, in the overwhelming (by a bigggg margin) majority of battles, warships are only ever seen to fire their (extreme) forward armament.

EDIT: Though I'd say mods of existing weapon ports seem to exist. After all, that's the only explanation aside from "this is the pilot" that explains why the nacelle mounts fired beams forward in the pilot and photon torpedoes in the main series.

Disappointingly so, I'm willing to bet the beam propogation would be definitely "fraction fraction of c" like tens or hundreds of km/s at best. I'd simply suggest that the shields have a volume effect (rather than being two dimensional, as the visuals seem to suggest) and the apparnetly slow velocity of the beam is. As far as the "shield glow" effect we see, perhaps there is some secondary function to shields that spreads out/dissipates the shot if it cannot completely slow it. *shrugs*

Otherwise you'd have to assume something like "the ships are moving backwards at some fractions of c and we're only seeing relative velocity".

Yeah. Heck, in the very same sequence, when the Lutz fleet returns fire (at 6 million km), the beams instantly propagate in the frame amongst the opposing fleet, like the overwhelming majority of other times in the series (this is especially so when you consider just how long it would take those beams to arrive if they were travelling that slowly).

[takemeout_totheblack]

Several problems:

1.) It doesn't neccesarily indicate FTL sensors. Alot of that depends on what sorts of sensors are picking them up and what they are picking up. It oculd just be passive emissions and that need not be FTL. ACtive sensors? Then it might be.

I'm pretty sure the displays in that episode show the Yang Fleet taking positions inside the Iserlohn Corridor in real time IIRC.

2.) The combat speed has to account for whether or not both fleets are closing, or just one side is. It looked like the Imperial fleet was moving as well, in which case it would be a "combined closing speed" involving both ships. It could be that one side, or the other, was travelling at different speeds (one moving faster than the other, I'd guess the Imperial fleet was moving sloweR) \

This is a battle taking place in one of the starzones just outside the Iserlohn Corridor, so the Yang Fleet is relatively static, holding position just outside the Corridor opening in order to lure the Imperial Fleet in the Thor Hammer's range. This means the Imperial Forces were the only ones advancing.

It's quite possible that the time is off as well. The (crappy) sub I have says 1,880 seconds. Which, to be honest, fits with my conceptions of LOGH's capabilities thus far. There's several implications for acceleration and such in that episode, and I somehow doubt they decelerated to a complete stop in a couple of minutes. (And we have to allow for scene cuts in that whole battle no matter how you fudge it due to weapons fire, the speech, etc. , so no point in saying 1,880 seconds is too long.) 1,880 seconds would be "only 2-3% of c average for both fleets, but that's still damn fast by starship standards.

I'd be tempted to agree with you were this not the Central Anime dub, whose track record for accuracy is (as far as I know) one of the best.

I'd figure its maybe the range for serious penetration (red usually means danger/warning) and range affects the odds of penetration. How close that means.. *shrugs* Less than 20 light seconds I'd say.

You're right, in the battle just before a Yang Fleet bridge bunny states that the Imperials are leaving their red-zone and entering their yellow zone. So red zone probably means 20 light seconds or less.

I'd note if we DID take everything quite literally in that scene (EG the battle starting right oafter Reinhard's speech, which took no more than a minute), then the fleets would have engaged each other at a range in excess of 80 light seconds, which would in turn mean (among other things) that beam weapon firepower ramped up considerably since the "20 LS" range Vympel mentioned.

I think they mentioned being outside Thor Hammer range as well, if that affects matters at all.

The issue of timescale has already been debated, most of the battles we see are time-lapsed to spare the audience the several minute long scenes where everyone just sort of stands around tensely until they close to weapons range.

Also, if the Thor Hammer is indeed a different weapon to whatever they strap to their ships, there's certainly the possibility that its range is shorter than ship based weaponry at the expense of being OoM more powerful*. Makes sense, the area of the Corridor in which the Fortress lies is narrow enough for the Thor Hammer to effectively defend it, and superior enemy weapon range doesn't amount to a hill of beans when nothing can really hurt the damn thing.


*In fact, I believe Reuenthal's fleet (36,000 ships in total) laid into Iserlohn's armor with their beam cannons whilst keeping outside the Thor Hammer's range.

[Vympel]

The Thor Hammer's range is explicitly stated to not exceed 600,000km. Conventional ship beam weaponry is much longer ranged, but of course, has absolutely no effect on Iserlohn's (or Geiersberg's) shell.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm pretty sure the displays in that episode show the Yang Fleet taking positions inside the Iserlohn Corridor in real time IIRC.

But we don't know anything about the times or distances involved, so the time of detection for the civilina ships could simply represent the point at which the fleets emissions became detectable to them. That does not mean that it is FTL. Hell, given the weird stealth magic (and the fact civilian sensors are unlikely to be better than military in this regard.) the ranges could get quite close before fleets are picked up.

I also don't put much stock in the phrasing or context of them coming out of the Iserlohn corridor. It isn't intuitively obvious that they're deep within it, or just coming out from that direction. either is possible (and I checked both dubs I could find)

This is a battle taking place in one of the starzones just outside the Iserlohn Corridor, so the Yang Fleet is relatively static, holding position just outside the Corridor opening in order to lure the Imperial Fleet in the Thor Hammer's range. This means the Imperial Forces were the only ones advancing.

There's no indication how fast either side is moving, however. Saying they are "relatively static" is a bit meaningless in space (static relative to what?) and I saw no indication being more specific. So we can't really know for sure the separate approach velocities of either fleet, other than it was no less than half the combined speed, and that the Imperials are probably moving faster.

Besides if we HAVe to be stuck with the 188 second thing, then you WANT the velocities to be lower because it doesn't make a hash of the numbers quite as badly. There's also issues with things like time dilation, and suchnot, being more significant the closer to lightspeed ones gets. Although even then 85,000 km/s in 188 seconds leads to some fairly absurd accelerations, but this is far better than claiming that a battleship can accelerate as fast as an Impeller wedge missile on a freaking reaction drive.

I'd be tempted to agree with you were this not the Central Anime dub, whose track record for accuracy is (as far as I know) one of the best.

Except that they HAVE made errors in the numbers as Vympel noted. I'd not be surprised if it happened again here. (I'll note my crappy dubs had the 800,000 km thing right in ep 70.) Tht and the fact there's no proof of mass lightening (or the ability to pull hundreds of thousands of gees in other cases) leads me to believe the number is wrong.

Besides, its doubtful you could even pull nearly .6c on a fusion plant. For a 1 million ton starship the KE involved is nearly 2e25 J for the ship's own velocity. That doesn't even account for the energy expended in thrust (which will be CONSIDERABLY greater. I'd guess an order of magnitude so, since the exhaust velocity will need to be high even with stupidly large amounts of propellant.) You'd have to carry orders of magntidue more fuel (nevermind propellant, unless you can use fuel and propellant as the same thing) than the dry mass of the ship I estimated in order to move it, and my calc didn't factor that in (the power figures consequently go UP.)

And that *still* doesn't account for deceleration, or being able to fight after that battle, or anything like that. The high velocities simply create far too many headaches given what we know without invoking something like mass lightening (which I do *NOT* want to do, even if we assume its a Mass Effect type ML).

You're right, in the battle just before a Yang Fleet bridge bunny states that the Imperials are leaving their red-zone and entering their yellow zone. So red zone probably means 20 light seconds or less.

Wait. Yellow zone is closer range than Red Zone? That's counter-intuitive.

Also, if the Thor Hammer is indeed a different weapon to whatever they strap to their ships, there's certainly the possibility that its range is shorter than ship based weaponry at the expense of being OoM more powerful*. Makes sense, the area of the Corridor in which the Fortress lies is narrow enough for the Thor Hammer to effectively defend it, and superior enemy weapon range doesn't amount to a hill of beans when nothing can really hurt the damn thing.

It is without a doubt a much different weapon, both in generation and in how it interacts with the target. My guess is that for whatever reason it's the starship version of a flamethrower - large area of effect, short range, but very devastating. It's also not a laser, but it also seems to have some particle beam qualities to it. I'd guess that it's more like a focused-directed solar flare/CME or a giant shape-charge nuke (combination of hard radiation and charged particles/plasma.)

*In fact, I believe Reuenthal's fleet (36,000 ships in total) laid into Iserlohn's armor with their beam cannons whilst keeping outside the Thor Hammer's range.

The armor on the stations is increadibly bizarre to say the least. Since it subjectily seems to be behaving like a rathr thin liquid (resembling ocean water - we can actually SEE inside it, and I gather their sensors and other gear work inside it as well) and they could use their thrusters almost completely uimpeded inside of it.

figuring out what the fuck it is is going to be a whole sub-category of analysis.

[Connor MacLeod]

True, but remember there's no good reason to assume that standard battleships can't shoot the same number of beams, so far. Remember, in the overwhelming (by a bigggg margin) majority of battles, warships are only ever seen to fire their (extreme) forward armament.

Yep, but battles also typically encompass many thousands of ships (and including in all probability hundreds of battleships) only a fraction of which we never see. I mean we never see the destroyers or missiles firing, and we don't always see fighters. I wouldn't assume the fractions we see represent the whole battle, neccesarily.

As an aside, why is it that the wiki lists battlecruisers as being only slightly larger, but packing less firepower than a battleship (despite it mounting far more guns and being quite a BIT larger, if the numbers are right.) Also battlecruisers are tradtiionally faster than battleships.

I'd also retract my previous idea about gun number neccesarily indicating shorter range, FPA and Imperial ships seem to be able to engage at simialr ranges. If anything, that suggests the ships with more numerous guns probably have far more raw power (even for their size.) EG the command battleship has 50 forward guns compared to 8 for the normal (FPA) battleship, yet roughly the same range. Comparing ship volumes vs weapon numbers would be an interesting exercise. I suspect firepower calced indpeendently from power generation (derived from ship accel and mass) will form the bookends for power generation and firepower (EG lower and upper limits, respectively)

EDIT: Though I'd say mods of existing weapon ports seem to exist. After all, that's the only explanation aside from "this is the pilot" that explains why the nacelle mounts fired beams forward in the pilot and photon torpedoes in the main series.

I also mentioned that its possible that different mounts represent different kinds of weapons (laser vs particle beam) they may not always fire them at the same time (they certainly don't always fire all the forward mounts at once.) And if some have open/closed ports then they may not show up all the time if they aren't using them.

Yeah. Heck, in the very same sequence, when the Lutz fleet returns fire (at 6 million km), the beams instantly propagate in the frame amongst the opposing fleet, like the overwhelming majority of other times in the series (this is especially so when you consider just how long it would take those beams to arrive if they were travelling that slowly).

Yeah, but its just like the scene with the Artemis Necklace, there's enough hints of the propogation issue to make me wince. Hell, seeing the "pin point lights" of distant ships, especially when its the opposing fleet, makes me wince as it is (its long ranged, but it could be argued to be far less than multiple light seconds depending on what a person decides what those lights are.)

The Thor Hammer's range is explicitly stated to not exceed 600,000km. Conventional ship beam weaponry is much longer ranged, but of course, has absolutely no effect on Iserlohn's (or Geiersberg's) shell.

That's another thing. I decided to check Ep 70 of the crappy sub (they actually got the range right, although they said "800 thousands of kilometers", but what struck me is that a.) The FPA forces got so close before being detected which says something about either the sensor or the stealth capabilities in LOGH b.) neither the ship nor the station's weapons fired on the approaching fleet (nor did the FPA fleet engage).

Also, having seen Thor's Hammer fire.. I dont think its an X-ray laser. ITS something weird (The Death STar parallells are a bit obvious) but its not a laser. IT has (I think) some charged particle beam or electrical component to it. Also, it doesn't immediately obliterate any ships inside it, they actually seem to survive for a number of seconds. (on top of which, Thor's Hammer has a pretty long charge rate anyhow.. close to a minute by my guess, which affects the calcs somewhat.)

Also Also other things of notice. The Imperial fleet tries to get out of Thor's Hammer range. If a time limit can be placed on that (unless they got out of range just after it fired) then you could probably figure some OoM acceleration figure.

Also-cubed, I noticed they were using crossbows onboard as well as the axes. I vaguely recall something about "electronics or energy weapons not being effective on a ship" but, you'd think they'd have some other choices available (compressed gas weapons for example. There are historical models that can match a low powered pistol or musket in performance quite easily, ignoring the possibility of their magic forcefields)

Alsox4, one guy is hefting up and chucking quite accurately a rather large stone pillar, which (oddly) suggests either that LOGH humans are superhuman in some way or their armour has some sort of strength-enhancing properties.
Oh, and it looks like they have FTL comms. I believe the Imperial Admiral was getting (or thought he was getting) Coded messages from Reinhard [which suspiciously looks like SPACE TELEGRAPH (tm)] I'm pretty sure that would be an indicator of FTL comms onboard ship. (IT could be that only the large stations can allow for realtime visual. Just because its FTL doesn't mean its instantaneous)

lastly: I forgot to mention last nite, the intiial part of ep 107 we see a civilian transport, much larger than the rest judging by the FPA fleet that guards it. Interesting thing to note is that the battle lasted a whole two hours without either side being wiped out (or even, subjectively, seeming to take substantial losses, despite the fact many millions of shots must have been fired on both sides.)

I also marvel that the New Century was not hit even once despite being in the midst of a fleet battle of thousands of ships. It's also kind of interesting that they risked hundreds of thousands/millions of lives just for 900 civilians. Either they didn't anticipate taking very many casualties, or losses were totally irrelevant by that point.

[takemeout_totheblack]

But we don't know anything about the times or distances involved, so the time of detection for the civilina ships could simply represent the point at which the fleets emissions became detectable to them. That does not mean that it is FTL. Hell, given the weird stealth magic (and the fact civilian sensors are unlikely to be better than military in this regard.) the ranges could get quite close before fleets are picked up.

Actually I'm talking about Reinhard's approach, not the first Imperial approach. The first Imperial approach, yeah, no evidence of FTL sensors there, but Reinhard's approach was from a considerable distance and showed the Yang Fleet's defensive movements in real time. Military ships with stealth magic could still be detected at 30 million kilometers, and appeared to be in real time as the little graphics appeared to be moving.

I also don't put much stock in the phrasing or context of them coming out of the Iserlohn corridor. It isn't intuitively obvious that they're deep within it, or just coming out from that direction. either is possible (and I checked both dubs I could find)

Yes, except for the fact that the following battle is at several points directly referred to as being just outside or just inside the mouth of the corridor. So they're not quite within the corridor at any given time, but they're never very far from it either.

There's no indication how fast either side is moving, however. Saying they are "relatively static" is a bit meaningless in space (static relative to what?) and I saw no indication being more specific. So we can't really know for sure the separate approach velocities of either fleet, other than it was no less than half the combined speed, and that the Imperials are probably moving faster.

By 'relatively static' I mean that they are not moving forward to intercept the advancing fleet. Rather they are taking defensive positions, positions Reinhard directly comments on as being such, within the starzone and just outside the corridor entrance. Reinhard is approaching and they are waiting.

Except that they HAVE made errors in the numbers as Vympel noted. I'd not be surprised if it happened again here. (I'll note my crappy dubs had the 800,000 km thing right in ep 70.) Tht and the fact there's no proof of mass lightening (or the ability to pull hundreds of thousands of gees in other cases) leads me to believe the number is wrong.

True, I grant you that there's a definite margin for error. BTW what is you dub called?

Besides, its doubtful you could even pull nearly .6c on a fusion plant. For a 1 million ton starship the KE involved is nearly 2e25 J for the ship's own velocity. That doesn't even account for the energy expended in thrust (which will be CONSIDERABLY greater. I'd guess an order of magnitude so, since the exhaust velocity will need to be high even with stupidly large amounts of propellant.) You'd have to carry orders of magntidue more fuel (nevermind propellant, unless you can use fuel and propellant as the same thing) than the dry mass of the ship I estimated in order to move it, and my calc didn't factor that in (the power figures consequently go UP.)

And that *still* doesn't account for deceleration, or being able to fight after that battle, or anything like that. The high velocities simply create far too many headaches given what we know without invoking something like mass lightening (which I do *NOT* want to do, even if we assume its a Mass Effect type ML).

What's with the phobia against mass lightening? It's conceivable since Imperial ships frequently set down on planets and get back up into space, of course that could just be antigravity or other some such. But still, it seems to make sense that they have some kind of mass lightening schtick if we go back to those fucking ice-missiles again because, let's face it, bussard ram jets aren't going to get those thing moving at any perceivable percentage of light within, oh say, a century.

Now you say 'Why would they do that? Mass-lightening means less KE'
well, maybe they didn't need the KE so much as something to approach the Artemis Necklace without being destroyed. As you mentioned earlier those asteroids would have needed some sort of shielding system to withstand acceleration and weapons fire, maybe their size was so they could outfit them with shields durable enough to withstand the approaching fire?

I dunno, it just seems that mass lightening tech isn't such a far cry considering their other feats.

Wait. Yellow zone is closer range than Red Zone? That's counter-intuitive.

My fault, I wasn't clear. The bridge bunny was commenting on the how imperials were retreating into the Yellow Zone. The Yellow Zone is farther away.

Also this could be a simple graphic flub, but the yellow zone seems to be about as long as the red zone. Could this indicate 40-light second absolute range if we take the 20 LS range as their kill range against shielded vessels?

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually I'm talking about Reinhard's approach, not the first Imperial approach. The first Imperial approach, yeah, no evidence of FTL sensors there, but Reinhard's approach was from a considerable distance and showed the Yang Fleet's defensive movements in real time. Military ships with stealth magic could still be detected at 30 million kilometers, and appeared to be in real time as the little graphics appeared to be moving.

Look, rather than me just guessing which part of the episode you are talking about, you indicate the time frame I should be looking at here and then I'll debate it when I know what the heck I'm supposed to be talking about.

Yes, except for the fact that the following battle is at several points directly referred to as being just outside or just inside the mouth of the corridor. So they're not quite within the corridor at any given time, but they're never very far from it either.

That's still vague, nevermind the ambiguities in translation I've alluded too before. You can't read too much into dialogue in this sort of thing, its going to cause you problems. (CF "near-lightspeed" asteroids attacking the Artemis necklace.) We don't have enough numerical data and alot of this can be highly relative.

By 'relatively static' I mean that they are not moving forward to intercept the advancing fleet. Rather they are taking defensive positions, positions Reinhard directly comments on as being such, within the starzone and just outside the corridor entrance. Reinhard is approaching and they are waiting.

The point remainds that we still don't know. Unless we can be reasonably certain about it and have specific evidence to point to it (preferrably with a numbe ror somthing approaching a numbeR) you have to account for other possibilities. It's too easily nitpicked that way, nevermind possible contradictions later on.

True, I grant you that there's a definite margin for error. BTW what is you dub called?

Fuck if I know. It's not labeled. I don't think its Central Anime though. Vympel seems to knwo what I am talking about however.

What's with the phobia against mass lightening? It's conceivable since Imperial ships frequently set down on planets and get back up into space, of course that could just be antigravity or other some such. But still, it seems to make sense that they have some kind of mass lightening schtick if we go back to those fucking ice-missiles again because, let's face it, bussard ram jets aren't going to get those thing moving at any perceivable percentage of light within, oh say, a century.

1.) We have no evidence for it. 2.) It's one of the worst violations of science you can think of (where does the mass magically go? how come the ship doesn't become less dense/more opaque? Why don't they have perpetual motion machines, how come the crew are totally unaffected by operating in a mass-reduced enviroment, etc.)

The best handled example of mass lightening I have ever seen was the inertia suppression technology from Redemption Ark, but I don't think that literally reduced mass.

Now you say 'Why would they do that? Mass-lightening means less KE'
well, maybe they didn't need the KE so much as something to approach the Artemis Necklace without being destroyed. As you mentioned earlier those asteroids would have needed some sort of shielding system to withstand acceleration and weapons fire, maybe their size was so they could outfit them with shields durable enough to withstand the approaching fire?

I dunno, it just seems that mass lightening tech isn't such a far cry considering their other feats.

You do realize that for a given amount of force/momentum, as you reduce mass acceleration/velocity increases right? And KE rises alot faster when you increase velocity than when you increase mass. That's partly why mass lightening is considered a potential perpetual motion machine.

Nevermind that having that level of acceleration should change their entire combat style. It wouldn't be possible to accurately target someone at 6-20 light seconds because they could be anywhere within thousands of km in radius by the time weapons fire reached you.

Not to mention the potential problems with impacts/recoil that it creates (you're mass is effectively reduced, that means incoming fire will exert considerably more force on you. Ships would be getting shoved around left and right. by weapons fire. Nevermind the potential for lethal crew accelerations.

My fault, I wasn't clear. The bridge bunny was commenting on the how imperials were retreating into the Yellow Zone. The Yellow Zone is farther away.

Also this could be a simple graphic flub, but the yellow zone seems to be about as long as the red zone. Could this indicate 40-light second absolute range if we take the 20 LS range as their kill range against shielded vessels?

No. Vympel noted that 20 LS was the maximum effective range that gunfire could stand a chance of penetrating shields. We dont know what sort of percentages that entails, so its possible that it might allow for longer ranges at a reduced hit percentage (Say 10% as opposed to 50%, to pull out two arbitrary numbers)

If we were to take the relative sizes of the two zones as literal, that would hint that "red" zone starts at somewhere around 10 LS or so.

[Connor MacLeod]

One other note: In ep107 they were also running some 10% of their fleet without crews, although it clearly l ooked like there was only a limited amount to what they could do (predictable enough that had Reinhard been in a normal state of mind he would have picked up on it.) They also mention the FPA side having manpower shortages (running a ship with as few as 50 crewers) This points out obviously that automation plays at least some significant role in ship operation, although it is clear that crew numbers do impact performance for various reasons (50 people I would guess is perhaps close to the limit - what we might consider a "skeleton" crew.)

Also we see battleships taking multiple hits from weapons fire, but only certain "kinds" of damage destroys them (one Imperial battleship took osmething like 3-4 broadside hits from fore FPA battleship guns, and only blew up after the last one.) So there is a bit more randomness than "one hit-one kill".

[Vympel]

Yep, but battles also typically encompass many thousands of ships (and including in all probability hundreds of battleships) only a fraction of which we never see. I mean we never see the destroyers or missiles firing, and we don't always see fighters. I wouldn't assume the fractions we see represent the whole battle, neccesarily.

Surely so, but what I'm getting at is that there's no evidence either way given what we see. There's no explicit reason to assume that other battleships can't fire the same amount of beams in the same general melee situation as the battle in that gas giant.

As an aside, why is it that the wiki lists battlecruisers as being only slightly larger, but packing less firepower than a battleship (despite it mounting far more guns and being quite a BIT larger, if the numbers are right.) Also battlecruisers are tradtiionally faster than battleships.

I'd also retract my previous idea about gun number neccesarily indicating shorter range, FPA and Imperial ships seem to be able to engage at simialr ranges. If anything, that suggests the ships with more numerous guns probably have far more raw power (even for their size.) EG the command battleship has 50 forward guns compared to 8 for the normal (FPA) battleship, yet roughly the same range. Comparing ship volumes vs weapon numbers would be an interesting exercise. I suspect firepower calced indpeendently from power generation (derived from ship accel and mass) will form the bookends for power generation and firepower (EG lower and upper limits, respectively)

There's AFAIK no such thing as battlecruisers in LOGH. There's an old entry in the FPA ship section purporting to be one (which is actually Attenborough's flagship late in the series) I haven't culled yet. Thanks for reminding me

(by contrast, the cruiser / battleship entires are accurate in terms of classification, but I've gotta get in there and expand them)

Have a look at the entries I've actually completed instead (for the FPA):-

(Spoilers abound, but given you're watching the episodes being referred to, Im sure that won't bother you)

http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Leonidas
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Leonidas_II
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Cu_Chulainn
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Airget_lamh
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Patoroklos
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Rio_Grande
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Hyperion
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Triglav
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Abai_Geser
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Maurya
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Ulysses (a standard Alliance battleship that's a fixture of the series)

Empire (I did these first, but I do need to expand some of the service histories, no bearing on stats though):-

http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Tristan
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Eistla
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Ulfrun
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Kvasir
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Beowulf
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Br%C3%BCnhild
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Asgrimm
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Garga_Falmul
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Forseti
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/K%C3%B6nigs_Tiger
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Salamander
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Perceval
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/N%C3%BCrnberg

Imperial standard battleships (which served as admiral's flagships):-

http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Theodoricus
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Sindur
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Watzmann
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Vigrissr
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Langenberg
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Morholt
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Grendel
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Heorot
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Heilenheim
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Heremoss

(note, where armament isnt listed, it means its not readily discernible in the hull, though its definitely there since we see the ships shooting)

In terms of the 'command battleship' entry, frankly given all flagships are unique to varying degrees, I'm wondering if it has any utility. I'll consider it further.

I also mentioned that its possible that different mounts represent different kinds of weapons (laser vs particle beam) they may not always fire them at the same time (they certainly don't always fire all the forward mounts at once.) And if some have open/closed ports then they may not show up all the time if they aren't using them.

Yup.

Yeah, but its just like the scene with the Artemis Necklace, there's enough hints of the propogation issue to make me wince. Hell, seeing the "pin point lights" of distant ships, especially when its the opposing fleet, makes me wince as it is (its long ranged, but it could be argued to be far less than multiple light seconds depending on what a person decides what those lights are.)

Well in terms of that epiosde, remember that just because you can see those lights on the bridge screen of Lutz' ship doesn't mean they're actually that far away from his ship (depending on what you think they are) - the screens have zoom capability, its seen several times. For example, on Alliance ships you might often see one part of the battle on the side display screens whilst the centre panel is a totally different image, zoomed in.

That's another thing. I decided to check Ep 70 of the crappy sub (they actually got the range right, although they said "800 thousands of kilometers", but what struck me is that a.) The FPA forces got so close before being detected which says something about either the sensor or the stealth capabilities in LOGH b.) neither the ship nor the station's weapons fired on the approaching fleet (nor did the FPA fleet engage).

Goes back to Yang's comments in Episode 27 about 'electric wave interception' technology and such, I'd imagine. Detection isn't always guaranteed - and the fleet in Ep 70 was very small.

Also-cubed, I noticed they were using crossbows onboard as well as the axes. I vaguely recall something about "electronics or energy weapons not being effective on a ship" but, you'd think they'd have some other choices available (compressed gas weapons for example. There are historical models that can match a low powered pistol or musket in performance quite easily, ignoring the possibility of their magic forcefields)

Yeah, its just silly why they'd rely on crossbows.

Alsox4, one guy is hefting up and chucking quite accurately a rather large stone pillar, which (oddly) suggests either that LOGH humans are superhuman in some way or their armour has some sort of strength-enhancing properties.

LOL, love that bit

Oh, and it looks like they have FTL comms. I believe the Imperial Admiral was getting (or thought he was getting) Coded messages from Reinhard [which suspiciously looks like SPACE TELEGRAPH (tm)] I'm pretty sure that would be an indicator of FTL comms onboard ship. (IT could be that only the large stations can allow for realtime visual. Just because its FTL doesn't mean its instantaneous)

We see real time visual between flagships in the series in different star systems as well.

lastly: I forgot to mention last nite, the intiial part of ep 107 we see a civilian transport, much larger than the rest judging by the FPA fleet that guards it. Interesting thing to note is that the battle lasted a whole two hours without either side being wiped out (or even, subjectively, seeming to take substantial losses, despite the fact many millions of shots must have been fired on both sides.)

That's nothing. Some battles last multiple days (the fleets will often seperate to reorganize themselves and then join battle again). It depends on how aggressively the two admirals are fighting. Most battles last only hours.

I also marvel that the New Century was not hit even once despite being in the midst of a fleet battle of thousands of ships. It's also kind of interesting that they risked hundreds of thousands/millions of lives just for 900 civilians. Either they didn't anticipate taking very many casualties, or losses were totally irrelevant by that point.

Yeah, IIRC Julian takes the opportunity presented by the incident to achieve a different objective.

Fuck if I know. It's not labeled. I don't think its Central Anime though. Vympel seems to knwo what I am talking about however.

I know of the fansub youre talking about, but I've never seen it myself. But yeah, there's no way its Central Anime. I imagine one of the reasons your fansub might be so urkh is that its translated from Chinese subtitles?

[Vympel]

The armor on the stations is increadibly bizarre to say the least. Since it subjectily seems to be behaving like a rathr thin liquid (resembling ocean water - we can actually SEE inside it, and I gather their sensors and other gear work inside it as well) and they could use their thrusters almost completely uimpeded inside of it.

Well, its called hydro-metal for a reason

But wait - when do we see inside it? As far as I can recall, its opaque, and is brilliant at reflecting.

[Vympel]

Also, re: arguments about whether a fansub is wrong or not on a certain point - do what I did and check for yourself. It isn't actually that hard. Type in the number in google translate, select the appropriate Japanese (i.e. the one with the number and kanji, not the number, or else you're going to hear a shitload of the Japanese for zero) and see if it matches the dialog. That's exactly how I knew that 80,000 was wrong and 800,000 was right.

Or I can check it, is it Episode 107?

[takemeout_totheblack]

Episode 107 around 9:19-9:30: both dubs have the distance at 106.4 light seconds/31,920,000 kilometers. Where they differ is the ETA into the enemy's Red Zone (definitely less than 20 light seconds). Connor's dub has it at 1,880 seconds or a little over 30 minutes, the Central anime dub has it at 188 seconds or a little over 3 minutes*.
The ramifications of this is the potential it has for establishing LoGH non-combat cruise speeds (.56c CA dub, .056c* Connor's dub).

What this seems to imply is that Reinhard's fleet decelerated from either .56c or .056c over the course of 3 to 30 minutes respectively, establishing LoGH accel/decell rates over time. Also, in the possibility of the former being true, the apparent existence of LoGH inertial damping/mass subtraction tech by necessity.

*this number, of course, is dependent on the unspecified but implied fixed position of the Yang Fleet during the engagement. As Yang Fleet is stated to be establishing defensive positions outside the corridor, relative fixed position can logically be assumed, although the contrary is also entirely possible.

[Vympel]

Ok, simple, I'll check it out by virtue of the QTS rip (i.e. original Japanese subtitles) and audio compared to google translate tonight. Can't do it now, at work.

[Vympel]

Just checked - its 1880 seconds, according to the native QTS rip Japanese subtitles, and my amateur ear.

[takemeout_totheblack]

That makes much more sense considering what Connor laid out.

[Vympel]

Oh, cool - there's a missile firepower incident in Gaiden Season 1, the Hundred Billion Stars arc, Episode 4. Its when the Grimmelhausen Fleet goes to planet in Van-Fleet to set up a base, and three battleships each fire a missile at the surface in preparation for setting the hydro-metal foundation down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axpAAtlpvEk#t=2m44s

Also Connor, you get another look at hydro-metal here (obviously).

EDIT: I think the nukes are used to melt the surface, and then they place hydro-metal on top.

DOUBLE EDIT: these are a different model of missile from the fusion missiles the Brunhild fires in MCISS (which were seen again fired in a swarm by the Kempf fleet in Episode 15)

[takemeout_totheblack]

The missiles used here seem to be a bit smaller than the missiles used by Reinhard and Kemf. Perhaps they are a short range assault type rather than the long range standoff type used by the Brunhilde* and Kemf?

*yes I know the Brunhilde used them at close range too, but it also seemed that Reinhard neededed a bigger bang for his cunning plan. Or maybe the Brunhilde isn't equipping with short-range missiles?

[Vympel]

I'm not sure how you would scale them in the circumstances. They might be bigger or smaller, IMO.

In any event, I brought the Ep. 107 issue to CA's attention - he agrees with the light seconds part, but re 1880 seconds Heibi2 will raise it with his Japanese friend when he gets to the episode so he can be sure. Its somewhat hard to hear IMO so the QTS subtitles saying 1880 as well seemed to clinch it for me, but we'll see.

[Connor MacLeod]

Surely so, but what I'm getting at is that there's no evidence either way given what we see. There's no explicit reason to assume that other battleships can't fire the same amount of beams in the same general melee situation as the battle in that gas giant.

"We don't know" is a common answer in sci fi analysis. Sometimes its even a blessing. In this case its a trivial concern given their capabilities. They can build a asteroid-sized engine in a matter of hours (Days) and make it sturcturally sturdy inside said block of ice, for crying out loud. I doubt modifying the number (or type) of guns they carry is more complicated.
Nevermind the "hydo-metal" stuff.

Well in terms of that epiosde, remember that just because you can see those lights on the bridge screen of Lutz' ship doesn't mean they're actually that far away from his ship (depending on what you think they are) - the screens have zoom capability, its seen several times. For example, on Alliance ships you might often see one part of the battle on the side display screens whilst the centre panel is a totally different image, zoomed in.

That's one option, but the thing is we don't always see them in the distance as pintpoints and there isn't always magnification. That's why I think it might be some sort of emissions much of the time. either it's visible (like when the engines fire) or the screens display it in a fashion discernable to the naked eye.

Goes back to Yang's comments in Episode 27 about 'electric wave interception' technology and such, I'd imagine. Detection isn't always guaranteed - and the fleet in Ep 70 was very small.

"Electric" (Which I assume they mean electromagnetic) wave interception could be jamming, or it could be some device that keeps them from radiating towards opposing ships (EG a form of stealth.)

Yeah, its just silly why they'd rely on crossbows.

Well its kinda silly they'd rely JUST on axes either. Spears would be useful (you don't need as much room to swing but can be just as lethal) or knives. Hell, knives would be quite useful as thrown weapons (or javelins) if you're gonna contrive that. But air or gas compressed weapons are another option (Range doesn't matter there either.) Hell depending on how their magic forcefield tech goes (They seem to have gravity at least) they probably could use force fields to propel projectiles (I know no beams or heat/explosions/electricity, it would set off the zephyr particles as I recall.)

LOL, love that bit

He's also hefting a good quarter ton of mass quite effortlessly, much less throwing it with any speed or accuracy. Contrast it with this guy for example, much less imagining throwing a 400 lb barbell. Or hell, the closest I can think of is the caber toss which we might see here.

Frankly I'm not sure they use genetic engineering in that way, so its probably powered armor. (Which evidently doesn't have any nasty side effects.)

We see real time visual between flagships in the series in different star systems as well.

That may be, but the "telegraph" approach seems more common. IT seems to also fit in with the general "theme/atmosphere" they go with in LOGH (Eg the melee combat.)

That's nothing. Some battles last multiple days (the fleets will often seperate to reorganize themselves and then join battle again). It depends on how aggressively the two admirals are fighting. Most battles last only hours.

Well, that's going to cause some real problems with fusion powerplants and hundred/thousand gee multimegaton starships. Mass lightening is starting to look more attractive all the time.

it also says something about the attirtion rate. Ships cant be THAT fragile against hits, unless thy're shields are really just that good. Alternately, its a consequence of ranges closing ovevr time, and more shots starting to penetrate.

Although if that were the case you'd think they'd go for fewer, bigger weapons, at least in some dedicated starships. Sort of a Homeworld Ion cannon frigat.e I believe they do have guns that big.

I know of the fansub youre talking about, but I've never seen it myself. But yeah, there's no way its Central Anime. I imagine one of the reasons your fansub might be so urkh is that its translated from Chinese subtitles?

That could be. The english titles are the second one, and the other (Chinese maybe?) are the first set.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, its called hydro-metal for a reason

But wait - when do we see inside it? As far as I can recall, its opaque, and is brilliant at reflecting.

They boarded Iserlohn (I think that was the station) and turned Thor's Hammer against the Imperial fleet. It sure looked like they were passing inside the hydrometal to reach at the base inside.

Oh, cool - there's a missile firepower incident in Gaiden Season 1, the Hundred Billion Stars arc, Episode 4. Its when the Grimmelhausen Fleet goes to planet in Van-Fleet to set up a base, and three battleships each fire a missile at the surface in preparation for setting the hydro-metal foundation down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axpAAtlpvEk#t=2m44s

Onscreen the fireball lasts only around ~8 seconds, which is single digit megatons. IT's not really easy to scale the fireball (We have no benchmarks) but you can see them from orbit (and it looks like you can see the curve of the planet as well) which implies they're pretty big (possibly bigger than single megatons, not sure) but that would require time lapse.

There's also the fact they are fired from the surface down towards the planet in a matter of seconds (hundreds, or thousands of kilometers maybe?)

Alternately, they're not really nukes. What they are, I dunno.

Also Connor, you get another look at hydro-metal here (obviously).

Is that the gray stuff growing out of the water? You mean it actually has water in it? I thought it was just some weird, mercury-like shit.

EDIT: I think the nukes are used to melt the surface, and then they place hydro-metal on top.

What makes you say that? Because the water is liquid?

DOUBLE EDIT: these are a different model of missile from the fusion missiles the Brunhild fires in MCISS (which were seen again fired in a swarm by the Kempf fleet in Episode 15)

haven't seen either.

I'm not sure how you would scale them in the circumstances. They might be bigger or smaller, IMO.

In any event, I brought the Ep. 107 issue to CA's attention - he agrees with the light seconds part, but re 1880 seconds Heibi2 will raise it with his Japanese friend when he gets to the episode so he can be sure. Its somewhat hard to hear IMO so the QTS subtitles saying 1880 as well seemed to clinch it for me, but we'll see.

It woudl be best if it is 1880 seconds. Or even if there is uncertainty, nudge towards the larger timeframe. Ludicrous accelerations are bad, especially if you want to avoid Star Wars yields and mass lightening. Hell, if they could accelerate that fast there's no reason why Thor's Hammer would be a hugely dangerous super-fleet killing weapon, ships could just dance hundreds (or thousands) of km aside before the damn thing fires (Since the ships are slowing down, these will be RETROS. Since they seem invisible that could mean that the rear thrusters are even more ludicrously powerful... yeah, that way lies a mess and madness.)

As it is the results I get when I try doing the math are anywhere from 700-1600 gees depending on the "effective firing range" you figure the two fleets begin at and how you divvy up the closing speed between the two fleets, and that's edging into "SW-like" territory in how ships operae, if not quite into yield territory yet (although you're edging up into the gigatons easily at that point.)

About the only way around that would be to assume that the engines and weapons run on separate powerplants (odd, but not impossible. The weapons reactors could be alot weaker. than the engines for various reasons.) although if there's any indication that weapons and engines are tied into the same powerplant, they divert power from other systems to engines, etc.. that can probably shoot down that idea.

The faster the acceleration gets, the more fuel needed for the fusion plants to provide the needed thrust. And that cuts down on operational endurance (7-10 hours currently, as opposd to a day or so I initially figured on.) And I don't think you can plausibly get away with claiming they have only a few hours operational combat endurance as a rule. Maybe you can fudge that with (variable outputs) and thye don't run out at max, but I'mnot sure how much you could fudge that.

[Connor MacLeod]

By the way I'm not seeing the FTL sensor thing still in ep 107.

[takemeout_totheblack]

What makes you say that? Because the water is liquid?

What are you questioning here? That they melted the ice period or that they placed the Hydrometal on the water because it's liquid? A possible explanation for the hydrometal on the water could be 1). to prevent it from freezing while the ships are resting in it and 2). provide stability for the ships resting in it.
Why are they resting their ships in it? I dunno, conserve fuel and try to stay out of sight? Also judging by the potential volume of the ships dispensing the hydrometal and the quickness with which it spread leads me to believe that the hydrometal laid down was just a thin sheet to stabilize the water more than anything.

haven't seen either.

Yeah, work on that. Everyone needs more LoGH!

About the only way around that would be to assume that the engines and weapons run on separate powerplants (odd, but not impossible. The weapons reactors could be alot weaker. than the engines for various reasons.) although if there's any indication that weapons and engines are tied into the same powerplant, they divert power from other systems to engines, etc.. that can probably shoot down that idea.

that's as good a theory as any. Looking at most LoGH ships, they appear to be one half engine, one third gun, and the rest goes to whatever else. It's not much of a stretch that weapons have their own power-plant so the main reactor can keep the ship moving/keep everyone alive.
I'm not sure, but I don't think there are any examples of the tried and true Sci-fi staple of 'divert power from X to Y' there's just 'shoot', and 'go that way', and 'shoot harder', and 'go that way faster'. Don't hold me to that though.

The faster the acceleration gets, the more fuel needed for the fusion plants to provide the needed thrust. And that cuts down on operational endurance (7-10 hours currently, as opposd to a day or so I initially figured on.) And I don't think you can plausibly get away with claiming they have only a few hours operational combat endurance as a rule. Maybe you can fudge that with (variable outputs) and thye don't run out at max, but I'mnot sure how much you could fudge that.

Walking into the mine field of 'denser fuel' isotopes could solve the fuel storage problem you bring up, but raises the mass problem in turn (stoopid physics).
There's always the slim possibility that their ships run on huge capacitors that use future magic to store absurd levels of energy for extended periods of time, (would explain why they a'splode so often too) Like a U-Boat, charge up the battery, go into battle, recharge, repeat. I don't have much to base this on other than the fact that they never seem to refer to onboard fuel supplies directly, just calling it 'energy' instead.

[Vympel]

They boarded Iserlohn (I think that was the station) and turned Thor's Hammer against the Imperial fleet. It sure looked like they were passing inside the hydrometal to reach at the base inside.

Oh yeah, hydrometal is permeable to ships, but AFAIK its opaque, not transparent. This is why we can never see through to Iserlohn's core, it just reflects the surrounding starfield.

Is that the gray stuff growing out of the water? You mean it actually has water in it? I thought it was just some weird, mercury-like shit.

I don't think it actually has water in it, I just think those ships are setting the hydro-metal down on top.

What makes you say that? Because the water is liquid?

Yeah - its just a guess of course.

It woudl be best if it is 1880 seconds. Or even if there is uncertainty, nudge towards the larger timeframe. Ludicrous accelerations are bad, especially if you want to avoid Star Wars yields and mass lightening. Hell, if they could accelerate that fast there's no reason why Thor's Hammer would be a hugely dangerous super-fleet killing weapon, ships could just dance hundreds (or thousands) of km aside before the damn thing fires (Since the ships are slowing down, these will be RETROS. Since they seem invisible that could mean that the rear thrusters are even more ludicrously powerful... yeah, that way lies a mess and madness.)

As it is the results I get when I try doing the math are anywhere from 700-1600 gees depending on the "effective firing range" you figure the two fleets begin at and how you divvy up the closing speed between the two fleets, and that's edging into "SW-like" territory in how ships operae, if not quite into yield territory yet (although you're edging up into the gigatons easily at that point.)

About the only way around that would be to assume that the engines and weapons run on separate powerplants (odd, but not impossible. The weapons reactors could be alot weaker. than the engines for various reasons.) although if there's any indication that weapons and engines are tied into the same powerplant, they divert power from other systems to engines, etc.. that can probably shoot down that idea.

The faster the acceleration gets, the more fuel needed for the fusion plants to provide the needed thrust. And that cuts down on operational endurance (7-10 hours currently, as opposd to a day or so I initially figured on.) And I don't think you can plausibly get away with claiming they have only a few hours operational combat endurance as a rule. Maybe you can fudge that with (variable outputs) and thye don't run out at max, but I'mnot sure how much you could fudge that.

Weapons may not be tied to the power plants, depending on how you interpret the consistent quotes in the show that ships are running out / have run out of "energy and missiles" (i.e. clearly in the context of ammunition).

Why are they resting their ships in it? I dunno, conserve fuel and try to stay out of sight? Also judging by the potential volume of the ships dispensing the hydrometal and the quickness with which it spread leads me to believe that the hydrometal laid down was just a thin sheet to stabilize the water more than anything.

One idea I had was that, since we know hydro-metal is great at absorbing explosives, setting down a hydro-metal foundation means that any artillery / missiles etc that land in the base perimeter will fail to do any great harm. Oh, and beam shots will bounce off too.