LiveScience.com wrote: Seismologists Tried for Manslaughter for Not Predicting Earthquake
Jeanna Bryner, LiveScience Managing Editor,
LiveScience.com Jeanna Bryner, Livescience Managing Editor,
livescience.com – Thu May 26, 5:55 pm ET
Earthquake prediction can be a grave, and faulty science, and in the case of Italian seismologists who are being tried for the manslaughter of the people who died in the 2009 L'Aquila quake, it can have legal consequences.
The group of seven, including six seismologists and a government official, reportedly didn't alert the public ahead of time of the risk of the L'Aquila earthquake, which occurred on April 6 of that year, killing around 300 people, according to the U.S. Geological Survey.
But most scientists would agree it's not their fault they couldn't predict the wrath of Mother Nature.
"We're not able to predict earthquakes very well at all," John Vidale, a Washington State seismologist and professor at the University of Washington, told LiveScience.
Even though advances have been made, the day scientists are able to forecast earthquakes is still "far away," Dimitar Ouzounov, a professor of earth sciences at Chapman University in California, said this month regarding the prediction of the March 11 earthquake in Japan.
L'Aquila faults
The decision to try the six members of a committee tasked with determining the risk of an earthquake in the area (along with a government official) was announced on Wednesday (May 25) by Judge Giuseppe Romano, according to a news article from the American Association for the Advancement of Science.
Some people said the committee should've seen it coming, because of the earthquake swarms that occurred days before the big one struck, Vidale said.
"We get swarms of earthquakes all the time without a big earthquake. There was nothing strange about this swarm to suggest a big earthquake," Vidale said in a telephone interview. [Album: This Millennium's Destructive Earthquakes]
Regarding the charges against the Italian seismologists, Vidale said "we're offended" that they are being charged with a crime "for telling the truth." That truth is, he added, there was nothing to say that the level of danger was enough to warrant any public action.
Why we can't see one coming
Talking with Vidale, one gets the impression that predicting an earthquake would take a miracle, as there are so many unknowns.
"One problem is we don't know how much stress it takes to break a fault," Vidale said. "Second we still don't know how much stress is down there. All we can do is measure how the ground is deforming." Not knowing either of these factors makes it pretty tough to figure out when stresses will get to the point of a rupture, and an earth-shaking quake, he explained.
To get measurements of the actual stresses, researchers have to drill miles beneath the surface — an engineering feat on its own — and would only be able to drill a couple places to put sensors along the fault. (Drilling has been done along the San Andreas fault, but no one has measured the stress at depth there, Vidale said.)
On top of all that, the L'Aquila region is a particularly complex nut to crack geologically. While mostly horizontal strike-slip faults, like the San Andreas, are much clearer faults to analyze, the L'Aquila fault system is complex, with several so-called "normal" faults moving mostly vertically.
And several tectonic processes are active in the region: The Adria micro-plate is being subducted under the Apennines from east to west, while at the same time continental collision is occurring between the Eurasia and Africa plates (responsible for the building of the Alps).
Digging into the past
With all the downers, earthquake prediction science, it seems, is coming back into fashion after a lull in the 80s when methods weren't showing any success, Vidale said. The key is to find some strange phenomenon that occurs before, days before, an earthquake, that seismologists can recognize.
While they haven't found any silver bullet, scientists are digging up data on past earthquakes along fault systems to give them an idea of the probability another will occur. Even so, probability of an earthquake coming "doesn't help with predictions a day before an earthquake," Vidale said.
Another method involves detecting evidence of unusual amounts of radon gas in the atmosphere. Right before an earthquake, the fault may release more gases, including radon. In fact, Ouzounov and colleagues found such anomalous signatures in the atmosphere above Japan days before the March 11 quake struck.
No one has ever predicted an earthquake from atmospheric data, and plenty of supposed earthquake precursors, from weird animal behavior to groundwater flowing the wrong way, have proven hit-or-miss.
Of the radon gas method, Vidale said, "now we're pretty confident that's not reliable."
Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital
Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
For not being omniscient
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
Really? REALLY!?
Hint Italy: GEOLOGISTS CANNOT FORECAST EARTHQUAKES LIKE METEOROLOGISTS CAN THE WEATHER. Get it through your heads.
Hint Italy: GEOLOGISTS CANNOT FORECAST EARTHQUAKES LIKE METEOROLOGISTS CAN THE WEATHER. Get it through your heads.
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
Preventative maintenance: Try to keep the commentary above the level of simply expressing outrage. We all know it's stupid; try to discuss why. If the only thing you can say is that you agree that it's dumb, understand that we don't need a room full of nodding heads.
Note: I'm semi-retired from the board, so if you need something, please be patient.
Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
I wonder if the Italian justice department (or whatever its called) understands the precedent this will create. It will drive scientists out of the country.
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
I suspect this one won't go far in court. Earthquake prediction is famously impractical, and unless someone can point to a consistent track record of earthquake prediction that the seismologists deliberately gave up on for this one quake, there's no way to prove anything resembling criminal intent or negligence.
The prosecutor is being foolish, but I doubt his foolishness represents state policy.
The prosecutor is being foolish, but I doubt his foolishness represents state policy.
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
Sorry, it took me a while to wrap my head around the stupidity. Then again, Italy has been sane for two periods in its history, during the of rule Caesar Augustus, and during the rule of the four "good" emperors. I suppose Florence was sane during the rule of the early Medici'sLagmonster wrote:Preventative maintenance: Try to keep the commentary above the level of simply expressing outrage. We all know it's stupid; try to discuss why. If the only thing you can say is that you agree that it's dumb, understand that we don't need a room full of nodding heads.
But I think the precedent set here is even more dangerous than scientists fleeing for their lives. This sets a precedent for any city planner, analyst, or any person who's purview is the reduction or study of any sort of risk for which variables are unknown or occurrence is stochastic that they may be arrested. The epidemiologist who fails to predict a flu epidemic? Jailed. The guy who times the traffic lights to maximize flow rate and minimize the risk of accidents? Jailed. Police who dont spot a murderer as he walks down the street to his victim's house? Jailed.
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
Here is an article from the time of the quake explaining the difficulty of prediction and also going into the controversy of Giampaolo Giuliani who issued a warning before the quake but was gagged by authorities.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/opini ... aitaly2009
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/opini ... aitaly2009
The public would like scientists to predict earthquakes. We can’t do that. We might never be able to do that. What people and government can do is work to make sure our houses, schools and hospitals don’t fall down when the next big one strikes, and that we’re all prepared for the difficult aftermaths. We can look around our homes and our workplace and think about what would happen to them if the terra firma suddenly ceased being firm. We can stop worrying about predicting the unpredictable, and start doing more to prepare for the inevitable.
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
All geologists can do is issue 'alerts' and 'warnings' which cover a time-period of weeks or months. Barring a glaring signal (like a volcanic eruption) there's simply no way of precisely locating where or when a fault will rupture. Such tiny, imperceptible variables can move the epicenter dozens of miles and push the time of the break up or down by days.
If they'd issued a warning but been off, would they still be culpable? Could they really define an acceptable % error for predicting quakes during which time they WOULDN'T be prosecuted? If this passes, you'll find Italian seismologists start predicting serious quakes on a weekly basis in all parts of the country just to cover their asses.
If they'd issued a warning but been off, would they still be culpable? Could they really define an acceptable % error for predicting quakes during which time they WOULDN'T be prosecuted? If this passes, you'll find Italian seismologists start predicting serious quakes on a weekly basis in all parts of the country just to cover their asses.
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
I can't believe it'll pass, or pass appeals- it's got "frivolous lawsuit" written all over it.
Can a prosecutor in Italy do something like that? I mean, accepting that they might torpedo their career by charging someone with something bluntly stupid, do they have the kind of latitude it takes to pull something like this? Could one person, or a small group of people take it into their heads that seismologists have the power to reliably predict an earthquake and bring charges against the seismologists for failing to predict an earthquake?
Or would it require large-scale cooperation by many public officials? In which case we're looking at something with more of the color of state policy and less the color of a handful of fools in the middle management of the Italian government.
For that matter, does "manslaughter" even include "you failed to predict a natural disaster?" In Anglosphere law, manslaughter would only apply in cases when some high standard of negligence or willful blindness to the consequences of one's actions is at work. And I can't see the prosecutor being able to prove such a degree of negligence against these seismologists. It's hardly an unusual lack of due care or diligence to fail to do something that everyone everywhere fails to do practically every time.
...
Hmm. I looked at a few other articles- I get the feeling the government is accusing the seismologists not so much of failing to predict an earthquake, as of assuring people in the area that an earthquake would not take place or at least lulling them into a false sense of security. However, I'm not sure of the details- what the scientists said and when they said it.
And it's still foolish- sounds more like one bad prosecutor than anything likely to stand as Italian law.
Can a prosecutor in Italy do something like that? I mean, accepting that they might torpedo their career by charging someone with something bluntly stupid, do they have the kind of latitude it takes to pull something like this? Could one person, or a small group of people take it into their heads that seismologists have the power to reliably predict an earthquake and bring charges against the seismologists for failing to predict an earthquake?
Or would it require large-scale cooperation by many public officials? In which case we're looking at something with more of the color of state policy and less the color of a handful of fools in the middle management of the Italian government.
For that matter, does "manslaughter" even include "you failed to predict a natural disaster?" In Anglosphere law, manslaughter would only apply in cases when some high standard of negligence or willful blindness to the consequences of one's actions is at work. And I can't see the prosecutor being able to prove such a degree of negligence against these seismologists. It's hardly an unusual lack of due care or diligence to fail to do something that everyone everywhere fails to do practically every time.
...
Hmm. I looked at a few other articles- I get the feeling the government is accusing the seismologists not so much of failing to predict an earthquake, as of assuring people in the area that an earthquake would not take place or at least lulling them into a false sense of security. However, I'm not sure of the details- what the scientists said and when they said it.
And it's still foolish- sounds more like one bad prosecutor than anything likely to stand as Italian law.
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
A quick nitpick. It's a prosecutor that started all this fuss, thankfully prosecutors have nothing to do with government proper (although there are laws in the works to subjugate them to the Parliament's veto).I get the feeling the government is accusing the seismologists not so much of failing to predict an earthquake, as of assuring people in the area that an earthquake would not take place or at least lulling them into a false sense of security.
Anyway, this is right. The explanation for the charge is that the guys gave "a too generic, half-assed and ineffective evaluation given what the team was supposed to do and their duties of prevention and prevision of seismic risk". Italian article with that
I'd like to point out that those weren't just "scientists", they were guys in a team whose work was quake risk assessment. Other random scientists did shout End Will Come!!! for that quake, but they weren't in charge of a damn thing so their opinion was worth shit.
The paper they produced on March 31 2009 (earthquake happened April 6), containing their risk assessment analysis.However, I'm not sure of the details- what the scientists said and when they said it.
To make a long story short, after some half-assed speculations where they don't think anything will happen, they conclude by clearly stating that they have no fucking idea if there will be an earthquake or not, due to lack of data about so small quakes preceding a big one in the past and the fact that other times there were swarms of small quakes and still no Big One after them, the fact Radon measurements are pointless and that there are no other ways at their disposal.
They conclude that the only defense is making buildings able to resist quakes.
Then, various political talking heads took out-of-context quotes from the above to state that there won't be any quake, and that the experts said so. Those should be the ones spanked. Maybe this will redirect the prosecutor to them.
Then you have guys like Paolo Stefanelli, the president of the national council of engineers, that keep reminding every now and then that stuff built in the fifties and sixties is likely to be a piece of crap and someone should do a law to do regular checks on the status of all buildings. (so far they do checks only after the buildings are completed, and then none does serious checks on them other than giving a look around every now and then)
Sure they can, but they can be shot down. There is a check to see if there are good reasons to proceed. The session to decide if this is worth or not the fuss is scheduled for September 20 (as per the link above).Can a prosecutor in Italy do something like that?
A general rule of thumb for you. If it doesn't benefit Berlusconi, it isn't state policy.something with more of the color of state policy
As I said, the Judiciary is still remarkably uninfluenced by the other two powers (executive and legislative, both in the hands of Berlusconi).
There is a reason why they get routinely called "red (=communist) gowns" by him.
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
Even then, if the weatherman doesn't predict lightning its not as if he is going to get charged if you get struck by a bolt yes?Alyrium Denryle wrote:Really? REALLY!?
Hint Italy: GEOLOGISTS CANNOT FORECAST EARTHQUAKES LIKE METEOROLOGISTS CAN THE WEATHER. Get it through your heads.
Aly if I am bitten by a snake next week I am suing you for not predicting its behavior.
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
someone_else, thanks for the links to the Italian sources. Of course, I'd need to pick them apart with a dictionary in one hand to get all the nuances, but it seemed clear enough even to me that they couldn't really do any more than that in the report for the reasons already stated. Your comment on the talking heads who took their report out of context and who should be spanked over this is spot on.
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
About time. I'm going to sue the pants off of the newspaper for getting my horoscope wrong.
Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
But Italy has a completely modern and brilliant justice system. Judges in Italy are WAY too smart to make a backwards, boneheaded decision like this...
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
So, for those of us who have only a nodding acquaintance with basic geology, has the prosecution got any case whatever? The amount of spin it would require to turn this story into something credibly resembling the fault of the seismologists seems entirely out of proportion to whatever political benefits might accrue from the introduction of a scapegoat for an earthquake that took place two years ago.
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
No way in hell; the seismologists outright said they had no idea what would happen.
I think the prosecutor's just gone crazystupid.
I think the prosecutor's just gone crazystupid.
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
I see what you mean, but the amount of shit that happened after the quake (people in charge of construction companies intercepted laughing in joy after the quake about how much money will be handed to them for the reconstruction, the fact that scaffolding used to stabilize structures was leased, not bought, and some motherfucker decided to stabilize houses that were basically wrecked and do fucking pieces of art that cost a boatlaod of cash to the state every month. And various other things like the guy in charge of Civil Protection giving contracts to rebuild stuff to people that pay "massages" ahem, to him.) caused the fast disappearance of anything remotely hinting at L'Aquila from practically all television news (the three RAI are state-controlled, and Berlusconi is in charge, three channels are private, owned by Berlusconi. Only la7, a relatively small channel with limited coverage is free, although does its best to not get sued to oblivion) and most of the newspapers (owned or controlled someway).MarxII wrote:The amount of spin it would require to turn this story into something credibly resembling the fault of the seismologists seems entirely out of proportion to whatever political benefits might accrue from the introduction of a scapegoat for an earthquake that took place two years ago.
Berlusconi-controlled stuff didn't tell this story at all (we are in the middle of an election of mayors in various critical cities like Milan, the primary Berusconi fort and looks like his drone could lose, so he and the rest of his remote-controlled news and newspapers were busy in defaming the other candidate in the most childish ways possible), so I think they don't plan to use them as a scapegoats.
I keep my view, political talking heads took out of context quotes from that paper to claim "everything will be fine" before the quake and people that didn't read the paper (and the prosecutor is one of them) think the fault is of the seismologists, in being "so sure that nothing would happen" when you cannot predict quakes.
I remain faithful this will be shot down and someone will tell the prosecutor to go bash the low-grade politicians (mayors, governors and whatever) since they are the ones that said nonsense using the paper as a shield.
While I agree that the justice system is slightly fucked up (10 years for a definitive sentence? eeek!!!), why are you saying they are stupid?Judges in Italy are WAY too smart to make a backwards, boneheaded decision like this...
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
I admit that I am not entirely familiar with the Italian justice system, but I don't see what the actions of a prosecutor have to do with judges. Until and unless they start making rulings on the case you can hardly condemn them.SancheztheWhaler wrote:But Italy has a completely modern and brilliant justice system. Judges in Italy are WAY too smart to make a backwards, boneheaded decision like this...
Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
Wow. I hear a kind word for Berlusconi about as often as I do for Santorum, but I had no notion his ability to block or spin information ran that deep. Term limits, anyone?someone_else wrote: I see what you mean, but the amount of shit that happened after the quake (people in charge of construction companies intercepted laughing in joy after the quake about how much money will be handed to them for the reconstruction, the fact that scaffolding used to stabilize structures was leased, not bought, and some motherfucker decided to stabilize houses that were basically wrecked and do fucking pieces of art that cost a boatlaod of cash to the state every month.
And as for the link about the art, you'll have to forgive my dual-wielding ignorance of both the Italian language and the details of restorative construction, but the pictures I see there seem to be of fairly standard if perhaps densely placed scaffolding. Lovely buildings though.
Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
Teebs wrote:I admit that I am not entirely familiar with the Italian justice system, but I don't see what the actions of a prosecutor have to do with judges. Until and unless they start making rulings on the case you can hardly condemn them.SancheztheWhaler wrote:But Italy has a completely modern and brilliant justice system. Judges in Italy are WAY too smart to make a backwards, boneheaded decision like this...
You need to pay more attention to the article:
There's no mention of prosecutors... only the judge saying a committee has been put together.The decision to try the six members of a committee tasked with determining the risk of an earthquake in the area (along with a government official) was announced on Wednesday (May 25) by Judge Giuseppe Romano, according to a news article from the American Association for the Advancement of Science.
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
It is not total control like Soviet Russia but still a few miles over the top for a proper democracy. There are still decent programs that denounce the shit that is going on, but they are generally placed late or when there reality shows and similar high-share shit on other channels. Thankfully he is barely aware of the existence of Internet.Wow. I hear a kind word for Berlusconi about as often as I do for Santorum, but I had no notion his ability to block or spin information ran that deep.
Yeah, the main issue was that they are too densely placed for the work they are doing, and since they are in lease, the more they stay there and the more Italy has to pay for them. And reconstruction is very very very slow.the pictures I see there seem to be of fairly standard if perhaps densely placed scaffolding. Lovely buildings though.
I've seen "doors" made of scaffolding too, with something like 50 scaffolding nodes.
I have to fix a mistake I made above. Judge Giuseppe Romano is a "Gup", a judge that decides if the trial can start or not.SancheztheWhaler wrote:There's no mention of prosecutors... only the judge saying a committee has been put together.
He gave the go-ahead to start the trial, that will begin the 20 of september.
Feel free to bash him, but don't say every judge is stupid unless you have something to back the claim.
I'm somewhat partial to the judiciary and law enforcement, since in this madness the majority of them still tries to do their work decently even in silly strapped-for-cash conditions.
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Realistic spacecraft are pressurized because they are flying propellant tanks. -Isaac Kuo
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Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
You should read this topicsomeone_else wrote:While I agree that the justice system is slightly fucked up (10 years for a definitive sentence? eeek!!!), why are you saying they are stupid?Judges in Italy are WAY too smart to make a backwards, boneheaded decision like this...
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=139119
which is the reason why STW is still carrying a grudge vs the italian judiciary system.
Re: Seismologists Charged with Manslaughter
Evidently I do.SancheztheWhaler wrote: You need to pay more attention to the article: