How would Federation personal did throw movie Pradtors

[PREDATOR490]

These Predators were shown to be dodging fire from a mini-gun and shotgun fire even at close range. Phaser rifles dont fire that fast and wide angle fire in DS9 was a vertical sweep. If wide angle was an effective crowd control mechanic one would expect them to have use it in the Siege of AR-558 which was effectively a wide open bottleneck. I do not see this setting magically helping them in a jungle against invisible / agile targets.

In Voyager, when an alien is possessing crew members, someone (Tuvok I think) wide-beam stuns the entire bridge crew. Yes, it was at close range, and yes, it was only stun (not kill or vaporize), but it is possible to take out a group with one shot using phasers.

Edit: no idea why they didn't use it in the Seige of AR-558. Different type of phaser? Low on power? Incompetence? Who knows?

Its possible to stun unarmoured human targets at close range with one shot.

There is no indication such a setting would work against a Predator who is NOT human and does have armor.
There is no indication this setting can escalate to kill or vaporise.
The only range observed on a wide angle sweep is confined to rooms against stationary targets.

Different type of phaser - If they have these phasers they are still stuck trying to hose a forest blind against invisible and agile targets. If they do not then the Feddies are even more boned.

Low on power - AR-558 had the Jem-Hadar funnelled into a bottleneck killzone which makes the wide angle monumentally easier to use. If power is a problem here then hosing an entire jungle would be a colossal use of power on a setting that may not even work.

Incompetence - These are combat veterns of the Dominion War so if they are incompetent it does not reflect well on the rest of the Federation combat capability.

The composition of the group dosent bode well for unit cohesion or potential skillsets. All it takes is one of those folks to fuckup with their wide angle sweep and they friendly fire each other. When the African guy gets speared he sprays his weapon... with folks around him. Do that with a wide angle shot and the Predators stab them to death while they are stunned.

[Batman]

As for why no wide angle stun at AR-558 IIRC it is stated in the series that stun doesn't work on the Jem'Hadar period.

[Stofsk]

Its possible to stun unarmoured human targets at close range with one shot.

There is no indication such a setting would work against a Predator who is NOT human and does have armor.

There are multiple settings on a phaser, most of which do work reliably. Also, what the hell kind of armour does the predator wear?

There is no indication this setting can escalate to kill or vaporise.

There is actually. Phaser rifles were set to fire an expanding energy pulse in 'The Adversary' when they were used in Jeffries tubes. They said they also set the phasers high enough to hurt the changeling but low enough to not damage equipment. In 'Way of the Warrior' we see Kira and Sisko sweep a room with phaser rifles set to wide beam. Since Changelings aren't really affected by stun settings, I would suggest this means they can be set to higher 'kill' settings (with 16 settings to choose from, it doesn't have to be the 'vapourise' setting all the time). Although this was a training scenario and the phasers were likely set to level 1, they were training to hunt Changelings so it stands to reason they could be set higher on wide-beam. It's circumstantial but I'll take it.

As for why nobody set their phasers to wide-beam in AR-558, who knows. I personally think the writers simply didn't want to for dramatic reasons or plain forgot. There is no satisfactory reason in-universe. As it relates to this scenario, really the biggest issue is the predator's cloak. Everything else is pretty much meaningless.

[Batman]

Err-in 'Way of the Warrior' they were using their phasers as active sensors unless I'm very much mistaken. They didn't expect the widebeam to kill a Founder (note the complete and utter lack of effect it had on, well, anything) as opposed to telling them 'Yup, that's not a coffee table, it's a Founder.'

[Stofsk]

Why would you use a weapon to merely detect something which, upon detection, would attempt to murder you? As per the Adversary line, the phasers wouldn't be set high enough to damage their surroundings, but high enough to hurt the Changeling.

EDIT In any case it would be easy enough to set the phaser higher when the Changeling is spotted anyway.

[PREDATOR490]

Its possible to stun unarmoured human targets at close range with one shot.

There is no indication such a setting would work against a Predator who is NOT human and does have armor.

There are multiple settings on a phaser, most of which do work reliably. Also, what the hell kind of armour does the predator wear?

First contact with the Predators

Wide angle fire in that situation would be monumentally dangerous and standard phaser beam / pulse would have no reason to be more accurate vs those weapons against invisible targets. Pointing out multiple settings is entirely pointless though. I already said if a Predator got hit with a vaporise shot its going to be wasted. However, the problem still remains wether or not the Feds can actually HIT it.

If you cant hit the thing then it dosent matter what goddamn setting you use.


As for armor:

The convict gets plastered with a plasmacaster round and survives due to the Predator body armor he wears. Taken from a Predator by Morpheous.
Bullets have been seen to bounce off Predators or otherwise not affect them while others do. Since Predators are not bullet proof it stands to reason the bullets are hitting parts of the armor / gear the Predators use.

That becomes a bigger problem for the TR and for the phasers if the armor works against them and if the Predators deploy more armor in response to the Feds energy weaponary.

There is no indication this setting can escalate to kill or vaporise.

There is actually. Phaser rifles were set to fire an expanding energy pulse in 'The Adversary' when they were used in Jeffries tubes. They said they also set the phasers high enough to hurt the changeling but low enough to not damage equipment. In 'Way of the Warrior' we see Kira and Sisko sweep a room with phaser rifles set to wide beam. Since Changelings aren't really affected by stun settings, I would suggest this means they can be set to higher 'kill' settings (with 16 settings to choose from, it doesn't have to be the 'vapourise' setting all the time).

DS9 Homefront directly contradicts that.

The settings for the fixed sentries was stated to be 3.1 - 3.5 which is within the stun catagory
They cause no visible damage to the environment and Odo certainly bitches its hurting him enough to knock him out of his changeling state. NOT enough to kill him.

The setting they set numbers at 3.5
This would make it a stun setting and thus no wide angle setting has ever been observed higher than stun.

The rest of the settings are all over the place for what they do and they seem more utility than actual combat orientated.
If it were possible to fire kill / vaporise settings even as an expanding pulse AR-558 would have been ample reason to use it. Nevermind taking out corridors of Borg with one shot, blah blah blah. The major issue still becomes trying to hit the Predators in the first place. The Predators will either start dodging when they get fired at like they did in the movie or blast the Feds with plasmacaster fire the same way the chaingun got taken out.

Hosing a forest every few feet will be massively impractical as a means of revealing a Predator and in that initial encouter the wide angle setting would risk colossal friendly fire issues. Assuming any of them even used it at this point since they are just meeting the Predators for the first time.

Either the Feds get slaughtered or they bolt and fall in the water - which introduces the issue of wether or not their equipment will still function properly. After that it's on to the meeting with Morpheous etc.

[JasonB]

Here example photon granad punch we heard starfleet talk many time us this kind weapon in could fact used stander UFP foot soldiers. Watch this video form if wish see evidence how power this weapon is watch this video form 5 minute and 56 seconds to about to 6 minute and 16 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzcA8djX ... re=related

[Sarevok]

If Federation away team is competent they will work as a team. Some sweep ahead with widebeams. Others stand by to follow with maximum setting phaser fire as soon as the widebeam causes the Predator to decloak. A widebeam phaser may not have enough punch to kill or stun a Predator but it may disrupt his cloak making him an easier target.

[Enigma]

Here example photon granad punch we heard starfleet talk many time us this kind weapon in could fact used stander UFP foot soldiers. Watch this video form if wish see evidence how power this weapon is watch this video form 5 minute and 56 seconds to about to 6 minute and 16 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzcA8djX ... re=related

It's an alien using some type of breaching bomb. This translates to imaginary foot soldiers carrying them?

[Enigma]

If Federation away team is competent they will work as a team. Some sweep ahead with widebeams. Others stand by to follow with maximum setting phaser fire as soon as the widebeam causes the Predator to decloak. A widebeam phaser may not have enough punch to kill or stun a Predator but it may disrupt his cloak making him an easier target.

But with the people he chose to make up such team would make it improbable that they'd work together as a competent unit.

Also, the Preds aren't going to sit there while they wildly fire their phasers in wide beam mode.

[PREDATOR490]

Here example photon granad punch we heard starfleet talk many time us this kind weapon in could fact used stander UFP foot soldiers. Watch this video form if wish see evidence how power this weapon is watch this video form 5 minute and 56 seconds to about to 6 minute and 16 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzcA8djX ... re=related

Utterly worthless post that points out nothing remotely useful. The Feds magically have breaching bombs because aliens used them on the other side of the galaxy... ?
Uh ok, so why are THESE Feds carrying breaching bombs and why the hell are they going to try and 'BREACH' a Predator ?

Your trying to argue the Feds have grenades - Uh sure. It's called putting the phasers to overload but it kinda costs you the weapon.

If Federation away team is competent they will work as a team. Some sweep ahead with widebeams. Others stand by to follow with maximum setting phaser fire as soon as the widebeam causes the Predator to decloak. A widebeam phaser may not have enough punch to kill or stun a Predator but it may disrupt his cloak making him an easier target.

It isnt a Federation away team, its a mixed band of folks from the Federation forced to be in a team. There is a massive difference here.

Federation Medical Doctor - "It is my oath to do no harm and save lifes, blah blah"
Federation Rebel - "Fuck Starfleet"
Federation Death Row - "I'm a high security prisoner. Probably a murderer"
Federation Citizen Merc - " Tell me again how much your paying me ? "
Section 31 - Shady arm of the Federation they dont want to admit exists
Turkana IV - "I'm a rapist / killer"
Federation Soldier - Gold shirt to the rescue

The folks that were kidnapped in Predators were varied but they did not have severe grudges of dislikes to one another beyond one or two. This group on the other hand has folks from within the Federation that will not play well together either because they hate each other or because their backgrounds make them clash.
The training could easily be varied enough that they are a liability in a firefight and it only takes one of them to screw up with a wide angle stun beam.

As for the Predators, they are going to quickly realise what the Feds are doing and avoid those sweeps. Either letting them walk into more traps or hammering them with ranged fire. Trying to hose a a full circle every few feet would be time consuming and merely give the Predators a nice target to home the plasmacaster shot on.
Similar to what they did with the chaingun.

[Enigma]

The problem with doing sweeps is that they are not indoors. They'll have to aim high (as in up in the trees) and aim low. Massive waste of energy. After a few minutes those rifles would be out of power and they'll be back to square one but without rifles.

[JasonB]

The problem with doing sweeps is that they are not indoors. They'll have to aim high (as in up in the trees) and aim low. Massive waste of energy. After a few minutes those rifles would be out of power and they'll be back to square one but without rifles.

In practice all those federation citizens wait one smell island areas on planet wait Praetor come them. just look water splashing and fire at that place.

[Night_stalker]

That's of course, assuming the Predator just doesn't use it's long range weapons, like say it's plasmacaster, smart disks, or something similar.

Or that it lets them walk through the jungle to the island, without picking them off, one by one.

Or that the Predator is a idiot.

Lot of assumptions with that statement.

[Srelex]

The problem with doing sweeps is that they are not indoors. They'll have to aim high (as in up in the trees) and aim low. Massive waste of energy. After a few minutes those rifles would be out of power and they'll be back to square one but without rifles.

In practice all those federation citizens wait one smell island areas on planet wait Praetor come them. just look water splashing and fire at that place.

So the Predators were kind to provide them with transporters too, huh? Or maybe they'll be too high to avoid going through the terrain that shorts out their fucking cloak.

[Enigma]

The problem with doing sweeps is that they are not indoors. They'll have to aim high (as in up in the trees) and aim low. Massive waste of energy. After a few minutes those rifles would be out of power and they'll be back to square one but without rifles.

In practice all those federation citizens wait one smell island areas on planet wait Praetor come them. just look water splashing and fire at that place.

Keep moving the goalposts dipshit.

[Batman]

Let's keep them all on that one smelly island. They're bound to be dizzy due to the smell, they'll get into each other's way, and they will not be able to tell whether this is an incoming Predator, an eddy caused by some subsurface ocean floor feature, one caused by some maritime lifeform or other, and besides all that, they won't be watching 24/7.

[Srelex]

It's moot anyway since the Pred won't go in the water--like I mentioned, their cloaks short out in it.

[PREDATOR490]

It's moot anyway since the Pred won't go in the water--like I mentioned, their cloaks short out in it.

Previous cloaks shorted out in it, these are new Predators decades later that seemingly improve their tech based on what they encounter. They may short out or may not.

Regardless, the idea of them swimming to an island is fucking stupid beyond belief. That means the Feds have to RUN and the Predators HUNT THEM. I.E Giving the Predators exactly what they want in a planet seeded with traps.

Even IF they reach the island... their gear is now soaked with no replacements if it gets damaged and they are stuck on an island until the Predators track them down.

It would have been more reasonable to say they could camp out in the abandoned facility hidden from the Predators like Morpheous. That would probably work as long if they demonstrated sufficient intellect to go undetected AND defeat Morpheous without alerting the Predators. That said, it would only be a matter of time before they are either tracked to the facility or they venture out for supplies and get pegged.

It should be blatantly obvious THEY CANNOT GET OFFWORLD. Thus they could kill 1 or 10,000 Predators and still be stuck. All that will change is the Predators get MORE interested in them as a means of improving their hunting skills.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yes, being stuck on planet sucks.

Their are two ways to deal with this besides attrition until they're destroyed.

1. Try to highjack a Predator ship. As I recall this was the plan in Predators, though it failed.

2. Try to ally with other captives, maybe build a resistance force. I think the ending of the film hinted at this possibility. This would play to the Federation's love of diplomacy, but given most of the prisoners are likely to be violent, war-like types, and that if the Predators ever completely lose control of the planet they can presumably fall back on orbital bombardment and then find a new hunting ground...

[JasonB]

It's moot anyway since the Pred won't go in the water--like I mentioned, their cloaks short out in it.

Previous cloaks shorted out in it, these are new Predators decades later that seemingly improve their tech based on what they encounter. They may short out or may not.

Regardless, the idea of them swimming to an island is fucking stupid beyond belief. That means the Feds have to RUN and the Predators HUNT THEM. I.E Giving the Predators exactly what they want in a planet seeded with traps.

Even IF they reach the island... their gear is now soaked with no replacements if it gets damaged and they are stuck on an island until the Predators track them down.

It would have been more reasonable to say they could camp out in the abandoned facility hidden from the Predators like Morpheous. That would probably work as long if they demonstrated sufficient intellect to go undetected AND defeat Morpheous without alerting the Predators. That said, it would only be a matter of time before they are either tracked to the facility or they venture out for supplies and get pegged.


It should be blatantly obvious THEY CANNOT GET OFFWORLD. Thus they could kill 1 or 10,000 Predators and still be stuck. All that will change is the Predators get MORE interested in them as a means of improving their hunting skills.

You seem made a mistake what I meant by island talking area were water few feet deep surround area of dry land. Facts they were in jungle area like that must likely many different area like that for that matter.

However I think their best bet is stealing Praetor starship while I could safely rule out Praetor starship defense inside with fact Praetor bother blow up Praetor starship any instead turn on defense let them do his dirty job for him. So Praetor starship good distance away camp. It likely UFP steal predator starship turn cloaking device on when they fled.

[Darth Nostril]

Why Praetor try UFP to kill? Romulan allies of UFP follow ending of Nemesis they are, help of killing in Shazon.

[Batman]

Much to coherent I'm afraid.

[PREDATOR490]

It's moot anyway since the Pred won't go in the water--like I mentioned, their cloaks short out in it.

Previous cloaks shorted out in it, these are new Predators decades later that seemingly improve their tech based on what they encounter. They may short out or may not.

Regardless, the idea of them swimming to an island is fucking stupid beyond belief. That means the Feds have to RUN and the Predators HUNT THEM. I.E Giving the Predators exactly what they want in a planet seeded with traps.

Even IF they reach the island... their gear is now soaked with no replacements if it gets damaged and they are stuck on an island until the Predators track them down.

It would have been more reasonable to say they could camp out in the abandoned facility hidden from the Predators like Morpheous. That would probably work as long if they demonstrated sufficient intellect to go undetected AND defeat Morpheous without alerting the Predators. That said, it would only be a matter of time before they are either tracked to the facility or they venture out for supplies and get pegged.


It should be blatantly obvious THEY CANNOT GET OFFWORLD. Thus they could kill 1 or 10,000 Predators and still be stuck. All that will change is the Predators get MORE interested in them as a means of improving their hunting skills.

You seem made a mistake what I meant by island talking area were water few feet deep surround area of dry land. Facts they were in jungle area like that must likely many different area like that for that matter.

Your plan is for them to sit in an area surrounded by a few feet of water and wait for a Predator to slosh their way through it...

It's not like these Predators have demonstrated drone technology, sent dogs or like to approach from trees. Hiding in a clearing surrounded by water would be an insanely bad idea when they will be able to see ACROSS that clearing with their enhanced vision modes then hammer you with plasmacaster fire.

However I think their best bet is stealing Praetor starship while I could safely rule out Praetor starship defense inside with fact Praetor bother blow up Praetor starship any instead turn on defense let them do his dirty job for him. So Praetor starship good distance away camp. It likely UFP steal predator starship turn cloaking device on when they fled.

It took a Predator to activate the ship with Predator technology. It is unlikely the Federation would be able to duplicate such a feat and even if they do. All it takes is one Predator to activate the self-destruct. Since new 'prey' was being dropped routinely even when a hunt was in progress AND the previous ship had been destroyed. It would appear more ships are dropping prey off and thus will intercept a stolen ship.

The Feds wont even know the ship is there until Morpheous tells them and thus they are stuck in the facility. This assumes at least SOME of them make it to this point.
By this point in the movie two of the characters were killed. With this group composition the amount of fatalities could be ALL of them just from assorted mix of deadman traps leading to the camp encounter.

The best course of action for any Fed member stuck here is to hole up in that facility, ally with Morpheous or manage to kill him without alerting the Predators. Should be entirely possible for them to get out of the locked room by blasting it with max settings on the phasers or plug Morpheous through the wall with the transporter rifle.

[JasonB]

Fact UFP behind rocks and other object Predator come though head set scans. SO us blase weapons UFP area piece rocks and other objects above foot full water is not coming plamas guns trying blast to bits.