Bitcoin

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Xisiqomelir
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Bitcoin

Post by Xisiqomelir »

Was strongly considering putting this in G&C. Mods, feel free to move this if needed.

The Wikipedia article and this introductory video are good places to get a quick sense of what Bitcoin is all about, as is the official Bitcoin FAQ.

So, what's of interest about an anonymous, P2P, encrypted, limited-quantity (there will not be more than 21 million Bitcoins ever), alternative virtual currency invented by a (possibly) Japanese man? Aside from everything in the preceding sentence, now that Bitcoin is hitting the mainstream, it is exploding in value.

Because of Bitcoin's features, there are multiple constituencies interested in it. Drugdealers love that it's anonymous. Libertarians love that there is no central bank to adjust the hard-capped supply. And speculators love the 300,000% gains mentioned in the link in para 2.

A Google News search will throw up lots more articles, because it seems like Bitcoin really began to get noticed around March this year. For my actual quoted article for this OP, here's a blogpost I really like (click through for links and images):
On the Potential Adoption and Price Appreciation of Bitcoin in the Long Run
Published May 29, 2011 Bitcoin Leave a Comment

(If you don’t know much about Bitcoin, please read the excellent introduction posted at the MIT Technology Review by Tom Simonite. You may also want to read the recent paper by Reuben Grinberg, a J.D. candidate at the Yale Law School.)

In less than a year, the price of Bitcoin has increased from close to zero to nearly $9 as I write this (see below), prompting the digerati to question, only half-jokingly, if Bitcoin prices are in a “bubble” – see this post by economist Tyler Cowen for a typical example. For the underlying conventional wisdom is that use of Bitcoin is highly unlikely ever to expand beyond a few niche markets – e.g., idealistic hackers, online gamblers, and miscellaneous underground characters.
Price of Bitcoin

The price of Bitcoin has risen from approximately zero to nearly $9 in less than a year.

I disagree with the conventional wisdom: I’m persuaded that in the long run (think many years or even decades, not just a few years), Bitcoin is likely to gain wide adoption worldwide, and its price is therefore bound to rise far above current levels over time.

Before explaining why and how, allow me to take a brief detour to discuss what happened in Zimbabwe on January 29, 2009 – just over two years ago. On that date, the BBC reported that this poor nation was forced to abandon its currency, the Zimbabwean dollar, because virtually no one inside or outside the country trusted it anymore. As I write this, Zimbabwe doesn’t have an official currency: for the moment its citizens are free to conduct business in any currency.

Hyperinflation led to the Zimbabwean dollar’s demise. The facts are almost surreal. At one point in early 2007, in an act of desperation, the government tried to control inflation by declaring it illegal, such that anyone who raised prices or wages would go to jail; in response, prices and wages began rising at a faster rate. By July 2008, the official inflation rate reached over 231,000,000%; the following month, the government stopped reporting inflation altogether. Not long after that, a newly issued hundred-trillion-dollar bill couldn’t even buy a bus ticket; by then just about everyone everywhere had lost faith in the currency.
Hundred-Trillion Zimbabwean Dollar Bill

This Zimbabwean dollar bill was issued shortly before the currency's demise. (Image source: Wikipedia)

Words cannot do justice to the chaos and terror inflicted by the demise of a currency: regular folk lose both their normal repository of purchasing power and their normal means of measuring the worth of everything – for many, degree of need becomes the new yardstick of value. As things spiral out of control, monetary authorities in desperation react by imposing increasingly draconian rules that serve only to accelerate the process. Those who can turn to the US dollar, gold – anything, really, that can possibly hold its purchasing power, so long as it’s not the dying currency.

Had it been possible and practical circa 2007, surely many desperate Zimbabweans would have traded at least some of their soon-to-be-obsolete Zimbabwean dollars for a global, digital currency actively traded abroad – especially one that is anonymous and decentralized like Bitcoin: better bitcoins of debatable value than Zimbabwean dollars of vanishing value. (By “practical,” I mean easy enough to buy, sell, and use for most individuals in the country.)

The same could be said for the people of Yugoslavia in the early 1990’s, who at one point saw newly issued banknotes with additional zeros worthless within days; or Argentines circa 2001, when their government subjected them to the so-called “corralito” – the nickname given to a law forbidding withdrawals from many bank accounts; or Mexicans in December 1994, when the Peso lost around half of its value against the US dollar in a couple of weeks as the Mexican government flirted with default; or Belarusians in the years leading to 2002; or Bolivians in the mid-1980’s; or Brazilians in the early 1990’s; or the Polish circa 1991; or Russians in August 1998; or Indonesians, South Koreans, and Thais in the summer of 1997… I could go on. The list of countries that have suffered a currency crisis, hyperinflation, or the outright demise of an official currency over the past few decades is long.

The number of people alive who have suffered through such currency disasters is therefore enormous – around a billion live in just the countries mentioned above.
Argentines Protesting the "Corralito" of 2001-2002

Argentines protesting the "corralito" of 2001-2002. The sign reads "THIEVING BANKS - GIVE BACK OUR DOLLARS." (Image source: Wikipedia)

The number grows considerably larger if we include all people who have suffered through other types of man-made disasters, whether economic crises, political turmoil, religious and ethnic strife, revolution, or war. (As a reference point, Wikipedia lists over 100 wars occurring worldwide since 1990.) The expanded figure is in the order of billions of people – a sobering fact for anyone who has experienced only the relative stability of the developed world in his or her lifetime. (In late 2008, people in the developed world got only but a brief hint of how it might feel to suffer through such full-on disasters.)

When people are forced by fate to face the extreme uncertainty of such circumstances, they often seek to diversify away from local currencies facing existential risk and turn to the US dollar, gold, or anything else, really, that can possibly hold its purchasing power under all but the most dire of scenarios. Unsurprisingly, a majority of all US dollar bills in circulation – the cumbersome ones made of actual paper – are held outside the US, for when even the viability of banks has been rendered in doubt, no bank deposit can ever substitute for cash.

Had it been possible and practical (in the sense explained further above) when things looked hopeless, surely many among those billions of people would have traded at least some of their holdings of local currency for a global, decentralized, anonymous, digital currency actively traded abroad – especially one with the properties of Bitcoin.

Properties of Bitcoin

Bitcoin is not just global, decentralized, and anonymous; it is also the most versatile form of cash introduced to date. For a bitcoin is just a long sequence of digits with certain cryptographic attributes, so anything one can do with numbers, one can just as easily do with it. In practical terms, this means Bitcoin is easier to secure, transport, hide, and backup than all prior forms of cash ever used by civilization. (Actually, no prior form of cash ever in use – whether made of paper, metal, or other material – could be backed up like Bitcoin.)

As an arbitrary example of Bitcoin’s extreme versatility, imagine, say, a US government agent in hostile territory who needs to send cash to a second agent located a few miles away, but there is no safe transportation, no phone line, no Internet connection, and no third party who could serve as an intermediary. With Bitcoin, it can be done: the first agent can encrypt a bitcoin wallet on any computing device and send the resulting sequence of encrypted digits via almost any means available: radio broadcast, lighthouse beam, drumbeats, even smoke signals. (Transmitting many thousands of digits via smoke signals might take a long time, but it can be done.) Anyone intercepting the message would obtain just the encrypted sequence. Whether embodied as radio signals, light beams, sound waves, or columns of smoke, actual cash would be securely traveling from one agent to the other. Being numbers, bitcoins can be sent over almost any medium.

Having been only recently introduced, at the moment Bitcoin requires a minimum of technical expertise to use (specifically, installing a software application on a personal computer). However, judging by the growing number of new tools, services, and infrastructure being developed worldwide for and around Bitcoin, I would expect it to become much easier to use in the not too distant future – easy enough, say, for anyone who can use a mobile phone.

Bitcoins are much harder to forge than paper currencies, because the sequence of digits that makes up each bitcoin is practically impossible to replicate without access to the original. In fact, it’s easier for a criminal to make counterfeit US dollar bills that can fool people on the street than to make ‘counterfeit bitcoins’ that can fool Bitcoin’s peer-to-peer network: the former can be accomplished with paper, ink, and printing equipment; the latter would require breaking state-of-the-art cryptographic hashing and signing algorithms (currently SHA-256 and ECDSA).

Bitcoins are scarce by design – their supply will grow to a maximum of 21 million by 2030 – but, being numbers, they can be subdivided into arbitrarily smaller parts. (At the moment, subdivision is limited for practical purposes to eight decimal points of precision, but this limit is not inherent to the design.) The subdivided parts of a bitcoin, being numbers too, have the same exact properties as the whole; thus, should the need ever arise, the world could just as easily deal in milli-Bitcoin (a thousandth of a bitcoin), micro-Bitcoin (a millionth), etc. as in Bitcoin.

Finally, as the first-ever form of “crypto-cash” to gain brand recognition and market momentum, Bitcoin is now benefiting from growing network effects. Bitcoin, in short, has gone viral – something that would be extremely difficult, if not impossible to replicate by any would-be competitors. (As a side note, I can’t help but smirk whenever some or other expert on the subject of cryptography finds out about Bitcoin and almost immediately proposes some other design as superior, failing to realize that at this point it doesn’t matter.)

Intrinsic Value versus Price of Bitcoins

Adam Smith, the father of modern economics, distinguished between “value in use” and “value in exchange” – in his own words:

The word VALUE, it is to be observed, has two different meanings, and sometimes expresses the utility of some particular object, and sometimes the power of purchasing other goods which the possession of that object conveys. The one may be called ‘value in use;’ the other, ‘value in exchange.’ The things which have the greatest value in use have frequently little or no value in exchange; on the contrary, those which have the greatest value in exchange have frequently little or no value in use. Nothing is more useful than water: but it will purchase scarce anything; scarce anything can be had in exchange for it. A diamond, on the contrary, has scarce any use-value; but a very great quantity of other goods may frequently be had in exchange for it.

Bitcoins, being just numbers, have zero use-value. (Actually, their use-value is slightly negative, because they have tiny carrying costs – every moment one holds a bitcoin, one is paying for it with the consumption of resources such as storage space or electricity; but we can ignore these tiny carrying costs.)

Thus bitcoins can have only value in exchange: to the owner of a bitcoin, its value depends solely on what other people are willing to trade for it; should no one else want to trade anything for it (for example, if Bitcoin’s network were ever shown to be susceptible to concerted attack), the bitcoin’s exchange-value would revert to its use-value: zero.

For the sake of familiarity, let’s use the more common terms “intrinsic value” and “price,” respectively, to refer to the concepts of value in use and value in exchange. We can restate the above as follows: Bitcoin has no intrinsic value but may trade at any price, as set by supply and demand. In this regard, Bitcoin is like all other currencies in circulation today.

Trial by Fire

Given that over the past few decades billions of people have suffered financial, economic, and political crises and collapses, religious and ethnic conflicts, revolutions, and wars, shouldn’t we expect billions to live through more such man-made disasters in the coming decades?

The optimist in me hopes there are no more such horrible disasters anywhere in the world ever again; the realist in me has no choice but to expect them to occur from time to time.

In fact, they are always occurring. As I write this, European countries like Portugal, Ireland, Greece, and Spain are staring down at full-blown economic and political crises, and the Middle East is in the midst of a sudden, unexpected wave of political transformation, the ultimate consequences of which are uncertain.
May 2010 Protests in Greece

A Greek police officer runs from protestors in Athens on May 5, 2010. (Image source: Wikipedia)

The anonymity, decentralized nature, and extreme versatility of Bitcoin make it an ideal form of cash for coping with the extreme uncertainty inherent to such unstable situations. Financial crises, collapsed economies, toppled governments, military conflicts: Bitcoin can survive them all.

As Bitcoin becomes easier to buy, sell, and use by regular folk, its use in extreme, difficult circumstances therefore seems inevitable to me. When people are desperate, they tend to be more willing to try new things. So long as Bitcoin works as intended, people around the planet are bound to turn to it as the currency and store or value of last resort.

Trial by fire: that is how Bitcoin will have to prove its mettle.

If Bitcoin passes the harsh tests of crisis again and again, it will slowly gain credibility in the public’s mind, both as medium of exchange and store of value. Over a period of many years or even decades, as the world gradually learns via trial-and-error how to use Bitcoin, becomes familiar with its properties, and ultimately comes to trust it, nothing can prevent it from gaining as much credibility as, say, gold.

The world’s existing legal and regulatory regimes may not welcome Bitcoin at first – few governments are likely to take kindly to the emergence of a decentralized, anonymous, global currency beyond their control. Sooner or later, however, governments will adapt to the changing circumstances, as they always do. I would expect governmental acceptance of Bitcoin to occur initially in less developed countries, as many of them are already used to having their fortunes tied to a global currency beyond their control: the US dollar.

If I am right, in the long run, as man-made crises of all kinds erupt all over the planet from time to time, global demand for Bitcoin should gradually expand from niche markets to the broader population. Ultimately, global demand for Bitcoin should be enormous.

Quantifying Demand for Bitcoin in the Long Run

The primary goal of the analysis that follows is to get the orders of magnitude roughly right, not to come up with precise figures that would surely be wrong. A secondary goal is to provide you, the reader, with a simple framework you can use to quantify Bitcoin demand (and potential price) based on your own views about its future.

Global demand for Bitcoin over time should come in two forms: demand for it as medium of exchange, and demand for it as store of value. Let’s consider the former first.

We can estimate maximum possible global demand for Bitcoin as medium of exchange with a mental experiment. Imagine if all countries worldwide decided, en masse, to replace all currencies in circulation with bitcoins, all at the same time, in coordinated fashion – more or less in the same way that the initial members of the European Monetary Union replaced their respective national currencies (German Marks, French Francs, Italian Lire, etc.) with the euro on December 31, 1998. Obviously, such a wholesale replacement of all currencies for bitcoins will never happen, but please entertain the notion for a moment.

For such a replacement to be completed, all cash across all currencies carried around in wallets, locked in cash registers, packed in briefcases, stored under mattresses, secured inside safes, etc. – the total amount of ‘pocket change,’ as it were, the world needs to function every day – would have to be exchanged for bitcoins. The remaining components of the world’s monetary base, which by and large exist only in the form of accounting entries, would continue to exist as such, but denominated in bitcoins. (This is just like what was done to create the euro.)

Immediately after this wholesale replacement of all currencies, Bitcoin would be, to a close approximation, the only medium of exchange in the planet. Since everyone would be using Bitcoin, demand for it as a medium of exchange would have reached its maximum possible. It follows that total cash in circulation across all currencies (or more precisely, the goods and services that could be purchased with it) constitutes maximum possible global demand for bitcoins as medium of exchange at any point in time.

How much cash in circulation is there worldwide? According to the US Federal Reserve, as of May 2, 2011, the aggregate value of all US dollars in circulation is approximately $954 billion. According to the European Central Bank, at the end of March 2011, the aggregate value of all euros in circulation is approximately €846 billion (€824 billion in large denominations and €22 billion in small denominations), equivalent to approximately $1.2 trillion at current exchange rates. The aggregate market value of all US dollar and euro bills in circulation worldwide, at current exchange rates, is therefore around $2.2 trillion.

The US dollar and euro economies, in nominal terms, represent approximately half of the world’s annual economic output, so, all else being equal, we can assume that the aggregate market value of all other currencies in circulation used by all other economies in the world, at current exchange rates, is likely around $2.2 trillion too. (The figure may be lower because the US dollar and euro may enjoy wider use as “hard” currencies, but it could also be higher, because most of those other economies have lesser developed financial systems and therefore tend to rely much more on cash as opposed to electronic transactions. As a first approximation, for simplicity’s sake, let’s assume the figure is roughly the same.)

Thus cash in circulation today, across all currencies, totals around $4.4 trillion. You can think of this rough figure as the amount of pocket change the world needs, in total, to function every day. With world population currently estimated at nearly 6.8 billion, this works out to roughly $650 for every person alive. This per-person average seems reasonable to me given that it includes not just all cash held by individuals, but also that held across all organizations.

By implication, should a sufficiently large group of people ever adopt Bitcoin as their main medium of exchange, all else being the same, they would need around $650 worth of bitcoins in ‘pocket change’ circulating for every person in the group. (The figure will vary widely for some groups versus others, but one can easily adjust for such variations as and when necessary.) You can think of this figure as global average demand per person who adopts Bitcoin as his or her currency.

Demand for bitcoins as store of value is much harder to quantify, because so many types of assets – both financial assets like cash itself, bank deposits, government bonds, and shares of common stock, as well as real assets like property, artwork, jewelry, and precious metals – are regularly used for this purpose. I know of no way to estimate, in any remotely accurate way, which of all those assets, nor to what extent, could ever be displaced by Bitcoin as a store of value. (Complicating matters, the figures involved are barely fathomable. According to McKinsey & Co., just the world’s financial assets totaled approximately $178 trillion at year-end 2008, or roughly 40 times the amount of cash in circulation worldwide.)

Perhaps the most comparable asset to Bitcoin as a store of value might be gold: throughout history it has been used for that purpose; its supply is fixed to the amount that ultimately can be mined from the ground; its ownership can be anonymous; there is no single central authority that controls it; it pays no interest; and by and large no one uses it as currency today.

For simplicity’s sake, let’s limit ourselves to estimating what the demand for Bitcoin as store of value might be should the world ever adopt it for that purpose to the same extent as gold today. This demand would be in addition to any demand for Bitcoin as medium of exchange.

According to the World Gold Council, 165,000 tons of gold have been mined since the beginning of civilization, all of which are still with us. At $1,525 per troy ounce, all this gold is currently worth around $8.1 trillion. The World Gold Council estimates that over a third is held by investors and central banks for investment, worth approximately $2.7 trillion, or around $400 for every person alive. This, roughly, is how much gold the world owns as store of value.

By implication, should a sufficiently large group of people ever adopt Bitcoin as a store of value to the same extent as gold today, the group would need around $400 worth of bitcoins for every person in it. (The figure would obviously vary widely for some groups versus others, but one can adjust for such variations as and when necessary.) You can think of this figure as global average demand per person who adopts Bitcoin as a store of value to the same extent the world uses gold for the same purpose today.

Global demand for Bitcoin is therefore worth, on average, around $650 for every person who adopts it as his or her currency, plus $400 for every person who adopts it as a store of value to the same extent gold is used today. Don’t forget that these two figures are worldwide averages, so they will vary widely from person to person. Also, please note that both figures are in current US dollars; all else remaining the same, they will grow with US dollar inflation over time.

Bitcoin Price Will Be a Function of Adoption

Global supply is fixed at a maximum of 21 million bitcoins, so over time their price will necessarily be a function only of demand: the more people worldwide who want bitcoins, the greater their price. Price will thus be a function of adoption. Using the per-person averages calculated above, we can guesstimate what Bitcoin’s price might be under any adoption scenario.

For example, say that over the next 10 years, 100 million individuals worldwide adopt Bitcoin as a store of value (to the same extent gold is used today), but no one adopts it as his or her currency, and annual US dollar inflation is 3% over the entire period. By 2021, each of these individuals would need an average of $400 × 1.0310 or around $540 worth of bitcoins. Multiplying this figure by 100 million gives us around $54 billion worth of bitcoins needed by all these individuals as a group in 2021. Dividing this last figure by the number of bitcoins then outstanding, around 18.3 million, we obtain $2,950 per bitcoin, or $2.95 per milli-bitcoin (a thousandth of a bitcoin) – so, in the order of a few US dollars per milli-bitcoin.

For a more optimistic (likely unrealistic) scenario, say that over the next 20 years a billion people adopt Bitcoin both as their currency and as a store of value (to the same extent gold is used today), and annual US dollar inflation over the period is 3%. By 2031, each of these individuals would need an average of ($650+$400) × 1.0320 or around $1,900 worth of bitcoins. Multiplying this figure by a billion gives us around $1.9 trillion worth of bitcoins needed by the whole group in 2031. Dividing this last figure by the number of bitcoins then outstanding, 21 million, we obtain a price of over $90,000 per bitcoin, or $0.09 per micro-bitcoin (a millionth of a bitcoin) – so, in the order of a handful of US cents per micro-bitcoin.

One thing becomes evident to me from this exercise: should Bitcoin ever gain wide adoption, its price should rise by at least several orders of magnitude. The forecast, of course, will vary widely depending on the assumptions used, so I would encourage you to play with them and reach your own conclusion.

* * *

Addendum

Using similar logic, we can guesstimate Bitcoin adoption at any time. For instance, as I write this, there are just over 6.3 million bitcoins in existence, each trading for around $9, for a total Bitcoin market capitalization of around $57 million. (You can see the current number of bitcoins in existence here and their current trading price here.)

The early adopters who own these bitcoins by and large seem to be hoarding them and speculating like day-traders using Bitcoin as a store of value, not as a currency; and they likely own more than the global average per person of $400 worth of bitcoins we estimated above, because they’re more technologically sophisticated and therefore wealthier than the average person on the planet.

Nominal economic output per capita in developed countries is roughly three to five times higher than for the world as a whole, so let’s say Bitcoin’s early adopters own, on average, four times the $400, or $1,600, worth of bitcoins. Dividing the current market capitalization of $57 million by this last figure, we obtain a guesstimate of current Bitcoin adoption: around 36,000 – so, in the order of a few dozen thousand individuals worldwide.



[Ed note: post updated on June 2, 2011 to correct typos.]
This seems to be the cusp of a Big New Thing. Looking forward to seeing hysterical government reactions which will provide more attention and fuel the adoption spiral.
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by Simon_Jester »

Glancing over this I see a huge problem that I may be missing the answer to. Are bitcoins really, feasibly, divisible?

(And yes, the article says "yes," but bear with me for a minute)

Now, supposedly there is a strictly limited supply of them (I saw the figure 21 million in the article). That being the case, unless bitcoins are infinitely divisible, they are not suitable for use as a world currency, because there are simply not enough of them to go around.

Imagine if the unit of currency was some other indivisible object- say, a chicken. One chicken has value; half of one chicken has only limited short-term value as a foodstuff. Ignore issues of portability and storage with chickens.

Ask yourself, could we do business with only 21 million chickens in the world? If there were only a few hundred thousand people in the world, we probably could; if there were a few million, maybe. But in a world populated by six going on seven billion people, that works out to something like one chicken per 300 to 350 people. The chicken could never become a basis for trade, because there wouldn't be enough of the damn things to go around- at any one time, over 99% of all people would own zero chickens and thus have zero buying power.

You see the problem. Now consider the solution.

At the moment, there are something on the close order of 10 trillion US dollars in circulation depending on how we define the money supply. There are parts of the world where a laborer's wages work out to something like a dollar a day if not less. The bitcoin is pitched as being a viable alternate currency for countries like Zimbabwe, which is simply not practical unless the minimum unit of currency is significantly smaller than one US dollar. Otherwise, commerce becomes impractical because the average worker only has a small integer number of currency-units at any one time and cannot afford to make purchases with them. For the US dollar this need can easily be met using decimal currency- the penny.

There are, by the above standard, something on the close order of one quadrillion pennies in the world.

However, let us be generous, we could probably have a functional currency in which the dollar (today) was divided only into tenths, not hundredths, which would reduce the number of 'currency units' in circulation to the close order of 100 trillion dimes. For a person in a developed country one dime is a trivial, probably negligible sum of money; for a person in a very poor country it is a small but significant fraction of their daily income.

Subject to the limit of 21 million bitcoins roughly equal in value to the dime, the "microbitcoin" gives us 21 trillion minimal units of currency, enough for the bitcoin to begin to occupy a niche as a global currency- if not on par with the dollar or the euro, at least on par with other less ubiquitous currencies. For the bitcoin to become a really useful currency on a wide global scale, like the dollar and euro, we really want to subdivide those microbitcoins once again, into tenths of a microbitcoin, allowing a supply of 210 trillion minimal currency units, roughly comparable to the number of dimes in the world.

We can also look at another global currency, the euro, where again there are on the close order of ten trillion euros in circulation, and thus something on the close order of 100 trillion tenths-of-a-euro in the world. Again, 210 trillion tenths-of-a-millionth-of-a-bitcoin would give us roughly the right number of currency units.
____________

I see a few major problems with doing this, though. One is that we have now subdivided each bitcoin into ten million dime-equivalents: a single bitcoin is worth a million dollars, and the pieces of that bitcoin reside in up to ten million pairs of hands scattered around the globe.

Now, as I understand it, each bitcoin is represented by a long number followed by a decimal point and a string of digits to denote which fraction of that particular bitcoin you own. Which means that we have a serious problem on our hands, unless I am missing something important.

Consider the bitcoin 2871058320215408246612341895 (a more or less arbitrary string of numbers I just typed out off the top of my head). Let this number be denoted as "X" for brevity from now on. Each fragmentary bitcoin has a number like X.1234567. Given how currency works, I will own only a tiny minority of all the fragmentary bitcoins made from any given bitcoin.

If the bitcoin is a global currency on par with the dollar or euro, this implies that the bitcoin X must be subdivided into ten million fragments, each roughly on par with the value of a dime or a tenth-euro coin. But the problem is that the number X is known to everyone who holds the bitcoin. I can look at my fragmentary bitcoin X.1234567 and say "ah-ha, there exists a bitcoin numbered X!"

While someone who does not own their own bitcoin currency could not feasibly do this, especially if we tack on a much longer string of digits for X, someone who owns actual bitcoins can. This means that while counterfeiting is practically impossible- you cannot make a fake bitcoin number- it is still possible to pay for things using bitcoin number-strings you don't actually own, having deduced those numbers from the numbers of the fractional bitcoins you do own.
___________

I'm probably missing something important, though. Could someone who knows more economics or cryptography fill me in?
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Xisiqomelir
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by Xisiqomelir »

Simon, I don't know enough about monetary theory to really answer your first question. However, I think even if Bitcoin's limited supply affects its viability as a medium of exchange, that same constraint will have positive benefits for its use as a store of value.

I can answer your second question, though. Bitcoin has a chain of "blocks", each of which represent hash-based proof-of-work. This is the main antifraud component of Bitcoin's design. The "genesis block" was the first block generated by the Bitcoin network, and each subsequent block must be connected to it through the chain. Blocks must contain the hash of the previous block in the chain, and miners must build onto the most recent block of the longest valid chain.

So, in your example, you couldn't spend bitcoin X.2369 which you don't own, because the transaction by which you received it wouldn't exist in the historical record of the block chain, and your counterparty would reject the transaction as invalid.

Block chains
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by Cecelia5578 »

Xisiqomelir wrote: So, what's of interest about an anonymous, P2P, encrypted, limited-quantity (there will not be more than 21 million Bitcoins ever), alternative virtual currency invented by a (possibly) Japanese man? Aside from everything in the preceding sentence, now that Bitcoin is hitting the mainstream, it is exploding in value.

Because of Bitcoin's features, there are multiple constituencies interested in it. Drugdealers love that it's anonymous. Libertarians love that there is no central bank to adjust the hard-capped supply. And speculators love the 300,000% gains mentioned in the link in para 2.

From the linked Gawker article:
Update: Jeff Garzik, a member of the Bitcoin core development team, says in an email that bitcoin is not as anonymous as the denizens of Silk Road would like to believe. He explains that because all Bitcoin transactions are recorded in a public log, though the identities of all the parties are anonymous, law enforcement could use sophisticated network analysis techniques to parse the transaction flow and track down individual Bitcoin users.

"Attempting major illicit transactions with bitcoin, given existing statistical analysis techniques deployed in the field by law enforcement, is pretty damned dumb," he says.
Libertarian rec drug users who work in IT (whew, how bout some cliches there!) will have to get their fixes elsewhere, it looks like.
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Simon_Jester
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ah. Hmm.

For a global currency, individual units of the currency will change hands quite frequently- I spend a dollar today, the store spends it two or three days from now, it goes into a bank which bounces it around the global financial system a dozen times in half an hour for all I know... you get the idea.

A piece of currency which, by definition, contains a transaction record that gets a piece added to it every time it changes hands is going to develop a very long chunk of history, very fast.

Or have I misunderstood again? Is the history of a bitcoin contained within the number, such that the physical length of the number scales with the length of its transaction history, or is the number simply altered using an iterative algorithm of some sort every time it changes hands?

If the latter, I assume that a bitcoin's authenticity as something you received legitimately is determined by looking at whether it has the characteristic marks of something which was generated from a valid genesis block via iteration of the algorithm.
__________

Another, unrelated problem I see with this is that there is no responsible authority with an ability to govern the supply of bitcoins. This can become a problem under some circumstances. What if whatever agency generates bitcoins suddenly decides to create another several million of the things? Unless that's mathematically impossible (it might be), this would have serious consequences for anyone who accumulated bitcoin currency in good faith.

This can happen with normal currencies, but a normal currency suffering from hyperinflation will have been brought to such a state by some government. The government can be held responsible more easily than an anonymous person on the Internet.

Likewise, just as the bitcoin supply could potentially be manipulated by unaccountable individuals, the bitcoin supply can't be manipulated as a tool of economic management by the governments responsible for national economies- which is good if those nations would use the money supply irresponsibly, but bad if we're suffering from a lack of useful instruments to keep the economy under control.

Again, I'm not saying these are insoluble problems, but they do come very readily to mind as obstacles for the use of the bitcoin as a global currency.
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by Starglider »

Simon_Jester wrote:Another, unrelated problem I see with this is that there is no responsible authority with an ability to govern the supply of bitcoins. This can become a problem under some circumstances. What if whatever agency generates bitcoins suddenly decides to create another several million of the things?
There is no such agency. Bitcoins are generated in a distributed fashion. The upper limit on the number that can exist is hardcoded into the software. To expand the monetary base, you would have to convince every user of the software to upgrade to the new version and accept the new coins. This is equivalent to forking the project and creating a parallel set of coins; people will not give the 'extended id space' coins the same value as the original coins, in fact if this system were to become popular then such newly created coins would have the same value as monopoly money.

I don't think this will have much success in the forseeable future, given the huge and powerful forces supporting the status quo, but it's an interesting design exercise.
which is good if those nations would use the money supply irresponsibly, but bad if we're suffering from a lack of useful instruments to keep the economy under control.
The notion of controlling economies is highly dubious to start with, given the poor state of economic theory and the incompetence and corruption of all those who attempt to do so. Even if you are dead set on engaging in this dubious practice, printing money is a spectacularly bad mechanism to do so.
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by Xisiqomelir »

Simon_Jester wrote:Ah. Hmm.

For a global currency, individual units of the currency will change hands quite frequently- I spend a dollar today, the store spends it two or three days from now, it goes into a bank which bounces it around the global financial system a dozen times in half an hour for all I know... you get the idea.

A piece of currency which, by definition, contains a transaction record that gets a piece added to it every time it changes hands is going to develop a very long chunk of history, very fast.

Or have I misunderstood again? Is the history of a bitcoin contained within the number, such that the physical length of the number scales with the length of its transaction history, or is the number simply altered using an iterative algorithm of some sort every time it changes hands?

If the latter, I assume that a bitcoin's authenticity as something you received legitimately is determined by looking at whether it has the characteristic marks of something which was generated from a valid genesis block via iteration of the algorithm.
Simon, I think you will find a complete understanding of how Bitcoins are "mined" out of the network, and how the block chain works on the Bitcoin FAQ I link in the OP, as well as this pdf of the original bitcoin whitepaper by "Nakamoto Satoshi".
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Re: Bitcoin

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Simon_Jester wrote:Glancing over this I see a huge problem that I may be missing the answer to. Are bitcoins really, feasibly, divisible?
Yes. The actual rote unit is the 'Satoshi' which is .00000001 bitcoins. They can, in theory, shift the decimal place to the right. I'm hoping they do - I made a bunch of them last year and am waiting for peak libertarian gullibility, which won't be reached for awhile.
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by Simon_Jester »

All right, thank you gentlemen for clearing up some misunderstandings. It is an interesting design exercise; I just worry about the security issues and whether it works as well as the dreamers expect. We've had a lot of schemes for reforming economics as we know it over the past 200 years; it's a difficult thing to do. I'm sure the Internet Age has the power to do it, but I'm always dubious about individual proposals because of the track record of visionaries.
Xeriar wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Glancing over this I see a huge problem that I may be missing the answer to. Are bitcoins really, feasibly, divisible?
Yes. The actual rote unit is the 'Satoshi' which is .00000001 bitcoins. They can, in theory, shift the decimal place to the right. I'm hoping they do - I made a bunch of them last year and am waiting for peak libertarian gullibility, which won't be reached for awhile.
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by Xisiqomelir »

Simon_Jester wrote:All right, thank you gentlemen for clearing up some misunderstandings. It is an interesting design exercise; I just worry about the security issues and whether it works as well as the dreamers expect. We've had a lot of schemes for reforming economics as we know it over the past 200 years; it's a difficult thing to do. I'm sure the Internet Age has the power to do it, but I'm always dubious about individual proposals because of the track record of visionaries.
No it is good to be critical, this could easily have been the 21st Century Tulipmania were it not for the extreme cleverness of the design.
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Re: Bitcoin

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Man, the wankers who scream how this will threaten governments are hilarious.

If the technology pans out, guess what: any government can just make their own and institute it as their official currency. And, of course, it doesn't elliminate the core causes of inflation and financial crises - because of the very nature of how credit and debt works, those will still be quite possible. The financial system will also work pretty much as it did: banks do not exist because of the nature of the currency, but because of the nature of economic interactions themselves. A world working on cryptocurrency will still need credit, it will still have financial instruments and global financial markets. It doesn't matter what precisely credit operates on: you can issue promissory notes on cattle, seashells, gold and hell even dirt.
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by Skgoa »

I remain highly skeptical. Currencies require trust in them and I don't see most people trusting something they won't be able to understand. Also, if bitcoins can be "mined" through computations... isn't there a big incentive for an entity with a huge amount of processing power to come in and computer as many bitcoins as possible as fast as possible?


Well, I have downloaded the client and am looking into mining. Just because I don't think this will revolutionize anything doesn't mean I am ready to leave any free* money on the table. :D


* my computer is running all the time anyways and I pay a fixed price for my electricity
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by PeZook »

Skgoa wrote:I remain highly skeptical. Currencies require trust in them and I don't see most people trusting something they won't be able to understand. Also, if bitcoins can be "mined" through computations... isn't there a big incentive for an entity with a huge amount of processing power to come in and computer as many bitcoins as possible as fast as possible?
Yes, but remember this sort of currency doesn't have to be this specific implementation. A government could easily implement a different solution and just institute THAT. In fact, a government's backing would lead to faster adoption...just like any other currency.

There is nothig inherent about the technology that makes it somehow threatening to the status quo.
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by Skgoa »

While I don't disagree with you, what is the relevance to what I was talking about?
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by PeZook »

Skgoa wrote:While I don't disagree with you, what is the relevance to what I was talking about?
Sorry, I migth've been a bit unclear. I mean that while bitcoin could be easily erased from history by a governmnet or other big player getting annoyed (they could either mine out all the coins with sheer computing power or just buy them all up), future implementations are not necessarily that vulnerable, especially if the technology is adopted and in use by governments.
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Re: Bitcoin

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Lets say I'm using a computer for my bitcoins. Being lazy and/or a bit paranoid I haven't got any backups. Something happens (say, a house fire) that destroys all information on that computer. Have I just lost all my bitcoins for good ?

What about cases where, in the time between the backups and destruction of data, I've traded away some and received others so that, while my total balance is roughly the same both times, the actual bitcoins used are different ?
How often would I need to make backups to prevent this problem ?

The anonymity is also a worry for me because it means that, when someone scams someone else out of bitcoins, or infects their computer with malware to steal them, identifying the person who took them is going to be harder. Especially in cases where the bitcoins never leave the country, meaning some of the usual warning signs (asking you to send money through Western Union or a foreign bank) don't come up.
But at the same time, people with the capability to do the "sophisticated network analysis" will now know more about my transactions by looking at the public log, compared to my current bank records which the bank keeps secret.

Can bitcoins work with some form of physical currency ?
Because when you owe friends a small amount of money, being able to just give them the cash is very convenient.

Even if you ignore my complaints, do bitcoins have any advantage that outweighs the cost of a business having to handle payments in two currencies ?
Lets say it's a small to medium business that has no dealings outside the country it operates in. Because I don't see how bitcoins can take off if they don't switch.
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by eion »

An interesting technical demonstration, and little else.

Any government that felt threatened by bitcoins could simply pass a laws stating any contracts dealing with <insert general description of peer-to-peer, non-legal tender e.g. bitcoins here> are voidable by either party for any reason. This would prevent any major transactions from being conducted using said p2p currency since there would be no guarantee of delivery of goods.

These seem like this year’s Lindendollars.
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by Stormin »

Bitcoins are about as 'money' as limited edition baseball cards. There's a set number which is going to go down because of attrition* and some people think they are cool enough that they can be exchanged for stuff to some people. No government is ever going to feel threatened by bitcoins or do anything about them.

So far I earned 0.02 bitcoins and it was somewhat amusing but it's not worth the wear and tear on my machine to earn them or the electricity bill for leaving the machine going all night.


*Lose your wallet and whatever coins you had are lost from the system forever.
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by Dalton »

Reminds me a lot of Neal Stephenson's vision of the future. Combine The Great Simoleon Caper with the idea of a data haven in Cryptonomicon.
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by Winston Blake »

Stumbled across this recently:
Underground Website Lets You Buy Any Drug Imaginable
Making small talk with your pot dealer sucks. Buying cocaine can get you shot. What if you could buy and sell drugs online like books or light bulbs? Now you can: Welcome to Silk Road.

About three weeks ago, the U.S. Postal Service delivered an ordinary envelope to Mark’s door. Inside was a tiny plastic bag containing 10 tabs of LSD. “If you had opened it, unless you were looking for it, you wouldn’t have even noticed,” Mark told us in a phone interview.

Mark, a software developer, had ordered the 100 micrograms of acid through a listing on the online marketplace Silk Road. He found a seller with lots of good feedback who seemed to know what they were talking about, added the acid to his digital shopping cart and hit “check out.” He entered his address and paid the seller 50 Bitcoins — untraceable digital currency — worth around $150. Four days later, the drugs (sent from Canada) arrived at his house.

[...]

Silk Road and Bitcoins could herald a black market eCommerce revolution. But anonymity cuts both ways. How long until a DEA agent sets up a fake Silk Road account and starts sending SWAT teams instead of LSD to the addresses she gets? As Silk Road inevitably spills out of the bitcoin bubble, its drug-swapping utopians will meet a harsh reality no anonymizing network can blur.
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by sketerpot »

bilateralrope wrote:Lets say I'm using a computer for my bitcoins. Being lazy and/or a bit paranoid I haven't got any backups. Something happens (say, a house fire) that destroys all information on that computer. Have I just lost all my bitcoins for good ?
Yes. The same holds true if you have cash money that burns. To prevent this, consider using a really fine-grained secure backup service -- if bitcoin ever becomes mainstream, then I'm sure there will be trivial services for making sure they don't vanish. The technical issue here is not hard.
Can bitcoins work with some form of physical currency ?
Because when you owe friends a small amount of money, being able to just give them the cash is very convenient.
Like any currency, bitcoins can be exchanged for another form (e.g. a currency with physical cash) if there's someone willing to accept one in exchange for the other. There are several bitcoin--dollar exchanges out there, which seems to be the most straightforward way of accomplishing what you want.
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by bilateralrope »

sketerpot wrote:
bilateralrope wrote:Lets say I'm using a computer for my bitcoins. Being lazy and/or a bit paranoid I haven't got any backups. Something happens (say, a house fire) that destroys all information on that computer. Have I just lost all my bitcoins for good ?
Yes. The same holds true if you have cash money that burns.
The difference is that if my cash burns, I still have most of my money sitting in my bank account. For bitcoins to replace existing currencies, people will need to convert all their money over to them.
To prevent this, consider using a really fine-grained secure backup service -- if bitcoin ever becomes mainstream, then I'm sure there will be trivial services for making sure they don't vanish. The technical issue here is not hard.
To prevent people stealing your bitcoins from this third party service, you will need to be able to prove who you are to the service. Which means the anonymity is gone as the service knows who you are and, by comparing when your balance changes to the public transaction log, what transactions you have made. Which makes this third party service sound a lot like an existing bank.
Can bitcoins work with some form of physical currency ?
Because when you owe friends a small amount of money, being able to just give them the cash is very convenient.
Like any currency, bitcoins can be exchanged for another form (e.g. a currency with physical cash) .
Wouldn't that reliance mean that bitcoins can't replace an existing currency ?
Lets say you owe a friend a small amount of money, around $20 US. Which of these options would you prefer:
- Using an existing currency: Take the money out of your wallet or get it from an ATM. Then give it to him.
- Using bitcoins: Convert some of your bitcoins to cash. Give him the cash. Hope that the exchange rate is stable enough that when he converts it back to bitcoins you have paid approximately what you owed him after taking the fees of the place doing the exchange into account.
- Using either: Get his bank/bitcoin account details (which he might not have committed to memory) and deposit them directly.

My position here is that I can't anything in bitcoins that makes them sufficiently superior to existing first world currencies that they stand a chance of people using bitcoins more than their countries currency. Which means that I don't see them expanding from niche uses without government intervention that supports bitcoins.
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Re: Bitcoin

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bilateralrope wrote:The difference is that if my cash burns, I still have most of my money sitting in my bank account. For bitcoins to replace existing currencies, people will need to convert all their money over to them.
Your argument does not hold. It assumes all value it put in Bitcoins. Consider the following change to your argument.

"The difference is that if my computer burns, I still have most of my money sitting in my bank account."

Bitcoins are best described as a form of cash. They are not credit and they are not a bank promising it holds your money. Undoubtedly there will be banks that spring up to hold bitcoins, but that counter acts some of their current popular value. That becomes trackable.

Your money is in whatever form you wish it to be. Say you keep most of it in your bank account. Want to make a purchase? You can write a check. You can withdraw cash. You can debit it from your account. You can use credit card. You can use a check card. You can have paypal deduct it from your account. You can direct pay from your account to another company.

Now you have a new option. Instead of withdrawing in the form of cash, you can convert it over to bitcoins.

Your money is stored whever you decide to keep it. You spend it how you want.
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by sketerpot »

bilateralrope wrote:
To prevent this, consider using a really fine-grained secure backup service -- if bitcoin ever becomes mainstream, then I'm sure there will be trivial services for making sure they don't vanish. The technical issue here is not hard.
To prevent people stealing your bitcoins from this third party service, you will need to be able to prove who you are to the service. Which means the anonymity is gone as the service knows who you are and, by comparing when your balance changes to the public transaction log, what transactions you have made. Which makes this third party service sound a lot like an existing bank.
Wrong! Consider this hypothetical scenario (RAR!):

Someone offers an online service which will store, on several redundant servers, any data you like -- including bitcoins. The data is stored encrypted with a key known only to you, along with a hash to verify that the contents have not been meddled with. Even if I look at your files, they will be nothing but unintelligible gibberish unless I know your password. There's no need for you to prove your identity, and your anonymity need not be compromised.

Oh, and this isn't hypothetical. I could write the software for this and get it running in an hour or so, and the monthly server cost would be pennies.
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Re: Bitcoin

Post by Simon_Jester »

Dalton wrote:Reminds me a lot of Neal Stephenson's vision of the future. Combine The Great Simoleon Caper with the idea of a data haven in Cryptonomicon.
Yeah, I'm not seeing it- it hinges so heavily on the assumption that you can enjoy the real-life fruits of virtual-life anonymity and economic exchange, without real-life governments noticing.
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