Time Lords vs. Xeelee

[ChosenOne54]

So this battle pits the Time Lords, at their prime, against the almighty Xeelee.

For those who do not know, the Time Lords are an incredibly advanced race from Doctor Who, who have pretty much mastery over Time Travel, along with other feats such as having created black holes.

For more information on their ships etc.:
http://www.whoniverse.net/tardis/104form.php
http://www.whoniverse.net/tardis/wartardis.php
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Time_Lord

Can the Time Lords win this?

[Ahriman238]

I suspect you will find far more people here who are unaware of the Xelee Sequence, than those who are ignorant of Dr Who.

So, the Bayonic Lords versus the Time Lords? Both have extensive access to time-travel. The Time Lords have gone to some effort to secure themselves from temporal interference, while the Xeelee went back and created themselves. Both can casually destroy stars. Both can access alternate universes with some difficulty. Both wield power far in excess of a Type III civilization.

Ultimately, the Time Lords were destroyed by their own arrogance, the Daleks and especially the intervention of the Doctor. The Xeelee were destroyed by sun-eating Birds, and had over 13 billion years to wage war on them, or devise alternate solutions. That tips the scale quite a bit.

Time Lords destroy the universe and ascend for the win. If the Xeelee have a million years forewarning, which they might (they're always receiving notes from their future selves) they may be able to escape the Final Sanction. Maybe in the next universe they can finally live in peace, free of sun-eaters and pesky humans?

[avatarxprime]

Yeah, but the Photino Birds held numeric superiorty, vast to the point of stupidity numerical superiority such that even in fighting for that long the Xeelee were unable to win the war. The Birds were also able to fling about galaxies as weapons. The Time Lords hold no such numerical superiority and have not displayed that kind of brute power as far as I know. Even the Last Great Time War is described simply as eliminating planets and species in seconds. If we take that at the extreme of obliterating star systems at a go with their weapons, that sill doesn't equal fragging an entire galaxy. Now the Time Lords can certainly cause that kind of damage, but it's usually through some technobabble device that messes with time and space.

Also, the Xeelee are used to fighting against an enemy that equals if not surpasses themselves while the Time Lords tend to be happy with their own superiority and have no real combat skills save for anomalies like the Doctor. Still, if allowed to unleash the Final Sanction the Time Lords will undoubtedly win and will be free to remake the Universe in their own image, well, more so in their own image.

Oh, and as to the Xeelee bootstrapping themselves against the Time Lords, won't that only be allowed if the Time Lords themselves decide to allow it? Without Time Lord intervention any kind of paradox generating time travel results in the Reapers coming out and "sterilizing the wound." That would certainly not be a pleasant experience for the Xeelee.

[NecronLord]

"For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the End, of Time, Itself!"

Final Sanction is implied to be something very quick, at least in comparison to the Xeelee's billion-year war. Given that Gallifrey can also be moved (same episode) it would take little effort or imagination to retire somewhere out of the way and blow up the universe.

The Birds were also able to fling about galaxies as weapons. The Time Lords hold no such numerical superiority and have not displayed that kind of brute power as far as I know. Even the Last Great Time War is described simply as eliminating planets and species in seconds. If we take that at the extreme of obliterating star systems at a go with their weapons, that sill doesn't equal fragging an entire galaxy.

Actually, in 'The Etra Prime Incident' (AKA The Apocalypse Element) an audio-play cited by RTD as one of the first engagements of the Time War, the Time Lords accellerate time over an entire galaxy, to stop a dalek weapon from spreading across the entire universe and wiping everything out. This is peacetime, it's a fair bet that more-militant Time Lords can do worse.

In an Eigth Doctor novel, Time Lord war weapons are described in one future war as:

‘It’s an insult,’ Homunculette babbled. ‘The weapons of the High Council are legendary. We’ve made defensive arrays the size of star systems, we’ve taken apart whole galaxies...’

They can certainly operate on that kind of scale, when they want to.

Oh, and as to the Xeelee bootstrapping themselves against the Time Lords, won't that only be allowed if the Time Lords themselves decide to allow it? Without Time Lord intervention any kind of paradox generating time travel results in the Reapers coming out and "sterilizing the wound." That would certainly not be a pleasant experience for the Xeelee.

One generally assumes that both parties' stuff works as normal. However, I don't think even a Closed Timelike Curve will help the Xeelee if they're just going to get blasted with the Final Sanction from some hidden fortress.

[ChosenOne54]

Yeah, but the Photino Birds held numeric superiorty, vast to the point of stupidity numerical superiority such that even in fighting for that long the Xeelee were unable to win the war. The Birds were also able to fling about galaxies as weapons. The Time Lords hold no such numerical superiority and have not displayed that kind of brute power as far as I know. Even the Last Great Time War is described simply as eliminating planets and species in seconds.

Actually, type 104 and 105 War Tardises are capable of erasing entire solar systems from Time and Space seemingly easily.

http://www.whoniverse.net/tardis/104form.php

[mr friendly guy]

If the Time Lords had any sense of strategy they would simply move Gallifrey to an alternate universe and launch attacks from there, preferably before the Xeelee can create their Great Ring. Its clear Gallifrey can be moved in short notice and that prior to the TL's extinction travel between multiverses was relatively easy according to the Doctor.

Of course these are the Time Lords, so their strategy would consist of destroying the universe and ascending for the win when the war looks to be stalemated or losing.

Now if the TL somehow could get hold of knowledge from the 11 th Doctor, they could try the reboot the universe strategy using the Pandorica (assuming they can't build it, just steal it) while hiding elsewhere. I think that type of strategy would wipe out the Photino Birds as well.

[NecronLord]

Some of the information in those things about those TARDISes comes from non-liscenced sources. They're largely unknown. They are mentioned in lisenced books, and what we do know is that they're externally humanoid, have single weapons systems the size of 'small moons' and similar things. But I don't think there's anything like that in the canon.

[ChosenOne54]

What I don't understand was this quote:
"This is only the furthest edge of the Time War. But at its heart millions die every second. Lost in bloodlust and insanity. With Time itself resurrecting them to find new ways of dying. Over and over again."

From End of Time part 2. So, apparently, millions died every second, but were continually resurrected to keep fighting/dying? Anyone have any ideas on what this quote may mean?

[FaxModem1]

I assumed that was what a Time Lock was. Basically a groundhog day loop in which they go through the same battle over and over again.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That time itself within the heart of the war is truely and utterly fucked. Cause and effect suddenly have no meaning and stuff no longer happens the way you expect it to.

The Doctor did mention some of the nastier shite that emerged in the last days of the war, such as the Skaro Degradations and the Could-Have-Been King and his army of Never-weres.

This may explain why the war was time locked; to protect the rest of the universe from the truly time-shattering events.

[CaptainChewbacca]

If the Time Lords had any sense of strategy they would simply move Gallifrey to an alternate universe and launch attacks from there, preferably before the Xeelee can create their Great Ring. Its clear Gallifrey can be moved in short notice and that prior to the TL's extinction travel between multiverses was relatively easy according to the Doctor.

Parallel universes are incredibly difficult to access in Who, and the first time it happened was a complete accident. Later, repeated interdimensional travel had rapid and serious consequences for the universe using it, and the barriers between dimensions were permanently closed.

[Darth Nostril]

They are now extremely difficult to reach, the Doctor states in that episode it was a lot easier when the Time Lords were still around.

[NecronLord]

They are now extremely difficult to reach, the Doctor states in that episode it was a lot easier when the Time Lords were still around.

Quite so.

[Serafina]

Which actually means that the Timelords are quite superior to the Xeelee in that regard. After all, that implies that they altered the fundamental structure of space-time.

Also, Timelord technology could allow them to do what the Xeelee sought to do - survive into the next universe. While the Void-ship was Dalek technology, both sides are on a pretty similar technological footing, so it's quite conceivable that the Time Lords could build one as well.


The only advantage the Xeelee have is their massive scale in resources and manpower. As NecronLord shows, the Timelords are probably quite capable to go to such scales as well - in fact the bits about the Time War imply that they fought massive wars by proxy. It was pretty clear that the millions dying every second were not Timelords, and we know that other species were allowed to take sides in the Time War.

The reason why the Time Lords do not generally have giant armies or stellar superstructures is quite simple:
They were a non-interventionist society for a long time, and they don't need any of that in order to be the most powerful species in the universe. After all, they have many ways to negate any numerical superiority.

[Batman]

Unless I misremember the Void Ship was Time Lord technology used to imprison the Daleks

[NecronLord]

Really it's my understanding that the Xeeleeverse's more impressive things - the Great Attractor for example - work on an admirable scale of time, billions of years. It doesn't help if some asshole can walk up and blow up the universe around you in a few years though.

I actually have the Xeelee omnibus sitting on my desk in the 'in' pile at the minute, in fact, but I've yet to get around to it. Wish I could get Vacuum Diagrams though.

[NecronLord]

Unless I misremember the Void Ship was Time Lord technology used to imprison the Daleks

The Void Ship was a Dalek construct. The Doctor had never seen one before, but was familiar with the concept enough to know it by the radiation it gave off, so presumably the Time Lords or some other race he hangs out with, have explored the idea in depth.

The Genesis Ark was the Time Lord device; the Daleks placed it inside a 5-dalek (one presumes) Void Ship, to allow millions to escape.

[Serafina]

Unless I misremember the Void Ship was Time Lord technology used to imprison the Daleks

The Ark (the actual prison) that was being transported in the Void Ship was clearly Time Lord technology. The origin of the Void Ship itself is not mentioned, but it think it's pretty likely to be of Dalek origin.

Edit: Damn, beaten
And again - it is not explicitly stated, but as NecronLord explained there is strong indication that the Void Ship is a dalek design.

[Batman]

Very well, I stand corrected then.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I am not so sure the Time Lords could build a Void ship. The Doctor did say this:

"What's a void ship?"
"It's impossible for one"

Now admittedly "impossible" was a word that Te threw around with wild abandon, usually to describe something that self-evidentaly waspossible, as in, it's staring him in the face.

So the Doctor considers a Void Ship an impossible construct.

[Stark]

Don't be ridiculous; this is obviously in context. He wasn't aware any were built, and everyone he considers capable of that level of engineering was utterly destroyed. The void ship was so not impossible its existence tipped the Doctor (and the viewer) off that it was almost certainly the Daleks in there.

[Darth Nostril]

The Time Lords didn't need giant armies because they simply went back in time and made sure their enemies never existed in the first place.
They were non-interventionist by the simple rationale that they had made sure there was nothing they needed to interfere in left. You might argue 'apart from the Daleks', but they did send the Doctor to Skaro to prevent the creation of the Daleks or at least modify their development, so they still continued with that policy if in a less draconian manner.

The Daleks Void-ship was impressive but it appeared that there was only one, whereas the Doctors statement implied that the TL zipped between universes with near impunity. I'm wondering whether the Doctors assertion it was easier back then is due to power sources, the source of the TLs power was The Eye of Harmony, wasn't there a link from the Eye to every Tardis? With Gallifrey destroyed and the Eye with it the Doctors Tardis has to recharge herself by feeding on Rift energy in Cardiff, the accidental inter-universal trip to Petes World drained all her power, nearly killing Sexy.

With the Time Lords at the peak of their power they have the ability to cross universes at will and travel as far back as the Big Bang, this may not end well for the Xeelee.

[inviz345]

the doctor would be low on the timelord side they built it why would the daleks build prison ships. the doctor built the moment a bigger demat gun. would the Xeelee be able to enter the votex.

[doom3607]

Considering all the crazy-ass crap the Time Lords could do, they'd probably just go back to five minutes after the Big Bang and shoot the Xeelee then. End of problem, since AFAIK the Xeelee couldn't time travel anywhere near that far back to stop them. When the humans were cleaning them out of the Milky Way, they only ever went something like a few years, maybe centuries at the outside, in either direction- again, AFAIK and IIRC.

[Parallax]

Gallifrey can certainly be moved, sort of. During The War in Heaven (happened in the novels, a war against The Enemy, which sort of ended up not happening but it did ... damn, it was a confusing mess) the Time Lords made perfect copies of Gallifrey and placed them in different parts of SpaceTime. Each Gallifrey was under the commend of someone different so that the Enemy had multiple different tactics being used against them at the same time (they placed one Gallifrey under the commend of The Master).
Also, if the location of one Gallifrey was found (and possibly destroyed) then they had more Gallifreys to go or could replace it again using the original technique.

This was the same storyline where they broke into Rassilon's original workshop to unleash forbidden technology ('The Slaughterhouse'), developed WarTARDIS', and started grabbing technology and weapons from Gallifrey's own future in a bid to win.

And they were still losing.

But the whole thing got changed a lot since, originally, the first casualty of the War In Heaven was the Doctor himself. But then the current Doctor changed events by detonating his TARDIS above Gallifrey (which blew it completely up but he did it to make sure a Universe shattering war never happened) and he absorbed the zip file version of the Matrix into his head. Or something.