A future without disposable plastic bags

[Broomstick]

So... What happens if the single-use guys win? They systematically go after everyone else? Then after consumers who make their own reusable bags? Mandate use of single-use bags?

They make an inferior product - they don't hold as much as many other bags, they are prone to splitting and dumping their contents, they're uncomfortable to hold.... I'm not sure why they're even as popular as they are. If demand drops that's not the competition's problem, or at least it shouldn't be.

Split from the discussion on the lawsuit against Chicobags. - Lagmonster

[PeZook]

They're popular because shops distribute them for free. That's literally the only reason - you don't have to carry your own bag when going shopping, you get one for free.

All you need to start reducing their usage is make people pay for them. In Poland many stores charge small fees for the bags since social ad campaigns convinced them to do so, and the usage dropped sharply. IIRC it was something like 25%.

The whole things is hilarious because in several European countries plastic bag makers also tried to fight, lost and then converted their production to biodegradable bags. Is Europe more capitalist than the US?

[Broomstick]

The problem with "biodegradable" plastic bags (which I assume is what you are referring to) is two-fold:

1) They only degrade if exposed to the elements. Bury them in a landfill they last nearly forever.

2) They degrade into teeny to microscopic plastic bits, instead of degrading into something else like, say, paper bags do. This means the plastic is still out there, still being inadvertently consumed by various critters, even if it's no longer choking turtles and killing birds that eat it.

This is one reason I favor paper bags - when I toss one on the compost heap it turns into natural fertilizer and winds up recycled into food. Of course, I'll be the first to admit some of my paper bags do wind up in the landfill for one reason or another, I'm not perfect. Also, paper isn't the ideal solution in all cases, either.

[PeZook]

The problem with "biodegradable" plastic bags (which I assume is what you are referring to) is two-fold:

1) They only degrade if exposed to the elements. Bury them in a landfill they last nearly forever.

2) They degrade into teeny to microscopic plastic bits, instead of degrading into something else like, say, paper bags do. This means the plastic is still out there, still being inadvertently consumed by various critters, even if it's no longer choking turtles and killing birds that eat it.

Neither of this is actually true ; The bags in question are fully compostable and do in fact decompose, rather than just degrade.

While national regulations vary, the proposal being considred by the European Comission is to ban all bags that do not conform to EN 13432, which stipulates the material has to degrade by 90% within 180 days in a commercial composting unit.

The brilliance of this solution is that it is a 100% effective replacement for standard plastic bags ; Customers don't have to change their ingrained habits to use those. So you just replace them in stores (by, say, reducing taxes or subsidizing their production) and voila, the problem is busted (well, massively reduced).

Due to the nature of the production process, making those bags also reduces energy and oil use.

[Molyneux]

The only problem I can see with the decline and fall of plastic bags is: what the heck are dog owners supposed to use to pick up poop? I can't think of any household bag material that's nearly as easy to acquire or impermeable.

[folti78]

The only problem I can see with the decline and fall of plastic bags is: what the heck are dog owners supposed to use to pick up poop? I can't think of any household bag material that's nearly as easy to acquire or impermeable.

Here in Hungary you can buy packs plastic bags for that, either in pet stores or the household items section of other stores. Some municipialities also installed thrashcans with bag dispensers in places where dog walkers are expected, like in and around public parks. The bag dispensers are filled up frequently by the sanitation workers.

The bags themselves may or may not be biodegradable, I don't know.

[PeZook]

It's unlikely polyethylene plastic bags will ever go away completely, but their use simply has to massively reduced. It's absurd and wasteful what stuff they're used for right now, but dog poop probabl only accounts for a fraction of a percent of uses.

[Lagmonster]

Since two people have decided to chip in about the 'make 'em pay a few cents for a way to encourage a reduction in plastic bag use' idea...

...it doesn't really work. Making it socially wrong to use disposable bags creates a social consequence to pay for the perception of not being 'green'. People don't like paying social prices - it makes us uncomfortable and shame-filled. But by setting a fixed cash price to the transgression, we no longer have to feel the stigma attached to the action. I'd imagine that fines and surcharges are probably more likely to encourage the behaviour to continue at a higher level than it would have by just keeping it free but making it socially unacceptable.

[AMT]

Since two people have decided to chip in about the 'make 'em pay a few cents for a way to encourage a reduction in plastic bag use' idea...

...it doesn't really work. Making it socially wrong to use disposable bags creates a social consequence to pay for the perception of not being 'green'. People don't like paying social prices - it makes us uncomfortable and shame-filled. But by setting a fixed cash price to the transgression, we no longer have to feel the stigma attached to the action. I'd imagine that fines and surcharges are probably more likely to encourage the behaviour to continue at a higher level than it would have by just keeping it free but making it socially unacceptable.

Except as Pezook said, it actually does lower the use, from the experience in his country.

[Norade]

I wouldn't mind seeing something that is a middle ground between a plastic bag and a disposable bag. I use reusable for larger trips, but I'd like to see something that I could use when heading out to grab some junk food at like 4am that isn't plastic.

[Bluewolf]

I don't know Enigma, I wasn't debating you, I was asking of the potential purpose of this tax and thought given you mentioned collars, it may be some sort of anti stray measure.

[Broomstick]

I wouldn't mind seeing something that is a middle ground between a plastic bag and a disposable bag. I use reusable for larger trips, but I'd like to see something that I could use when heading out to grab some junk food at like 4am that isn't plastic.

You know, up until around the time I was 15-20 all the places like that used paper bags. Some of them waxed, some not.

The world got by fine without plastic bags until the 20th Century, we could get by without them if they all disappeared. That's probably why the plastic bag manufacturers are in a lather, they know they're actually optional even if some of the public have forgotten that.

[Norade]

I wouldn't mind seeing something that is a middle ground between a plastic bag and a disposable bag. I use reusable for larger trips, but I'd like to see something that I could use when heading out to grab some junk food at like 4am that isn't plastic.

You know, up until around the time I was 15-20 all the places like that used paper bags. Some of them waxed, some not.

The world got by fine without plastic bags until the 20th Century, we could get by without them if they all disappeared. That's probably why the plastic bag manufacturers are in a lather, they know they're actually optional even if some of the public have forgotten that.

I know there are paperbags even if they aren't as common anymore. They would also make a good option as an intermediate between plastic and reusable, though really plastic bags are just as reusable as anything else.

[The Yosemite Bear]

This sort of extortion is simular to Mobster tactics, suprised they get away with that...

[Lagmonster]

Since two people have decided to chip in about the 'make 'em pay a few cents for a way to encourage a reduction in plastic bag use' idea...

...it doesn't really work. Making it socially wrong to use disposable bags creates a social consequence to pay for the perception of not being 'green'. People don't like paying social prices - it makes us uncomfortable and shame-filled. But by setting a fixed cash price to the transgression, we no longer have to feel the stigma attached to the action. I'd imagine that fines and surcharges are probably more likely to encourage the behaviour to continue at a higher level than it would have by just keeping it free but making it socially unacceptable.

Except as Pezook said, it actually does lower the use, from the experience in his country.

No, kid, pay attention. I said that you might see greater reductions if the cost was social, because once you assign a price tag to something it helps negate the social cost. I didn't say that you wouldn't get any reduction with fines alone.

Video rental stores have had this figured out for years; if you make the cost of a late return a shame-faced customer having to make excuses to an annoyed clerk, people don't enjoy that. But add a surcharge of a buck fifty a day and people can go, "fuck it, I don't have to feel bad. I'll just pay the extension fee in exchange for the convenience I was planning to steal anyway".

[Thanas]

Thread cleaned.

In the future, kindly stay on topic, everybody.

[someone_else]

Here the plastic bags were kinda outlawed (I think it is an european directive or somesuch), although that just means they are uncommon (you find them only in small shops).

Most major places I see adopted Mater-bi shoppers, which is a rather crappy material (while the size is the same as the old bags their carrying capacity is around a half), but fully compostable (and if you forget them somewhere they break up and leave a mess, personal experience).

Smart places started selling also reusable plastic bags at 1-2 euro or so. Very durable (they hold more than your arm can lift), fully washable and respectable. The sales of such bags skyrocketed, and it's easy to see people reusing such bags about anywhere.

Most people leaves a bunch of those bags in the car, "just in case".

[Feil]

For clarification, is this thread talking exclusively about plastic shopping bags, or also about other kinds of plastic bags, like the pint-sized ones with the foldover tops, or zip-lock bags, or plastic garbage bags, etc?

[Soontir C'boath]

No, kid, pay attention. I said that you might see greater reductions if the cost was social, because once you assign a price tag to something it helps negate the social cost. I didn't say that you wouldn't get any reduction with fines alone.

Video rental stores have had this figured out for years; if you make the cost of a late return a shame-faced customer having to make excuses to an annoyed clerk, people don't enjoy that. But add a surcharge of a buck fifty a day and people can go, "fuck it, I don't have to feel bad. I'll just pay the extension fee in exchange for the convenience I was planning to steal anyway".

Then make the fine at a non-enjoyable value to the point where the $1-2 reusable bag is appealing.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I figure that as oil prices are going up, single use plastic will be heading out of existance for more re-usuable/replaceable materials. That said our eco-friendly corperate image in the park, means we have the corn plastic garbage bags that do decompose completely into fertilizer, in a compost bin. Now trying to get them to the metal compost bin before they disintergrate is difficult.

[Simon_Jester]

I figure that as oil prices are going up, single use plastic will be heading out of existance for more re-usuable/replaceable materials. That said our eco-friendly corperate image in the park, means we have the corn plastic garbage bags that do decompose completely into fertilizer, in a compost bin. Now trying to get them to the metal compost bin before they disintergrate is difficult.

I'd think plastic bags are individually so cheap that it will take a long time for them to become uneconomical due to oil prices- they use very small amounts of plastic per bag; it's the aggregate effect that makes them an environmental issue.

[Raxmei]

Around here the way that grocery stores encourage reusable bag use is giving five cent rebates for using them. It's mathematically similar to a nominal fee for using disposables but it's psychologically different because the money's coming from a different direction.

[Kojiro]

Well here in good old South Australia we've had a ban on plastic bags for what, two years now? As far as shopping goes it's just a habit now to take the reusable bags or buy a new one down at the store (which is probably why in the learning phase I got up to about 15 of the things). But it's easy to adapt to and for the most part actually more useful to have such bag around for carting other things I've found. A lot of people still complain, and you can still get plastic bags (bio degradable ones) for a nominal fee if you so choose. On the whole though it's a change I don't particularly mind.

[His Divine Shadow]

The problem with "biodegradable" plastic bags (which I assume is what you are referring to) is two-fold:

1) They only degrade if exposed to the elements. Bury them in a landfill they last nearly forever.

2) They degrade into teeny to microscopic plastic bits, instead of degrading into something else like, say, paper bags do. This means the plastic is still out there, still being inadvertently consumed by various critters, even if it's no longer choking turtles and killing birds that eat it.

This is one reason I favor paper bags - when I toss one on the compost heap it turns into natural fertilizer and winds up recycled into food. Of course, I'll be the first to admit some of my paper bags do wind up in the landfill for one reason or another, I'm not perfect. Also, paper isn't the ideal solution in all cases, either.

The ones they had here wheren't made of any plastic but IIRC based on corn or something like that.

It's too bad they where more expensive than plastic, felt flimiser and where semi-transparent so everyone could see what you bought. I don't rememeber seeing them around recently anymore it's just the usual plastic bags now.

I dunno how it is elsewhere but here we use almost every plastic bag atleast twice since they generally double as waste bin liners after you've used them. Why someone would buy waste dedicated bin liners strike me as some of the more inane things one can do, but its apparently common in some countries I hear...

[The Yosemite Bear]

yes they are made from corn, and begin to disintergrate at composting temps which are still in the temprature danger zone. I work with them daily, so I can confirm that all the things you suspected are true. They cost about .50 each for the 33 gal types compared to .05 each for the 56 gal heavy plastic disposables, they can't hold half as much weight over the same stress zone, and completely melt when someone uses them to hold soup, poached eggs, stock, used breakfast meat, oatmeal, or anything one of those stupid ex-terns has burnt. Meanwhile the only thing that melts an old fashioned single use that fast is when an extern dumps the fryer bin in a garbage can (that also melts the heavy gauge plastic garbage bin as well.