Doctor Who S32E7, "A Good Man Goes to War" [spoilers]

[HMS Sophia]

So... I'm slightly confused...
A time lord can be created (or at least a part time lord), by two humans getting it on, while inside a tardis/the time vortex....
Aren't time lords grown rather than born? Didn't the families have looms to grow them on or something like that?

And yeah, if river was part time lord this entire time, why didn't the doctor sense her. That's... odd?

[Thanas]

I know I like to harp on RTD a lot, but he never did something this stupid.

[HMS Sophia]

I know I like to harp on RTD a lot, but he never did something this stupid.

Which bit? The lack of motivation for the bad guys other than "the doctor is bad"
River being Amy ponds daughter but also half time lord?
Spitfires in fucking space (for no discernible reason this time)?
Pointless cameo's in order to make having a prop department worth it?
Shamelessly introducing characters just to make you feel bad when they are... killed?... twice for that matter (kinda)
Fucking river song maybe?

[DaveJB]

So... I'm slightly confused...
A time lord can be created (or at least a part time lord), by two humans getting it on, while inside a tardis/the time vortex....

Even after the Doctor acknowledged that Amy and Rory had been doing the nasty inside the TARDIS, he still seemed pretty incredulous as to the possibility of that producing a child with Time Lord abilities. There might still be a further explanation as to how Melody/River ended up partially Time Lord.

Aren't time lords grown rather than born? Didn't the families have looms to grow them on or something like that?

That was only in the novels, it was never established in anything canonical. In fact, if you take the "Doctor is half-human" stuff from the TV movie at face value, it implies that Time Lords procreate like we do.

And yeah, if river was part time lord this entire time, why didn't the doctor sense her. That's... odd?

So far, the only Time Lord abilities we've seen from Melody/River are the ability to regenerate, and heightened strength and reflexes (which were also demonstrated by Jenny in The Doctor's Daughter). Time Lords seem to sense each other via their telepathic powers, so presumably River doesn't have them... or possibly she is telepathic, but really good at shielding her thoughts from the Doctor.

[Thanas]

^All of the above, but River Song easily takes the cake for the worst Mary Sue ever in Doctor Who. I mean, not only is she female Indiana Jones, she also travels through time, generally AWESOME (so awesome the audience is constantly beaten over the head with it) etc. And now she is half-timelord to boot.

[HMS Sophia]

^All of the above, but River Song easily takes the cake for the worst Mary Sue ever in Doctor Who. I mean, not only is she female Indiana Jones, she also travels through time, generally AWESOME (so awesome the audience is constantly beaten over the head with it) etc. And now she is half-timelord to boot.

This is actually only the first time River has really annoyed me. She has rubbed me the wrong way before (fnar, fnar), but... yeah.
To start with it was because I felt like she was really phoning it in. When she was explaining why all this crap was happening, it didn't feel like she was trying very hard. And then she cracked out the utter stupid, and River Song might as well wear a red cape and declare herself Super-Girl!
Her always having the answers is just getting annoying. Especially when she is arrogant and AWESOME (as thanas said) to boot.

That was only in the novels, it was never established in anything canonical. In fact, if you take the "Doctor is half-human" stuff from the TV movie at face value, it implies that Time Lords procreate like we do.

Ah okay. Thankee.

Also, I think I should say: I like the spitfires in space the first time round. Yes they were silly, but it was campy action fun, and I thought it was enjoyable, and even a little suitable for Doctor Who. It felt like it was getting back to it's roots.
But this time, they just made no fucking sense. And how were they returned to their own time? The doctor just said they were and it is so?
And yeah, were they not de-teched after the battle with the Dalek's in space? Otherwise... what?

[2000AD]

The only water in the forest is the river.

No pond, just a river. A melody is a song. Family name first is not unusual even on Earth.

Holy shit that was AWESOME!!!!!!!!

I'm wondering how far back this was planned and how much was fudging stuff to make it work.

All of the above, but River Song easily takes the cake for the worst Mary Sue ever in Doctor Who. I mean, not only is she female Indiana Jones, she also travels through time, generally AWESOME (so awesome the audience is constantly beaten over the head with it) etc. And now she is half-timelord to boot.

Surely getting killed and still needing the Doctor to do most of the thinking and the work are big hits against Mary Sui-ism.

[Thanas]

You might have a point if she would be indeed dead, moreover dieing is not really against Mary-Suism.

[HMS Sophia]

The problem is, of course, that while she died, she is still hanging around. Yes, I know, timey-wimey, but it doesn't stop her being a mary-sue.

And as for the doctor doing most of the thinking. how many times has he been stuck without knowing what to do, and she has hinted, revealed things, or just outright told him what he needs to figure it out.

[Dartzap]

I think the nicest/cruellest bit was when the Doctor was using his telepathic abilities to lie to the dying solider about remembering her (I assume that's what all the head touching was about, anyway) I suppose saying "I've not met you - yet" would be a bit too Riverish

[El Moose Monstero]

^All of the above, but River Song easily takes the cake for the worst Mary Sue ever in Doctor Who. I mean, not only is she female Indiana Jones, she also travels through time, generally AWESOME (so awesome the audience is constantly beaten over the head with it) etc. And now she is half-timelord to boot.

QFFT.

The mechanism of getting the timelord DNA was also frickin' ridiculous. Amy and Rory had sex in the TARDIS and their baby got superpowers? How does that even work? 'Being next to the time vortex'? You'd think the doctor might have realised, you know, when he was doing all of his baby scans and when they had the whole frickin' conversation about 'baby getting a timehead'. Just because you had a comedy throwaway conversation about it, I don't think that counts as foreshadowing or makes the idea any less stupid. Of all the ways to get timelord DNA into the little girl, this one was by far the least interesting method of doing it.

Also, I ranted before about the whole 'this is your fault' thing, and it's irritating me even more the longer it sits. I didn't mind RTD's axe to grind about the Doctor using people and his actions having consequences that he doesn't see. If Moffat actually believes the crap that River was spouting, it's not only shit writing but makes me think he hasn't been paying attention. Even if you can justify what she said as being the propaganda inserted into her from birth (so why has she never expressed these ideas before?), it's still a rubbish way to express the idea that the Doctor might make enemies with people he's never met.

Also, I think they've tried to pack far too much in this season and I think it's ruining the characters for me. I quite liked Amy and Rory last season, but they seem to have been entirely 'plot mouthpieces' in this series - the random lurching forward in time means that character development is just sort of thrust upon you than being observed. They're actually starting to grate on me a little.

[Thanas]

The mechanism of getting the timelord DNA was also frickin' ridiculous. Amy and Rory had sex in the TARDIS and their baby got superpowers? How does that even work? 'Being next to the time vortex'? You'd think the doctor might have realised, you know, when he was doing all of his baby scans and when they had the whole frickin' conversation about 'baby getting a timehead'. Just because you had a comedy throwaway conversation about it, I don't think that counts as foreshadowing or makes the idea any less stupid. Of all the ways to get timelord DNA into the little girl, this one was by far the least interesting method of doing it.

Yes. Also, if she is that linked to the Tardis, why doesn't the tardis recognize her? (Nevermind, as a lot have already pointed out, the doctor).

In a way, this retroactively makes Silence in the library even less logical. Captain Jack/Rose are mutated by the time vortex (one even looking directly into it, which is supposedly much more dangerous/powerful) and the Tardis reacts to them or their commands. Silence in the Library? Nothing.

I somehow feel as if Moffat has fallen into the Davies trap - loving one character so much that the only way to go forward is in his mind to make the character more and more powerful (Jack). I mean, it has not gotten to the point where the writer invents a bogus one-season long arc that turns out to be nothing and was just a glorified cameo (wasted storyline potential with Rose in S4, for example) yet, but we are fast approaching it.

[HMS Sophia]

I liked Jack. He was fun. Why cant we have Jack back, instead of this river song bullshit

[Lord Woodlouse]

The mechanism of getting the timelord DNA was also frickin' ridiculous. Amy and Rory had sex in the TARDIS and their baby got superpowers? How does that even work? 'Being next to the time vortex'? You'd think the doctor might have realised, you know, when he was doing all of his baby scans and when they had the whole frickin' conversation about 'baby getting a timehead'. Just because you had a comedy throwaway conversation about it, I don't think that counts as foreshadowing or makes the idea any less stupid. Of all the ways to get timelord DNA into the little girl, this one was by far the least interesting method of doing it.

Yes. Also, if she is that linked to the Tardis, why doesn't the tardis recognize her? (Nevermind, as a lot have already pointed out, the doctor).

In a way, this retroactively makes Silence in the library even less logical. Captain Jack/Rose are mutated by the time vortex (one even looking directly into it, which is supposedly much more dangerous/powerful) and the Tardis reacts to them or their commands. Silence in the Library? Nothing.

I somehow feel as if Moffat has fallen into the Davies trap - loving one character so much that the only way to go forward is in his mind to make the character more and more powerful (Jack). I mean, it has not gotten to the point where the writer invents a bogus one-season long arc that turns out to be nothing and was just a glorified cameo (wasted storyline potential with Rose in S4, for example) yet, but we are fast approaching it.

What are you talking about? What commands have any of the above given the TARDIS that have been accepted or rejected?

[2000AD]

The mechanism of getting the timelord DNA was also frickin' ridiculous. Amy and Rory had sex in the TARDIS and their baby got superpowers? How does that even work? 'Being next to the time vortex'?

It's Doctor Who, a family fun sci-fi show, you were expecting hard science? The show that coined the term 'wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey ball' to hand wave explaining anything that might be complicated to justify and you're complaining about something being pulled out of thin air with only a little direct foreshadowing as an explanation?
The Time Vortex has been established as dangerous and AFAIK not very well explained, so the potential for it to have some 'wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey' side effects on a foetus is not exactly a shocker in my book. It's not like "something weird happens to a baby/child/person and now they have special powers" is a rarity in fiction.

You'd think the doctor might have realised, you know, when he was doing all of his baby scans and when they had the whole frickin' conversation about 'baby getting a timehead'.

You mean the fake baby that wasn't even growing inside fake-amy properly, that baby he was scanning? If the scanner can't even determine if she's pregnant or not I doubt it'll be able to give an accurate DNA profile. Doc probably put any discrepancies down to it being fake-amy he's scanning.
Plus until reptile lady and blue fat guy questioned him he was sure Rory and Amy hadn't got it on inside the Tardis, so even if he knew about the potential for the time vortex to screw up impregnation he wasn't considering it.

---

Yes. Also, if she is that linked to the Tardis, why doesn't the tardis recognize her? (Nevermind, as a lot have already pointed out, the doctor).

In a way, this retroactively makes Silence in the library even less logical. Captain Jack/Rose are mutated by the time vortex (one even looking directly into it, which is supposedly much more dangerous/powerful) and the Tardis reacts to them or their commands. Silence in the Library? Nothing.

Who says the TARDIS doesn't recognise her? Sexy is one big ball of 'wizard did it' plot device. In The Doctor's Wife she had control rooms The Doctor hadn't used yet archived so she presumably knows something about his future, so probably knows more about River than the Doctor and isn't letting on so she doesn't mess up the future.
River said she learned how to fly the Tardis from the best but not the Doctor, who better to learn how to fly a Tardis from then a Tardis itself, maybe she's met Sexy (pretty sure someone put forward that theory earlier in the thread, or somewhere else).

[El Moose Monstero]

It's Doctor Who, a family fun sci-fi show, you were expecting hard science? The show that coined the term 'wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey ball' to hand wave explaining anything that might be complicated to justify and you're complaining about something being pulled out of thin air with only a little direct foreshadowing as an explanation?
The Time Vortex has been established as dangerous and AFAIK not very well explained, so the potential for it to have some 'wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey' side effects on a foetus is not exactly a shocker in my book. It's not like "something weird happens to a baby/child/person and now they have special powers" is a rarity in fiction.

Of course I'm not expecting hard science. I was, however, expecting something a bit more creative than 'OMG,they had sex in the tardis', and yes, it's not as if there's an absence of crazy origin stories out there for superheroes etc, but I was hoping for something a bit interesting rather than a handwave. The silence had tardis tech, they're clearly aware enough of the doctor to know what they're up against, couldn't there have been some sort of way for them to impart timelord powers? Hell, even pulling a Rose and exposing the baby to whatever passes for the heart of the tardis in the silents machine would have been a bit more of an explanation rather than just putting a sign on the Tardis door that says 'no fucking'.

You'd think the doctor might have realised, you know, when he was doing all of his baby scans and when they had the whole frickin' conversation about 'baby getting a timehead'.

You mean the fake baby that wasn't even growing inside fake-amy properly, that baby he was scanning? If the scanner can't even determine if she's pregnant or not I doubt it'll be able to give an accurate DNA profile. Doc probably put any discrepancies down to it being fake-amy he's scanning.
Plus until reptile lady and blue fat guy questioned him he was sure Rory and Amy hadn't got it on inside the Tardis, so even if he knew about the potential for the time vortex to screw up impregnation he wasn't considering it.

Fair enough, I just thought that given that they had the initial conversation about the time travel screwing with the baby before he'd done the first scan, that might have been the first conclusion. Unless his first thought on that scan was to know instantaneously that she was a ganger rather than wondering if she might be right and that there might be some time-based shenanigans going on.

[Broomstick]

As Tev points out, family name first isn't a uncommon thing, even in modern times. It could be that River is using the Gamma Forest version of her name, which could put the Family Name first, followed by the Proper name. Thus Melody Pond in the language of the Forest is River Song

Which means when the Doctor calls here "River" it's just like when he calls Amy "Pond" instead of Amy. Probably just as well she uses River, then - having two Ponds would be a bit confusing.

[HMS Sophia]

Maybe it becomes something of a nickname, the switching. River and pond, you see?
Weirdness either way.

[Crazedwraith]

As Tev points out, family name first isn't a uncommon thing, even in modern times. It could be that River is using the Gamma Forest version of her name, which could put the Family Name first, followed by the Proper name. Thus Melody Pond in the language of the Forest is River Song

Of course melody to Song is a bit of a fudge because its not pronounced that way. It's pronounced Sung and is clearly used as her family name. Dr River Song, is generally shortened to Dr Song.

I was thinking that the soldier girl could still have been River in a past regeneration, since she seems to have come from the gamma forest were presumably River will grow up. And that's why River couldn't go there because she'd be crossing her own timeline and of course they never told us her name. Unless I forgot it.

Of course the girl's account of meeting the Doctor doesn't really match up with River's account of him knowing all about her. Plus if she had been there at the same time as River's baby timelines would already have been crossed.

[Ilya Muromets]

I was thinking that the soldier girl could still have been River in a past regeneration, since she seems to have come from the gamma forest were presumably River will grow up. And that's why River couldn't go there because she'd be crossing her own timeline and of course they never told us her name. Unless I forgot it.

Of course the girl's account of meeting the Doctor doesn't really match up with River's account of him knowing all about her. Plus if she had been there at the same time as River's baby timelines would already have been crossed.

Can't be. We see her body right there, and the Doctor watches her die. None of the shiny-goldy light that signals a new series regeneration. Unless, of course, there's some convolute reason for said regeneration to have been delayed a bit or something.

[Crazedwraith]

Could be similar to Jenny's regeneration. That had such a significant delay on it that the Doctor left before it happened. Yeah, I'm really stretching her.

Anyone else kind of annoyed that the Doctor once again dodges all questions about his family? Would it make him so unrelatable to be s grandfather? To reference Susan?

[kaeneth]

I know I like to harp on RTD a lot, but he never did something this stupid.

Honestly, for a show like Doctor Who, it does make decent plot-sense. If the Eyepatch lady is an agent of the Silence and the war is really between The Silence and The Doctor....making a Timelord to kill him makes a sort-of-sense. They know they have been only able to 'win' rounds with him, not actually kill him. Building a super soldier is something Sci-Fi people have been going on about for decades.

River Song's Mary-suism is no worse than The Doctor himself, to be honest.

So, assuming next season that The Silence turns out to be behind everything it makes sense.

[Broomstick]

Anyone else kind of annoyed that the Doctor once again dodges all questions about his family? Would it make him so unrelatable to be s grandfather? To reference Susan?

Presumably, his entire family is dead, including his children and grandchildren. Losing a child is horrifically painful. Keeping in mind that the Doctor destroyed his own species that ALSO means he killed his own family.

That's a pretty painful, complex heap of emotions right there if you're going to do it at all plausibly. He avoids the question because there's no way to talk about it short of emotional agony.

The Doctor has always been reluctant to discuss his family.

[Broomstick]

I was thinking that the soldier girl could still have been River in a past regeneration, since she seems to have come from the gamma forest were presumably River will grow up. And that's why River couldn't go there because she'd be crossing her own timeline and of course they never told us her name. Unless I forgot it.

Lorna Bucket. At least I think the second name was Bucket the first was definitely Lorna.

She's not River Song/Melody Pond.

[Minischoles]

I thought this might interest a few people here, someone on another site linked this
https://groups.google.com/group/rec.art ... 5e9b213df9

Looks like Moffat has been wanting to use those lines for over 15 years.