The Greek Indignants

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The Greek Indignants

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[...]
Greece's international lenders have made clear that the new bailout package, which would replace a 110 billion euro deal agreed only a year ago, depends on Athens keeping to its promises for further austerity and accelerated privatizations.

But the government is under huge pressure, not from the hooded radicals who battled police in the early days of the austerity drive, but from ordinary Greeks who are suffering badly under pay and pension cuts and soaring unemployment.

On Sunday night people from Athens and far beyond the capital crammed into the city's Syntagma Square to show they are close to the limit of their endurance.

"Thieves - hustlers - bankers," read one banner raised above a sea of splayed hands waved at the parliament building which overlooks the square, an offensive gesture in Greek culture.

Turnout was the biggest so far in a series of 12 nightly rallies inspired originally by Spain's protest movement.

Police put the turnout at 80,000, but many were stuck in side streets, unable to squeeze into the square, and protesters accuse authorities of routinely underestimating their numbers.

TAX FURY

Greeks on modest salaries are furious that they have to pay ever higher taxes in the drive to reduce a towering budget deficit, while they believe the self-employed such as doctors and lawyers are guilty of flagrant tax evasion.

"Instead of going after tax cheats, they are raising taxes and cutting working people's pay," said Yannis Mylonakos, 34, who lost his job at an advertising agency and joined Greece's army of unemployed, which has hit 15.9 percent of the workforce.

No relief is in sight. The medium-term plan aims for a further 22 billion euros in austerity steps in 2012-15.

On Sunday, some banners evoked the Arab Spring movement to oust authoritarian rule. "From Tahrir Square to Syntagma Square, we support you!" read one banner.

Others showed helicopters in an apparent reference to Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's flight from Cairo in February after weeks of popular protests on the city's Tahrir Square.

Papandreou has used his parliamentary majority to ram through successive rounds of austerity. But faced with the popular anger, some PASOK lawmakers are becoming uneasy.
[...]
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This whole thing is incredible. It all started with a few dozen, maybe a couple hundred people, getting organized over the net and protesting on Athens' central square right in front of the parliament, following the example set by the middle eastern rebellions. Me, and many others, thought that it'd die out with no effect within days. But it all snowballed from there. More and more people hit the streets every night, until today we had the most massive protests in years. Reuters says 80,000, but all the local media report more than 100,000, and about 200,000 throughout the country. And it's even more incredible because, for the first time since I can remember, no formal organization backs the protesters. No party has made an appearance, no leader is accepted. The "Indignants", as the movement is called, are all united by their disdain for the political system, the people who man it, all the sacrifices they demand of the common people while they've given up nothing, and perhaps most importantly, all the crimes they've gotten away with. I still don't know if this'll have any effect. But the cronies we have in power have been forced to acknowledge the movement, something they were loathe to do. And no one can now blame the people for not caring, as many of our pundits did before.

And some local articles. First and third one are from Athens, while the second is from Thessalonica and other major cities. It's all Greek to you, I know, but they have some decent photos and videos.
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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I don't envy the situation in Greece -- and it makes me wonder if things well get bad enough here in the States.
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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So there's something that has really bugged me about Greece (actually I got to thinking along these lines hearing a report about the situation in Ireland, but it applies just as much in this case). What the fuck is wrong with their leaders? Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason Germany et al need to bail out Greece etc. is to try and prevent a 'domino effect' from taking down the whole Eurozone.

So why didn't the Greek leaders say 'well thank you for this lovely, delicious money; but no, we're not going to burn down our public services, we prefer our pensioners alive you see. Oh, don't like that? Well then we'll just default on our loans and bring the whole bloody edifice crashing down.'

It would piss of the Germans and destroy any support for the Eurozone in the long-term, but it would certainly be better for the Greeks; plus any leader who pulled off that kind of brinkmanship would actually stand a chance of getting re-elected. But I guess Greek politicians are just a bunch of spineless weaklings.
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Re: The Greek Indignants

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Well, if memory serves, it won't be the first time Greece had a popular revolution?
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Well, if memory serves, it won't be the first time Greece had a popular revolution?
The Black Colonel junta wasn't dislodged in a revolution par se.
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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A question for the Europeans and economists on the board: why do the bailouts from Europe come with strings attached in the form of austerity measures? Is this actually expected to improve the Greek economy and their long term ability to repay the debt?
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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It allows the bankers, to whom the debts are owed, to extract more blood & money from their debt slaves.
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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Stas Bush wrote:The Black Colonel junta wasn't dislodged in a revolution par se.
True. But the Polytechnic uprising started a series of events that lead to the fall of the Junta. In fact, any of our current members of the parliament participated in that uprising. Which makes even more disappointing how they turned out. And why do you call them Black Colonels? I'm not familiar with the term.

@evilsoup: I'm not sure such brinkmanship would be that great for Greece. We've received enormous amounts of money from the EU. Just about all of the recent major public works were funded by them, for instance. And it's really not the Europeans' fault that the money got lost on the way. But it's certain that any leader who did something like that would have the easiest reelection ever.
Simon_Jester wrote:A question for the Europeans and economists on the board: why do the bailouts from Europe come with strings attached in the form of austerity measures? Is this actually expected to improve the Greek economy and their long term ability to repay the debt?
Many around here wonder the same thing. I'm one of them.
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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Narkis wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:The Black Colonel junta wasn't dislodged in a revolution par se.
True. But the Polytechnic uprising started a series of events that lead to the fall of the Junta. In fact, any of our current members of the parliament participated in that uprising. Which makes even more disappointing how they turned out. And why do you call them Black Colonels? I'm not familiar with the term.
Black is a color traditionally associated with fascism; I remember just reading an excerpt from a telegram sent by Roosevelt to Churchill during the Second World War where Franco and Tito are referred to, respectively, as "the Black and the Red."

Black is also a color frequently associated with individuals who manage to dishonor themselves by association with atrocities (as did the colonels' junta).
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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Ah I see. Then it's a very fitting term for these men.
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Re: The Greek Indignants

Post by Vympel »

As a diaspora Greek myself, I've got to say I don't feel much sympathy for Greece's natives. You get the government you deserve, and for too long Greece has been living well beyond its means and everyone was happy to go along with it. The anecdotes are near endless - take all their outrageous pension allowances*.

Seriously, what the hell does Greece make? Fuck all.

*Like the absurd "keep your parents pension if you're an unmarried woman over 40".
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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Simon_Jester wrote:A question for the Europeans and economists on the board: why do the bailouts from Europe come with strings attached in the form of austerity measures? Is this actually expected to improve the Greek economy and their long term ability to repay the debt?
That rather depends on whether the austerity measures the Greek government is pushing for are exactly what the German government had in mind, because I'm not seeing anything in that source independently verifying what the Greek PM is saying. They might well have been content with eliminating the more excessive measures such as Vympel mentions and cracking down on civil servants skimming the books, as opposed to selling vital public utilities to the highest bidder and taxing the middle-class at the expense of the very richest.
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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What Germany wanted was a debt restructuring including all parts of Greek society, including the banks. The Greek Government fought tooth and nail against it.

Needless to say, Germany is not particularly happy with Greece at the moment, the prevailing political sentiment seems to be "that they are taking our money but are not making enough efforts", unlike, say, Portugal, which produced a very comprehensive program which was widely lauded over here as an honest effort, with the unspoken addition of "unlike what the greeks are doing".

The privatisation program in Greece does not seem to go as planned, Papandreau is a joke as a national leader and instead of pushing through hard reforms the Governemnt seems to be contend with making a few cosmetic ones and then have the various factions of society blame each other. Of course, they are not facing much hardship themselves - the Government's ide of trying to get rid of the bloated sector of civil fraud service seems to be "well, we just hope people age really quick so that they retire".

A question for the Europeans and economists on the board: why do the bailouts from Europe come with strings attached in the form of austerity measures? Is this actually expected to improve the Greek economy and their long term ability to repay the debt?
Yes, in a country where 40% of the GDP is produced by people working for the state (doing what?), people kinda get the idea that that is a waste of taxpayers money.

So why didn't the Greek leaders say 'well thank you for this lovely, delicious money; but no, we're not going to burn down our public services, we prefer our pensioners alive you see. Oh, don't like that? Well then we'll just default on our loans and bring the whole bloody edifice crashing down.'

It would piss of the Germans and destroy any support for the Eurozone in the long-term, but it would certainly be better for the Greeks; plus any leader who pulled off that kind of brinkmanship would actually stand a chance of getting re-elected. But I guess Greek politicians are just a bunch of spineless weaklings.
Because if Greece gets that way, you can expect them to crash from first world to third world in a matter of months. If Germany pulls its loans, the state would go bankrupt. As it is nearly synonymous with Greek society, guess what happens next. Even further, if Greece leaves the EU, there goes any of their pretensions they have of being better than Turkey. They would lose European support for their nationalistic stance on Cyprus, they would lose their primary suppliers of modern technology (and weapons) and tourism would probably cease. Without tourism, Greece cannot exist either.

Also, how is "thank you for paying for our lifestyle, please continue to do so until eternity while we do nothing" in any way morally justifiable?
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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Ja, ja, those shiftless, lazy easterners, sucking the lifeblood from honest German workers!

Unmarried daughters getting their parents' pensions is clearly bullshit, and I'm sure that you can find plenty of that idiocy. But...
Angela Merkel wrote: These countries [other EU countries] can see that the path taken by Greece with the IMF is not an easy one. As a result they will do all they can to avoid this themselves
(source)

...all of this is happening because Germany wants to make an example of Greece. I mean, you can argue that Greece is in need of reform, that's fine. But then you have shit like raising VAT and fuel taxes (which will disproportionately hit the poor). You see Germans complaining about generous Greek pensions, but you don't hear anyone demanding that they go after private-sector pensions payment evaders.
Thanas wrote:Because if Greece gets that way, you can expect them to crash from first world to third world in a matter of months. If Germany pulls its loans, the state would go bankrupt. As it is nearly synonymous with Greek society, guess what happens next. Even further, if Greece leaves the EU, there goes any of their pretensions they have of being better than Turkey. They would lose European support for their nationalistic stance on Cyprus, they would lose their primary suppliers of modern technology (and weapons) and tourism would probably cease. Without tourism, Greece cannot exist either.

Also, how is "thank you for paying for our lifestyle, please continue to do so until eternity while we do nothing" in any way morally justifiable?
Well, would Germany pull their loans? I mean, the whole point of these bailouts is to protect the banks prevent other countries from going bankrupt; if that's such a serious issue, then surely Germany would have to give in?

And I didn't say anything about morality, but one could argue that the main concern of the Greek government should be - wait for it - the wellbeing of their own citizens.
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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Also according to a recent study Southern Europeans are not lazy people on principle:
PARIS (AFP) – Southern Europeans work more and longer than Germans, a study said, debunking recent comments made by Chancellor Angela Merkel that workers in debt-mired Greece, Spain and Portual are lazy.

A statistics-based report published by French bank Natixis chief economist Patrick Artus said Germans worked less annually and during their lifetime than Southern Europeans, and did not work more intensely than their neighbours either.

The study, based on OECD and Eurostat figures, said a German's average annual work duration (1,390 hours) was substantially lower than for a Greek (2,119), an Italian (1,773) a Portuguese (1,719) and a Spaniard (1,654).

A French person works 1,554 hours per year, said the study which was published on Monday.

"Germany's productivity per head remains close to the average of southern European countries. Its hourly productivity rate is above average but not better than France or Greece," the study added.

Although the legal retirement age is older in Germany -- currently 65 years set to rise to 67 -- the Portuguese and Spanish work longer. Their real retirement ages are 62.6 and 62.3 respectively, against 62.2 for Germans.

The real retirement age for Greeks is 61.5 but that is expected to rise to 63.5 by 2015 following the government's austerity programme to raise the legal retirement age to 65 from 60.

Only the French (60 years) and the Italians (60.1) currently retire two years earlier on average than the Germans, the study also said.

Last month Merkel hinted that southern Europeans take too much holiday and retire too early, sparking outrage across the continent.

"In countries such as Greece, Spain and Portugal, people should not retire earlier than in Germany. Everyone should make similar efforts a little bit more. It's important," she said.

Artus, the author of the Natixis report wrote: "Angela Merkel does not show the real problems of the southern countries of the eurozone."
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Though of course working longer hours in a placebo public sector job, sitting behind a hotel bar, picking olives, whitewashing villas and lifeguarding swiming pools doesn't drive down debt/deficit as well as megacorporations such as BASF and Volkswagen...
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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evilsoup wrote:
Angela Merkel wrote: These countries [other EU countries] can see that the path taken by Greece with the IMF is not an easy one. As a result they will do all they can to avoid this themselves
(source)

...all of this is happening because Germany wants to make an example of Greece.
Yessir. Big mean Germany is all out to oppress Europe and has nothing better to do but make an example out of the poor Greeks by giving them money. In case you are ignorant of how the EU works, Germany has precious little to no tools of influencing the laws the Greek parliament passes or in how to tell the Greeks to run their own country. Angela Merkel cannot tell the Greek Government to raise taxes (well, I suppose she can tell them, but she cannot enforce it).

EDIT: This is being done because the Greek Government asked for money. It is not as if Germany showed up, put a gun to their head and then demanded that they take the loans.
I mean, you can argue that Greece is in need of reform, that's fine. But then you have shit like raising VAT and fuel taxes (which will disproportionately hit the poor). You see Germans complaining about generous Greek pensions, but you don't hear anyone demanding that they go after private-sector pensions payment evaders.
No? You must not read any German news, then. Suffice to say the print papers are pretty full of them.
Well, would Germany pull their loans? I mean, the whole point of these bailouts is to protect the banks prevent other countries from going bankrupt; if that's such a serious issue, then surely Germany would have to give in?
It would be far cheaper for Germany to just compensate the German/European banks directly and let the rest look after themselves. Not so great for Greece, though. Also, cue more outrage from the left-behind Greeks who will then go "bbbbbut European solidarity" or "You still owe us money because of Nazis".
And I didn't say anything about morality, but one could argue that the main concern of the Greek government should be - wait for it - the wellbeing of their own citizens.
Which is served by going bankrupt how? Because that is what you are arguing here, assuming you are of course not arguing that Germany should pay for Greece in all perpetuity.
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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Thanas wrote:
I mean, you can argue that Greece is in need of reform, that's fine. But then you have shit like raising VAT and fuel taxes (which will disproportionately hit the poor). You see Germans complaining about generous Greek pensions, but you don't hear anyone demanding that they go after private-sector pensions payment evaders.
No? You must not read any German news, then. Suffice to say the print papers are pretty full of them.
Conceeded, I was mainly going by annoying whiny Germans I've been talking to, haven't really been keeping up with German news.
Thanas wrote:Yessir. Big mean Germany is all out to oppress Europe and has nothing better to do but make an example out of the poor Greeks by giving them money. In case you are ignorant of how the EU works, Germany has precious little to no tools of influencing the laws the Greek parliament passes or in how to tell the Greeks to run their own country. Angela Merkel cannot tell the Greek Government to raise taxes (well, I suppose she can tell them, but she cannot enforce it).
Thanas, how did you feel about the IMF 'bailouts' of east Asian countries in the 1990s? In case you don't know how the IMF works, they couldn't tell those governments to raise taxes - OH WAIT, yes they could, as he who pays the piper plays the tune!
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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evilsoup wrote:Thanas, how did you feel about the IMF 'bailouts' of east Asian countries in the 1990s?
Not much, to be honest, as I did not keep up with them, so I am not qualified to comment on them now.
In case you don't know how the IMF works, they couldn't tell those governments to raise taxes - OH WAIT, yes they could, as he who pays the piper plays the tune!
Except that the Greek government in this case has refused to accede to many of Germany's demands. Like, for example, going after Greek banks as well. So it is not as if Germany is calling the shots with regards to the Greek domestic situation.
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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Vympel wrote:As a diaspora Greek myself, I've got to say I don't feel much sympathy for Greece's natives. You get the government you deserve, and for too long Greece has been living well beyond its means and everyone was happy to go along with it. The anecdotes are near endless - take all their outrageous pension allowances*.

Seriously, what the hell does Greece make? Fuck all.

*Like the absurd "keep your parents pension if you're an unmarried woman over 40".
I don't have much sympathy for them either. That aside, the current course looks like it is pushing Greece into a downward spiral where increased unemployment reduces government revenue, which in turn results in more taxes and reduction in services, which results in more unemployment and so on.

How exactly is Greece supposed to pay any of this off with collapsing government incomes, rising unemployment and a country that looks like on the verge of social upheaval? A default looks inevitable. Purposely bankrupting somebody who owes you money doesn't seem like a clever way of getting your money back.
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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Well, what is Europe supposed to do?

It cannot directly reform the society due to it not having powers to do so/sovereignty issues/ (rightful) unwillingness from Greeks to be ruled by dictat.

In theory, it can perform a restructuring of the debt or a controlled default, except that the Greek Government does not want it.

It cannot book Greece out of the Eurozone - Greece can leave on its own, but that is about it and so far it has shown no willingness to do so. Nevermind that this will inevitably lead to a devaluation of currency, meaning that the middle class, the poor and the elderly will be hit hardest by it.

So...what else can Europe do besides throwing money at the problem and hoping Greece gets it act together?
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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Thanas wrote:It cannot book Greece out of the Eurozone - Greece can leave on its own, but that is about it and so far it has shown no willingness to do so.
Question for you since I have no idea how the EU treaties work: It's well known that Greece got into the EU in the first place partly through fraudulent representation of its finances and it continued to carry out this fraud after joining the EU. Their budgets & finances don't come anywhere close to meeting the EU requirements and that's been the case since day 1. Isn't there something in there that says that you can boot out a country when they don't meet the requirements, and not only that, they've engaged in a ton of fraud to cover it up?
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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Thanas wrote:So...what else can Europe do besides throwing money at the problem and hoping Greece gets it act together?
I can think of a couple of options, but they're A) acts of war and B) would create at least as many problems as they'd solve. Damned if we do, damned if we don't really; we can either continue enabling financial irresponsibility on the part of the Greek government or we can leave them in the same position that much of Europe was in 1929.
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Re: The Greek Indignants

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aerius wrote:
Thanas wrote:It cannot book Greece out of the Eurozone - Greece can leave on its own, but that is about it and so far it has shown no willingness to do so.
Question for you since I have no idea how the EU treaties work: It's well known that Greece got into the EU in the first place partly through fraudulent representation of its finances and it continued to carry out this fraud after joining the EU. Their budgets & finances don't come anywhere close to meeting the EU requirements and that's been the case since day 1. Isn't there something in there that says that you can boot out a country when they don't meet the requirements, and not only that, they've engaged in a ton of fraud to cover it up?
No, up until the recent EU treaty there was no such mechanism, due to the nature of international law - meaning that it is the sovereign right of a country to chose free association and others cannot simply decide for that country to leave. They can only do so by leaving themselves. So in effect the only way this would work is if every state would leave the EU, leaving Greece as the sole member. Not a good way to do this.

Now there is such a mechanism, but it is unclear precisely when it sets in. Nevermind that nobody is really interested in booting Greece out, due to Europe not being a heartless bastard that does not care what happens to the Greek citizens.
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Fingolfin_Noldor
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Re: The Greek Indignants

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

The EU can either let Greece default and drag a number of French and German banks with it, or continue throwing money into a bottomless pit until it runs out of money. Either way, someone is going to bleed whether they like it or not.
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Re: The Greek Indignants

Post by K. A. Pital »

To answer the Black Colonels question - I know in Greek they're just "colonels" or "regime of the colonels", but in Russian they've been universally called the "Black Colonel junta", probably because they were fascists and black is a traditional fascist color, like Simon noted.
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