Chaos or Mythos ? Choose your poison !

[Rabid]

I was wondering... Between these two hideous worst case scenarios, coming from two universes known for their very-grim-darkness, which one would you “prefer”, or more accurately, which one would you think is the least worst :


[WCS 1] - Today's Earth is taken over by Chaos (from Warhammer 40k).

[WCS 2] - 2012/12/21 : The stars are now rights, and Cthulhu rise from its grave in R'Lyeh to once again reclaim the planet Earth.


In the Worst Case Scenario number 1, all the world's governments and military have been rendered totally ineffective, be it from chaos corruption or simple utter destruction. The planet hasn't been transformed into a daemon-world yet, but hundreds of millions of cultists are gathering all over the world to “correct” this fact.


In the Worst Case Scenario number 2, Cthulhu and all his pals from the Mythos are now awake and roaming the Earth freely, doing whatever the hell they are supposed to do. I don't know what we can expect from the “Migou”, the aliens from Yuggoth/Pluton. At this point in time, they are probably fleeing for their lives like mad to another(s) star-system(s).



So, what type of eternal torments do you prefer ?

[Metahive]

Chaos because they actually give a shit or two about our existence and offer rewards for faithful service. Cthulhu and his Old One pals don't have any need for us once they're awake.

[Agent Sorchus]

I would actually say that Cthulhu is less dangerous, but not the mythos as a whole. See Cthulhu is not a reality bender as much as the Gods of Chaos are, and he is still tied to individual places. Plus he totally doesn't understand us, as much as we don't understand him. Chaos understands us all too well and is a danger because while it needs us, it's needs are not going to get us anywhere good. Yes they can "reward" the faithful by turning you into something that you in your right mind wouldn't think of as a reward. Even some of the champions of chaos who have been totally twisted in mind regret their pacts with the gods.

Now if it were Azathoth awaking instead of lil' ol' Cthulhu then you would have more of reason to choose Chaos. But Cthulhu is actually low on the list of terrifying things in the Mythos universe compared to how well known he is. Nyrathotep is the most powerful being on Earth in Mythos terms, but he is less a danger because he has none of these plans for the universe himself, though he is dangerous thanks to his understanding of humans.

[Metahive]

But it's not just Cthulhu, all his wacked out pals from the mythos are part of the package too according to the OP. I'm sorry, but at least the Chaos Gods do have plans and schemes that can be comprehended by the human mind (they're creations of said mind after all). I do not want to know what someone like Yog-Sothoth might want to do to me out of pure curiosity or whatever utterly alien feelings and thoughts govern these guys.

[Zixinus]

Second. The first case will guarantee an utter hell for us, even beyond death. The second case may just lead to Cthulhu killing us all and be done with it, or even ignoring us if we don't stand in his way.

[Agent Sorchus]

Metahive is wrong.

The stars are now rights, and Cthulhu rise from its grave in R'Lyeh to once again reclaim the planet Earth.

Only the denizens of R'lyeh and the big green monster himself come to our planet, not any of the greater and more powerful and alien beings.

[Metahive]

No, I'm not.

"In the Worst Case Scenario number 2, Cthulhu and all his pals from the Mythos are now awake and roaming the Earth freely, doing whatever the hell they are supposed to do."

[Rabid]

You could cut the pie into four sub-cases for convenience :

Subcase A : Only the denizens of R'Lyeh awakes, including Chtulhu. Class 2 to 5 apocalypse, depending on your interpretations.

Subcase B : Only the Old Ones and their cliques awakes (Cthulhu with Dagon and the Deep-Ones ; Hastur ; Shub-Niggurath, etc...). Class 4 to 5.

Subcase C : The Old Ones awakes, the Elder Things think it is time for them to intervene and banish the Old Ones once again, thus reducing Earth to a battleground for Cosmic Horrors. Class 5 to X-2.

Subcase D : Azathoth attain "sentience", and take interest in what happen in HIS universe (for those who don't know, and from what information I have, Azathoth is the Source Of All Things in the Mythos ; but he is "dumb" : he seems to be more of a principle than a being). I predict a Class Z if he his in a bad mood.

[NecronLord]

What Mythos? If it goes purely by what Lovecraft wrote, it gets a lot less dangerous.

[Rabid]

I haven't read Lovecraft, yet. I'm basing my thoughts on the CthulhuTech sourcebook.


.... Should have said that before, eh ?...

[NecronLord]

Take an example:

Subcase D : Azathoth attain "sentience", and take interest in what happen in HIS universe (for those who don't know, and from what information I have, Azathoth is the Source Of All Things in the Mythos ; but he is "dumb" : he seems to be more of a principle than a being). I predict a Class Z if he his in a bad mood.

Lovecraft never said this entity was asleep, nor that it was all powerful. That's the work of August Derleth, his chief successor, who conflates it with many attributes of MANA-YOOD-SUSHAI, a similar (if smarter and possibly benevolent) diety in the (far superior) works of Lord Dunsanay. Dunsanay was an inspiration of Lovecraft's (and for my money, a superior writer) and certain aspects of Lovecraft's Azathoth are borrowed directly.

With Lovecraft, we're left with a rather less omnipotent pantheon; for example, the Mi-Go, who can be killed with rifles and kept at bay for weeks by one man and some dogs, and to whom the arrival of the United States Army circa 1930 would be disastrous.

And if we count non-Lovecraft-himself sources, then I see no reason we can't just as easily go with the Doctor Who versions (Lovecraft monsters are occasional whipping boys in Doctor Who novels, in various cameo roles; the Seventh Doctor outright killed Azathoth) and presume that the Time Lords come with them and annihilate the whole bally lot of them.

[Agent Sorchus]

NecronLord, you are right that the all powerful destruction that is oft attributed to Azathoth comes from Derleth, however Derleth has far less works about him than Lovecraft. And you are wrong that Derleth conflates Azathoth with MANA-YOOD-SUSHAI, since the only work that Derleth really did that deserves mention conflates Azathoth with Lucifer and his rebellion.

Anyway below are some quotes from only Lovecraft that suggest things about Azathoth's nature. Not that I think Azathoth is included in this since it was intended to be a CTech discussion.

Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me,
Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space,
Till neither time nor matter stretched before me,
But only Chaos, without form or place.
Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered
Things he had dreamed but could not understand,
While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered
In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned.

Emphasis mine, with note that the daemon mentioned here is Nyarthotep (also the name of the previous section, which ends with: 'The idiot Chaos blew Earth’s dust away.')

Wikipedia, but especially the quote from Lovecraft, "The Dreams in the Witch House", p. 282. : "he had picked up that last conception from what he had read in the Necronomicon about the mindless entity Azathoth, which rules all time and space from a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos."

Not a minor deity in the least, and implied to be basically the most powerful thing in the mythos that wasn't Yog-Sothoth.

Back on-topic, Ctech versus 40k chaos has no way for use to win. Boned either way and I personally would say that I would have to go up against the denizens of R'Lyeh than the all to human understanding of the 40k Chaos gods.

[NecronLord]

And you are wrong that Derleth conflates Azathoth with MANA-YOOD-SUSHAI, since the only work that Derleth really did that deserves mention conflates Azathoth with Lucifer and his rebellion.

Another successor author or general non-textual interpretation then.

Emphasis mine,

"Lord of All" is hardly the same as OMNIPOTENT OMNIPOTENT OMNIPOTENT! which is what most fans derive from incredibly sketchy material, and a direct interpretation would be more likely to suggest that all demons pay him homage (he is also repeatedly described as a demon sultan) than that his waking would instantly destroy the universe.

[Agent Sorchus]

"Lord of All" is hardly the same as OMNIPOTENT OMNIPOTENT OMNIPOTENT! which is what most fans derive from incredibly sketchy material, and a direct interpretation would be more likely to suggest that all demons pay him homage (he is also repeatedly described as a demon sultan) than that his waking would instantly destroy the universe.

I think the second quote of Lovecraft's should dismiss the idea that it is just that all others pay him homage, rather than he has power enough that time and space are meaningless to him. But I see nothing from you about any off this but off the cuff dismissals that are pointless and ineffectual since A: I have made no claims about the ability of Azathoth when he 'awakens' and B: because you don't actually address the ideas presented, such as 'the lord of all time and space' which is from the second quote and makes your idea of him just being paid homage doubtful. (C: you haven't read the link or any of the quotes; ie "the ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose center sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things..." which is further evidence that Azathoth is as powerful as anything Lovecraft intended.) D: you are presenting no real alternatives that coincides with the majority of evidence, or is relevant to the OP.

You should just quit this thread if you aren't going to give more than the shadow of your opinion.

[NecronLord]

A: And I have made no comment directly addressed at you. I have not even taken notice of you before now; I did in fact not even look at who had participated in this thread past reading the OP. This is my standard response to any Lovecraft thread: "Clarify what Mythos you're using." You may if you wish, search and find it has been deployed previously whenever the setting has been discussed and I've been bothered to post in such a thread. My posts re the Mythos break down into two general categories that I'm aware of; that, and saying the Old Ones in "Mountains of Madness" are awesome, cool and inspiring. See also D.

B: Sigh, if I must 'address' it: A lord is a temporal ruler. It doesn't say 'controller of all time and space' it says 'Lord.' Now quite what it means is another matter, one may imagine that he controls the entire universe (of course, if he's actually unconscious, as opposed to a gibbering and stupid thing you can knock on the head and mock to its face, he can't exert control over anything at all) but it doesn't actually say that does it?

C: I have in fact read Fungi from Yuggoth. Or at least skimmed it, before. I'd already read that page before you posted. I've not read the Witch House story.

D: My key point, that Lovecraft's Mythos is largely interpreted by its fans far beyond what Lovecraft actually wrote in many cases, and any thread in which it's to be cogently scrutinised must lay down what is acceptable evidence beforehand, stands. If one includes all works by other authors it gets very silly and self contradictory very fast. It is therefore essential whenever it is discussed in any thread that it be specified clearly what is permitted as evidence. I am not putting an argument, I am making what you might call a Point of Information: consequently I am not required to put an alternate interpretation, I am requesting clarification only.

[Rabid]

At the time of this post, we have 7 votes in favor Chaos, and 5 in favor of the Mythos.

From what NecronLord and other people have said in this thread, it seems that the consequences of both scenario would be as follow :


Chaos : Enslaved humanity, and a soul eternally tormented even after death, forever.

Mythos : In the “best” case, we just have to stand out of the way to be left in peace. If not, it will only be an enslaved humanity reduced to a grotesque shadow of what it once was, or best, just extinction. We will anyway have the “possibility” to migrate on another planet/solar system or even another dimension if there is still a human civilization able to pull this off. And otherwise, as far as I know there is no “afterlife” to properly speak of where our souls could be eternally tormented (In Ctech, souls reincarnate, but there is no “Heaven” nor “Hell”) ; so with enough time we could try to pull a “mystical escape” beyond Space, Time and Dimensions, like the Great Race. This or creating our own "god" by fusing all the Souls of Mankind into one Entity (Instrumentality ?).


So the choice seems to be between “Absolute Hell with absolutely no hope” and “Possibly the next step in mankind's evolution, for better and for worse, or otherwise plain and simple death and extinction” ; in short a choice between “Hell & Despair” and “Oblivion & Hope”.


As far as I'm concerned, I think I'll choose “Oblivion & Hope”.


-------

Now, to change the equation, and see how opinions changes or stay the same, or even to transform this into a RAR! :


WCS 1 : When the cultists are just about to succeed in turning Earth into a Daemon-world (say, just one or two weeks before), appear one squad of Grey Knights, around five hundreds Space Marines from various chapters, one Titanic Legion, and around a hundred regiments of Imperials Guards ; each with their own equipments and at 100% of their capabilities ; and with a great fleet in orbit to support them (with several Exterminatus-capable ships). Ordo Malleus and Ordo Hereticus inquisitors included in this pack.
They come from a rift in Time and Space that orbit around Mars, and seems to be guided by a prophet speaking in the name of the Emperor of Mankind...


WCS 2 : CthulhuTech Mythos. The Mi-Goh, the Elder Things, and several other... things(?)... allies themselves in order to banish once again the Great Old Ones from our plane of existence. Beginning of a version on steroid of the Aeon War, and Earth is its Battlefield. Nightmares alive and Terror incarnated roam the Earth, leaving only Death, Desolation and Despair behind them as cosmic entities clashes.

[Feil]

1: We are saved, hooray. Now we are enslaved by a regime that makes Stalin look like a pretty nice guy. On the bright side, intergalactic tourism really picks up and civilization survives.

For all its ranting about being the most horrible regime imaginable, 40k is honestly not that bad as dystopian hellholes go. Excluding hive worlds, forge worlds, and death worlds - of which we would be none - it's not much worse than Stalin's Russia or modern-day North Korea.

2: I dunno, do the whatevers decide to leave however few of us survive after they finish? If enough of us survive, with enough infrastructure intact we probably bounce back in a hundred years or so to a sustainable modern-ish civilization. If there's too much destruction, we probably settle on a bizarre sort of enlightened techno-stone age after a few generations, and maybe we crawl our way back up to widespread use of metals again in a few centuries, provided there's no Canticle For Liebowitz style mass destruction of all scientific learning, in which case we probably never fully recover. Primitive industry requires surface resources. On Earth, those are mostly used up for civilizational time-frames. The next intelligent species to inherit the earth in a few million years will have new ones available, but not us.

[Metahive]

Option 1 will lead to Exterminatus, no questions asked. There's no way the Imperium will waste resources to capture a planet that had almost become a demon world. Option 2 is the same, humanity will not survive god-like beings using the planet as a battlefield.

I pick neither.

[Soldier of Entropy]

Option 1 will lead to Exterminatus, no questions asked. There's no way the Imperium will waste resources to capture a planet that had almost become a demon world. Option 2 is the same, humanity will not survive god-like beings using the planet as a battlefield.

I pick neither.

You forget; we're on Holy Terra.

They won't care if it's in the middle of a full-fledged eye of terror style warp incursion; no loyal Imperium ship would exterminatus Holy Terra.

[Metahive]

Considering they're from a parallel universe they might as well consider our Earth to be a chaos-built mockery of Holy Terra and therefore be extra sure to exterminate us to the last microbe.

[Bakustra]

What makes either of you two clowns think that any other aspects of 40k would be transferred over? I mean, if we can do that, then for the Mythos, well, it's time to see what the price scale is for convincing Nyarlahotep to intervene on the behalf of humanity, or the Mi-Go, or the Great Race of Yith, or the other human-interacting entities of the Mythos which could be convinced to act. Or what would be necessary to allow humanity to migrate in large numbers to the Dreamlands.

For that matter, Mythos creatures may not be as intimidating- the Old Ones were defeated by the starspawn of Cthulhu and forced to retreat to Antarctica, but they also lost a war to the Mi-go, who are capable of being defeated by human weaponry. Cthulhu himself was partially vulnerable to damage from ordinary materials, though he would regenerate it. His Starspawn may be able to be killed or at least hurt by human forces, and Cthulhu forcibly KO'd as well. Cthulhu in any case doesn't seem to have pals beyond his children and servants- the other Great Old Ones don't appear to be connected to Cthulhu beyond a general characterization, and died/became inactive at very different times.

[Rabid]

Alternatively, they can exterminatus it with a virus bomb or an atmospheric incinerator torpedo. After that, only a barren and desolate world will be left ; but considering the ecological state of Holy Terra in the 42nd millennium, it could be considered as a net improvement.

Anyway, they can always send Kriegers or Hive-Worlders to colonize the enviro-sealed Hives that will be built on Exterminated-Earth afterward.

But the only obstacle to an Exterminatus is that, at this point in time, if we are in the WH40K universe and not in an alternate one, the God Emperor of Mankind is still probably on Earth. Or maybe it his him who has opened this rift in Time and Space (but from our Present or from the future of the 42nd millennium ?) Meaning that, after Earth has been reclaimed, maybe, maybe the Emperor will walk again in the 42nd millennium. Truly the end of Times !



Man...

... Has a fic about this been already done ? I may have some ideas...


--------------


From what has been said earlier, considering that the Mythos "seems", as far as I know, only concerned with Earth (but maybe it is an observationnal bias...) - or at least the Great Old Ones ; compared to Chaos which is Galactic or possibly even Universal in scale...

I think that the spawns of R'Lyeh are the least bad option. At least, a bullet in the head will kill you for good, there's no risk that your soul will be hijacked and redirected to the Warp as you die. Maybe..

[Black Admiral]

Option 1 will lead to Exterminatus, no questions asked. There's no way the Imperium will waste resources to capture a planet that had almost become a demon world.

They will and have. One example being the planet Salinas, which actually spent a decade under the control of the daemon prince Ustaroth before a crusade force, led by the Grey Knights, was able to banish the daemon prince and liberate Salinas (and what survivors there were of its population - although calling them survivors may be an overstatement) (as described in the Ultramarines novel The Killing Ground). The Imperium will not consign billions to death - and render an inhabitable world utterly beyond use - unless it must; every use of Exterminatus is investigated afterwards, and if it wasn't necessary the Inquisition will make an extremely thorough example of the perpetrator (see: Jaq Draco after the Exterminatus of Stalinvast, or Inquisitor Kryptmann's insane killing spree).

You really, really do not want the Inquisition making an example out of you.

[Metahive]

Now here's the thing, would they consider humans from a parallel universe "humans" or just "xenos deviously masquerading as humans"?

[Serafina]

Now here's the thing, would they consider humans from a parallel universe "humans" or just "xenos deviously masquerading as humans"?

Why not? We're 100% human in every conceivable way - in fact or genestock might be more "pure" than that of plenty of other imperial worlds.


Also, can we pick both options? Perhaps they'll destroy each other