Legend of Galactic Heroes vs. Honorverse

[Simon_Jester]

I don't think manpower is really the critical factor in staffing the ships. Given the size of the fleets, they can't put more than about 1% of their population on starships, I'd think, and the duties of ship crew seem fairly easy to master. The bottleneck seems to be ship production rather than crews, at least in terms of the long-term ability to maintain large fleets. So putting 10% or 20% more men on your ship per ton doesn't necessarily hurt much.

[Tanasinn]

Skilled manpower seems to be stressed, however. There's a brief segment in some point in the series where Yang and company get caught on a traffic jam on Heinessen because the guys running the show don't know their asshole from a pothole. It's mentioned that the drafting of educated persons is having a negative effect on running things back home.

[Connor MacLeod]

Check out Episode 46, thats the relevant episode.

I take it that was supposed to show beam and gunship atacks on it (what I witnessed against Iserlohn) didnt' see any missile attacks though. Or Thor's hammer. Those are other episodes I take it?

Yes, but they had hacked the fortresses computers (they left a backdoor when the Empire recaptured it). The first time they captured Iserlohn, they couldn't just charge it (even though its defences and the Thor Hammer were locked out), the landing beacons went up. This time, the beacons didn't go up - but in the episode, one of the command centre crew says they've "lost control of the magnetic structure". Maybe this goes back to takemeout's idea that the landing beacons denote where the hydrometal has become permeable?

Could be. Like I said quite a few pages back I think, Hydrometal sounds alot like this stuff. Although its got some other interesting properties (it conducts thermal energy quite rapidly and well - beam impacts cause no noticable heating at all.)

Yeah. Its just frustrating that the guns look exactly the same

*shrugs* Maybe they do that for familiarity purposes. As long as you don't forget what kind of weapon your wielding, it probably would help with training on the weapons.

One other possibility is that the weapons are a combined laser/projectile weapon. It would make much less sense with chem propelled slugthrowers, but I think I vaguely remember tanks using railguns, or something.

Yeah it seems that way, missile kills we see are from direct hits.

Well, its just something to consider. I['m probably over-simplifying the issue of detection/tracking anyhow (Sensors are a pretty complicated issue by themselves, and there's alot of disagreement of a more "plausible" idea in sci fi. I also haven't put much time or effort into that either.) But in theory there's very little reason for them *not* to use missiles at the same or longer ranges than beam weapons, other than they just don't always have them or only certain kinds of ships have them and we don't see those ships firing them. With thousands of ships, either is possible.

If we go with the "they can reconfigure their ships armaments if they need to" idea, the idea they don't always carry them could have some standing.

Maybe. We see the same guns melting shit just fine too, so its hard to say what the explanation is.

Not really. If they really are firing neutron beams as some sources say, to be getting multi-LS ranges means they have some effectively magic means of accelerating and focusing the beam, which in turn could mean they probably have different kinds of beam "ammo" they might use. There's actually other instances that lead me to think this, not just the "sometimes thermal, sometimes not" thing. (The "running out of energy" bit puts me in mind of that, as does the fact that zephyr particles are triggered by beam weapons but not neccesarily by engine exhaust, which strikes me as *odd*)

Nah, just the standard blue beams:-

I was talking about the white pulse that destroys the center. At this point I'm convinced the broadside armaments either are a design holdover from some other "style" of fighting (sort of like during the transition between Age of Sail and WW1 style combat featured a blending of the two styles) or they are retained as a secondary "light" armament solely for point defense (fighters, gunboats, destroyers, etc.)

Well in truth I'm overly generalizing. Though yes they do have a smaller population than the Empire (25 billion to 13 billion). A standard FPA battleship crew is 660, whilst for a standard GE battleship its 726, so thats a point in the Alliance's favour, though their standard battleship design is smaller in every way. Its the flagships that have the bigger crew than Imperial flagships, but thats easy to explain considering how much extra broadside armament they have (for example Imperial flagships average in the ~900 men range, whereas most Alliance flagships are in excess of ~1100.

There's also the need to crew stationary emplacements like Iserlohn and others. Not to mention the supply fleets. That said, the bulk of those numbers will be soldiers (which should address manpower issues. You dont need highly technical skills to wield an axe or crossbow, really. But engineers and technicians would be a possible bottleneck.)

[Vympel]

I take it that was supposed to show beam and gunship atacks on it (what I witnessed against Iserlohn) didnt' see any missile attacks though. Or Thor's hammer. Those are other episodes I take it?

Whoops I got mixed up. Its Episode 43 (i.e. earlier in same battle).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj-BAQ8mxDo

(firing the Thor Hammer inside the hydro-metal happens around the 2 mins mark.)

No missile attacks, they're in Season 1 of the Gaiden. (Episode 43 & 46 = Ninth Battle of Iserlohn - relevant episodes of Season 1 Gaiden = 6th Battle of Iserlohn).

You can refer to the beginning of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg2kXFq33-U (first part of Ep 43) for what beam attacks normally do to Iserlohn's surface.

Could be. Like I said quite a few pages back I think, Hydrometal sounds alot like this stuff. Although its got some other interesting properties (it conducts thermal energy quite rapidly and well - beam impacts cause no noticable heating at all.)

Oooh cool.

*shrugs* Maybe they do that for familiarity purposes. As long as you don't forget what kind of weapon your wielding, it probably would help with training on the weapons.

One other possibility is that the weapons are a combined laser/projectile weapon. It would make much less sense with chem propelled slugthrowers, but I think I vaguely remember tanks using railguns, or something.

Yeah some of their AFVs have 120mm rail guns.

Not really. If they really are firing neutron beams as some sources say, to be getting multi-LS ranges means they have some effectively magic means of accelerating and focusing the beam, which in turn could mean they probably have different kinds of beam "ammo" they might use. There's actually other instances that lead me to think this, not just the "sometimes thermal, sometimes not" thing. (The "running out of energy" bit puts me in mind of that, as does the fact that zephyr particles are triggered by beam weapons but not neccesarily by engine exhaust, which strikes me as *odd*)

Especially considering the clear implication in that explanation is that weapons fire is hotter than engine exhaust.

[Simon_Jester]

Skilled manpower seems to be stressed, however. There's a brief segment in some point in the series where Yang and company get caught on a traffic jam on Heinessen because the guys running the show don't know their asshole from a pothole. It's mentioned that the drafting of educated persons is having a negative effect on running things back home.

True, but are those people being drafted into the Fleet, or assigned to the ship-production side of the industrial base? Consider the relative cost you'd expect from one of those ships, compared to the cost of a few years' training for a few hundred men. I get the feeling that warship production is consuming a much higher fraction of the powers' GDP, and therefore their skilled manpower, than actually crewing the fleets.

[Connor MacLeod]

Whoops I got mixed up. Its Episode 43 (i.e. earlier in same battle).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj-BAQ8mxDo

(firing the Thor Hammer inside the hydro-metal happens around the 2 mins mark.)

Yeah, I think I saw your battles commentary on that. I don't remember what I said about it. It's.. interesting certainly. frankly I'm not sure what to say all about it. The liquid metal doesn't behave in any thermal manner, so how is it "pushing" it into place? THere's also the general "ocean like" qulaity of it and the way the ships are bombarding it that just strikes a weird chord with me. Also, the bomb dropping.

And if that wasn't weird enough there was the bit around 1:30-1:40 where Thor's Cannon fires and "melts" a starship away. I say "melts" because the ship seems to undergo "solid to liquid" transformation without any evidence of thermal interaction. Contrast that with how starship beams melt/vaporize holes in the hulls of starships. Maybe that particular starship just had a very low melting point

No missile attacks, they're in Season 1 of the Gaiden. (Episode 43 & 46 = Ninth Battle of Iserlohn - relevant episodes of Season 1 Gaiden = 6th Battle of Iserlohn).

You can refer to the beginning of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg2kXFq33-U (first part of Ep 43) for what beam attacks normally do to Iserlohn's surface.

Yeah, you had some good images of that from the battles page that showed that too. There are quite a few things about the situation that I found odd. Like, for example, why no shield generators like starships mount? Part of me is thinking they're two completely different technologies. (not impossible, alot of the stuff concerning the hydro metal stations seems to be tied to Phezzan in some way, for example. Didn't they build the Necklace for the FPA?)

Also the Reuenthal vs Schonkopf Reunthal's pistol shot was a pretty good "non person" benchmark for pistol firepower - at least if it IS a laser. particle beams are messier in an atmoshpere.

Especially considering the clear implication in that explanation is that weapons fire is hotter than engine exhaust.

[/quote]

Wait, what?. Was that stated in the Gaiden?

[Vympel]

Yeah, I think I saw your battles commentary on that. I don't remember what I said about it. It's.. interesting certainly. frankly I'm not sure what to say all about it. The liquid metal doesn't behave in any thermal manner, so how is it "pushing" it into place? THere's also the general "ocean like" qulaity of it and the way the ships are bombarding it that just strikes a weird chord with me. Also, the bomb dropping.

And if that wasn't weird enough there was the bit around 1:30-1:40 where Thor's Cannon fires and "melts" a starship away. I say "melts" because the ship seems to undergo "solid to liquid" transformation without any evidence of thermal interaction. Contrast that with how starship beams melt/vaporize holes in the hulls of starships. Maybe that particular starship just had a very low melting point

Yeah lol, my view is that one must always make allowances for the animation

Yeah, you had some good images of that from the battles page that showed that too. There are quite a few things about the situation that I found odd. Like, for example, why no shield generators like starships mount? Part of me is thinking they're two completely different technologies. (not impossible, alot of the stuff concerning the hydro metal stations seems to be tied to Phezzan in some way, for example. Didn't they build the Necklace for the FPA?)

You know I used to think that, but its never explicitly stated that they do, but there's an implication that perhaps they did. When Kircheis destroys the Necklace in the Castrop Rebellion (supplied by Fezzan), the Fezzanis wonder if they should tell the Alliance about the weakness (they don't). Either the necklace is Fezzan technology, or its Alliance technology imported through Fezzan.

Also the Reuenthal vs Schonkopf Reunthal's pistol shot was a pretty good "non person" benchmark for pistol firepower - at least if it IS a laser. particle beams are messier in an atmoshpere.

Yeah there's one or two other times like that IIRC. Near the end of the series we see a shot scour a long line in a metal wall. Of course, in another episode Schonkopf uses his axehead to deflect a shot

Wait, what?. Was that stated in the Gaiden?

Yeah. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA13JHsueuo

(immediate start of this part)

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah lol, my view is that one must always make allowances for the animation

Sometimes you do, but its a very messy position to take since there's no way to have rules or guidelines handling it. I've personally hated the "common sense" approach because I feel most people have the common sense of belly lint.

You know I used to think that, but its never explicitly stated that they do, but there's an implication that perhaps they did. When Kircheis destroys the Necklace in the Castrop Rebellion (supplied by Fezzan), the Fezzanis wonder if they should tell the Alliance about the weakness (they don't). Either the necklace is Fezzan technology, or its Alliance technology imported through Fezzan.

Well, when they collaborated with the Empire's tech division to get Geiersberg mobile (insane that, btw.) you get the distinct impression Phezzan is considerably more advanced tech-wise than either the Empire or FPA. The Empire (and FPA) are both quite obviously glacial in technical innovaction, likely because of the demands of the war (but also on the Empire side they are influenced by the elitist views of the Nobles and the generla stupidity of te higher ups.)

Hell, it would even make sense for Phezzan to use technology as yet another means of controlling/manipulating both the FPA and GE the same way they use money/economics to do so.

Yeah. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA13JHsueuo

(immediate start of this part)]

Well it says "gas" which I take to mean like gasoline. It doesn't sound quite as bad as how you put it though, since I interpreted you to mean the weapons were innately "hot" or something. Although why energy weapons would and not engines... eh. Either their engiens aren't conventional (or they rely on some weird exhaust) or the particles artificial nature include some means of selectively triggering them. Maybe its not just energy, but needing to meet other certain criteria (certain power or intensity related issues with triggering it, like some fusion reactions do.)

On the plus side this does seem to hint they use both lasers and particle beam weaponry (Beam cannons I'm assuming refer to particle beams) I suspect the foreward gun mounts are particle beams and the broadside mounts are probably lasers (hence the turrets).

The vid above also is a good example of how agile LOGH ships can be outside of formation flying, they pretty much can sidestep or "hop" in any direction as well as rotate quite fast. They're quite agile for capital ships. And you get a case of structural durability against physical collisions and impacts.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Well it says "gas" which I take to mean like gasoline. It doesn't sound quite as bad as how you put it though, since I interpreted you to mean the weapons were innately "hot" or something.

I'm pretty sure the dub (all of them in fact) make a point to say that Zephyr Particles are not a gas in any way shape or form. They appear to be some kind of particle field that reacts to a certain amount of energy per units of volume. So the relatively unfocused jet stream of whateverthehell they used to push their ships forward just doesn't have quite the energy density-per-cubic-whatevers as an overall weaker, but far more concentrated, laser or beam weapon.