Anti-human bias in Empire??

[Peregrin Toker]

Something I don't understand is how the Emperor often is accused of racism because most of the Imperial leaders are human. However, Palpatine once took a Zabrak as his Sith Apprentice, also appointed a Chiss as Grand Admiral, and gave a Hutt the task of a frozen-down Rebel leader. It's probably not a matter of the Emperor. However, it's possible that there are many bigots amongst the other Imperial politicians - parallels can be drawn to when the Nazis promoted the Asian and Mediterranean races to "Honourary Germans" since they needed somehow to find out how to ally with Japan and Italy while declaring that all non-Nordic races should be purged from the earth.

[Smiling Bandit]

Probably used it as a way to soften up political opposition. I doubt the Emporer cared much for man or alien, but it wpuld have been a useful way to getting rid of much of his potential opposition.

[Wicked Pilot]

The whole "Empire is racist, sexist, and xenophobic" is an EU creation. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of canon to support that claim.

[Raptor 597]

Hmm, merely Rebel Propganda and Kevin J. Anderson.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Darth Maul and Thrawn were humanoids...if you still consider them to be aliens, compare them to say, a Mon Calamari. A real alien. Not some guy with horns on his head or blue skin and red eyes. You're starting to sound like Trekkies with their claim that Trek has many many diverse aliens that all have minor facial and skin differences to humans. But they're completely different. That's why they can actually breed humans and [insert alien here]. The Empire only wasted their time with the Hutts because of their power. Enslaving Wookies and Mon Calamari doesn't seem to fit with the claim the Empire isn't xenophobic.

And only going by canon evidence, all Imperial soldiers, even excluding the clones/Stormtroopers, are white human males. I made a huge rant about this a long time ago. I don't plan on it again.

Watch the movies again. Count how many women, black guys, oraliens you see in the EMPIRE. Anyone not in uniform does not count (bounty hunters, Hutt's guys, etc.). Then count how many women, people with different skin color, and aliens served in the Old Republic, the Jedi Order, the Rebel Alliance, and the Wing Guard (Bespin security guys). When you get tired of counting, only then will you realize the difference.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Sorry about that double-post.


No problem. All it takes is a single pm.

[Raptor 597]

Darth Maul and Thrawn were humanoids...if you still consider them to be aliens, compare them to say, a Mon Calamari. A real alien. Not some guy with horns on his head or blue skin and red eyes. You're starting to sound like Trekkies with their claim that Trek has many many diverse aliens that all have minor facial and skin differences to humans. But they're completely different. That's why they can actually breed humans and [insert alien here]. The Empire only wasted their time with the Hutts because of their power. Enslaving Wookies and Mon Calamari doesn't seem to fit with the claim the Empire isn't xenophobic.

And only going by canon evidence, all Imperial soldiers, even excluding the clones/Stormtroopers, are white human males. I made a huge rant about this a long time ago. I don't plan on it again.

Watch the movies again. Count how many women, black guys, oraliens you see in the EMPIRE. Anyone not in uniform does not count (bounty hunters, Hutt's guys, etc.). Then count how many women, people with different skin color, and aliens served in the Old Republic, the Jedi Order, the Rebel Alliance, and the Wing Guard (Bespin security guys). When you get tired of counting, only then will you realize the difference.

The Movies provide so little, only a Small View, whats not to say Females were serving at Logistics Posts, behind the lines, etc. similar to the US Army.There is no Canon Evidence toi prove or disprove this. And there is females in the Empire: Example Daala, maybe women don't take a interest in miitary srvice.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

The U.S. military actually let women fight today. And practically every unit in the U.S. military is a mix of different races and sexes to promote a sense of teamwork and unity among everyone. It shocks me that a military as powerful as the Imperial military doesn't practice this. More tactical stupidity. Integration was one of the best things ever to happen to the U.S. military. And even Daala had to sleep with Tarkin to get to where she was. And he held her back from her true potential. I think the same was Thrawn. I have a feeling they kept him on the Outer Rim just because he was a Chiss. I don't really know that much else other than those two instances, but I wouldn't be surprised to see more. I have little doubt in my mind the Emperor didn't choose Mara Jade only because she was an elite Force-sensitive warrior. I bet he slept with her as well. Why not? He's an evil Sith Master that did everything evil there possibly is to do, so why not be a rapist as well while he's at it? lol And because he had all of those women and aliens and different sorts as sort of his cabinet, where the hell did they all go in the OT? It is quite obvious Palpatine liked seeing white guys around him.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I only read Dark Apprentice once. I'm not sure if Daala slept with Tarkin to get the Gorgon, Basilisk, Manticore and Hydra, but apparently Tarkin noted her FIRST during tactical sims. He did the best he could. Besides, Daala seems to LIKE Tarkin IIRC, so it isn't really all that bad even if they got into bed sometimes.

The Emperor had enough respect for Thrawn that Thrawn lives after following the edicts of Sun Tzu and rejecting orders that inevitably leads to failure. I don't think many other people in the Empire could do that (reject the Emperor's orders,) human or not. Racism and pride is a powerful force that can easily overcome reason, and it apparently didn't happen in this case.

IRG, you should not randomly attribute rapist qualities to Palpatine based on the "logic" that he is evil. He might have made Holocausts, arranged the elimination of the Jedi and all, but that does not mean he is a rapist.

I think what really happened was this. The Emperor is NOT particularly racist (maybe mildly, but we all have a tiny bit of bias for certain qualities in us anyway,) but too many of the officials that came in were. Sending Thrawn to the Outer Rim. Was it ostracization? Or was it PROTECTION from jealous HUMAN peers that can't stand the fact that Thrawn was sitting in the uppermost rank of the Imp Navy?

Tarkin may be racist, but perhaps he's not sexist. He saw that Daala had potential, but there were too many sexist people under him. So, make her an Admiral, guarding an important installation, far from jealous eyes.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

The U.S. military actually let women fight today. And practically every unit in the U.S. military is a mix of different races and sexes to promote a sense of teamwork and unity among everyone. It shocks me that a military as powerful as the Imperial military doesn't practice this. More tactical stupidity. Integration was one of the best things ever to happen to the U.S. military. And even Daala had to sleep with Tarkin to get to where she was. And he held her back from her true potential.

Either that, or maybe simply because military is not popular career choice among Imperial women... True, the U.S. military let women fight today, but how much is the percentage of the women seen on the battlefield? How does it compare to, say, women who become lawyer or banker?

Frankly, I don't see the women's scarcity on Imperial military as indication of discrimation against women. Look on real world military today: how many women they have? Does it means that most of today's government discriminates against women?

[Jack Lain]

While I think we can extrapolate scientific explanations for effects we see, we cannot place our own social context on that of the movies. Yes, I know, GL is a white male living in America, but that isn't the point is it? Or is that the point you want to make?

If humans dominate the galaxy in SW, it is because they do. Since the majority of EVIL PEOPLE in the movies are portrayed as white male? Can we then suppose that the majority of evil people in our world are white male?
Come on. That is as ridiculous as any number of reverse statements I could make. Inane and incorrect, and in fact - insipid. To draw generalizations from any individuals actions as indicative to the entire group that he/she belongs to, as representative of that group is a moronic and idiotic way of viewing the world. Not all trade federation representatives feel as their leader does. We know this as not all whites agree with Bush right now.

I think to superimpose an image of the Earth and its problems over the SW galaxy are incorrect. (even if it is the psyche of GL)
We can do this with physics, chemistry, biology, etc... Because we think that those are constants. We accept them as such for the argument. That SW will kick ST sorry ass. But we may find one thousand years from now that Einstein was 100% wrong. Unlikely but within the realm of possiblity. And it is equally likely that one thousand years from now we may see that Women hold ALL seats of power and SW will be interpreted as a way to explain why women should rule and men should be regulated.

When you talk about Sci Fi, unless the author is a known racist or detractor, it is best to ignore the color, sex, and humanity of characters. Get off on the fact that you could be Luke, Ripley, Kirk, Ricco and Hope Hubris, that is what is cool. Not how they look on screen.
Its serves no positive purpose to make the claims that people made about TPM and its relation to Pearl Harbor. GL is an Earth bound human, forced to draw his inspiration from his memory and imagination - to make those types of jumps, is reactionary. The guy is a baby boomer or close enough to fit the definition.

Remember, movies are ultimately about making money. So the next time you ask why Luke is white, look at the industry, not the writer or the screened movie. As I once read, GL originally had Luke as a girl!!! He was supposed to be a she. That kind of throws the entire theory into the shitter doesn't it?

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Besides, Daala seems to LIKE Tarkin IIRC, so it isn't really all that bad even if they got into bed sometimes.

I don't care if she liked him. The point remains that she got where she was because she slept with him. And actually he kept her isolated from the rest of the galaxy at the Maw installation when she could have at least participated in battles like Thrawn did, and done something with her tactical knowledge. I believe Mr. Bean even said that Thrawn purposefully held her back from her full potential and stole her tactics to be a Grand Moff.

IRG, you should not randomly attribute rapist qualities to Palpatine based on the "logic" that he is evil. He might have made Holocausts, arranged the elimination of the Jedi and all, but that does not mean he is a rapist.

Randomly? It isn't random. Wouldn't you agree raping someone is an evil thing to do? So if he's done everything in the book from sadistic torturings, genocides, enslaving races, destroying worlds, starting wars, and is a Sith Master, why wouldn't he be a rapist as well? Could you answer that? Isn't it logical to assume that because of all of his power of the galaxy he wouldn't take advantage of Mara Jade, who was practically brainwashed to follow every single order he gave her? And you might think it is a little too racy for Star Wars, but is it really? What about Leia being Jabba's slave girl? It is obvious he raped her. That is probably why she took the time to personally kill him.

think what really happened was this. The Emperor is NOT particularly racist (maybe mildly, but we all have a tiny bit of bias for certain qualities in us anyway,) but too many of the officials that came in were.

Well then does it really matter? The Empire was still racist whether it was Palpatine's wish or everyone else's wish to be that way. But I really doubt a man who did not like racism would allow it to happen. And don't forget what the Empire is. It is a government ruled by someone with absolute power over everything. A totilitarian government. So everything Palpatine wants, everything Palpatine gets. And everything Palpatine doesn't want, everything Palpatine gets rid of. So it makes more sense that Palpatine is racist, sexist, and xenophobic.

Sending Thrawn to the Outer Rim. Was it ostracization? Or was it PROTECTION from jealous HUMAN peers that can't stand the fact that Thrawn was sitting in the uppermost rank of the Imp Navy?

That makes sense. But it doesn't agree with what is more likely; that Palpatine is racist, sexist, and xenophobic. And like I said earlier, Thrawn is a humanoid, not a real alien. But then again, if someone is so ignorant that he or she does not like people with darker skin color, they probably wouldn't like someone that was blue.

Either that, or maybe simply because military is not popular career choice among Imperial women... True, the U.S. military let women fight today, but how much is the percentage of the women seen on the battlefield? How does it compare to, say, women who become lawyer or banker?

Frankly, I don't see the women's scarcity on Imperial military as indication of discrimation against women. Look on real world military today: how many women they have? Does it means that most of today's government discriminates against women?

I could research and get the actual ratios and figures and comparisons, but the general idea is that if Lucas wanted to portray the Empire as non-discriminatory, then why does he make it contrast to all of the other organizations in the movies? Why would being a Rebel be more attractive to women, aliens, and other types of humans if the Empire offers much more and is non-discriminatory is beyond me. It is apparant that Lucas' vision was that the Empire only wanted white male humans in it. Period.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Just one thing.

If humans dominate the galaxy in SW, it is because they do.

It is because Palpatine made it that way. Before that, who really dominated the galaxy? No one. Virtually everyone was equal (or at least represented equally) in the Republic and Jedi Order, the two major powers of the galaxy.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Or was it artificial equality? You know, there might be only 1 Mon Calamari for ten million humans, but in order to be "fair," the 1 Mon Cal is considered a "species" and gets one vote, and so does ten million humans. In effect, a Mon Cal is about ten million times more influential. Is that fair? This is debatable.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

No one knows how the government actually works, only that all species have some form of chosen representation (they elect Senators) and can all speak out for their own interests and vote on issues and elect higher officials and whatnot. Everyone is equal in the Senate chambers. All of this was observed from TPM and Episode Two. Anything else about the workings of the Senate is a complete mystery.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

As opposed to Emperor Palpatine's "I'll make all those hard decisions for you" policy.

[Imperial Federation]

Equality in the Republic was a myth.
Look what happened when anybody tried to break away.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

What are you talking about? The Separatists didn't only break away but they were planning on attacking and overthrowing the Republic. They actually already did have some minor skirmishes with the Republic. The Senators still wanted peace. Not everyone wanted to raise an army, because they thought it would spark a civil war. They probably did not like the idea that the systems broke away from the Republic, but they did not want to go to war against them. They wanted to let them go in peace. However, there were some that wanted to create an army of the Republic in fear of an attack by the Separatists. And all the while, Palpatine pretended to be a peace-loving politician. Some text taken from starwars.com:

"Despite rosy recollections of a greater past, the Republic succumbed into undeniable decay. Its cumbersome bureaucracy slowed down any attempts at reform, and too many of its constituents had grown corrupt and complacent to enact any change. A feeling of disenfranchisement grew in the galaxy, particularly in outlying systems where heavy taxation was not balanced by improved services.

Into this disarray stepped a charismatic man named Count Dooku, a former Jedi, who sought to teach the Republic a lesson. The status quo could be upended and there was an opportunity for change -- radical change. Dooku led a popular Separatist movement that gained increasing momentum, and in two short years, he had a following of several thousand solar systems.

For the first time in a thousand years fear of open warfare crept into the Republic. The valiant Jedi Knights were too few to prevent the scattered flashpoints of violence sparked by the Separatists. Supreme Chancellor Palpatine was confident in peaceful resolution through negotiation, but not everyone was so levelheaded.

Alarmist Senators called for the creation of an Army of the Republic. The Military Creation Act was to be put to a vote, and many believed that the establishment of a Republic military would merely be the catalyst for an all-out civil war. The vote was delayed following an assassination attempt on the opposition leader, Padmé Amidala.

What none in the Senate knew was that the Separatists were gearing up for war. Count Dooku courted the massive engines of commerce in the galaxy -- institutions such as the Corporate Alliance, the Trade Federation, the Techno Union, InterGalactic Banking Clan and Commerce Guild -- with promises of reform and unyielding devotion to capitalism. In exchange, these bodies would commit their immense armies to the Separatist cause. With their droid armies scattered throughout the galaxy, the Separatists would overwhelm the Republic. Dooku felt confident that ten thousand more systems would join the Separatists.

In a darkened conference room on the Techno Union foundry world of Geonosis, Count Dooku made his offer, and the Confederacy of Independent Systems was formally established. This meeting of the minds was overheard by Jedi Knight Obi-Wan Kenobi, who warned the Republic of this alarming new development.

The Republic responded with a pre-emptive strike against the Separatists, attacking their world with a newly created clone army. In the explosive ground battle that ensued, the Clone Wars between the Separatists and Republic began."

So it was the Separatists' fault for not peacefully solving the problems of the Republic with civil disobedience or lobbying. Or just creating their own government without declaring war on the Republic. You always hear about how corrupt the Old Republic was and how bad the government was, but you never hear if anyone ever made at least a half-assed attempt to reform it. So that could mean the people really didn't care. As long as they had their freedoms and rights, they might not have minded whether or not there were corrupt politicians in office. If the Separatists never planned the attack, they could have lived in peace, with many other systems joining it, with ever-increasing growth, prosperity, influence, popularity, order, power, control, peace, happiness, etc. It was their own damn fault for screwing it all up. Eventually the Republic would get to be so weak that it would either desperately reform itself, die out completely, or would have been downsized in star systems enough to actually be an effective government. But of course, Palpatine was controlling the Separatists, so what do you expect?

[Tychu]

IRG CommandoJoe is right in everything about the racist empire is true and also, Darth Maul is a Iridonian. (Darth Maul: Saboteur)

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Anti-human bias would be a bad choice of words. Instead, you should have used "no anti-alien bias?".

Anyway, Most of these Imperials were by the same EU wiriters tring to label the Empire as racist and xenophobic. if they're racist, these excamples would be signs of hypocrisy.

[David]

EU also provides some arguments that the Empire wasn't xenophobic. Mostly in the trilogy and duology that Zahn wrote. It all depends on which author writes the book. It is really a reflection on our current society. From the writer's perspective, they try to portay the Empire as evil, and since most societies currently think that there can be few things worse than racism ( translated into hatred of aliens in SW ) that is what is inserted into the characters of the Empire.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Crap. I made a huge mistake that nobody seemed to notice.

I believe Mr. Bean even said that Thrawn purposefully held her back from her full potential and stole her tactics to be a Grand Moff.

I meant that Tarkin held Daala back, not Thrawn. My mistake.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Watch the movies again. Count how many women, black guys, oraliens you see in the EMPIRE. Anyone not in uniform does not count (bounty hunters, Hutt's guys, etc.). Then count how many women, people with different skin color, and aliens served in the Old Republic, the Jedi Order, the Rebel Alliance, and the Wing Guard (Bespin security guys). When you get tired of counting, only then will you realize the difference.

Well, most of the cast for the first three movies was from Great Britian.

[Peregrin Toker]

IRG CommandoJoe is right in everything about the racist empire is true and also, Darth Maul is a Iridonian. (Darth Maul: Saboteur)

I thought the Iridonians were called Zabraks in one of their native languages??

By the way, it might be that most of the Imperial leaders aren't too comfortable about odd-looking aliens, but Palpatine should be less bigoted. For example, his Clone army was made by aliens who looked like they recently crashed in Roswell, and according to AoTC, the Death Star was designed under supervision of the mosquito-like Geonosians and the reptilian Neimoidians were almost instrumental in Palpatine's schemes.

[SirNitram]

Watch the movies again. Count how many women, black guys, oraliens you see in the EMPIRE. Anyone not in uniform does not count (bounty hunters, Hutt's guys, etc.). Then count how many women, people with different skin color, and aliens served in the Old Republic, the Jedi Order, the Rebel Alliance, and the Wing Guard (Bespin security guys). When you get tired of counting, only then will you realize the difference.

Well, most of the cast for the first three movies was from Great Britian.

I recall a cartoon from the Falklands War, that ran in Britain....

'Falklands Theatre. Now Showing: The Empire Strikes Back!

With an All-British Cast!

<FinePrint>Pounds only, no Pesos</FinePrint>'