Intelligent Design - potential post 2012 resurgency

[SpaceMarine93]

If you guys had heard, Republican Rick Santorum had just recently stated his intention to run for president.

This man had been known for, among other more embarrassing things, trying to put Intelligent Design into the education requirements in his state. If he makes it into president, things really do not bode well for American science and research in the future.

To better emphasize the point I just made, let me suggests that in my view what he had been doing was to forcefully put that unscientific theory into the schools curriculum in a legal but dirty manner, like a minor poorly printed out point that nobody would notice as part of a package deal.

Creationists had, in my view, now simply tried to shamefully sneak their way into the curriculum without even going through the process of debates or scientifically verifying their hypothesis to prove that it is legitimate, however slim the chances are. Victory through stealth politics

This leads to my main point - why are creationists so persistent? They knew that in the long run, no matter what arguments they use, they would always be viewed as a bunch of morons by the rest of the world.

My hypothesis, which many would probably figured out by now, is that the supporters of creationism have simply viewed the whole ongoing controversy as a war of annihilation.

They saw Evolution and science in general as an encroaching threat to their own uncompromising and reactionary world views. They believed that if they do not try to somehow fight Evolution and Science in America's education they would see society crumbling down in an orgy of materialistic decadence and moral relativism.

So either Science and Evolution had to be and utterly defeated, or they would be crushed.

Perhaps they believe science and Evolution are part of some form of great liberal/socialist conspiracy to take over the world, just like Global Warming.

That's why they feel justified to brainwash children in 'Jesus Camps', put conservative rednecks in Texas Board of Education, rewrite textbooks, twist Creationism into a science with Intelligent Design and now tried to use Rick, or Rick on his own initiative, to put it in our education in a dirty way. All against what America stood for, by the by.

Personally, if this 'war of annihilation' view is right, and given the damage these morons would cause if they win, I think we are morally justified to get our asses in gear, take them seriously and do unto them what they are trying to do unto us.

We must act now to stamp out this plague of ignorance from America. Modern society depends on Reason and Science to win. There is no middle ground, no reconciliation.

Call me radical or absolutist, but its really kill or be killed.

AND WE MUST ACT NOW

[Simon_Jester]

Personally, if this 'war of annihilation' view is right, and given the damage these morons would cause if they win, I think we are morally justified to get our asses in gear, take them seriously and do unto them what they are trying to do unto us.

We must act now to stamp out this plague of ignorance from America. Modern society depends on Reason and Science to win. There is no middle ground, no reconciliation.

Call me radical or absolutist, but its really kill or be killed.

AND WE MUST ACT NOW

Wow. Interesting hyperventilation you've got going there.

What do you want to do, who do you want to do it to, who are you going to recruit to help you, and how in the name of all that's sane do you expect to pull it off?

Do you really think that systematic persecution is a good way to deal with pro-ignorance factions of the body politic? Have you read enough history to be able to convincingly describe how far such a campaign would have to go?

You have the mannerisms of a child who's just discovered that someone exists who disagrees with him, and has decided that naturally this Other must be destroyed. Every time you encounter something that isn't just like you, you throw a hissy fit and post something about how it has to be killed and "call me extremist, but we have no choice."

It's kind of sad.

[SpaceMarine93]

Well, at least I'm not the worst when it comes to it, sir. I am in a bad mood. I am thoroughly pissed at recent news, that's all.

Alright, I retract my statement. Maybe my description is black and white when it comes to this issue. But back to the main point, why are Creationists so persistent?

[Korto]

Maybe because they believe what they say?
If you believe that anyone who doesn't believe what you do is doomed to the fiery pits of hell, and you are a good person (ie, want to save as many people from the fiery pits of hell as you can), then you're going to try all you can to convert people, to rescue as many people as you can.
You're not being an arsehole, you're saving people's souls.
I'd look askance at those who believe in eternal damnation, and don't try in at least some way to convert those around them.

[wautd]

They knew that in the long run, no matter what arguments they use, they would always be viewed as a bunch of morons by the rest of the world.

No they don't. They are too ignorent to realize they are troglodites

Call me radical or absolutist, but its really kill or be killed.

AND WE MUST ACT NOW

Do you honestly think violence is the answer? Fundamentalism should be battled with reason and eduction. If you use lies and violence, you loose all credibility (like fundies do).

why are Creationists so persistent?

Because they truly believe their own shit? Because they need to use lies about the theory of evolution to make their talking snakes look less silly?
These are not rational or intelligent people you're speaking about. Also, if you invested a lot in some kind of faith it's hard to let go, even when all the evidence is pointing towards the other direction.

[Purple]

Call me radical or absolutist, but its really kill or be killed.

AND WE MUST ACT NOW

Amen brother!
And yes, I do see the irony.
PS. This post was simply meant to exploit said irony for comedic effect. Although I generally agree with what you said I don't think it can be reasonably done since any solution less than extermination would cut it. And the human cost of that would be too great to contemplate.

[SpaceMarine93]

The 'Kill or be killed' is a metaphor, and I was in a bad mood when posting it

[TimothyC]

It's kind of sad.

Indeed. Such an attitude often puts off the people on the fringes of faith by backing up the assertions of the people who say "See they are out to get us!" A sense of persecution is one thing, but when it's combined with calls for persecution it can take on a life of its own.

Yes Simon, I know I get caught up in a certain fervor myself sometimes but I hope I never get this far (although I probably do sometimes).

[AniThyng]

The 'Kill or be killed' is a metaphor, and I was in a bad mood when posting it

Kind of goes to show that no matter how rational and reasonable one can profess to be, raw emotion can still take over. Mob "justice" and irrational frenzy is not the sole province of religious nutters...

[someone_else]

Republican Rick Santorum had just recently stated his intention to run for president.

On a side note, does he have any decent chance of winning?

This leads to my main point - why are creationists so persistent?

GOD WANTS IT!!!!!!
More seriously, it allows them to feel less useless. They're not just "having a life like everyone else", they are "the Chosen of God to fight the Devil" by doing inane shit anyone can do. It gives them a reson to live. It's not a small thing.

Also, siege mentality does wonders. Literally.

Call me radical or absolutist, but its really kill or be killed.

Yeah, more or less like that. If you stop fighting (figuratively) to defend something you want, there will always be enough people ready to tear it down.
That's the only thing that matters. Laws can be changed, Consitution can be ignored, only moving your ass and doing what you can to oppose them (in a civil way if possible, like say legal actions and voting Obama agian in this case) will preserve what you want preserved.
It applies in any field.

[mr friendly guy]

Am I the only one who saw his "kill or be killed" statement as allegorical, given that currently Creationists haven't resorted to trying to kill their opponents?

[madd0ct0r]

if i read the same statement at the end of a religious rant, I'd be feeling outraged at best.

The thing is, we are winning. Worldwide, the population is slowly moving towards reason. Even in America, compare an 'averagely religious' person now to an 'averagely religious' person 50 years ago. Even bleeding Northern Ireland is starting to be more awake on Sundays.

They have a siege mentality for a reason, they're losing. And as long as we prevent them doing too much damage out of spite, we will continue to win. Hyperbole is not needed, just calm, reassuring voices.

[SpaceMarine93]

Am I the only one who saw his "kill or be killed" statement as allegorical, given that currently Creationists haven't resorted to trying to kill their opponents?

Its a metaphor. I really believe we should avoid using violence when dealing with ignorance. Perhaps education is the key to solve this controversy, or try to out shout the creationists.

And haven't creationists and Christian fundamentalists already resorted to violence against people holding opposite views? Like threatening and persecuting atheists in various towns in the Bible belt (CNN did a report back in 2005 i think) and bombing abortion clinics.

What i was trying to say is that I believe, based on what i read about them, that creationists sees this controversy as a war of survival where their views must prevail. If they did, e.g. like getting Rick Santorum-esque politicians to pass some laws supporting ID and creationism without anyone knowing, the consequences would be disastrous.

Its not just an American problem; creationist movements are starting to sprout in Europe as well. If this is not a disturbing trend i do not know what is

We cannot afford to give them a precedent, because the ability for America to remain the world's number 1 in scientific research and learning is at risk. I suppose no one wants go back to the dark ages?

[SpaceMarine93]

if i read the same statement at the end of a religious rant, I'd be feeling outraged at best.

The thing is, we are winning. Worldwide, the population is slowly moving towards reason. Even in America, compare an 'averagely religious' person now to an 'averagely religious' person 50 years ago. Even bleeding Northern Ireland is starting to be more awake on Sundays.

They have a siege mentality for a reason, they're losing. And as long as we prevent them doing too much damage out of spite, we will continue to win. Hyperbole is not needed, just calm, reassuring voices.

Well, that's a relief.

[General Mung Beans]

Anti-abortion violence isn't really different, in perspective, from Nat Turner's rebellion or John Brown's Pottawattomie Massacre or Harper's Ferry Raid.

But to the main point at hand. If the main goal is science and evolution not atheism/agnosticism/whatnot then perhaps the best bet is to encourage the old earth and theistic evolutionists in the churches especially considering modern YEC is a recent development-most 19th Century Evangelicals were at the least Old Earthers.

[Lagmonster]

This thread is a train wreck. Look, come back to me when you nail down exactly what you want to talk about and figure out how you want to say it.