Modern weapons required against Space Marine armor?

[wautd]

Which kind of today's weapons would be a treat to a 40K Space Marine? Assault rifles are offcourse out of the question, but what about RPG's, anti tank missiles, 50-cal machine guns, 20mm AA-guns, etc... ?

[madd0ct0r]

they'd all be a treat, space marines love being given weapons.

threat-wise isn't an auto-gun meant to be approximate equal to an assault rifle?

[Tritio]

Wasn't a Terminator Space Marine stepped on by a Titan once? And survived? Even if you're talking about a normal Space Marine, very few of our present day 'modern' weapons will do anything but irritate the Space Marine. Perhaps you'll be looking at Anti-Tank level weaponry onwards. I doubt the viability of RPGs, .50 caliber MGs, or even 20mm AA guns. Perhaps something like a direct hit with a 120mm AP or HESH.

Or ask Connor.

[SpaceMarine93]

Space Marine armor is noted to be at least as thick and protective as a modern tank armor, so I would say, on the safe side, at least a Javelin missile. Or get a tank destroyer

[Imperial Overlord]

they'd all be a treat, space marines love being given weapons.

threat-wise isn't an auto-gun meant to be approximate equal to an assault rifle?

Some autoguns come in 12mm and in most sources, are close to useless against Space Marine armour. An elderly human in human scale power armour (generally inferior to Marine armour) survived being hit a guncutter's autocannons and being buried in rubble created when said autocannons shredded the general area of the building he was in. If you want to kill Space Marines it's best to start with anti-material weapons like armour piercing rounds in a .50 cal rifle and go up.

[Purple]

I think 30+mm autocanon rounds should do it if they score a direct hit. Keep in mind that modern autocanons can fire anti armor (HESH and APFSDS) rounds and fire them at high rates of fire. I don't think even a space marine could stand up to something like a 3 round burst from a 30mm autocanon firing those.

[Ugolino]

Feudal Worlders once managed to kill a Space Marine. A Grey Knight, no less. It was off-screen, but it did happen, implying that primitive weapons are a threat to Marines in sufficient numbers. (Granted, said feudal worlders were mutants and heretics, but the sorcery was explicitly limited to the Allking's own forces, which weren't part of the force which killed the Knight.

[KhorneFlakes]

Feudal Worlders once managed to kill a Space Marine. A Grey Knight, no less. It was off-screen, but it did happen, implying that primitive weapons are a threat to Marines in sufficient numbers. (Granted, said feudal worlders were mutants and heretics, but the sorcery was explicitly limited to the Allking's own forces, which weren't part of the force which killed the Knight.

Already I want to kill the person who came up with that.

Unless the GK didn't have his armor on. Then it makes sense.

But if he did...*inhales*

RRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

[Simon_Jester]

I think 30+mm autocanon rounds should do it if they score a direct hit. Keep in mind that modern autocanons can fire anti armor (HESH and APFSDS) rounds and fire them at high rates of fire. I don't think even a space marine could stand up to something like a 3 round burst from a 30mm autocanon firing those.

It depends on the material properties of that armor, which are very hard to estimate.

As to the case of feudal worlders, NO idea how they did it. Any clues, or info about the terrain and circumstances? I mean, maybe they managed to wrestle one of his own krak grenades off his suit and blow him up with it or something.

Plus you can't assume that there are no modern weapons on a 40k feudal world, because of the sheer power of schizo tech.

[Black Admiral]

Given the complete lack of detail provided about Brother Caanos' death in Grey Knights, for all we know it was a case of "Quickly men, wear out his arms!".

Aside that, we're never told where he was injured; Space Marine armour doesn't provide complete coverage, there are still places it's vulnerable. It is, of course, rather a low-end showing, especially given other examples (like fifty Iron Snakes massacring enough orks - many in close-quarters combat - to cover an area of some 3 acres in ork corpses 6-7 deep, for no losses), but these things happen, given the breadth of 40k canon.

[HMS Sophia]

Are there soft bits on a marines armour? Like joints and such? Or are they magically tough as well.
Because otherwise, a sharp pointy thing in the armpit can hurt like a bugger.

Edit: I got ninja'ed. Thanks admiral.

You know, I would like to see an A-10 surprise a marine squad...

[Ahriman238]

Are there soft bits on a marines armour? Like joints and such? Or are they magically tough as well.
Because otherwise, a sharp pointy thing in the armpit can hurt like a bugger.

On early model armor yes. More recent designs tend to protect things like the joints and neck better.

There is a short story 'the Call of the Lion' in the HH anthology. In it two chapters of Dark Angels fight a modern-earth tech level world. Dozens of marines are wounded by tank cannon, artillery and repeated air strikes. Most of them are on their feet and fighting again a few minutes later, three die. Compare with three thousand dead, and another two thousand wounded. Assault rifles are shown to be capable of cracking the lenses of a battle-brother's helmet. Not enough to truly lbind him even, but enough to be really annoying. And this, the chaos of a night battle where neither side expected to fight, is probably the best-case scenario for the people of Byzanthius.
Also, one of the Chapter Masters believed that with two thousand Astartes, they could secure all major cities within a day, and crush all signifigant resistance within a week.

Thing is, Astartes aren't just power armor, they're men. Men with superhuman reflexes, superb military training and decades or centuries of combat experience. They're not going to stand around and play the target until you find a weapon that can kill them, they're going to keep moving, keep killing. If they find anything that they think can hurt them, they're not going to give it a chance to get a shot off.

[Purple]

It depends on the material properties of that armor, which are very hard to estimate.

Well, we do know that bolters and heavy bolters penetrate PA. And if I recall correctly they are 12 - 25mm rounds with a hart tip penetrator and HE charge. So a 30x165 sabot round that goes through 500mm RHA should do him in.

[lord Martiya]

Feudal Worlders once managed to kill a Space Marine. A Grey Knight, no less. It was off-screen, but it did happen, implying that primitive weapons are a threat to Marines in sufficient numbers. (Granted, said feudal worlders were mutants and heretics, but the sorcery was explicitly limited to the Allking's own forces, which weren't part of the force which killed the Knight.

Already I want to kill the person who came up with that.

Unless the GK didn't have his armor on. Then it makes sense.

That or the Knight saw their weapons and laughed so hard he choked himself.

[Connor MacLeod]

One thing to remember about armor is that it's not simple like it is in an RPG (Eg not "hit points" or "damage resistance" or stuff like that.) Even modern body armor, with solid plates, is not 100% foolproof (but virutally so.) There's always a chance of something getting through. Especially if it's taken previous hits. It can also depend on how a specific attack is meant to be defeated, and what sort of abuse it's put up to.

Another thing to remember is that Space Marines, especially Grey Knights, can sometimes be moved from battle to battle with little or no "down time" to recoup from a previous battle. Space Marines have a fantastic ability to restore power armor (even the rare stuff like Terminator or Dreadnought) from a pile of shrapnel to a virtually new suit - but they need time and access to the proper resources and facilities. Which they may not always have. They may have to rely on "in the field" repairs which could be anything from a Techmarine's refurbishment with the mateirals and equipment on hand, to simply slapping some repair cement on the breach.

Space Marine armor is noted to be at least as thick and protective as a modern tank armor, so I would say, on the safe side, at least a Javelin missile. Or get a tank destroyer

I would ask you for a source, but I'm pretty sure you're referencing the current slew of Space Marine codexes, which means you're actually referring to either Artificer armour, Terminator armour, or both, and not regular Space Marine armor.

As to the case of feudal worlders, NO idea how they did it. Any clues, or info about the terrain and circumstances? I mean, maybe they managed to wrestle one of his own krak grenades off his suit and blow him up with it or something.

Plus you can't assume that there are no modern weapons on a 40k feudal world, because of the sheer power of schizo tech.

As far as I remember from Grey Knights, it happened offscreen and all we're told is a line the dude died. They were (IIRC) surrounded by some thousands of feral world soldiery (some mounted some on foot) and they somehow managed to kill him. Probably not by piercing the armor, since even in that novel I vaguely remember arrows bouncing off it.

The only other potentially relevant detail is that the feral worlders were worshippers of Tzeentch, but there was no direct indication the troops (or their weapons) were enhanced in any way (or that warp magic, mutation or whatever played a role in it.)

For all we know they could have been anything from normal humans little better than real life tribesmen (with equipment to match) or they could have been quasi-Ogryn abhumans (its not all that uncommon for superhumanly large and strong people to grow up in 40K. The level of mutation, genetic and bionic augmentation that has gone on is pretty insane. Nevermind the warp, adverse enviroments like heavy-gravity worlds, etc.)

Given what we know from the accumulated evidence, we either chalk it up to large numbers of superhuman enemies getting in close and exploiting the weak points, or just them getting lucky somehow.

[Connor MacLeod]

Some autoguns come in 12mm and in most sources, are close to useless against Space Marine armour.

I know I'm probably going to go "oh duh" when I find out, but do you remember where that is stated? Autoguns kinda vary though.. in IA5 for example they're like 7-8mm and not much different than 7.62mm NATO. And there are smaller (like the caseless ammo variants, which often have huge magazine capacities and Rates of fire.)

That said, some autoguns also carry explosive (including mass reactive) rounds like mini bolters.

An elderly human in human scale power armour (generally inferior to Marine armour) survived being hit a guncutter's autocannons and being buried in rubble created when said autocannons shredded the general area of the building he was in.

I thought Eisenhorn's guncutter had heavy bolters? In any case this was that Witchhunter dude in Malleus wasn't it? I recall he was a pretty high up guy, especially if he had the clout to go after an Inquisitor of Eisenhorn's calibre (he wasn't at his highest yet, but he was still pretty veteran by that point.)

In any case, like with autoguns, autocannon can range from anything like 20-30mm (or lower I remember .50 cal autocannon mentioned in the Ghosts novels I think) to tank-gun grade (100-105mm, perhaps higher.) Hell so can stubbers (they can go from 8mm to 25mm or so, depending on your source.)

If you want to kill Space Marines it's best to start with anti-material weapons like armour piercing rounds in a .50 cal rifle and go up.

Probably. Explosive/proximity kill fragmentation weapons (in large quantities) and powerful marksmen/sniper weapons seem to be the best bets (unless the Space Marine knows about it, in which case he may fight in a way to deny easy hits.)

[wautd]

One thing to remember about armor is that it's not simple like it is in an RPG (Eg not "hit points" or "damage resistance" or stuff like that.)

In the Space Wolves short story in Tales of Heresy (HH), there's mention of a squad armor damage ranging between 10 to 18%. But I guess this might as well point to a disabled helmet or ripped off shoulder pad or something. I just found it weird to add a percentage to it.
(unless Dark Eldar have some kind of funky weapon that lowers armor integrity).

[Imperial Overlord]

I know I'm probably going to go "oh duh" when I find out, but do you remember where that is stated?

3rd or 4th edition main rulebook IIRC.

I thought Eisenhorn's guncutter had heavy bolters? In any case this was that Witchhunter dude in Malleus wasn't it? I recall he was a pretty high up guy, especially if he had the clout to go after an Inquisitor of Eisenhorn's calibre (he wasn't at his highest yet, but he was still pretty veteran by that point.)

In any case, like with autoguns, autocannon can range from anything like 20-30mm (or lower I remember .50 cal autocannon mentioned in the Ghosts novels I think) to tank-gun grade (100-105mm, perhaps higher.) Hell so can stubbers (they can go from 8mm to 25mm or so, depending on your source.)

That's the dude and Eisenhorn's guncutter packs autocannons if memory serves. Whatever the armament it was powerful enough to wreck part of a stone building and bury the witchhunter in rubble, but failed to penetrate the armour and kill someone who was much squishier than a transhuman super soldier. As for his rank, yes he was at least somewhat influential. Powerful enough to get his hands on a suit of power armour.

[dragon]

I've noticed that alot of the marines will go into combat without there helmets on.

An anti-material rifle might work.

[HMS Sophia]

I've noticed that alot of the marines will go into combat without there helmets on.

An anti-material rifle might work.

I think that's mainly a modelling thing rather than a fluff thing. Because otherwise, marines are intolerably stupid.

[Srelex]

I've noticed that alot of the marines will go into combat without there helmets on.

An anti-material rifle might work.

I think that's mainly a modelling thing rather than a fluff thing. Because otherwise, marines are intolerably stupid.

IIRC I think some Space Wolves, at least, do that in the fluff.

[HMS Sophia]

I think that's mainly a modelling thing rather than a fluff thing. Because otherwise, marines are intolerably stupid.

IIRC I think some Space Wolves, at least, do that in the fluff.

Yeah, but Space Wolves are hard/insane/hairy enough to get away with it

[Simon_Jester]

My impression is that Space Wolves fight with helmets off in situations where they value the use of their (unusually keen even by Space Marine standards) senses more than they value the protection and electronics of the helmets.

This gets carried away a bit in the novels, but there are certainly situations where it would make sense for the Wolves to keep the helmet off- like an infiltration mission where being able to smell the enemy is worth more than the armor protection.

Conversely, I've seen at least one novel, Brothers of the Snake, where it's a plot point when a particular daemon is invisible to electronic sensors, including the helmet sensors, because this makes the Marines unable to see it until they specifically take off their helmets in order to see with their bare eyes.

At which point one of them promptly suffers a head injury, but what can you do?

[Purple]

My impression is that Space Wolves fight with helmets off in situations where they value the use of their (unusually keen even by Space Marine standards) senses more than they value the protection and electronics of the helmets.

My impression of that was something like this. What you said makes sense, a lot of sense. And therefore it became tactical doctrine for these certain conditions. But as time passed, and I mean time, 10000 years is a lot of time the doctrine became more and more dogmatised like everything else in the empire loosing the original reason and becoming a parody of it self.

As in, "fight with helmets off in situations where they value the your senses is greater than they value the protection and electronics of the helmets" became "We are the children of the Rus! Our forfathers fought with their helmets off couze they were cool! Our senses are so strong and we are so uber we don't need helmets."

[Black Admiral]

Simon's right; Space Wolves routinely shed their helmets because they feel that their natural senses are better than the helm's autosenses; as one points out in Warriors of Ultramar when Uriel Ventris yells at him to put his helmet back on (although he only does that because the squad's lost their auspex and need to work out which way to go in a 'Nid Hiveship). The White Scars do the same thing occasionally, for the same reason.

Other Chapters usually don't remove their helmets in combat situations, unless the helmet's damaged or there is another reason (as in the example from Brothers of the Snake) to do so.