The Greek Indignants

[Metahive]

It is very, very hard for me to have any sympathy towards protestors who proudly display this:



So, swindle your way into the Eurozone, live way beyond your means, become a total money sink for other countries and these symbols come out once the house built on quicksand comes crashing down! It's always those pesky German Nazis, isn't it? Why go for an introspective when it is so much easier to just blame the evil foreigners, right?

[K. A. Pital]

So calling the rich nations names is enough to tar the entire protest? We've had this debate before not long ago, and it was definetely established that European banks (most notably Swiss and French, not German - so the ire is quite misplaced when we put it into a Germany vs. Greece angle) were complicit in the Greek debt debacle.

[Serafina]

So calling the rich nations names is enough to tar the entire protest? We've had this debate before not long ago, and it was definetely established that European banks (most notably Swiss and French, not German - so the ire is quite misplaced when we put it into a Germany vs. Greece angle) were complicit in the Greek debt debacle.

Given that Greece has a history of using Germany's Nazi history in order to gain political leverage (as in "you did that to us X year ago, you owe us), such behavior certainly carries a sour taste.


And for the purpose of clarification:
I do believe that Germany as a nation has a debt towards those directly affected by it's past misdeeds, especially the Holocaust. But that debt is to individuals, not to other nations. It is imperative that we remember the lessons of history and shape our behavior accordingly. That doesn't mean that you can make demands based on that guilt.

[Metahive]

So calling the rich nations names is enough to tar the entire protest?

Yes, totally. Especially when it's people knowing no better than breaking out the old Germans=Nazis card again to cheaply score points. How many of those youngsters protesting can even date WWII? Furthermore, are you implying that Germany's status as a rich nation is reason enough to just wail on it indiscriminately with the Hitler mallet?

We've had this debate before not long ago, and it was definetely established that European banks (most notably Swiss and French, not German - so the ire is quite misplaced when we put it into a Germany vs. Greece angle) were complicit in the Greek debt debacle.

So they ignored the actual culprits and went for the "easy" target then. That does not make it better in the least.

[D.Turtle]

For me the questions are the following: How much is the EU/Euro to blame for the situation to develop to its current state? How much is the EU/Euro to blame for the situation not getting better?

In my opinion, the EU/Euro is not really to blame for the development of the dismal state of the Greek economy. That is almost entirely their own fault. The worst that could be said is that the EU/Euro-countries didn't see (or want to see) just exactly how bad the situation of Greece was and let them continue running into the ditch.

I find the second question harder to answer. I think that Krugman has made some good arguments about how a default would not necessarily mean total destruction of the Greek economy. Other economies that defaulted on their debt (for example Argentina) saw pretty quick recoveries afterwards. In addition, though defaulting on their debt and going back to the Drachme would lead to rapid devaluation of that currency (and inflation), this would instantly make the country more competitive on the international arena. To achieve the same kind of adjustment while still in the Euro-club would need extremely drastic wage cuts, etc that obviously wouldn't be easily accepted by the population.

In effect, the policies of the Euro-club as a whole (low inflation, low debt growth) while good overall in the long run, are pretty much the exact opposite of what Greece needs.

Politically, letting Greece out of the Euro-club (or Greece leaving on their own) is unacceptable. The situation has to get a lot worse before that happens.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

So calling the rich nations names is enough to tar the entire protest? We've had this debate before not long ago, and it was definetely established that European banks (most notably Swiss and French, not German - so the ire is quite misplaced when we put it into a Germany vs. Greece angle) were complicit in the Greek debt debacle.

Doesn't Deutschbank loan a lot of money around the EU?

In my opinion, the EU/Euro is not really to blame for the development of the dismal state of the Greek economy. That is almost entirely their own fault. The worst that could be said is that the EU/Euro-countries didn't see (or want to see) just exactly how bad the situation of Greece was and let them continue running into the ditch.

The Euro can be said to be rather the bane of many of the EU countries which are deep in the rut. Greece has many endemic problems, but the inability to devalue the currency is hurting it.

[Narkis]

So calling the rich nations names is enough to tar the entire protest?

Yes, totally. Especially when it's people knowing no better than breaking out the old Germans=Nazis card again to cheaply score points. How many of those youngsters protesting can even date WWII? Furthermore, are you implying that Germany's status as a rich nation is reason enough to just wail on it indiscriminately with the Hitler mallet?

We've had this debate before not long ago, and it was definetely established that European banks (most notably Swiss and French, not German - so the ire is quite misplaced when we put it into a Germany vs. Greece angle) were complicit in the Greek debt debacle.

So they ignored the actual culprits and went for the "easy" target then. That does not make it better in the least.

Dude, are you for real? The protests are not meticulously organised. There is no central authority. Anyone can bring his own signs, and unless they're really bad, no one will tell him anything. And even then they might not care. I saw a guy yesterday who held a sign with the hammer and sickle, stating that "Our only weapon is Marx's writings". Does this mean that all the protesters are Marxists? There is also a picture, that I can't find at the moment, of a guy standing on a box, proselytizing for his little Christian cult. Maybe the protesters are Christian nutjobs, then? And I could go on, and on. The only thing that can be said for certain about all of them is that they want the government to shape up. But let's just condemn them all from a single inflammatory photo. After all, there are no other media of the movement available, right?

By the way, I can't help but notice that something's written under the swastiga, and it has been cropped out. And I should note that the people at the photo are not waving. That's a Greek obscene gesture, called "Moutza", right under "the finger" in severity. And they're all aimed squarely at the parliament.

And as for the problems of Greece: I won't deny that there are many. Corruption, tax evasion, blatant disregard of the laws, a bloated public sector that's used mostly as a joke rather than anything else, etc, etc. Not to mention all the scandals that have come to light about politicians who siphoned obscene amounts of money off the state and got away scot-free. And you won't find a single Greek who would disagree with these. But Papandreou is not tackling any of these issues. He's doing nothing to fix what is broken. His whole economic policy so far can be accurately summarised as "rise taxes, cut wages, roll back all the rights the workers have won in the past century. Also, give money to big business. This will all work out in the end, I promise!" Can't you see why the Greek people are pissed?

[Metahive]

Anyone can bring his own signs, and unless they're really bad, no one will tell him anything.

Your intercultural sensibility is showing. Playing the Nazi card gratuitously is indeed really bad! Maybe you are not in the know but various nations have been playing this card for ages to score cheap points. Even that fascist ally Berlusconi once tried to make use of it when he was called out in the European parliament FFS. We here in Germany happen to be extremely touchy about this issue for a good reason.

And even then they might not care.

Like that makes it any better. Contemptuous indifference isn't something laudable either.

[Thanas]

I do not find it fair to characterize Greek politics by a few Nazi signs. I am sure we also take exception if some idiots take certain less than fortunate statements by our own newspaper and use those to characterize a whole country.

And as for the problems of Greece: I won't deny that there are many. Corruption, tax evasion, blatant disregard of the laws, a bloated public sector that's used mostly as a joke rather than anything else, etc, etc. Not to mention all the scandals that have come to light about politicians who siphoned obscene amounts of money off the state and got away scot-free. And you won't find a single Greek who would disagree with these. But Papandreou is not tackling any of these issues. He's doing nothing to fix what is broken. His whole economic policy so far can be accurately summarised as "rise taxes, cut wages, roll back all the rights the workers have won in the past century. Also, give money to big business. This will all work out in the end, I promise!" Can't you see why the Greek people are pissed?

I can see why the people are pissed, after all, the rest of Europe is pretty pissed about that as well. But protesting against those damned foreigners is not a good idea in that context, as they sure as heck neither elected Papandreou nor dictated policy to him.

[Metahive]

Maybe I'm overreacting but I just can't stand it when this particular card is played. Even some of own relatives in Korea think doing the German Salute in my presence is o so uproariously funny, I'm just so freakin' sick and tired of it.

[D.Turtle]

The Euro can be said to be rather the bane of many of the EU countries which are deep in the rut. Greece has many endemic problems, but the inability to devalue the currency is hurting it.

Did you read my post?

The entire second half of it is directly about that.

[Narkis]

Anyone can bring his own signs, and unless they're really bad, no one will tell him anything.

Your intercultural sensibility is showing. Playing the Nazi card gratuitously is indeed really bad! Maybe you are not in the know but various nations have been playing this card for ages to score cheap points. Even that fascist ally Berlusconi once tried to make use of it when he was called out in the European parliament FFS. We here in Germany happen to be extremely touchy about this issue for a good reason.

And even then they might not care.

Like that makes it any better. Contemptuous indifference isn't something laudable either.

So let me get this straight. One idiot brings a stupid sign with him. Those close to him don't care enough to take it down, since, after all, having warm bodies in the demonstration is much more important than offending your precious sensibilities. The other 100,000 people have displayed no such sign. They probably hadn't even seen the stupid thing until it was published in Germany. And now all the protesters are teh suck because they play the Nazi card gratuitously? Can you not see what's wrong with your conclusion?
Perhaps I should demonstrate using another example: Jamel is a village in East Germany. It had been taken over by Neonazis. Last I heard, the authorities hadn't expelled them yet. Ergo, all Germans are Neonazi scum, and we should stop them before Hitler2.0 takes over and stars WW3!

I can see why the people are pissed, after all, the rest of Europe is pretty pissed about that as well. But protesting against those damned foreigners is not a good idea in that context, as they sure as heck neither elected Papandreou nor dictated policy to him.

It is regretful, but quite unavoidable at the moment. They foreigners may not have dictated policy to Papandreou, but everyone here thinks they did. It's the one thing that our PM did right, until recently: Directing the people's wrath on a handy scapegoat. After all, what he's done is the exact opposite of what he promised in the elections. One of his famous mottoes at that time was "Money exist". It's become more of a punchline since then. And for many, it used to be easier to think that our poor guy has good intentions, but he has his hands tied by the unreasonable demands of these evil foreigners.

[K. A. Pital]

So what? People bring stupid signs to protests. Also, there might be dumb, intolerant or even downright bad people among the protestors. I bet there were more than a few Muslim fundies in the protests against Mubarak. Does it invalidate the entire civil protest? I believe no.

[Metahive]

So let me get this straight. One idiot brings a stupid sign with him. Those close to him don't care enough to take it down, since, after all, having warm bodies in the demonstration is much more important than offending your precious sensibilities. The other 100,000 people have displayed no such sign. They probably hadn't even seen the stupid thing until it was published in Germany. And now all the protesters are teh suck because they play the Nazi card gratuitously? Can you not see what's wrong with your conclusion?

I already said that I might have overreacted to the Swastika, but that doesn't change the fact that the protests are about shifting the blame towards other nations, the other aspect of it I complained about.

Perhaps I should demonstrate using another example: Jamel is a village in East Germany. It had been taken over by Neonazis. Last I heard, the authorities hadn't expelled them yet. Ergo, all Germans are Neonazi scum, and we should stop them before Hitler2.0 takes over and stars WW3!

Guess what, I created a thread about that very town here and loudly made my complaints about the situation there and lack of action of the officials known. So no double-standard or hypocrisy on my part here.

[Narkis]

I already said that I might have overreacted to the Swastika, but that doesn't change the fact that the protests are about shifting the blame towards other nations, the other aspect of it I complained about.

Oh, I didn't see where you said that. I'm sorry about my answer if you'd already admitted you overreacted. But you still misunderstand the main point of these protests. It's not about shifting blame, or assigning blame, or accepting blame. It's about getting the government to stop screwing up so massively. Almost every single slogan on every video I've seen has been directed at the government, the parliament, and their members. Couple ones I remember are "Thieves! Thieves! Thieves!" and "Burn, burn, the parliament the whorehouse!". Some of the anger is directed at the officials of the IMF and the ECB and the EU who came here, yes. But that's because the people honestly believe they're partly to blame for Papandreou's policies. But this pales before the hate directed at our current political establishment.

Guess what, I created a thread about that very town here and loudly made my complaints about the situation there and lack of action of the officials known. So no double-standard or hypocrisy on my part here.

I should've probably put a smilie on that. Or maybe explained what I meant a little better. In my defense, I thought it was obvious that I was joking. Now, I wasn't accusing you of hypocrisy, or double-standard. I was accusing you of a hasty generalisation with no evidence.

[PainRack]

Yessir. Big mean Germany is all out to oppress Europe and has nothing better to do but make an example out of the poor Greeks by giving them money. In case you are ignorant of how the EU works, Germany has precious little to no tools of influencing the laws the Greek parliament passes or in how to tell the Greeks to run their own country. Angela Merkel cannot tell the Greek Government to raise taxes (well, I suppose she can tell them, but she cannot enforce it).

Thanas, how did you feel about the IMF 'bailouts' of east Asian countries in the 1990s? In case you don't know how the IMF works, they couldn't tell those governments to raise taxes - OH WAIT, yes they could, as he who pays the piper plays the tune!

That's a totally different situation.
Germany is part of the Euro and it loaned Greece the money. Its now attaching conditions to said loans.

The IMF however was able to dictate countries do what it wanted because if said countries refused to do so, it wouldn't lend them money. And for countries on the last brink of resort..... well...


Also, to protray the IMF as dictating they raise taxes is a tad....... inaccurate. The IMF bailout was based on austerity programmes.... so austere that it included weird claims such as Indonesia must buy US grain and end its clove monopoly.
On one hand, a end of blatent monopoloism to introduce free trade, on the other, no free trade:D

[Todeswind]

It is very, very hard for me to have any sympathy towards protestors who proudly display this:

...snip...

So, swindle your way into the Eurozone, live way beyond your means, become a total money sink for other countries and these symbols come out once the house built on quicksand comes crashing down! It's always those pesky German Nazis, isn't it? Why go for an introspective when it is so much easier to just blame the evil foreigners, right?

Oh honestly the use of referring to the group you disagree with as being a Nazi is a political standard at this point. I'd be more surprised by the absence of equating someone you disagree with to satan/hitler/stalin than its presence.

[Starglider]

Germany is part of the Euro and it loaned Greece the money. Its now attaching conditions to said loans.

Germany is attaching conditions to fresh loans. There is nothing that can be done about the past loans; Greece either chooses to repay them or chooses to default.

The IMF however was able to dictate countries do what it wanted because if said countries refused to do so, it wouldn't lend them money. And for countries on the last brink of resort..... well...

Most of them, Greece certainly, are on the brink due to their own corruption, populism and short-sightedness. The IMF is certainly no white knight - frequently it acts as a pretty blatant tool for neo-colonialism - but it is ludicrous to claim that the countries in question don't have a choice.

[Narkis]

(Reuters) - The Greek government warned dissenters in the ruling party on Wednesday against rejecting an austerity plan agreed under a new international bailout deal, after data showed the depth of the nation's economic crisis.

Prime Minister George Papandreou is meeting senior members of his socialist party (PASOK) to try to stem an outbreak of unrest over the social cost of the bailout before it turns into a full-scale parliamentary rebellion.

Tens of thousands are protesting regularly against waves of austerity demanded by the European Union and IMF, as well as corruption and state mismanagement, while workers at state firms earmarked for privatization have called a strike for Thursday.

But government spokesman George Petalotis dismissed suggestions that Papandreou would take the "easy" way out of the crisis by calling early elections. These would be a likely consequence if any PASOK backbench rebellion led to parliament rejecting the government's medium-term economic plan.

"Everyone has a responsibility, today more than ever, for the future of this country," Petalotis told Real FM radio.

PASOK says it inherited the debt and budget crisis when it defeated the conservative New Democracy party in 2009, but has repeatedly stressed it aims to serve its full four-year term.

"For us it would have been very easy to say 'let's have elections, why carry this bomb we inherited to the end'?" he said. "Elections would have worse consequences for the country."

Opinion polls show PASOK's lead over New Democracy has vanished, suggesting that new elections could produce a stalemate during which the latest IMF/EU rescue could unravel.

Papandreou is meeting PASOK's political council, hoping to win their backing for the medium-term plan. This lays out years of austerity and faster privatization, agreed with the EU and IMF to secure the second financial rescue in just a year.

Greeks are suffering. Unemployment climbed to 16.2 percent in March, the highest in the euro zone after Spain, data showed on Wednesday. Industrial production tumbled 11.0 percent year- on-year in April as Greece suffers its third year of recession, public spending cuts and higher taxes.

MORE BAD NEWS?

More bad news is likely on Thursday when economic output data for the first quarter is released. An earlier flash estimate showed GDP shrank 4.8 percent from the first three months of last year, on top of sharp drops in 2009 and 2010.

Sales of state assets to help reduce Greece's 340 billion euro government debt form a central part of the medium-term plan, but workers are putting up a fight.

Employees of state companies down for privatization, such as power utility PPC, telecoms company OTE and water companies EYDAP and EYATH, will walk off the job for 24 hours on Thursday.

Greece's main private and public sector unions, GSEE and ADEDY, have called on workers and the elderly -- whose pensions have been cut -- to rally in central Athens in solidarity.

Until now dissent has been muted among the ruling Socialists. But Greeks have staged nightly protests for a fortnight in the capital's Syntagma Square to hurl abuse at the parliament building, with numbers hitting over 80,000 on Sunday.

Many PASOK backbench members of parliament appear to be taking fright. Finance Minister George Papaconstantinou suffered a roasting when he presented the medium-term plan to senior party members at a meeting that lasted about 12 hours.

Greece, which has a huge budget deficit but has been frozen out of debt markets for a year, seems to have no alternative but to depend on the EU and IMF and accept their demands.

One PASOK lawmaker, Paris Koukoulopoulos, recognised that the minister's report on achievements so far had been sincere. "But what's important is that we have emptied the banks of deposits and filled the city squares with people," he said.

Newspapers reported that Papandreou had ordered his finance minister to take the attacks on the chin and allow the backbenchers to vent their rage, in the hope that they will cool down eventually and vote for the plan in parliament.

The government wants parliament to decide on the plan before the end of this month. Many PASOK lawmakers would risk losing their seats if early elections were held, meaning that they may have second thoughts about voting against it.

(Emphasis mine)

From Reuters

Some commentary on the above:

"We inherited the issues" is the single most common excuse for our governments when they get caught failing to meet their promises. The previous one used the phrase "Scorched earth" extensively. Another soundbite that has become a joke.

The protesters have been trying halfheartedly to close off the parliament for days. Many of its members were delayed from entering or leaving, while hundreds or people around them hurled verbal abuse at them. There are calls to blockade the building tomorrow, when the government's new plan is to be discussed, and everyone is planning to strike.

Papaconstantinou suffered the worst embarrassment ever on the parliament floor. About 70 PASOK parliament members participated in the roasting, out of 158 total. The 12 hours mentioned were almost all spent when one member after another raised to the podium and denounced him and his program. Now, dissent on this scale among one party is unprecedented in Greece. In every other occasion in most parties, the party line is king and no one disagrees with the party leader in public. And usually, those few who are brave enough to do that get immediately expelled. I cannot remember another PM struggling so hard to get support from his own party. It looks like the protests are beginning to have an effect.

And speaking of an effect, the parliament approved measures to have former ministers and parliament members officially charged with counts of corruption, money laundering, and more. Another unprecedented occasion. Parliament and government members are protected by law from any charges about actions they took in office, no matter how blatantly illegal they were. A vote among the parliament is required to lift this protection, and so far in all such votes our politicians have refused to betray their own.

The protests are now on the 15th day, and going strong. Sunday is still the record, but there are many more people than the previous weekdays. A structure of "open democracy" has began to emerge in the past days, where there is a central platform with a mic, and everyone has the right to speak for 3 minutes. And yesterday there were speeches by economists there, followed by discussions with the "indignants".

Sources in English are hard to find, unfortunately. I could provide Greek ones, but automatic translators don't do such a great job.

[Chirios]

A question for the Europeans and economists on the board: why do the bailouts from Europe come with strings attached in the form of austerity measures? Is this actually expected to improve the Greek economy and their long term ability to repay the debt?

tbf, Greece has been overspending ridiculously in the last few years. But that doesn't explain why they're forcing austerity measures onto Ireland and Spain as well.

[Crown]

Maybe I'm overreacting but I just can't stand it when this particular card is played. Even some of own relatives in Korea think doing the German Salute in my presence is o so uproariously funny, I'm just so freakin' sick and tired of it.

It is not the 'German Salute'. Even if Narkis already hadn't explained to you exactly what it was, it looks nothing like it. You're displaying are remarkable ignorance on a culture/country you're commentating on since that gesture is so fucking common and prevalent in Greek culture/society that anyone with a passing familiarity with the nation would be able to recognise it for what it is.

[Metahive]

I was talking about my relatives taunting me with it, not about the Greek doing so in the photo! Learn to fucking read! The "even" part clearly relates to even my own relatives knowing no better but playing of the Nazi card in relation to Germany.

ETA:
You really think I don't know what a German salute looks like?!? Thanks for that, buddy.

[Narkis]

Greece: General strike begins as MPs debate austerity

Greek police have thwarted efforts by striking workers to encircle parliament and block access for MPs due to debate new austerity measures.

Thousands of demonstrators have gathered in Syntagma Square in Athens.

Prime Minister George Papandreou is trying to push through fresh policies as part of the conditions for the EU and IMF's bail-out package.

Ports, public transport and banks are badly disrupted as the main public- and private-sector unions go out on strike.

State-run companies have also joined the walkout, while hospitals are only offering emergency care. However, airports are operating normally after air traffic controllers called off their strike.

It is the third general strike in Greece this year.

A top credit agency has cut Greece's rating, making it the least credit-worthy nation out of 131 countries it monitors.

The Greek government said the downgrade by Standard & Poor's - from B to CCC - ignored its efforts to secure funding.

In order for the next tranche of rescue loans to go through, parliament must adopt the new austerity plan by the end of June.
'Fight the battle'

Between 4,000 and 5,000 protesters have gathered outside parliament, reports the BBC's Malcolm Brabant, who is in Syntagma Square.
Continue reading the main story
Analysis
image of Malcolm Brabant Malcolm Brabant BBC News, Athens

Gathered outside Greece's parliament and making obscene gestures, members of the so-called Indignant movement chant "Kleftes" (or "thieves") at the country's politicians.

Their intention and that of the unions taking part in the general strike, is to force the government to throw out the new austerity programme.

Prime Minister George Papandreou has no intention of doing so. In a recent interview he compared Greece's plight to that of a country at war, saying mistakes are made, battles are lost and combatants are wounded, but he said he was determined to win.

The country is losing faith in his leadership, however. For the first time in years, his socialist party is lagging behind the opposition conservatives in opinion polls.

They were planning to encircle the building to prevent MPs from getting in for the debate.

However, police sealed off the roads leading to the square and created a pathway for deputies.

The Greek demonstrators are calling themselves the "indignants", linking themselves to Spanish anti-austerity protesters who set up camps in Madrid and Barcelona until they were removed by police last month.

The square is awash with Greek and Spanish flags, as well as banners reading "Resist" and the battle cry from the Spanish civil war, "No pasaran" (they shall not pass), the AFP news agency reports.

Previous general strikes have been spoiled by violent outbreaks but the unions will want to ensure that the Indignant movement, which has caught the national imagination, is not tainted by fighting, our correspondent says.

Mr Papandreou faces the risk of a backbench revolt over the plans.

One MP defected from Mr Papandreou's Pasok party on Tuesday, leaving it with only 155 of the chamber's 300 seats.

"You have to be as cruel as a tiger to vote for these measures. I am not," George Lianis, a former sports minister, said in a letter to parliament's speaker announcing his departure from the parliamentary group.

At least one other Socialist MP has threatened to vote against the new programme of cuts and privatisation of state assets.

Another 14 MPs are wavering in their support for the austerity plan, our correspondent says.

The government has appealed for consensus over its proposals, which would see 6.5bn euros (£5.7bn; $9.4bn) in tax rises and spending cuts this year.

"Every Greek, particularly the new generation, demands that we fight the battle with all our power, a battle to avoid a disastrous bankruptcy which will undermine the future of the country," government spokesman George Petalotis told reporters.

"We are fighting the battle to serve the common good, in the most crucial moment in the country's modern democracy."

The EU and IMF are demanding the measures in return for the release of another 12bn euros in aid next month which Athens needs to pay off maturing debt.

Source

[Thanas]

Well, let's look how they enjoy national bankruptcy then.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, let's look how they enjoy national bankruptcy then.

And how much money European banks stand to lose...