Uprising in Libya

[Sea Skimmer]

No up to date maps so far, the rebel site that makes them has said basically, they don’t have greatly more information then what you see in foreign media in the first place, and they aren’t going to make new maps without major changes backed by hard evidence.

The Brega and Misrata fronts remain 95% static with NATO ordering the rebels not to advance, and yet launching only very raids in support of them, the rebels making small pushes each day at Misrata, and then pull back. Trouble is brewing between rebel and NATO command on this as it’s been going on for a couple weeks now. In the western mountains some kind of minor counter attack was beaten back from Bir Ayyad; other then that the situation remains confused with many penny packets of troops on both sides fighting across a very broad front. The Brega front is so static some rebels say they have not fired a shot or seen anyone wounded in 3-4 weeks. Basically they are dug in at the edge of pro Qaddafi forces artillery range and just waiting. I would assume this is on the basis of saving as many men and as much war material as possible for an offensive.

But NATO did blow the shit out of Tripoli in the last day, at least 40 bombs fell, and some claim as many as 80, on the 7th mostly during daylight and apparently 10 more early on the 8th so far. It looks like NATO wants to polish off the fixed military infrastructure of Tripoli before it turns to supporting a renewed rebel ground pushes.

Qaddafi was sufficient enraged by all this bombing on the 7th to phone in to Libyan State TV... he raved about needing more human shields (paraphrase, but its what he was directly asking for) to protect the Bab al Aziziya which had a major chunk flattened in the attacks. He talked for about 9 minutes and then hung up as literally more NATO planes were heard over Tripoli at that time and began attacking stuff. This was his first speech to the Libyan people since mid May when he spoke for all of about 60 seconds on the radio. In-between then and the only thing to come out was him meeting South African President Zuma in the Bab al Aziziya. It has been claimed the quest house he had that meeting in was among the buildings flattened by many bombs fell on a military garrison area in the compound which was burning nicely. Either they hit Qaddafi's top secret used tire pile, or else major fuel tanks inside the compound for generators and vehicles.

[Edward Yee]

Qaddafi was sufficient enraged by all this bombing on the 7th to phone in to Libyan State TV... he raved about needing more human shields (paraphrase, but its what he was directly asking for) to protect the Bab al Aziziya which had a major chunk flattened in the attacks.

According to Neal Mann of Sky News, the government "offered" a trip to the Bab al Aziziya to journalists, though "Most journalists take what seems the obvious decision and not go on the government trip, a few are." Within the hour, though:

Just tried to ask gov spokesman Moussa Ibrahim a question & he told me 'go to the location of the bombardments or don't ask questions'

To which Euronews' José Miguel Sardo ("Portuguese media correspondent in France") replied:

It seems #Gaddafi wants to add journalists to his "crew" of human shields.

[Raj Ahten]

BBC is reporting a fresh rebel offensive around the Misrata front with Pro-Gaddafi forces responding with rocket fire. So far word of only around a dozen or so dead. Sounds like the rebels are trying to push out on several directions around the city but who knows if this is actually a major push or not.

We will just have to see if anything develops over the coming days. It looks like the rebels may have gotten tired of waiting, as this Guardian article foreshadowed. Basically the rebels thought they were ready for an offensive while NATO didn't want them to cross certain lines yet to avoid bombing civilians or rebel targets.

[Block]

BBC is reporting a fresh rebel offensive around the Misrata front with Pro-Gaddafi forces responding with rocket fire. So far word of only around a dozen or so dead. Sounds like the rebels are trying to push out on several directions around the city but who knows if this is actually a major push or not.

We will just have to see if anything develops over the coming days. It looks like the rebels may have gotten tired of waiting, as this Guardian article foreshadowed. Basically the rebels thought they were ready for an offensive while NATO didn't want them to cross certain lines yet to avoid bombing civilians or rebel targets.

It's not an offensive so much as an attempt to get the shelling to stop. Qadaffi's forces had reinforced its troops around the city and started shelling the crap out of it from 3 directions.

[Sea Skimmer]

Its pretty damn unclear what is going on around Misrata with descriptions of both sides having made ground attacks, large scale pro Qaddafi shelling is pretty certain. 36+ rebel casualties and reports that NATO helicopters may have made the first appearance around the city.

It appears everything left worth exploding the Bab al Aziziya was indeed completely decimated yesterday; though the compound has this one block of relatively modest houses which are home to the families of some of Qaddafi’s goon squad’s, I’d assume that wasn’t flattened.

To which Euronews' José Miguel Sardo ("Portuguese media correspondent in France") replied:

It seems #Gaddafi wants to add journalists to his "crew" of human shields.

That actually worked for Qaddafi before on some of the earlier raids on the Bab al Aziziya, they bused in reporters quickly enough that NATO aborted planned follow up strikes.

[Raj Ahten]

Its pretty damn unclear what is going on around Misrata with descriptions of both sides having made ground attacks, large scale pro Qaddafi shelling is pretty certain. 36+ rebel casualties and reports that NATO helicopters may have made the first appearance around the city.

Yeah making the rounds of the usual sources just about every one of them had a different interpretation of what exactly is going on around Misrata. Should be interesting to see what else the helicopters can do as well. So far it looks like NATO has been damn careful about using them so far (in night raids for instance). With all the manpads and heavy machineguns/cannons around I'd be careful flying helicopters there too.

[wautd]

I.C.C. Chief Prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo: Gaddafi Personally Ordered Mass Rape, Bought Containers of “Viagra-Type” Drugs for Troops

Luis Moreno-Ocampo, the chief prosecutor at the International Criminal Court, says Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi personally ordered mass rapes and bought containers full of sex drugs for his troops to use to accomplish the horrific task.

Gaddafi, who is desperately trying to quash an uprising against his rule that began in February, is accused of using rape as a weapon of war to terrorize the population into submission.

According to the Telegrapgh, Moreno-Ocampo may ask for a new charge of mass rape to be made against the Libyan leader following the discovery of this new evidence.

A decision from judges regarding charges of crimes against humanity is also expected within days.

“Now we are getting some information that Gaddafi himself decided to rape,” the prosecutor said, citing reports of hundreds of women being attacked in parts of Libya. Moreno-Ocampo also reported evidence that Libyan leaders purchased containers of “Viagra-type” drugs and distributed them to troops to help them carry out the government’s rape policy.

“They were buying containers to enhance the possibility to rape women,” Moreno-Ocampo said.

“We had doubts at the beginning but now we are more convinced that he decided to punish using rapes.”

This March, the story of Eman al-Obeidi, a Libyan woman who claimed she was gang-raped by Gaddafi’s forces, captured hearts and headlines the world over. Libyan officials doubted her claims, now it looks like there is more evidence to back her story up.

Libyan military defectors have also reported that they were ordered to rape civilians. In this CNN video, one such defector claims to have seen cell phone video of his former comrades, acting on orders, raping teenage schoolgirls
(link inside)

[Iroscato]

I.C.C. Chief Prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo: Gaddafi Personally Ordered Mass Rape, Bought Containers of “Viagra-Type” Drugs for Troops

Luis Moreno-Ocampo, the chief prosecutor at the International Criminal Court, says Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi personally ordered mass rapes and bought containers full of sex drugs for his troops to use to accomplish the horrific task.

Gaddafi, who is desperately trying to quash an uprising against his rule that began in February, is accused of using rape as a weapon of war to terrorize the population into submission.

According to the Telegrapgh, Moreno-Ocampo may ask for a new charge of mass rape to be made against the Libyan leader following the discovery of this new evidence.

A decision from judges regarding charges of crimes against humanity is also expected within days.

“Now we are getting some information that Gaddafi himself decided to rape,” the prosecutor said, citing reports of hundreds of women being attacked in parts of Libya. Moreno-Ocampo also reported evidence that Libyan leaders purchased containers of “Viagra-type” drugs and distributed them to troops to help them carry out the government’s rape policy.

“They were buying containers to enhance the possibility to rape women,” Moreno-Ocampo said.

“We had doubts at the beginning but now we are more convinced that he decided to punish using rapes.”

This March, the story of Eman al-Obeidi, a Libyan woman who claimed she was gang-raped by Gaddafi’s forces, captured hearts and headlines the world over. Libyan officials doubted her claims, now it looks like there is more evidence to back her story up.

Libyan military defectors have also reported that they were ordered to rape civilians. In this CNN video, one such defector claims to have seen cell phone video of his former comrades, acting on orders, raping teenage schoolgirls
(link inside)

Fucking piece of shit, I hope he hangs from the rafters if we ever catch him. He's actually turned it into an organised weapon against his enemies, holy shit....

[CaptainChewbacca]

Has 'mass rape' ever been used like this in warfare, on such an organized level?

[Iroscato]

Has 'mass rape' ever been used like this in warfare, on such an organized level?

I've never heard of it being done like this before. Ranom, single incidents are common in warfare when sadistic soldiers are involved, but I personally haven't seen it being used as a weapon by the so-called government.

[PeZook]

It might've been an accepted practice, at least, at some time in the past. I seem to recall mentions of a mercenary "motivational letter" from the...XVIth century? Where the guy bragged about raping women, as if that was a quality a soldier should possess.

[K. A. Pital]

Wasn't the Viagra claim coming from Al-Jazeera? I'd be suspicious of anything they claim. The fact that Susan Rice or Moreno repeat this claim doesn't automatically lend it any credence - unless, of course, Moreno is speaking about some other evidence than the Al-J claim of "Viagra in pockets". And I hope I shouldn't explain why "We found X in the pocket of this man" is automatically a rather doubtful claim, commonly used for drug set-ups. So pardon me if I'm a bit skeptical. Evidence comes first.

[Serafina]

Has 'mass rape' ever been used like this in warfare, on such an organized level?

We can argue over the level of organization, but "Rape of Nanjing" isn't just a metaphore.

Furthermore, rape was a normal part of warfare until very recently. City got captured, women got raped. The view on that differed from "side-effect" to "encouraged because it's good for morale".

Sadly, this isn't really that much out of the ordinary.

[Julhelm]

Organized rape has also been used in most African wars, of which Congo is a good example.

[Todeswind]

Has 'mass rape' ever been used like this in warfare, on such an organized level?

I've never heard of it being done like this before. Ranom, single incidents are common in warfare when sadistic soldiers are involved, but I personally haven't seen it being used as a weapon by the so-called government.

Uh.... dude. Rape is notable in it's absence in war, not in it's presence. I'm feeling too lazy to get all my sources at the moment so I'm just going to quote Wikipedia but it's not hard to find.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_rape

But if you need a more specific examples of government endorsed rape WWII is always a good place to start.

Comfort women is a euphemism for women forced to serve as prostitutes for the Japanese military during World War II.[1][2]
Around 200,000 are estimated to have been involved, with estimates as low as 20,000 from some Japanese scholars[3] and estimates of up to 410,000 from some Chinese scholars,[4] but the exact numbers are still being researched and debated. A majority of the women were from Korea, China, Japan and Philippines,[5] although women from Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan, Indonesia and other Japanese-occupied territories were used for military "comfort stations". Stations were located in Japan, China, the Philippines, Indonesia, then Malaya, Thailand, then Burma, then New Guinea, Hong Kong, Macau, and what was then French Indochina.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women

The Nanking Massacre or Nanjing Massacre, also known as the Rape of Nanking, was a mass murder and war rape that occurred during the six-week period following the Japanese capture of the city of Nanjing (Nanking), the former capital of the Republic of China, on December 13, 1937 during the Second Sino-Japanese War. During this period hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians and disarmed soldiers were murdered and 20,000–80,000 women were raped[1] by soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army.[2][3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

In fact rape was so prevalent and accepted as a tactic by the Japanese war offices that they distributed reusable condoms to the soldiers with the phrase “Dotsugeki Ichiban” (“Number One Attack”) printed on them as well as pictures of soldiers charging with other slogans suggesting that they use and abuse Chinese and Korean women.

http://www.womandpeace.org.tw/www_en/co ... _2pic3.png


And let us not forget Bosnia.

During the Bosnian War many women from all Bosnian ethnic groups were raped, and the overwhelming majority of them were raped by ethnic Serbs. Estimates of the numbers raped range from 20,000 to 50,000.[1][2] This has been referred to as "mass rape",[3][4][5][6][7] particularly with regard to the coordinated use of rape as a weapon of war.[4][5][6][7][8] The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) declared that "systematic rape", and "sexual enslavement" in time of war was a crime against humanity, second only to the war crime of genocide. The Kunarac case was the first time in judicial history anyone had been found guilty of these crimes.[4]
According to Margot Wallström, U.N. Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict, only 12 cases out of an estimated 50,000 to 60,000 have been prosecuted.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_Bosnian_War

[Sea Skimmer]

Qaddafi’s government has now told the UN Human Rights Council that Libya has been subject to acts of cannibalism by the foreign invaders and Al Qeda elements it's been blaming for everything. So I guess they have a brilliant plant to make the Viagra claims look reasonable?

Anyway said Viagra claims come from unsourced claims originally, but the BBC and Al Jazeera have interviewed prisoners in different parts of the country in the last month who made the claims; and in some instances clearly had no idea what Viagra was even called, they just talked about pills, and one one account I recall more clearly I think I could track the video down later basically said they’d been tricked into fighting and then forced to rape at gun point. Of course such statements could be forced, but the rebels have been treating prisoners fairly well and the interviews at least have the appearance of being free. I’d assume it happened a little; but I’d be surprised if Qaddafis government actually issued wide ranging orders to issue Viagra.

[Sea Skimmer]

Well to bump up a long confused story; the rebels in Libya have gone on the offensive in the last two days on near every possible front, Brega, Misrata, multiple points in the western mountains to link up towns, and now Al-Zawiyah has risen in rebellion again and resisted any quick attempt to crush it. Fighting in Zawiyah cuts the main roads from Tripoli to Tunisia and may quickly put the oil refinery near the city out of action. Those two things are the only sources of refined fuel for the Qaddafi regime. Without them Tripoli will literally grind to a halt in short order. The rebels are taking major losses on all fronts.

And also just a couple minutes ago it seems the UAE recognized the TNC as the legitimate government.

[Edward Yee]

The rebels are taking major losses on all fronts.

You sure you didn't mean the Gaddafi regime here?

[Zinegata]

Going on the offensive tends to result in higher casualties for the attacker.

[Sea Skimmer]

You sure you didn't mean the Gaddafi regime here?

Yes I am certain. We have no real idea what Qaddafi's losses are except when the rebels overrun pro Qaddafi positions quickly enough that they can’t take away their own dead and wounded and this is pretty rare overall. Qaddafi’s troops seems to suffer far more from loss of war material and poor moral then actual casualties, especially since NATO warns Qaddafi's troops before most air attacks on fixed installations which has been the considerable majority of air strikes. The rebels though, we get regular reports and video from a number of front line hospitals and they’ve taken hundreds of casualties in the past couple days. Around Misrata they are sweeping the blood out the door of make shift field hospitals as more wounded come in.

Heavy rebel losses in all kinds of combat is only to be expected, they have no real armored vehicles, little or no body armor, few heavy weapons and only weak sporadic air support to counter an enemy well supplied with tanks and artillery. Some rebels have shown they know how to dig in, but they don't always build wise kinds of fortifications I have noticed. A willingness to fight and die for a cause they believe in for themselves and the future of Libya is the number one rebel weapon, has been the whole time. Everything is gained in blood. This is a war spread across 500 miles of harsh terrain after all, and the long any war lasts usually the casualty rates keep increasing as both sides put ever larger units into combat. Certainly the rebels have more people fighting then they did before.

The only place any firm idea of pro Qaddafi casualties exists is concerning the fighting within Misrata city itself, the rebels found many dead bodies and took a decent number of POWs who provided accounts, and indeed often cited a failure to evacuate wounded as part of the reason they ultimately surrendered. Still while heavy, these losses were in the range of 1500-2000 losses; against an estimated 30,000 troops in Qaddafis (mostly) loyal regime protection units and unknown numbers of wartime conscripts and mobilized reservists. Several hospitals in Tripoli have been reported as taken over only to treat pro Qaddafi battlefield wounded, but I have not searched out any information on how big of facilities they are, many Libyan hospitals are small because the population is small, nor does anyone seem to have any idea how busy they are.

[CaptainChewbacca]

So basically the rebels are advancing on all fronts on a tide of broken bodies, not necessarily through superior firepower.

[Block]

So basically the rebels are advancing on all fronts on a tide of broken bodies, not necessarily through superior firepower.

That's pretty typical of armed rebellion when the Loyalist forces are well armed and don't end up siding with the rebels.

[Thanas]

What the heck is this?

[Falkenhayn]

A Toyota pickup with a Soviet-built rocket pod mounted in the bed?

Pictures of these vehicles (and the ad hoc machine shops that produce them) are fairly regular in American coverage of the Rebellion.

[Sea Skimmer]

What the heck is this?

UB-16-57 57mm rocket pod for Soviet model helicopters welded onto a pickup truck, one of several improvised rocket mounts being used by the rebels since no one will give the credible numbers of new weapons nor will NATO allow the rebel helicopters to fly. The exact same rocket pods were used in a similar fashion by Croatian and Bosnian forces in the early 1990s for the same reason. Most of the improvised rebel rocket launchers are made out of four or six 122mm tubes taken from BM-21 launchers; they don't use the BM-21's themselves because the ones they have have all rusted and decayed the vehicles can't be driven nor can repair parts be imported.

Also you Germans just recognized the rebels for whatever reasons; remains to be seen if that will be backed up by some real aid or action.

An updated map has popped up; this one is for June 9th, not the current situation. The site admin said others will soon follow as information is collected.
http://www.libyafeb17.com/wp-content/up ... june-9.jpg