Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

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Alyeska
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Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by Alyeska »

MSNBC
A police shooting of a man in Miami Beach on Memorial Day was terrifying, but when it was over, officers turned their attention to a man filming the violent scene with his cellphone. They demanded the device, smashed it and probably thought that was that; no video anymore. It was not: Narces Benoit had had the presence of mind to pull the phone's memory card with the video on it from his cellphone and put the card in his mouth.

That action saved the video you see above, showing the police shooting dead a suspect at the end of a chase, and some of what happened to Benoit. It was after the shooting ended that police turned their sights on Benoit, who had been darting behind trees and stop signs, filming with his HTC Evo phone.

At about 1:38 into the video, we see and hear a police officer turn to Benoit and shout: "Gimme the phone now!"

Benoit's response: "I ain't got no weapon!"

And he did not: But more and more cellphones are becoming weapons of sorts to police, who are finding themselves filmed in public places and not liking it. Just about everyone has a cellphone, and just about every cellphone now shoots video of some kind.

In New Jersey, the ACLU is pursuing the case of a high school student who used her phone to take video of police on a city bus who arrested a man, then took her into custody because she refused to turn her cell phone off. Police later released the teen, but not before erasing the video on her phone.

Benoit and his girlfriend got into their car to leave, but not before a police officer turned his gun on the couple (see it at about 2 minutes into the video), demanding they get out of the car. The couple complied.

"They put guns to our heads and threw us on the ground,” his girlfriend, Ericka Davis, told the Miami Herald. Benoit told the newspaper an officer yanked his phone from him and said:

“You want to be [expletive] Paparazzi?” and stomped on his phone before placing him in handcuffs and shoving the crunched phone in Benoit’s back pocket. He said the couple joined other witnesses already in cuffs and being watched by officers, who were on the lookout for two passengers who, police believe at the time, had bailed out of Herisse’s car. It is still not known whether any passengers were in the car.

After getting his broken cell phone back, "he discreetly removed the ... card and placed it in his mouth," said the newspaper, which also reported the couple contends that officers "smashed several other cell phones in the ensuing chaos."

The police chief says if the couple files a complaint, which they're considering doing, the police department will investigate. Otherwise, the department has had little to say about what happened.

The couple has hired a lawyer, but is still weighing what to do. "We just want the right thing to be done," Davis told the newspaper. "That was just too much."
I started to see stories about this show up yesterday on CNN. This looks pretty bad. Pointing a gun at a bystander to force compliance of handing over a phone? Attempted destruction of evidence.

There is a new trend starting in several states that I find very discomforting. States are starting to make a crime to record police doing their duty. A police officer unlawfully detains you and has you arrested for a night? Slap on the wrist. Video tape him arresting you? Spend 3 years in prison. Unlawful imprisonment has a lower punish than recording a freaking cop or judge.
Under the Eavesdropping Act, which applies in 12 states, all parties must consent to a recording being made.

Maryland, Illinois and Massachusetts are the only states where it is illegal to record conversations with the police.

In Illinois police are currently prosecuting nine people for alleged breaches of the law.

The maximum penalty is only three years behind bars for the first time the law is broken and five years if it is done again,

But anyone recording a judge, attorney general, state attorney or police officer can be sent to jail for up to 15 years.
Something needs to be done to reverse this trend and quickly.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by Big Phil »

The court system needs to start smacking police departments down hard for doing this. It's a complete violation of both civil rights and due process of law, and an abuse of power.

That being said, I completely understand why police officers are doing this. Virtually every cell phone or video tape taken of police paints them in a bad light - often legitimately but sometimes it's out of context - and it puts cops on the defensive... a place they don't like to be.

Given that the technology exists, it should really be mandatory that police wear cameras or microphones at all times, and can't turn off the recorders in their vehicles. This will protect good cops from accusations of abuse, and will provide evidence to prosecute bad cops. It's too bad police tend to circle around in a defensive wagon to defend the bad cops, however.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by Mr Bean »

I heard about this two days ago when the story was raw and stat on it until more details emerged but for once it seems like the initial story that hit the social media matched the initial reporting.
This is such a bizarre situation you have to wonder if something else is going down since you see literally every officer opening up on the car and emptying their clips into the parked car. Something about that does not seem right. Could have been nerves? Sure I'd love to hear in their own words what's going on.

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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by Alyeska »

While the police can explain much, they cannot explain all. Firing 90 shots and hitting that many bystanders is unacceptable. One of the requirements of shooting is knowing your target and what lays beyond it. Firing uncontrollably and hitting people like that is not acceptable.

Confiscating cameras and video recording equipment at gunpoint. That is NEVER acceptable.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

This reeks of big government interventionism, where the socialists try to oppress couples' and teens' small-to-medium private enterprises. If cameras are weapons, then the citizens have the constitutional right to bear them, as written by our Founding Fathers and these communazi cops' attempt at regulating them is unconstitutional. They are violating the individual person's state (of being an individual) rights. The government is already clamping on peoples' right to bear dogs, and now their right to bear phones. When will they stop? Why are they forcing us to bring cellphones to town hall meetings? Do they want us to digicam crosshairs into their pictures for a camera amendment solution?
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by TheHammer »

This is the type of thing I was talking about a few weeks back with Kamikaze Sith and other law enforcement persons on this board. Just curious what their input would be ont his now if any of them happen to be check in to the thread...
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

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Objectionable post (and pointless reply) sent to the barrel. We will have an orderly discussion, and we will refrain from posting in an excessively derogatory manner towards our law enforcement professionals.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by weemadando »

Speaking from professional experience, it's apparently the norm in Australia for the police to take all footage of incidents like this as evidence. So it's not unreasonable for the police to request that it be handed over. In most cases where it's CCTV or similar, they'll often just take the whole DVR unit and give you the "evidence receipt" so that you can claim a new one from insurers.

Then again, this particular case sounds far less like that and more like arse covering and destruction of evidence, in which case there's ample room for felony charges for all officers involved.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by Zaune »

Equally worrisome to my mind is the fact that at most six officers (estimated by counting muzzle-flashes) fired ninety rounds between them to take down one suspect from a few yards away. Either they're spectacularly poor shots or they're operating under very suspect rules of engagement.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by Agent Fisher »

That's not too suprising, actually. That's about fifteen rounds each, so say, one magazine. And when that first round flies, and it's time to start shooting, you can dump that fifteen rounds really fucking fast. So, nah, not that worrisome.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Can someone tell me what the original intent was of laws prohibiting the recording of a judge or police officer and imposing such stiff penalties?
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by Simon_Jester »

The sheer volume of fire, though, is going to create a lot of problems- pity anyone who happens to be in any vehicles or not-that-tough buildings downrange of that. So it is a problem- if police officers are instinctively dumping an entire pistol magazine into someone their 'threat receptor' goes off, the risk to innocent bystanders goes up a lot.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

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weemadando wrote:Speaking from professional experience, it's apparently the norm in Australia for the police to take all footage of incidents like this as evidence. So it's not unreasonable for the police to request that it be handed over. In most cases where it's CCTV or similar, they'll often just take the whole DVR unit and give you the "evidence receipt" so that you can claim a new one from insurers.

Then again, this particular case sounds far less like that and more like arse covering and destruction of evidence, in which case there's ample room for felony charges for all officers involved.
I seem to recall it being SOP to due as much here, though I also seem to recall it being a pain in the ass to get back items seized as evidence, up to and including having to actually pay for them to release the items to you, from anecdotes in one of the previous police threads. That in turn leading to a dislike, if not outright distrust, of police wanting to seize something for evidence purposes (along with CYA in the case of actual wrongdoing) wouldn't surprise me if it were true. Anyone with more experience know anything? It seems kind of crazy, but at this point I'm willing to consider all but the most crazy stories of bureaucratic BS in the world.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

TheHammer wrote:This is the type of thing I was talking about a few weeks back with Kamikaze Sith and other law enforcement persons on this board. Just curious what their input would be ont his now if any of them happen to be check in to the thread...
The officer that pointed his gun at the man recording the incident should be fired. There's no reason for any officer to get worked up over someone video taping police actions from a safe distance away. It's happened to me and it doesn't bother me. The only thing I won't put up with is those who like to get close and start asking questions and putting the camera in your face.

If that officer was told to go seize the camera he should have handled it in the manner that the female officer did.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by Alyeska »

Destructionator XIII wrote:Yeah, we certainly wouldn't want any of that useless evidence making it's way to trial!
Thats not the argument I made. The cop turned and pointed a gun at the people and then demanded the video. Threat of death for a video. Its not even close to appropriate use of force.
Destroying it isn't cool, but collecting it, even by threat of force if need be, is an important step in making sure the truth is uncovered.
Police are under strict rules about use of force. You can't shoot someone because its hard to stop them from breaking the law. They have to prove an imminent threat. Pointing a gun is threat of death. There is no jurisdiction where its legal for a cop to shoot someone simply for refusing to hand over a video camera. So why the fuck is it OK to point a gun when he can't even use it?
I can't read a legislator's mind, nor have I read the law's actual text, but from the sound of the summaries, it's a privacy thing. You can't record anyone without getting their OK* first, and cops are no exception.

This would protect people from other crimes like blackmail as well as protect their general right to privacy. (The stiffer penalties are probably reserved as add-on charges for blackmail cases or other more severe crimes that the recording was used to perpetuate.)

* For security cameras in stores, I suspect merely posting a sign at the door saying there's cameras watching you is enough for that consent - by continuing inside, you're implicitly consenting to the recording, since the cameras are no secret and you're free to take your business elsewhere. Again though, I haven't actually read the law nor any cases in those states.
A number of states have made the intent of the law clear. The law only bans the recording of public officials while its still legal to record private individuals.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by Stark »

Civil libertarians don't really have to worry about this behaviour; the window of time where all these videos aren't being immediately uploaded to somewhere else is closing. In a few years the cops can destroy as many phones as they want, and the videos will still be out there.

For a foreigner, this is a really terrifying look at Florida, by the way.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by Zaune »

Simon_Jester wrote:The sheer volume of fire, though, is going to create a lot of problems- pity anyone who happens to be in any vehicles or not-that-tough buildings downrange of that. So it is a problem- if police officers are instinctively dumping an entire pistol magazine into someone their 'threat receptor' goes off, the risk to innocent bystanders goes up a lot.
My sentiments exactly. To say nothing of the questionable morality, at best, of emptying an entire magazine into a suspect when they're almost certainly no threat after being hit by the first couple of rounds.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Alyeska wrote: A number of states have made the intent of the law clear. The law only bans the recording of public officials while its still legal to record private individuals.
Yeah, that was my meaning; Why are on-duty police and judicial employees afforded special protections? Is it because they're afraid of criminals building a database of police faces and recognizing cops?
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by Alyeska »

http://gizmodo.com/5553765/are-cameras-the-new-guns
On March 5, 24-year-old Anthony John Graber III's motorcycle was pulled over for speeding. He is currently facing criminal charges for a video he recorded on his helmet-mounted camera during the traffic stop.

The case is disturbing because:

1) Graber was not arrested immediately. Ten days after the encounter, he posted some of he material to YouTube, and it embarrassed Trooper J. D. Uhler. The trooper, who was in plainclothes and an unmarked car, jumped out waving a gun and screaming. Only later did Uhler identify himself as a police officer. When the YouTube video was discovered the police got a warrant against Graber, searched his parents' house (where he presumably lives), seized equipment, and charged him with a violation of wiretapping law.

2) Baltimore criminal defense attorney Steven D. Silverman said he had never heard of the Maryland wiretap law being used in this manner. In other words, Maryland has joined the expanding trend of criminalizing the act of recording police abuse. Silverman surmises, "It's more [about] ‘contempt of cop' than the violation of the wiretapping law."

3) Police spokesman Gregory M. Shipley is defending the pursuit of charges against Graber, denying that it is "some capricious retribution" and citing as justification the particularly egregious nature of Graber's traffic offenses. Oddly, however, the offenses were not so egregious as to cause his arrest before the video appeared.
In this particular case a cop waves a gun around at a person before identifying who he was. Does nothing about the helmet mounted camera and then charges are filed once the video hits Youtube.

Why aren't they charging people for video taping police who help get cats out of the tree? Gee, could it be because the police consent to video of them doing good but of course won't consent when they fuck up and break the law? The very proof they are breaking the law is a 4-15 year fucking sentence?

After a quick check on Google I cannot find evidence of laws deliberately criminalizing just recording of police. That said, I argue that the laws are being used almost exclusively in this regard. The police have no reason to give consent to recordings of their law breaking activities. But if the cops aren't doing anything wrong, they have no reason not to. This means the cops have leverage to punish people for recording criminal activity for the sole purpose of reprisal or intimidation. And some states go so far as to make it a higher crime to record police of judges as compared to private citizens. The entire point is to scare citizens into not recording police in the public.

Police should be except from any consent laws regarding recording. The very concept gives them just enough rope to hang someone else.

If its a crime to video tape a police officer breaking the law, its a crime to video tape a police officer kissing a baby and both should be punished with 5 year prison sentences.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Alyeska wrote: Police should be except from any consent laws regarding recording. The very concept gives them just enough rope to hang someone else.
This is already happening. The Michigan Supreme Court ruled that police do not have an expectation of privacy and can be video taped which will set a precedence when these issues hit the Supreme Court of the United States.

This ruling doesn't mean that police have to conduct investigations in an uncontrolled environment. Meaning if you're video taping the police and acting like the paparazzi then expect to be charged with obstruction.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I have no problem with a police officer saying 'please stop filming and get back XX number of feet', thats reasonable.

I also don't have a problem with the police saying 'Your video may be evidence of a crime, we need to confiscate it'. This, too, is reasonable under certain circumstances.

Pointing a gun at me and destroying my camera because it might make you look bad, however, SHOULD be a crime.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by Alyeska »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I have no problem with a police officer saying 'please stop filming and get back XX number of feet', thats reasonable.

I also don't have a problem with the police saying 'Your video may be evidence of a crime, we need to confiscate it'. This, too, is reasonable under certain circumstances.

Pointing a gun at me and destroying my camera because it might make you look bad, however, SHOULD be a crime.
The pointing of the gun alone should instantly get the cop fired. The destruction of the camera should be felony obstruction and get prison time.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by blahface »

weemadando wrote:Speaking from professional experience, it's apparently the norm in Australia for the police to take all footage of incidents like this as evidence. So it's not unreasonable for the police to request that it be handed over. In most cases where it's CCTV or similar, they'll often just take the whole DVR unit and give you the "evidence receipt" so that you can claim a new one from insurers.
Australians are OK with this? What if the person has a bunch of embarrassing photos on their phone? I have a hard time believing that the police wouldn't pass it around to each other and get a good chuckle out of it.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by Stark »

It isn't just that; all kinds of corporate, personal or restricted information might be on someone's phone. Eventually they'll realise that there are better ways to 'gather evidence' and that it doesn't protect them at all and I guess they'll stop.
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Re: Police shooting hits 4 bystanders, more details

Post by weemadando »

For cell phones I'm not sure how it would work, but the issue from my discussions with our CCTV provider following a serious incident at one of my sites was that the defense should it go to court will usually want to see unedited first hand footage, so a copy it backup won't cover it, hence the taking of the whole CCTV DVR. I have to imagine that similar procedures would exist for phones.

Of course this all scales based on seriousness. For more minor crimes a copy may suffice, but for murders or police involved shootings the whole confiscation thing for chain of evidence would be the norm.
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