Modern weapons required against Space Marine armor?

[Serafina]

There are actually special helmets that accommodate the special senses of Space Wolves.

[Meest]

I thought autocannons were all explosive minus the rocket propelled part. Usually the devastating ones are airship/spaceship grade autocannons where they tear shit up person or vehicle. Any mention of any energy field on that witchhunter or else it's just another stupid author feels like he's ok this time. At the same time assault cannons are treated as absolutely deadly and I thought they had higher rate but desribed as medium calibre, so guess it fits with a 20-30mm modern cannon, where maybe the autocannon is more like a world war 2 era 40mm.

[Connor MacLeod]

I thought autocannons were all explosive minus the rocket propelled part.

Not if you're Graham McNeill.

[Purple]

No, bolters are rocket shots with HE or what ever in them. Autocanons are like regular modern day firearms.

[Connor MacLeod]

bolters get portrayed as anything from super-sonic grenade launchers to high caliber rocket propelled fragmenting bullets, depending on era, author, and the time of day.

[Swindle1984]

Feudal Worlders once managed to kill a Space Marine. A Grey Knight, no less. It was off-screen, but it did happen, implying that primitive weapons are a threat to Marines in sufficient numbers. (Granted, said feudal worlders were mutants and heretics, but the sorcery was explicitly limited to the Allking's own forces, which weren't part of the force which killed the Knight.

Already I want to kill the person who came up with that.

Unless the GK didn't have his armor on. Then it makes sense.

But if he did...*inhales*

RRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

Maybe he got hit with a boulder launched by a trebuchet and broke his neck.

[madd0ct0r]

I was thinking about that, and decided the only things on the planet that could penetrate the armour would be the grey knights own stuff.

maybe he was swamped and someone found the grenades?

[Norade]

They could have mobbed him and shoved him down a well or something too.

[Ford Prefect]

Wasn't a Terminator Space Marine stepped on by a Titan once? And survived?

Sure, but this isn't quite as amazing as you'd imagine because a) the armour was pretty wrecked afterwards, even if it still worked and b) it's not like the ground is infinitely durable.

[HMS Sophia]

a) the armour was pretty wrecked afterwards, even if it still worked

I don't remember that. I just remember the... was it a space wolf? getting back up and striding on into battle...

Also, wasn't it terminator armour?

[Simon_Jester]

My impression is that Space Wolves fight with helmets off in situations where they value the use of their (unusually keen even by Space Marine standards) senses more than they value the protection and electronics of the helmets.

My impression of that was something like this. What you said makes sense, a lot of sense. And therefore it became tactical doctrine for these certain conditions. But as time passed, and I mean time, 10000 years is a lot of time the doctrine became more and more dogmatised like everything else in the empire loosing the original reason and becoming a parody of it self.

As in, "fight with helmets off in situations where they value the your senses is greater than they value the protection and electronics of the helmets" became "We are the children of the Rus! Our forfathers fought with their helmets off couze they were cool! Our senses are so strong and we are so uber we don't need helmets."

And yet we do see the Wolves fighting with their helmets on, I believe...

[Black Admiral]

The quote from Grey Knights;

Alaric checked the runes projected by his autosenses back onto his retina. Dvorn's rune was flickering, he must be injured. "Any men lost?" Alaric voxed.

"Caanos is dead," said Santoro simply. "Mykros is carrying him."
- The Grey Knights Omnibus, pg. 110

The only details provided there or in the other (very brief) mentions just down the page are that Caanos's body is in one piece (meaning no gross physical trauma), and that the progenoid gland in his throat is intact, meaning no major injuries to there. Other than that, naff all; could've been some kind of poison, a wound to the femoral or brachial arteries, bunch of other possibilities.

The Titan stepping on Terminator quote (AFAIK, what class of Titan it was is never specified);

He landed badly and cursed as he fell in the rubble, looking back to see Kaarlson slowly lumbering through the ruins. He screamed his name as the mass of the Titan's foot smashed through the building and crashed down upon the Wolf Guard Terminator.
[...]
He looked over towards the flattened building and watched with astonishment as the rubble began to shift and heave. Massive chunks of plascrete and steel were pushed aside as Kaarlson pulled himself free of the debris. His Terminator armour had been gashed open in a dozen different places and his blood was splashed crimson against grey, but he was alive.
- Chapter Approved 2001, pg. 55

So, Ford's right, the Wolf Guard dude's armour was pretty badly damaged.


Simon: Yes, the Wolves fight helmeted just as often as bareheaded. And they're not the only ones who feel that their own senses are better than the armour's autosenses; the White Scars do as well, and a Blood Angels Sergeant in Soul Hunter removes his helmet explicitly because he thinks that autosenses are "no substitute for true perception".

[Ford Prefect]

I don't remember that. I just remember the... was it a space wolf? getting back up and striding on into battle...

Also, wasn't it terminator armour?

Orsai has, as usual, provided the quote. I don't to make it sound like it's not impressive, but it's not as impressive as is regularly touted.

[Connor MacLeod]

It's impressive in the sense that the man survived being pressed into the ground by something that masses some hundreds or thousands of tons. The ground likely had a ton of give in it, but even so, it says something about the durability of Termiantor armor (though considering how "ultra rare/irreplacalbe" its supposed to be, it ought to be tough.) And despite the armor taking a ton of damage, the Space Marine inside was relatively intact and in general alive. Considering the circumstnaces, I call that pretty impressive.

5th edition tends to wank it out far more (basically its better than a Leman Russ and all that.)

[Norade]

Real people have survived getting run over by cement rollers so it's not that impressive a feat as an isolated incident.

[Sea Skimmer]

It's impressive in the sense that the man survived being pressed into the ground by something that masses some hundreds or thousands of tons. The ground likely had a ton of give in it, but even so, it says something about the durability of Termiantor armor (though considering how "ultra rare/irreplacalbe" its supposed to be, it ought to be tough.) And despite the armor taking a ton of damage, the Space Marine inside was relatively intact and in general alive. Considering the circumstnaces, I call that pretty impressive.

5th edition tends to wank it out far more (basically its better than a Leman Russ and all that.)

The US ran over the M16 rifle, never known for durability let alone with the basic version, with an M60 tank in trials and it came out intact and able to fire except for a bent sight post; crushing is not a very good indication of weapons resistance. Ground pressure can't be anywhere near as high as what a weapons impact, single digit or tens of psi vs. tens of thousands of psi, or else the things wouldn't be able to move on even solid rock without bogging down. Some giant walking mech that turns rock into lava from the pressure of each step sounds a lot like 40K... but I never heard of that claimed. It sure wouldn't make for good life on that pesky dirt stuff.

[Ahriman238]

The US ran over the M16 rifle, never known for durability let alone with the basic version, with an M60 tank in trials and it came out intact and able to fire except for a bent sight post; crushing is not a very good indication of weapons resistance. Ground pressure can't be anywhere near as high as what a weapons impact, single digit or tens of psi vs. tens of thousands of psi, or else the things wouldn't be able to move on even solid rock without bogging down

Try this, in the new anthology Age of Darkness a Terminator takes two krak missiles, the first in the hsoulder spins him around for the second to slam dead-on into his chest. There was a third missile, but now that he was facing the source he was able to bat it away. At this point things get confusing as two squads of devastators open fire from an elevated position, trying to kill the Terminator by simply covering the whole area in missile and heavy-bolter fire. When the dust clears the Terminator is still standing, albeit a bit unsteadily, and his armor is sufficiently pitted and scarred that an SM captain on the ground is able to headshot him where the armor is thin enough for the bolt to penetrate.

Though it's said that it took a really good marksman, even for an Astartes to make the shot.

What I'm saying here is that Terminators take some killing.

[Norade]

I was just thinking of what we could use to hurt them and I came up with modernized Davy Crockett style nuke launchers. Something a bit more accurate than the originals were.

[wautd]

Just finished the "Call of the Lion" short story in Tales of Heresy, where the Dark Angels were up against what looked like a late 20th century army. Seems like assault rifles are next to useless (although it looked like the DA-commander gets his visor damaged by a lucky shot), but massed missile and artillery barrages were able to took a few Space Marines down. A direct hit from a tank also killed a Space Marine iirc.

[ChosenOne54]

Would, say, a couple Javelin missiles do the trick?

I apologize, I'm not too knowledgable on 40K.

[Black Admiral]

Would, say, a couple Javelin missiles do the trick?

Yes, a Javelin or similar anti-tank missile would most likely be sufficient to kill a Space Marine in standard power armour.; 40k missile launchers have done so repeatedly, see here;

Another was struck by a missile fired by an Alpha Legion heavy weapons trooper, the projectile blowing the White Scars into a thousand chunks of smoking armour and burned flesh.
- Hunt For Voldorius, pg. 276

Helicas sent a missile through the doorway, and it exploded in the chest cavity of a warrior in the rust red armour of the Skulltakers*. Bone and armour fragments scythed down the warrior behind him, and the shockwave of the detonation hurled the rest down the stairs.
- The Chapter's Due, pg. 385

A missile lanced out and struck Sergeant Nivaneus, a veteran of the Thracian campaign, disintegrating his upper body in a burst of crimson.
- The Ultramarines Omnibus: Nightbringer, pg. 243

The Chaos Marine** proceeded to punch butchering fire into the Vitrian front line. Then he exploded. Headless, armless, his legs and torso rocked for a moment and then fell.

Gaunt nodded his thanks to Trooper Melyr and his missile launcher.
- Gaunt's Ghosts: The Founding, pg. 76

* A Khornate warband formerly of the World Eaters Astartes Legion

** An Iron Warrior of an unknown warband

There are other examples, doubtless, but those should be sufficient to illustrate the general point.

[Balrog]

Slightly off-topic, but have krak missiles ever taken out Space Marines in Terminator armor? I recall seeing an example from awhile back, but can't remember the exact details. I think it was in one of the Space Wolf novels.

[Black Admiral]

The one example of a krak missile v. Terminator armour from the Space Wolf series is this;

The krak missile struck the Space Marine full in the chest, knocking him back a step, but the anti-tank round could not penetrate the adamantine breastplate of the ancient Terminator suit.
- Space Wolf: The Second Omnibus, pg. 519

[wautd]

One thing to remember about armor is that it's not simple like it is in an RPG (Eg not "hit points" or "damage resistance" or stuff like that.)

In the Space Wolves short story in Tales of Heresy (HH), there's mention of a squad armor damage ranging between 10 to 18%. But I guess this might as well point to a disabled helmet or ripped off shoulder pad or something. I just found it weird to add a percentage to it.
(unless Dark Eldar have some kind of funky weapon that lowers armor integrity).

Addendum, in Fallen Angels (HH), there's mention that while las bolts failed to penetrate Nemiel's space marine armor, its integrity fields got lowered, so it looks like armor overall effectivensess can be lowered with sustained fire.

[gamer]

Space marine armor should be penetrated by AP .50cal rounds or 40mm grenades (bolter rounds are essentially rocket-propelled 20mm grenades so a 40mm grenade should do something) maybe a sniper armed with a Barrett could do it (A Barrett using armor-piercing rounds could penetrate a few feet of concrete or go through an armored car and come out the other side, also .50cal rounds will tear a man in half and send one half flying into the air) If this fails 25mm autocannon rounds should be able to do it, and if this fails a few RPGs should definitely be able to do it. Terminators on the other hand will definitely require armor-piercing autocannon rounds or 120mm HEAT rounds should put a terminator down for good just leaving a bloody mess.