Imperial Walker versus 40K Anti-Armor Weapons

[Justice]

I've honestly looked this up in a lot of threads, and I haven't seen much of an answer. I'm wondering how things such as Meltabombs, plasma weapons and power weapons will do against an GE Imperial Walker.

I've looked in a lot of threads and seen that while a Multimelta has 33 Gigajoules (I believe that was the number), if I convert that over to kilotons that is a woefully small number. Meanwhile, an Imperial Walker can withstand up to 30 kilotons worth of firepower. Is there something I'm missing in the conversion there, or are Multimeltas just that ineffective?

[ChosenOne54]

It's a damn handheld weapon, did you expect it to be in the megaton range?

[Interlord1]

I don't really think that multimeltas can be converted into kilotons accurately. They arn't an explosive weapon. Correct me if i'm wrong though. They are more of a laser style weapon I think, Or a heat ray or something like that. They'd have to be measured in joules. Again, I could be massively wrong.

[Justice]

It's a damn handheld weapon, did you expect it to be in the megaton range?

Well, a Multimelta is generally a vehicle weapon. I didn't expect it to be in the megaton range, but I'm wondering if I'm missing something or is it really just a couple tons worth of explosive force. I figured that they might be able to attack the weak points (joints and such) on an Imperial Walker, but with this level it seems like they'd do very little if anything at all.

Interlord1: That's what I'm asking. Should I be using a direct conversion, or is there another way I should be doing this?

[Interlord1]

I think you should probably be doing it another way. I don't think it can be converted into kilotons because its not an explosive force. Its a beam of heat radiation or something, I think, That melts through the armour of things very quickly. And I could be wrong, but I think that the walker can stand 30 kilotons probably means it can survive a 30 kiloton explosion nearby. Which means if you took, say, all the energy from a 1 kiloton explosion, and foccused it into a single spot, It would probably destroy it. Please tell me if I made no sense there.

[Justice]

I think you should probably be doing it another way. I don't think it can be converted into kilotons because its not an explosive force. Its a beam of heat radiation or something, I think, That melts through the armour of things very quickly. And I could be wrong, but I think that the walker can stand 30 kilotons probably means it can survive a 30 kiloton explosion nearby. Which means if you took, say, all the energy from a 1 kiloton explosion, and foccused it into a single spot, It would probably destroy it. Please tell me if I made no sense there.

I get exactly what you are saying; they work on different levels, so they need to be measured different ways. But, just like you, I'm at a loss to figure out what the correct way is. I'm currently debating someone, however, who is giving me the "30 Kiloton" curtain and I just lack the scientific educations to figure it out the proper way.

[Interlord1]

If we wanted to do it scientifically we would need to know how much energy it would take to melt/vapourise each cubic meter of armour plating, Find out how thick the armour is, And how tightly the melta beam is foccused. I could be wrong, But I know none of that.

[Batman]

Technically, kiloton is a unit of energy these days (one KT being 4.18E12 joules) so directed energy weapon firepower can be expressed in those terms. Nevertheless the effects would indeed not be the same as those of a similar yield explosion.

And while I don't know where the 30KT figure is from, Star Wars weapons routinely have there firepower quantified in kilo/mega/gigatons so I doubt that referred to a 30 KT explosion, the effects of which vary quite considerably depending on the environment the explosion is happening in. For example, a 30KT explosion in the vacuum of space is going to have quite different (and a lot less spectacular) effects than one happening at ground level in an Earth equivalent atmosphere.

[Justice]

I'm guessing he's referring to some sort of blaster weapon (are the blasters on the snowspeeders that powerful?), but I have yet to fully question it. I've been trying to get my own argument in order, though, and I'm trying to find evidence that imperial weapons would stand a chance of disabling on with properly placed charges/shots.

[Batman]

Given that starfighter laser cannon are in the single figure KT range in Wars, I doubt it.

[Stark]

Is the OP treating kilotons like hitpoints?

I think the armour on AT-ATs is superconductive, so 40k's thermal weapons may struggle to be effective.

[Justice]

Is the OP treating kilotons like hitpoints?

I think the armour on AT-ATs is superconductive, so 40k's thermal weapons may struggle to be effective.

I don't know where he got it from, just that he has. I'll make sure to question him on it, though I didn't expect to get drawn into an extended debate.

Thanks for the information, too. I assume that would also hurt the effectiveness of plasma weapons as well. Would a Titanhammer detachment (basically a detachment of 2 or more Terminator squads armed with thunder hammers, storm shields, and a vortex grenade?) be a more effective option?

[Batman]

Without any numbers presented, how are we to know?

[Justice]

Yeah. Damn it all. I guess I'm going to have to look through my stuff and see what I can find.

Thanks for all the help, despite the limited information.

[Elessar]

Thanks for the information, too. I assume that would also hurt the effectiveness of plasma weapons as well. Would a Titanhammer detachment (basically a detachment of 2 or more Terminator squads armed with thunder hammers, storm shields, and a vortex grenade?) be a more effective option?

In the fluff, Space Marine effectiveness vs Titans is typically situational. In the Word Bearer novels, a company Terminators actually took on a Imperator-class. For a smaller scale battle, Five Night Lords took on a Reaver in Soul Hunter, if memory serves correctly. So an AT-AT might go down, but it would be hugely due to engineered traps and circumstances upon the battlefield.

That is the point of Space Marines... yeah they're great at one-on-one, but they excel at exploiting any weaknesses. So the answer to your squad question will always be 'it depends'... just like how Snow Speeders managed to take on a detachment of AT-ATs.

I suppose if they couldn't break through the armor of the AT-AT leg though, that would be a game changer. I've assumed that power weapons would break though given the variety of materials they penetrate in WH40K fluff, but I have no evidence to support it for SW materials.

[Hawkwings]

Vortex grenade is an auto-win I think. Just chuck it at the walker and wait a few seconds. Depending on the "blast radius" a significant portion of the walker just disappears.

[Shroom Man 777]

Just use some rope, or in the case of smaller Star Wars mecha, logs.

Really, the Galactic Empire are fucking idiots for using mecha scum. And they aren't even awesome mecha that can backflip and do space jiu-jitsu or stab other mechas with swords, just ugly lumbering grey turd-mechas. At least you can't accuse the Imperial Guard of being short of heavy armor battle tanks.

Just get someone to sneak underneath an AT-AT, carve a hatch open with a power sword, and chuck a melta grenade in. Win. Or Land Speeders with cables.

This doesn't say much though, seeing as Star Wars armored fighting vehicles are generally totally shit. No trigger guards? Try no wheels and/or treads. Can't penetrate packing crates? How about can't walk through rope? Napoleonic horse cavalry could easily outrun them!

[Darksider]

because the Empire never uses Tanks right? or any other type of heavy assault vehicle.

I know you like to imitate milwanking retards in order to mock them, but your typical style makes it difficult to see where pointless posturing ends and genuine disdain begins. Yes, the AT-AT is not the most sound armored vehicle design in existence. It is also far from the only weapon in the empire's inventory. Hoth was a hastily assembled assault due to Ozzel's fuckup letting the rebels know it was time to GTFO. A typical Imperial assault will have walkers advancing on the enemy like the troop carriers they're supposed to be, supported by anti-aircraft units, artillery, aircraft, and other armored units. see the Battle of Kalaan for an example of an imperial combined arms assault.

[Justice]

I started the thread with AT-ATs mostly because Space Marines really lack superheavy vehicles of their own outside of Thunderhawks and I figured that, of all the vehicles in the Imperial arsenal, the AT-AT would probably give their ground forces trouble due to it's absurd armor and size; I'm a bit more confident in the ability of a Predator to at least challenge Imperial Repulsor tanks compared to an AT-AT, especially with something like an Annhilator. Damn, those things are speedy, though!

I wouldn't mind expanding the discussion, however, but it's kind of a dick-measuring contest right now as I can't find any real statistics or instances to base my opinions on. While I own most of the codexes and RPG materials, I generally don't read the novels, so I find myself far less knowledgeable than I thought I was.

@Elessar: That's basically what I figured would happen, though finding out how a power field actually works and how it would work on SW materials is basically impossible. It's rather frustrating, actually.

@Hawkwings: While the vortex grenade would certainly work on one, it's rarity would make it something that couldn't be a consistent tactic without going into "The Federation Pulls Something Out of Their Ass" territory. Interestingly enough, though in the entry (In Apocalypse) talks about the Terminator Captain being teleported to the ship, gathering other Terminators, and then teleporting back out. You don't often here about them getting teleported back.

@Shroom Man 777: Good to know about the horsemen. The Rough Riders will be pleased!

[Norade]

You might also want to look at the less common XR-85 Tank Droids which are not only bigger, but lack the horrible weakness of the AT-AT.

[Shroom Man 777]

because the Empire never uses Tanks right? or any other type of heavy assault vehicle.

Oh, you mean a bunch of repulsoroids nobody knows anything about, except for those who've actually read obscure comic #XYZ that nobody also cares about? Well, the Jug is okay.

I know you like to imitate milwanking retards in order to mock them, but your typical style makes it difficult to see where pointless posturing ends and genuine disdain begins. Yes, the AT-AT is not the most sound armored vehicle design in existence. It is also far from the only weapon in the empire's inventory. Hoth was a hastily assembled assault due to Ozzel's fuckup letting the rebels know it was time to GTFO. A typical Imperial assault will have walkers advancing on the enemy like the troop carriers they're supposed to be, supported by anti-aircraft units, artillery, aircraft, and other armored units. see the Battle of Kalaan for an example of an imperial combined arms assault.

So... now that you've blown your cover and your enemy is going to be escaping earlier than you anticipated, instead of sending your fast attack ground effect vehicles or so on, you instead send... your slowest, shittiest mecha to trip on some ropes or get hit by logs or something?

If AT-ATs weren't the only armored vehicles the ISDs had in them, and they actually had decent ground vehicles for their troops, that actually makes the Imperials even stupider for deploying only AT-ATs when they could've used something marginally less shitty.

"OMG OMG THE ENEMY MIGHT ESCAPE! WE HAFTA MOVE FAST YO HOMIES! GOTTA BUST A CAP ON DER ASS! UHHH TIME TO PRICK A VEHICEL!!!!"

*sees AT-AT, repulsoroid fast vehicles, and wheeled juggernaut that can also roll out at decent speed*

"Duuurrhhh... eenie... meanie... minie... moe! THAT ONE!"

*picks the slowest shittiest vehicle in the garage, a four legged grey-colored turd made out of molasses*



It'd actually be LESS stupid if he was forced to use the shitty AT-ATs because they were the only vehicles they had.

God, what a bunch of idiots. No wonder they got punked by a bunch of teddy bears. With that kind of tactical acumen, or lack of thereof, I doubt they'd actually fare any better in a close range corridor firefight with a bunch of fuck ugly Romuloid oompaloompas, or Klingoffs with deformed foreheads.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I started the thread with AT-ATs mostly because Space Marines really lack superheavy vehicles of their own outside of Thunderhawks and I figured that, of all the vehicles in the Imperial arsenal, the AT-AT would probably give their ground forces trouble due to it's absurd armor and size; I'm a bit more confident in the ability of a Predator to at least challenge Imperial Repulsor tanks compared to an AT-AT, especially with something like an Annhilator. Damn, those things are speedy, though!

Well, comparing AT-ATs against Space Marine firepower is rather silly, because Space Marines do not generally fight as entrenched infantry firing heavy weapons from fixed positions, a la Empire Strikes Back. If you want to seriously throw Space Marines up against AT-ATs, it's better to consider how jump-pack Marines with meltabombs and power swords will fare, or Terminators' chainfists and the like. Space Marines aren't going to fight what amounts to a small Titan like they would fight against light armor.

Since AT-ATs are more comparable to Titans, a 'fair' fight would involve Imperial Guard, superheavy tanks, and scout Titans. So, a better question to ask is, "How does a Shadowsword superheavy tank's firepower compare to an AT-AT?"

[Norade]

I started the thread with AT-ATs mostly because Space Marines really lack superheavy vehicles of their own outside of Thunderhawks and I figured that, of all the vehicles in the Imperial arsenal, the AT-AT would probably give their ground forces trouble due to it's absurd armor and size; I'm a bit more confident in the ability of a Predator to at least challenge Imperial Repulsor tanks compared to an AT-AT, especially with something like an Annhilator. Damn, those things are speedy, though!

Well, comparing AT-ATs against Space Marine firepower is rather silly, because Space Marines do not generally fight as entrenched infantry firing heavy weapons from fixed positions, a la Empire Strikes Back. If you want to seriously throw Space Marines up against AT-ATs, it's better to consider how jump-pack Marines with meltabombs and power swords will fare, or Terminators' chainfists and the like. Space Marines aren't going to fight what amounts to a small Titan like they would fight against light armor.

Since AT-ATs are more comparable to Titans, a 'fair' fight would involve Imperial Guard, superheavy tanks, and scout Titans. So, a better question to ask is, "How does a Shadowsword superheavy tank's firepower compare to an AT-AT?"

Why do we give a shit about fair? Every ISD has the equivalent of a small titan legion on it so the IoM won't have a choice but to fight them in numbers. This isn't to mention the strategic mobility that Star Wars enjoys meaning they could simply send mapping droids in and then push for Terra once they find it. This technique means they have less time spent in a warp infested hell hole and for all we know killing the GEoM would make the galaxy a safer place for continued Imperial operations.

[Sarevok]

Also there are more AT-AT vehicles in Imperial service than there are Space Marines who discounting scouts number only about a million in total. The AT-AT complement aboard the Imperial navies starships alone outnumber the total number of space marines. When the army is taken into account the disparity just becomes cruel.

It's not a good thing when the enemy has more heavy tanks alone than your basic footsoldiers.

[Norade]

Also there are more AT-AT vehicles in Imperial service than there are Space Marines who discounting scouts number only about a million in total. The AT-AT complement aboard the Imperial navies starships alone outnumber the total number of space marines. When the army is taken into account the disparity just becomes cruel.

It's not a good thing when the enemy has more heavy tanks alone than your basic footsoldiers.

Space Marines aren't basic foot soldiers. The trillions of guardsmen are the foot soldiers.