The Greek Indignants

[K. A. Pital]

Well, let's look how they enjoy national bankruptcy then.

And how much money European banks stand to lose...

French and Swiss banks gambled on private and state debts in Greece, like a pack of damn vultures. Gambling is a bad behaviour. If they lose cash, it is only reckoning coming for their reckless and damaging actions.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, let's look how they enjoy national bankruptcy then.

And how much money European banks stand to lose...

French and Swiss banks gambled on private and state debts in Greece, like a pack of damn vultures. Gambling is a bad behaviour. If they lose cash, it is only reckoning coming for their reckless and damaging actions.

Weren't German banks asked to buy Greek debt as well?

[K. A. Pital]

Weren't German banks asked to buy Greek debt as well?

Even if they were, I'm not sure they did in any significant numbers. In fact, statistics show that German banks reduced financing of Greek debt in 2007-2010, whereas French and Swiss banks went on a real spree. So German banks aren't that exposed to Greek debt, I assume.

[Thanas]

No, German banks massively increased their shares over the last year due to the Government asking them to, in order to help the Greeks out.

They are now reducing their stock, but they still hold a disproportionately large share.

[Akhlut]

This is CNN

Athens, Greece (CNN) -- Greek anti-government protests turned violent Wednesday, as protesters threw petrol bombs at the Ministry of Finance and police fired tear gas at protesters, police said.

Tens of thousands of protesters had vowed to form a human shield around the Greek Parliament to prevent lawmakers from debating new austerity measures Wednesday afternoon.

"This is a joke. It is all a joke," protester Christos Miliadakis, 35, said of the government plans.

"When will we be able to get out of this vicious circle? My wife lost her job. I had a 12% pay cut as a result of the first bailout. The new measures want to cut another 20% of jobs in the public sector," he said. "So if no one has money and we are just more in debt, who is going to drive the economy? We will live like slaves paying all our lives."

Architecture student Maria Iliadi, 23, said that for people like her, "the future in this country has been erased. There will be no big public projects and no one will be building for a long time. Some times finishing my degree seems totally pointless."

Between 25,000 and 27,000 demonstrators were on the streets of the capital by the middle of the day, police said. Two policemen and four civilians were mildly injured and 12 people were arrested, they said.

Prime Minister George Papandreou is due to address the nation on television later Wednesday, prompting speculation that he will announce a Cabinet reshuffle.

Labor unions are holding a 24-hour strike to protest the measures and will be marching to Parliament to join forces with the protesters.

The strike has brought public services to a grinding halt and kept most transport networks at a standstill, although flights have not been affected.

Rallies have also been scheduled to take place in other Greek cities.

On June 9, the Cabinet approved a tough five-year plan for 2011-2015 and introduced a bill in Parliament to put the measures into effect.

The government has said that the passage of these additional measures is essential to Greece's securing the fifth tranche of a 110 billion euro ($158 billion) bailout package that Greece signed with the European Union and the International Monetary Fund to prevent the country from defaulting on its debts.

Greek Finance Minister George Papaconstantinou has said the country hopes to secure a second bailout deal this month.

The search for a second bailout comes after it became evident that Greece is extremely unlikely to raise capital from private markets in 2012 due to the prohibitively high interest rates it would face.

Papaconstantinou has also indicated that European Union members may support calls to get the private sector involved.

Despite the harsh austerity measures that the Greek government has imposed, it is failing to close its budget deficit as quickly as hoped. The country is in recession amid its fiscal restructuring program.

The finance minister has defended the five-year austerity plan, saying it is needed to keep Greece solvent. The new measures will include a number of additional taxes and job cuts in the public sector by a further 20%.

Protesters have been gathering outside Parliament for more than three weeks as part of an ongoing peaceful demonstration against austerity measures, with some camping in the square facing Parliament.

They call themselves "The Indignants," a grass-roots movement which takes its name from the Spanish campaign of "Los Indignados" who have been holding similar mobilizations against austerity across Spain.

In a statement the group has said it would keep going until the politicians and technocrats it blames for what is happening in Greece "go away."

The credit rating agency Standard & Poor's on Monday cut Greece's rating to just two notches above default, among the lowest in the world. The agency has said a default on some debt appears "increasingly likely."

Unemployment in Greece has skyrocketed to above 16 percent in May, a 40% rise since last year.

The European Commission has said Greece's economy was expected to shrink by 3.5% this year.

Papandreou has pledged to continue with reforms no matter what the political cost. He has said that the alternative, a default, "would be a catastrophe."

The five-year austerity plan is expected to face a vote in Parliament in before the end of the month.

Since I still have family in Greece that I keep in contact with, I have to wonder what would happen if the government is toppled by this movement. I'm not really expecting the Indignants to overthrow the government, I'm just curious if it goes down that road.

I'm also worried since my family is in Athens and I hope that the petrol bombs were an isolated incident.

[Narkis]

Hilarity ensued earlier today. In the morning Prime Minister Papandreou phoned Opposition Chief Samaras, and offered to form a unity government that would tackle the country's problems, even if it meant he'd resign himself. Samaras agreed. Rampant speculation ensued on who'd participate in that government, and who'd be the new PM, with the former President of Greece being the most probable. And then Papandreou made an announcement on TV about an hour ago, where he took it all back, and said he'd just reshuffle his ministers instead, stating that the Opposition used his offer as a cheap trick to score points. Rumour has it that there was a mutiny among his party, with all the top members strongly urging him not to give up power, and/or his offer was not serious, and he expected Samaras to refuse it so that he could then accuse him that he was content to criticise, and didn't want to solve anything.

[Broomstick]

I'm not an economic expert, and I'm neither Greek nor any other member of the EU, but it looks to me like both sides are acting more in their self-interest than to solve the long term problems at hand. Well, big surprise, it involve humans which are, at base, selfish bald apes.

Could someone explain in simple terms what happens if Greece actually goes down the toilet? I'm not talking about what happens to the banks, but what happens to the ordinary folks. Clearly, it would be bad in Greece. How would it affect the middle class in the rest of Europe?

And how strongly would the repercussions echo around the globe? Allegedly the US stock market took a hit today that is, according to the pundits, a result of the turmoil/economics in Greece. There is talk of Greece being the "first domino" to fall. How much of that is talking head hype and how much has a basis in fact?

[Thanas]

I'm not an economic expert, and I'm neither Greek nor any other member of the EU, but it looks to me like both sides are acting more in their self-interest than to solve the long term problems at hand. Well, big surprise, it involve humans which are, at base, selfish bald apes.

Could someone explain in simple terms what happens if Greece actually goes down the toilet? I'm not talking about what happens to the banks, but what happens to the ordinary folks. Clearly, it would be bad in Greece. How would it affect the middle class in the rest of Europe?

That depends on whether the money currently used for greek bailouts is used for simply preventing the banks from falling.

And how strongly would the repercussions echo around the globe? Allegedly the US stock market took a hit today that is, according to the pundits, a result of the turmoil/economics in Greece. There is talk of Greece being the "first domino" to fall. How much of that is talking head hype and how much has a basis in fact?

To be honest, I can't answer this, really. Quite probably the USA economy will take a hit because it is currently very fickle, on the other hand US banks are dumping their Greek stock so it is not that clear how hard they will be hit.

[Broomstick]

My concern isn't so much with the Greek banks and what our friends in the UK call "knock on effects". The downside to the current global economy is exactly the upside - we are all interconnected now. If things are going well in one region it tends to have positive effects as a whole. Likewise, when a region goes down it also affects everyone else.

The talk over here is not about Greek banks, or stocks, or the government, but rather that if their economy as a whole goes down it will also drag down Europe, and if Europe is down it will also drag the US down with it - and it's not like anyone's economy is really booming right now. I'm not sure if that's an accurate assessment, or hype from parties who could profit from panic and hysteria.

I think there's quite a bit of fear these days about something triggering another Great Depression. Certainly, as bad as the current global economy is, it's still not was bad as 1929 onwards. Let's hope it doesn't get that bad.

Just to confirm - this is the first major economic crisis to hit the EU since the euro was implemented, correct?

This talk of various countries being able to/not able to devalue their currency strikes me as a bit odd, but then I'm sitting here in the US where the various states have had a common currency for a couple centuries and the notion of devaluing the money of one and not another just can't come up. In the US we have to weather one (or several) state(s) having an economic crisis without that being an option, but then, the EU is a different entity and the various nations there are not nearly as strongly linked as the states over here. I suppose there are good and bad points to both systems. I get the sense that some of the more strident feelings in the EU are due in part to the realization that the member nations are linked now, not just in good times but in bad as well, as it's not at all easy to simply cut and run if one member is having a problem. Ya'll are married now, and at best divorce would be messy - suddenly the best option might be sticking together and finding a way to work it out. I like to think Europe will figure it out.

[Thanas]

Just to confirm - this is the first major economic crisis to hit the EU since the euro was implemented, correct?

Wasn't the dotcom bust during that frame as well? Other than that, you are probably correct.

[Broomstick]

While the dot.com bust was serious it was much more confined in scope. These days we have banks AND housing AND petroleum AND pensions AND.... well, we seem to have more things going wrong all at the same time.

[K. A. Pital]

Today Papa said he could resign from his PM position. However, I'm skeptical (1) that he really would, (2) that he or his successor can or even want to change anything.

[Narkis]

He changed his mind later, after major reactions by his own party. He's just going to change some cabinet members and continue with the same agenda.