Warhammer 50000

[SpaceMarine93]

Warhammer 40000 is without doubt one of the most popular tabletop games and cross - genre/media gothic science fiction fantasy on the planet, not just because of the excessiveness of everything, but for its rich, vast and incredibly grimdark backstory that spans tens of thousands of years and tell us the universe of WH40K from the most unspeakable acts of violence, horror and carnage to the greatest acts of heroism and awesomeness.

It has a universe where a unimaginably oppressive, stagnant and militant human galactic empire with a martyrdom culture fights a war of survival against threats from without, within and beyond all trying to destroy it in an unspeakably horrible way, where the government is so vast and slow entire worlds are lost by rounding errors of tax returns and loss of billions of people are insignificant to its existence.

Power-armored demigods armed with city destroy war machines, backed by poorly armed soldiers in the billions and starships capable of leveling whole worlds, fought on tens of thousands of battlefields against aliens and horrors from beyond which seeks humanity's destruction either for physical (Tyranids) or metaphysical (Necrons) consumption, torture (Dark Eldar), survival (Eldar), assimilation (Tau), corruption (Chaos) or simply for fun (Orks). Doom comes to all, Human, Xeno or otherwise, and there's no peace among the stars, only an eternity of carnage, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

But, Games Workshop had, for sometime, simply refused to move on with the storyline one way or another, forever stopping the story from developing further then the neverending year of 40999. And since we can never hope for GW to advance the story, many people had decided that is up to them to advance the story.

I for one is interested to see what would happened to the Warhammer universe ten thousand more years into the future. Any concrete ideas on how should it be worked out? What should happen to Humanity and all the other races? Would the future saw some light and reprieve from the grim, hopeless existence or doomed to an new era of darkness and horror?

[HMS Sophia]

10,000 years in the future? Humanity barely exists any more.
Threat one: the main hive fleet turns up. Decimates the galaxies worlds. The end
Threat two: The Necron gods rise. Everyone is screwed.

Chaos isn't as big a deal, but yeah. Warhammer 50,000 is either the last pockets of humanity, or necrons v nids.

[Darth Fanboy]

It is my understanding that there are a lot of "ifs" in a situation like this.

-if the Emperor dies or is resurrected and what happens if that occurs
-if somehow a fifth chaos god is born (I don't think that Mallal (sp?) Is canon)
-if the Orks unite
-if the Necrons go on a serious offensive or if the void dragon awakens
-if the Tyranids invade at just the right moment
-if the Tau continue to develop at their alarmingly fast ratw
-if the Squats ever come back (comedy option)

Or any combination of the above. I am admittedly comparatively new to 40k compared to many on the board but my impression is that there is still plenty of grimdark before any faction makes any real progress. Except for the Orks who I think like the status quo very much.

[HMS Sophia]

Sorry, fanboy reminded me of the best case scenario:
The illuminati sacrifice the sensei, and kill the Emperor... no really, I'm serious. Then he gets reincarnated as the starchild, and all of a sudden.... it's possible that everything gets real good. Mass outbreak of psychic talent, with no risk of chaos incursion (IIRC), and the pushing back of chaos, especially places like the eye of terror. There are various stories about what happens if the big man dies, but thats one of my favourites.

[NecronLord]

-if somehow a fifth chaos god is born (I don't think that Mallal (sp?) Is canon)

Malal is canon, or at least, recently reappeared in canon, as the demon 'Malice' an unaligned entity. While he was originally depicted as a god, the slaves of darkness book also mentioned that minor gods sometimes become powerful demons rather than risk the emotions that fuel them running out.

So yeah, sorta canon.

Never a great chaos god though.

[Simon_Jester]

I've seen this done; here is an interesting case.

[starfury]

I followed that story and it's sequel age of dusk

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Perhaps I am in the minority, but I have always favored a (moderately) positive future: The Emperor returns by some means, and there is no cataclysmic obliteration of humanity by [insert nascent existential threat]. Cataclysmic battles, on the other hand, definitely. Apocalyptic invasions of Tyranids and Chaos take huge gouges out of the Imperium. Orks snap up the weakened and stranded sectors. The Tau are annihilated (yay!). Mankind is forced back to the Segmentum Solar, most everything beyond it having been lost. At that point, the other factions war amongst themselves as much as with the remains of the Imperium: Orks and 'Nids go at it, the Eldar try to interfere with the advances of Chaos, and so on. The galaxy turns into a free-for-all and the universe's tagline could never be more true: In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.

Then, at some point (perhaps M46 or M47 or so), the Emperor awakens. The Imperium is no longer the vast galaxy-spanning and cripplingly-inefficient entity it once was; in sacrificing quantity, the remains of humanity adapt (as they always do!) to favor quality instead. With so much tighter borders and relative security, this new Imperium has slowly, painstakingly advanced in technology. Though far from any kind of golden age, this new, more enlightened humanity looks to its old enemies and former worlds with vengeance in mind and a reborn Emperor at the helm!

--

So, I suppose the idea is that you now have most of the traditional 40k factions in play (and perhaps some new ones), now on more-or-less equal footing with one another. Mankind is less central to the setting (i.e., it is less about Humans vs. Everything Else and more of a battle-royale), but they're ready to be major players again and plan to make it that way. Space Marines and all the other trappings are still around in some form, but humanity has less resources now and have adapted their strategy accordingly. Some of the more dogmatic and ritualized behavior of the 41st millenium has been replaced by somewhat more pragmatic thinking, although some stagnation is certainly still present. The surviving Space Marine Chapters proudly trace their history back to the old days, and some even remember their Primarchs, but rigidity and orthodoxy have slowly given way to camouflage patterns and ruthless efficiency. The Mechanicus has continued to jealously guard their technology, but over the millenia slowly lost influence and clout thanks to that attitude, and has eventually been forced to compromise some of their insularity. The guidance of a restored Emperor has in general pushed the remains of the Imperium back toward a more practical mindset, but change is always slow in the grim darkness of the far future...

[Wing Commander MAD]

Sorry, fanboy reminded me of the best case scenario:
The illuminati sacrifice the sensei, and kill the Emperor... no really, I'm serious. Then he gets reincarnated as the starchild, and all of a sudden.... it's possible that everything gets real good. Mass outbreak of psychic talent, with no risk of chaos incursion (IIRC), and the pushing back of chaos, especially places like the eye of terror. There are various stories about what happens if the big man dies, but thats one of my favourites.

Wasn't the whole sensei bit revealed to be a Tzeentchian plot? Granted 40K seems to be fairly flexible (particularly with regards to depictions of tech), but I'm pretty sure a rather definitive statement of A was an X in a later source has to be taken at face value. Well, at least until A is infact said to be a Y in an even later source.

[RecklessPrudence]

Hmm... Simon, Starfury, that looks good... gonna hafta find some time away from Uni work to read those - have you guys seen He Is Risen on this very board? Enjoyable story about the attempt to awaken the Star Child from a Custodes' point of view, if I remember correctly.

[Ford Prefect]

Ynnead happens.

[Simon_Jester]

Perhaps I am in the minority, but I have always favored a (moderately) positive future...

Well, it's mostly a matter of temperament. Is the Imperium period, post-Heresy and up to the 42nd millenium, simply another Dark Age*, one that can feasibly end? Or is it a last gasp, prolonged over centuries and millenia by the sheer size of the race that is dying?

There's no authoritative answer to that, really can't be one in my opinion. Thematically, you can justify doing it either way- because on the one hand, "grim darkness of the far future," but on the other hand, 40k is (whether Games Workshop likes it or not) a human struggle, one that resonates because it invokes so much of the best and (more frequently) worst in human nature.

The setting is about the collapse of a great human empire as it implodes under its own corruption, blind intolerance, and acephalic lack of strategic direction... but the stories told within the setting are about men fighting to maintain some kind of order in the face of chaos.

*In the original sense of the word, not as in "dark age of technology" from the 40k mythos.

[HMS Sophia]

Wasn't the whole sensei bit revealed to be a Tzeentchian plot? Granted 40K seems to be fairly flexible (particularly with regards to depictions of tech), but I'm pretty sure a rather definitive statement of A was an X in a later source has to be taken at face value. Well, at least until A is infact said to be a Y in an even later source.

I don't remember that. Though the sensei and illuminati stuff has been dropped by all the recent stuff. I think it was 2nd ed when the sensei's last got mentioned, which is very sad.

[andrewgpaul]

Sorry, fanboy reminded me of the best case scenario:
The illuminati sacrifice the sensei, and kill the Emperor... no really, I'm serious. Then he gets reincarnated as the starchild, and all of a sudden.... it's possible that everything gets real good. Mass outbreak of psychic talent, with no risk of chaos incursion (IIRC), and the pushing back of chaos, especially places like the eye of terror. There are various stories about what happens if the big man dies, but thats one of my favourites.

Wasn't the whole sensei bit revealed to be a Tzeentchian plot? Granted 40K seems to be fairly flexible (particularly with regards to depictions of tech), but I'm pretty sure a rather definitive statement of A was an X in a later source has to be taken at face value. Well, at least until A is infact said to be a Y in an even later source.

Not quite. The last mention of Sensei (and the only one in about fifteen years or so) says a group of them were wiped out by an Inquisitor who suspected them of being a Tzeentchian cult.

If you can find any definitive statements in the 40K fluff, I'll be impressed.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

but on the other hand, 40k is (whether Games Workshop likes it or not) a human struggle, one that resonates because it invokes so much of the best and (more frequently) worst in human nature.

I agree, and that's why I've always rolled my eyes at the "derp, 40k is infinite grimdark!!" line of thinking. I've always seen 40k in general to have an underlying positive attitude to it, a "Die with your boots on" sort of refusal to surrender even under the most hopeless odds.

[someone_else]

Is the Imperium period, post-Heresy and up to the 42nd millenium, simply another Dark Age*, one that can feasibly end? Or is it a last gasp, prolonged over centuries and millenia by the sheer size of the race that is dying?

If human history can teach something... empires may fall, but populations are very likely to remain (maybe under the rule of another foreign guy) and eventually form another nation or become part of another nation.
The race won't "die" on its own since most human enemies contented themselves of conquering, genocides were relatively rare (mainly because you needed farmers to work the patch of land you just conquered, after you murdered the upper classes you were ready to take their place).

But here is different. There are at least 3 "unstoppable" enemies bent on killing them (and everyone else for that matter) for unchangeable reasons (hunger, hunger of souls, love of war), and they are the ones that have to be redirected for a little. Tyranids, Necrons and Orks.
Let's say that Necrons, Orks and Tyranids start bashing each other and their main forces are locked up in the titanic struggle, the Chaos does whatever shit it usually does (none ever cared about them anyway).
Otherwise you have Nids annoying the shit out of Chaos that calls down everyhting to blast them away and (rogue) Tau that hack Necrons and start using them to nuke the Orks just because they hate them (was it called commander Farsight? don't remember).

This way you can buy an arbitrary amount of time for the Human race to properly collapse and retool itself under a new Empire/Federation/Repubblic/Caliphate/whatever. Maybe after some kind of better ("safer" and "more reliable", just as much as "faster") FTL system has been developed.
It doesn't take anywhere near 1000 years in real life to do so (save for the FTL).
Then they can start happily nuking the shit out of everyone else for the next arbitrary amount of time.

Anyway, given that the setting was intended to be a "constant losing war" and none wants to ruin the "grimdark" feel, it will remain unrealistically static as it has been for an unreasonable amount of time.
They will keep making up human-controlled shit to have it overtaken by the enemy of the month after glorious last stands. Forever.
I'm ready to bet that there will be at least 2 new new races that came from the butt-end of the universe that are hell-bent to eat/colonize/conquer/sterilize the entire galaxy by the year 50'000.

[PainRack]

We have seen the future... and it is green.

[SpaceMarine93]

Do you know some of the stuff that I want to see most? Intelligent Enslavers, Farsight Tau controlled by the Deceiver and Pissed off Old Ones.

[Ugolino]

Here's the best take on 50k I've read. It predates the Ward fluff, so the Grey Knights are actually well-written.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/sho ... 806&page=1

[Sea Skimmer]

Have the humans domestic the Tyranids. All problems solved. Also issuing several thousand tactical nuclear weapons per infantry battalions would help even things up.

[Simon_Jester]

Here's the best take on 50k I've read. It predates the Ward fluff, so the Grey Knights are actually well-written.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/sho ... 806&page=1

I just linked to that.

[someone_else]

This is the best thing that could happen to W40k universe.

Tau that domesticate Tyranids, kill the Emprah!!! and ascend for the win.

[wautd]

This is the best thing that could happen to W40k universe.
.

Offtopic, but that British space marine is hilarious

[Connor MacLeod]

if you take the recently written fluff of 5th edition as any example, the Impeirum's history since the Heresy is a cyclical one. It has a period of buildup, growth and expansion.. generally a more upbeat time and good shit happens. Then they inevitably have a period of contraction for whatever reasons (they over-extend themselves, someone decides to rebel, the Tyranids come knocking, etc.) It's unlikely that anything would happen in 10,000 years, except maybe that the Golden Throne degrades a bit more. In current fluff it really seems to be a race between the Emperor's plans of a psychic humanity coming to fruition and the decay of the stuff keeping him alive (and generally the entire culture falling apart.) Unless the Thorians plans come to fruition, anyhow.

The Orks are in the same boat. They expand and contract pretty much as the circumstances demand, although in a lot less coherent fashion.

CSM want to crush the Imperium, but I suspect Chaos actually doesn't care. All Chaos itself cares about is that chaos, suffering, etc all keep going on. It's the process that matters to them more, rather than the end. Time is often on their side, as they see things, but if there's a chance to throw the whole galaxy into the warp, so much the better.

That leaves the 'Nids, Eldar, Necrons and Tau. In the Eldar's case there's the issue of whether they die out before their own plans come to fruition, or not. Necrons, we don't have enough information on realy, other than they'd probably keep trying to wake up tomb worlds and (possibly) the remaining c'Tan plot to seal off the warp and feast on humanity. Not enough information to run predictions.

The 'Nids are another wild card. We dont really know how much more they have to throw at the galaxy.

The Tau... I want to say " need more information" but for two things. The first is that, ultimatley, they are restricted into how large their empire can grow unless a.) they develop something like Navigators, and a better warp drive. b.) they develop some alternative to warp drive. c.) they gain some sort of long range communication to maintain control. That could happen, but nothing as yet suggests it. Of course them growing bigger as other problems (they become a bigger potential thorn in the Impeirum's side, and a more serious effort at crushing them is undertaken. The bigger they get is also the more threats they're forced to deal with. They're rather safe and isolated on the ass end of nowhere. The second thing is ultimatley, I suspect that the Tau will continue to benefit largely from authorial fiat, and factoring that into 10,000 years could allow for some frightening possibilities.

[Connor MacLeod]

But here is different. There are at least 3 "unstoppable" enemies bent on killing them (and everyone else for that matter) for unchangeable reasons (hunger, hunger of souls, love of war), and they are the ones that have to be redirected for a little. Tyranids, Necrons and Orks.
Let's say that Necrons, Orks and Tyranids start bashing each other and their main forces are locked up in the titanic struggle, the Chaos does whatever shit it usually does (none ever cared about them anyway).
Otherwise you have Nids annoying the shit out of Chaos that calls down everyhting to blast them away and (rogue) Tau that hack Necrons and start using them to nuke the Orks just because they hate them (was it called commander Farsight? don't remember).

Except the Orks really don't want to kill them. They dont mind killing people, but Ork goals are ultimately geared towards the conflict and beating the enemy. Beating them does not mean killing them (although ti can mean enslaving them.) Killing an enemy off simply means he's no longer around to fight.

It's also debatable whether the Necrons actually want to kill everyone, mainly because Necron goals are still largely nebulous and there doesn't seem to be any one, singular entity controlling them. The C'tan want lives to feed on, so living beings are more cattle, and you don't kill off your livestock needlessly. Other random Necron influences (individual Necron Lords, etc.) may or may not want to kill depending on the circumstnaces, motivation, personality, programming, and general mental state.

[quote="Sea Skimmer"Also issuing several thousand tactical nuclear weapons per infantry battalions would help even things up.[/quote]

Depending on how big a "tactical" weapon you're thinking, they might have those. Fission weapons are banned though because of the fallout and contamination.