1 in 6 female Australian students raped

[Knife]

Both of us do agree on the salient point. The difference is that I disagree that it shouldn't be called a social stigma just because the label is self assigned. There are rape victims who are more vulnerable and may need specialised assistence and if the members of this group do feel that its negative, then it is a label. Lack of understanding and the failure to provide specialised help by other members of society IS a social interaction afterall.

My only contention would be the same as when i entered this thread, if we as a society are unwittingly causing more harm with the current set up, one of recognizing and reinforcing the role of victimhood to the victim, are we causing more harm. If you are correct, and I'm on the fence on this issue, and a self assigned label is causing harm, more so when that self assigned label is brought into a social environment to the point where advocacy groups can call it a social stigma, then we need to look at all links. Obviously better long term care to deal with emotional trauma, but we should also look at those advocates and their role in the problem. Which is where I dove tailed into SVPD's points. If you want to argue that a self assigned label is somehow societies fault then society, including the advocacy groups, need to be addressed.

I think any group, whether it is the stranger at the corner, at the store, or the support group that constantly reinforces the notion of victimhood is doing long term harm to a victim. After initial treatment for the trauma, they should focus on appropriate coping for the victim, not reinforce that they are victims any more than the jackass at the store or corner should 'poor baby' the cripple. And before we blame society as a whole, or any future relationship encounters, we should look at the care they are getting, including support groups and education. But yeah, I don't think you or I are that far apart on the subject.

[PainRack]

My only contention would be the same as when i entered this thread, if we as a society are unwittingly causing more harm with the current set up, one of recognizing and reinforcing the role of victimhood to the victim, are we causing more harm. If you are correct, and I'm on the fence on this issue, and a self assigned label is causing harm, more so when that self assigned label is brought into a social environment to the point where advocacy groups can call it a social stigma, then we need to look at all links. Obviously better long term care to deal with emotional trauma, but we should also look at those advocates and their role in the problem. Which is where I dove tailed into SVPD's points. If you want to argue that a self assigned label is somehow societies fault then society, including the advocacy groups, need to be addressed.

I think any group, whether it is the stranger at the corner, at the store, or the support group that constantly reinforces the notion of victimhood is doing long term harm to a victim. After initial treatment for the trauma, they should focus on appropriate coping for the victim, not reinforce that they are victims any more than the jackass at the store or corner should 'poor baby' the cripple. And before we blame society as a whole, or any future relationship encounters, we should look at the care they are getting, including support groups and education. But yeah, I don't think you or I are that far apart on the subject.

Have you read the literature regarding cancer support groups? In particular, breast cancer survivor groups? I hesitate to say the experiences can be parallel but support groups in the past did, and probably are still undergoing similar problems, albeit, towards the issue of survivorship.

Support groups were suspected of prolonging the period in which a person retained the sick label of being a cancer patient, or even that of a cancer survivor, preventing the resolution of that phase of their lives. Similarly, support groups also had similar problems regarding privacy, unwanted/unprofessional advice as well as upbeat optimism. It would be interesting to see what the latest guidelines and work is being done here, and to see whether a similar problem exists in rape advocacy and if similar solutions could work.

[Knife]

I have not, but that is interesting.

[Big Phil]

Who doesn't take rape victims seriously? The police? Society in general? What statistical evidence can you point to that demonstrates that "rape victims are often not taken seriously as adult human beings" and are "reduced to being a rape victim?"

And back to your original post - most rape victims don't advertise the fact that they were raped - HOW IN THE FUCK ARE PEOPLE GOING TO KNOW THEY'RE A RAPE VICTIM AND THEREFORE TREAT THEM DIFFERENTLY?

I gave you your answer already Sanchez. Self labelling.

It certainly doesn't comprise of the whole, plausible response. Let's use child molestation as an example.
We have from interviews examples of where the child withdrew socially and felt that she's abnormal/unloved, to one where the child reacts out by becoming sexually prococious, to one where they attempted to assert their rights and etc to one where they simply brushed it off. Dawkins shrugged his molest by a priest off. Others protested when they grew up. Some lost their faith.

Wait, what? Are you saying that rape victims stigmatize themselves? How on earth is that a social stigma?

[SVPD]

Actually. I screwed up. I was thinking of deviance when i posted that bit.

Fair enough

If all the disucssion really is, is whether the word "stigma" can be used, and "stigma" is so broad it can be applied no matter what, then this is merely semantic fencing. The issue is negative attitudes towards rape victims that affect their likelyhood to report it, and their treatment by society in general; i.e. are they looked upon with suspicion as a general rule. This has meaningful negative effects for the victim. Simply showing that a certain term can be applied to any attitude towards the victim, and simply pointing out the vague possibility of undefined harm on the part of positive or sympathetic attitudes gets us nowhere; this is precisely the sort of nonsense I was voicing my suspicion of in regards to rape advocacy groups earlier in the thread.

Like it or not, that's the sort of stigma I have been addressing, because that is the sort of stigma that rape advocacy groups have been complaining about for the last several decades. People who can, you know, understand context should not need it re-explained precisely what I am talking about each and every time I use the word stigma.

Which brings us back to ground one.

Ground one being that other types of stigma that might exist are irrelevant to the issue of social progress on whether rape victims are blamed for what happened, or treated fairly. My point all along has been that enormous progress has been made in this area, and by continuing to harp on it, rape advocates are doing more harm than good. Some different sort of stigma needs to be addressed in different ways.

Again, the fact that you're dismissing Lus or Serafina concerns is causing the whole flare-up in this thread because like it or not, their viewpoint is that social stigmatisation doesn't exist SOLELY in the "she deserved it" category.

No, what's causing the flare-up is the fact that "rape stigma" has traditionally meant suspicion or mistrust of the victim's story and motives. Now that it's been pointed out how much progress has been made on such issues, other issues are coming to light, such as the unintended negative side effects of patronizing victims of trauma. That would be well and good, except that we have some people loudly screaming that there's still a "rape stigma". Well, no shit, if you're going to characterize merely noticing that someone has been raped as a stigma, then the problem becomes insoluble.

Of course, you then handily dismissed the fact that labels can be self labelled as opposed to that imposed by formal groups or otherwise.

No one is "handily dismissing" it. However, self-imposition of stigma is not the same thing as everyone else imposing it, and does not in any way dispute progress on general societal attitudes. More importantly, if people are constantly harping on "stigma", that's not going to help with self imposition; it's going to exacerbate it.

And you wonder why rape reports are low?

I hate to break it to you, but rape reports are low because a lot of those "unreported" rapes are bullshit, or at the very least, questionable, if for no other reason then that there is simply little or no evidence. There are other reasons as well, such as fear of the attacker, or unwillingness to invest the time it will take to pursue a complaint, or simply because the woman does not really understand that what happened was rape until too late to make a report.. or she may just think it's too late. Some of it has to do with self-loathing or whatever, but there are a lot of causes.

Complete failure to address my point. I am only really discussing stigma in that context, and yet responses have been directed at me that shift onto matters such as dating. This is known as "shifting the goalposts", a term I believe you've been here long enough to understand. More importantly, you did not address how it matters if there is a stigma if simply being a rape victim makes a stigma completely unavoidable, regardless of social reform. You are focusing on trying to find a way to apply a particular term, when my point has been that significant social progress has been made.

And guess what? When you clarified that term, were you actually debated on THAT bit? No, you're not.

You mean in the post I'm currently responding to? Gee, it would have been pretty hard to notice if I were being debated on a definition I posted until you responded to it, now wouldn't it?

I'll avoid flaming you until reading your reply. You have one chance to retract based on the line I quoted above from your post. I'm quite sure that you meant to be gender neutral, but you weren't and it's not my job to read your mind. Otherwise, I'm going to treat your successive posts as if they contain the blatant dishonesty you're showing here.

I was referring to the previous posts made by Lusanyanka and Serafina actually and how you dismissed their concerns, particularly, the part about relationships
Unless Lusanyanka now isn't female, in which I guess I has to edit that statement.

Still, that's a fair enough parsing. I desist.

Fair enough

Or.... you might have been actually blind enough that you failed to see that Serafina concern ISN"T with regards to how the law doesn't treat victims like they deserved it or set artificially high barriers to rape reporting and etc.

But rather, to the idea that you think that rape victims don't face any suffering because of the incident.

I claimed rape victims don't face any suffering where exactly?

This is a load of bullshit. If Serafina or Lusyanka was addressing me, then it should ahve been perfectly clear to them that I was discussing reportability issues. All this jazz about relationships and so forth came up in response to that.. because some people think that when the common meaning of a "rape stigma" (suspicion, distrust, and blame directed at them) is used in discussing how that stigma has been largely addressed and remedied, this somehow means that people think everything is hunky-dory for rape victims, and so they shift the goalposts onto other issues like dating. There's also real cause to question whether people are simply offended at the idea that attitudes have improved and that it's no longer acceptable to lecture all and sundry on their "blame the victim" attitude because people aren't "blaming the victim" when they point out that there are effective ways to protect yourself.

Like it or not, that's WHAT you're communicating when you say rape victims don't face any stigma that should hinder them from self reporting. And I'm highlighting to you once again that suffering may be self inflicted on TOP of that inflicted by society.

Except that they don't face any stigma in most cases. It should be perfectly obvious when I say "they no longer face a stigma" that I'm talking about those that have been harped on in the past, not whatever unverifiable, unfalsifiable self-imposed stigma people can claim exists. This, again, is called "context" and if you're really getting what you're saying you're getting out of what I'm saying then you're completely ignoring the context of the thread and what I've been talking about in order to find a reason to be offended.

I've been talking about a SOCIETAL stigma for quite a while now, and quite frankly, self-imposed ones do not qualify. Societal behaviors can be observed and dealt with; we can see when a lawyer dredges up sexual history, or when the police mishandle evidence, or when someone is kicked out of their house. This internal stigma is an entirely unquantifiable mess of speculation that's really just trauma - much like any other trauma victim faces. The problem is not specific to rape, and more importantly, does not pertain to the issue of whether societal attitudes have changed.

So, stop humping your high horse and actually see what Serafina is reading when you say this. You don't want to have to continously re-explain this. Fine.
Then actually UNDERSTAND that this is what they're hearing, which was the WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF MY POST.

Look whose talking about getting off a high horse. I really don't give a shit what they're hearing, since quite frankly, ignoring the context of what's being said in order to find new ways to yell and scream about how awfully bad rape victims have it is part of the fucking problem. This constant mantra of problems they're supposed to have is contributing to the problem. When people are constantly told how traumatized they're supposed to be after rape, and how shabbily everyone else will treat them, is it any wonder that they perceive practically everything as some callous assault on their sensibilities? They're behaving and perceiving exactly what they've been told to perceive and how they've been told to behave.

Actually, no, I haven't. I can't speak from this from a psych point of view, but healthness and wellness. Do the same thing we do with intellectually disabled, handicapped people, or those suffering from terminal illness. Allow them to accept, intergrate and then move ON.

Yes, this is agreeable. However, part of that moving on requires that the victim not then perceive any negative reaction to them personally, or even any inappropriate broaching of the subject as some sort of "rape stigma". The dating thing is a perfect example; the victim assumes potential dates are fleeing in fear of potential issues, when in fact they really don't know the reason the date is saying "forget it." Even if the date explicitly says it's because of the rape victimization, that is affects by the fact that the date is saying this in the context of the date's other behaviors, which may not be all that appealing.

And you fail to see how the analogy breaks apart? Are you proud to be a police officer? Is it something that you face flak with continously?

In my case, I'm not a police officer, but I am a law enforcement officer but that's merely a technicality and an aside. In any case, while most LEOs are proud of what they do, we do face almost constant flak. People do not like getting arrested.

Let's try this for size. Police officers face a stigma when their wives or family ask them to desist from their occupation due to the danger they face, the low pay and relative social prestige. Is your approach then going to be, hey, man up, this ISN"T a problem at all and what you should do is realize that your wife a bitch for not understanding your work? You shouldn't be depressed at this at all.

No, let's not. My original analogy was apt - you can classify almost any reaction to anything about a person as a "Stigma" and thus simply define the issue into irrelevancy. This is precisely what you're doing when you start going on about nebulous "negative connotations" and such.

Cause that's what you're doing now. Arguing that rape victims shouldn't view what happened to them negatively at all and that this isn't important, rather, it should be how society, especially that in terms of the formal insitutions treat them.

Really? That's what I'm arguing? By what stretch of the imagination is this anything but a blatant strawman attack?

And while what you post is correct, you UTTERLY fail to understand that what you're communicating is that Rape victims don't deserve special sympathy because they don't face social stigma.

You just got done saying that this sympathy can be a negative. So, should they get it or not? Make up your fucking mind.

I don't fail to understand what I'm communicating at all. Rape victims don't deserve "special" sympthy at all. They deserve sympthy appropriate to the nature and degree of the trauma they were subject to. You just admitted that what I posted was correct; your response essentially is a bitch that it doesn't sound nice, or something.

I know you're tired of re-explaining this, but until you realize that victims are suffering, you're NOT going to

I see we're onto the tired "you don't care about the victims!" tactic full-blast. Yes, victims are suffering. No one has contested this.

So.... you now shrug it off as hey, its not rape stigma, its stigma towards the unfortunate?
Do you fail to see what that tone is setting off right now?!?!?!

How is that "Shrugging it off"? Rape victims are so special now that they can't be associated with other traumatized people?

I don't give a fuck what my tone is setting off. That's part of why we are still discussing rape reporting issues as if it were still 1980 or 1985; rational discussion is met with howls of outrage at anything that is not precisely what victims' groups want to hear. Rationality has been utterly suppressed on this issue by exactly the kind of behavior you're engaging in.

Oh god.... here we go again.

AGAIN. RAPE STIGMA DOES NOT CONSIST ENTIRELY OF THE REPORTING PROCESS.

Yes, as a matter of fact it does. I posted the definition of a "Stigma". That "distinguishing mark of social disgrace: the stigma of having been in prison". Other internal problems a victim may have are not a "stigma"; they're the effects of trauma. Similarly, problems with dates do not indicate a "stigma" in the absence of other, concrete evidence.

Is it THAT FUCKING difficult for you to understand your reasonable point is being entirely suborned by the tone, in which you dismiss the fact that rape victims are suffering?

Is it that fucking difficult for you to get that my "tone" is a problem of you and others looking for a reason to get offended? Rational discussion should not be suppressed by the need to avoid offending sensibilities; that does no one any good.

Or are you operating under the assumption that people are rational creatures at work? That the best way to help a depressed person is hey, cheer up, you don't have anything really sad to worry about, your life is wonderful. Just cheer up.

What the fuck are you even talking about?

OR do you consider that the ENTIRITY of what a rape victim undergoes to be the formal investigative and prosecution of the rapist/defendant? That a person does not have guilt, does not have doubt, does not have fear, either rational or irrational at all? And that their perceptions of the world is affected by their internal viewpoint? Or that there DOES exist valid issues facing rape victims that affect them?

Because somehow the fact that I'm addressing the self-fulfilling prophecy myth of a brutal investigative process that treats the victim as the responsible party means I don't consider other issues. I'm not interested in addressing those issues, and I'm not obligated to address them. I recognize that they exist, but I am not obligated to pay lip service to them in every post just to make people feel better.

Here's news for you. There isn't just one reason. Look up complex cause fallacy.

This coming from you is hypocrisy of the highest order. Seriously.

No, it really isn't. I've been addressing the aspects of reporting, blaming the victim, and how those issues have been addressed since the beginning. Shifting the goalposts by you and others does not make me a hypocrite - nor do accusations of hypocrisy change the fact that you made an error in reasoning.

Its not goalshifting when both you, serafina and etc are talking at totally different cross ends. How was the goals shifted when none of you was talking about the same thing in the first place?

Seriously. You cottoned on to that Serafina, Lus aren't talking about stigmas in justice and that you clarified this issue over and over again, and you DON"T realise this?

I was already talking about what I was talking about, and they addressed me. That's goalshifting. This is not hard.

Here's a hint SPVD. Guess what? My stance is on KNIFE point of view. I simply didn't want this thread to bog down because both you and Serafina are talking past each other.

Here's a hint. Your stance is utterly stupid. It simply makes the problem of "rape stigma" so nebulous it can't even be addressed, and encourages the sort of counterproductive carrying on about the issues rape victims face, and getting offended at any discussion that has been going on for years instead of anything that serves any useful purpose.

I don't know whether you're right regarding the rape advocacy centres of the States, but it IS a valid viewpoint that if you can show support for, like how Thanas asked, fine, you convinced me. But if the thread is to bog down between what you consider to be a stigma and what Serafina considers to be one... meh.

You've wasted an awful lot of time bellyaching and carrying on to be saying "meh" now. Maybe next time, you should try reading the thread and understanding context before you start lecturing pompously.

[PainRack]

[Ground one being that other types of stigma that might exist are irrelevant to the issue of social progress on whether rape victims are blamed for what happened, or treated fairly. My point all along has been that enormous progress has been made in this area, and by continuing to harp on it, rape advocates are doing more harm than good. Some different sort of stigma needs to be addressed in different ways.

SPVD, guess what? I do understand what you're saying. However, when you're replying to Serafina, understand this is HER opening post to you.
Furthermore, there's the problem that women are constantly being told "there's a stigma attached to rape, you won't be believed, you'll go through hell blah blah blah" and so forth from the very people that are advocating for rape victims. This makes for a strong potential for self-fulfilling prophecy where women aren't reporting it because of what they're being told it will be like if they report it.

Maybe because that's still the experience many women have?

Sure, the police will generally believe you insomuch as they'll start an investigation. But plenty of other people will NOT believe you, and there's still plenty of accusations against rape victims going around. I'd like to direct your attention to the case of Julian Asange as an example, where the two victims were accused of anything between "they just want attention" to "they are american spies out to ruin him", including on this very board. The same is happening to plenty of other rape victims. This is especially problematic if the rapist and the victim are from the same community - she'll face such accusations from former friends or neighbors.
Also, due to the way how traumatic rape can be, just plenty of people saying "i don't think he did it" can be very injuring to the victim - because that carries the indirect accusation that she is a liar and that this never happened to her.

As for police investigations - while they are usually carried out in a professional, neutral manner, there is the very real danger that the evidence will NOT suffice for a conviction. If that is the case, the victim went trough a very dramatic repetition of her trauma and risks the above-mentioned social stigma for nothing.
This isn't really a matter that can be resolved. Especially in the case of attempted rape, there is often no physical evidence except possibly some bruises - certainly nothing that is clear evidence for rape. In th case of rape by anonymous assault, the rapist might just be impossible to find. If you are raped while drunk (or similar situations), it boils down to your word against his - while sex clearly occurred there is no evidence that it was rape.
That's a VERY hard situation to deal with, much more so if you're already suffering from a trauma - like rape victims do.


The social stigma these days is just as real as it was 30 years ago. It no longer consists of "you're a slut for being raped" or "you brought this upon yourself" - it consists of the difficulty of conviction in most cases and the fact that many people will simply doubt it a la "this guy is not a rapist".
All of this is a reason why rape is often not reported - many women hesitate because they're afraid of being called liars, that their very real trauma never happened. And even those who don't might not bother because catching the rapist is often impossible.

You're simply talking from the position that social stigma that prevents police reporting consists entirely of the reporting process and how they may be blamed or disbelieved.

Serafina is arguing that this DOESN"T comprise the entirity of the rape victim experience, and I must reiterate, unless you and her actually come together and realise that the two of you are discussing utterly different things, there will be no communication other than just blather going back and forth.

I hate to break it to you, but rape reports are low because a lot of those "unreported" rapes are bullshit, or at the very least, questionable, if for no other reason then that there is simply little or no evidence. There are other reasons as well, such as fear of the attacker, or unwillingness to invest the time it will take to pursue a complaint, or simply because the woman does not really understand that what happened was rape until too late to make a report.. or she may just think it's too late. Some of it has to do with self-loathing or whatever, but there are a lot of causes.

Or victimisation, something that Lus already pointed out to you was what happened to her.
Or the feeling of I deserved it, another aspect of victimisation and something the rapist may very well enforce.
Or denial, nothing was wrong, nothing happened.
Or sensation of powerlessness magnified by the sensation of violation of her body.

You're simply taking things too lightly here and assuming that the "main" reason is that women are afraid of police disbelieving her and having to grill them, going through a highly emotive, traumatic experience for nothing.
Here's a thought. Rape victims may be simply afraid of you know... sharing. It doesn't matter how gentle the police procedure is, whether they know that a set of investigative guidelines, procedures and etc is put in place to help guide them through this. They may still be just... afraid.

No one is "handily dismissing" it. However, self-imposition of stigma is not the same thing as everyone else imposing it, and does not in any way dispute progress on general societal attitudes. More importantly, if people are constantly harping on "stigma", that's not going to help with self imposition; it's going to exacerbate it.

Oh for fuck sake, here's the fucking thing. The reason why I posted that? Its to get both you and Serafina to understand that you're BOTH FUCKING TALKING PAST EACH OTHER.

Do you BLOODY HELL understand that?

Look whose talking about getting off a high horse. I really don't give a shit what they're hearing, since quite frankly, ignoring the context of what's being said in order to find new ways to yell and scream about how awfully bad rape victims have it is part of the fucking problem. This constant mantra of problems they're supposed to have is contributing to the problem. When people are constantly told how traumatized they're supposed to be after rape, and how shabbily everyone else will treat them, is it any wonder that they perceive practically everything as some callous assault on their sensibilities? They're behaving and perceiving exactly what they've been told to perceive and how they've been told to behave.

And you're asserting that this is the major reason, without understanding how victimisation or any other number of factors would play right into this perception.

This is a load of bullshit. If Serafina or Lusyanka was addressing me, then it should ahve been perfectly clear to them that I was discussing reportability issues. All this jazz about relationships and so forth came up in response to that.. because some people think that when the common meaning of a "rape stigma" (suspicion, distrust, and blame directed at them) is used in discussing how that stigma has been largely addressed and remedied, this somehow means that people think everything is hunky-dory for rape victims, and so they shift the goalposts onto other issues like dating. There's also real cause to question whether people are simply offended at the idea that attitudes have improved and that it's no longer acceptable to lecture all and sundry on their "blame the victim" attitude because people aren't "blaming the victim" when they point out that there are effective ways to protect yourself.

No. Serafina direct RESPONSE to you showed that she WASN"T talking about social stigma in the sense that the police disbelieves you. LOOK at what she wrote.
She wrote that other people may disbelieve you, even though the police will do a competent investigation.
She wrote that its a traumatic experience to recount rape.
She wrote that the social stigma no longer consists of the short skirt defence, but rather, the casting of doubt on the case. And guess what? Student surveys BACK her up.

http://current.com/news-and-politics/89 ... n-rape.htm

Unless you fucking ACKNOWLEDGE that, there ISN"T going to be any form of communication. AGAIN, social stigma comprises of MORE than just the police reporting process. This was made very clear to you that this was what Serafina was talking about when she decried the no social stigma aspect and you fucking the dead horse regarding the shield laws and etc is not going to progress this further.

And here's the funny thing. Serafina has been quiet regarding this, but I hope that these two pages WOULD had gotten the point to her too. That the two of you are talking totally different things.

You're claiming that rape advocacy groups are doing a bad job of actually preventing future attacks and hindering the criminal progress by claiming that the police are still male dominated and may not believe you and etc. Serafina already made this clear that this isn't what she's talking about when she talks about social stigma, but rather, about others casting doubt on the case, NOT the police. The evidence is suggestive that she's right, and your only argument is that rape surveys done by advocacy groups should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Without ANY formal form of evidence, you're simply NOT going to be believed.

If you're talking about the blame the victim fiasco earlier in this threrad, while I decry Surlethe attempt to shift the topic away, the fire and fury involved has been spent and should not be raised again. Unless any of the relevant posters do that same shit of inserting words in other people mouth again.