A future without disposable plastic bags

[U-95]

Here (Spain), more and more supermarket chains are making people to pay for bags that, by the way, usually are re-used as trash bags. Paper bags are very rare; I've never seem them.

Although they say is "for ecological reasons", one can wonder why in some of them if you go with a backpack/stuff bought in other store/etc, they force you to put it into a largue plastic bag that is closed with heat and that, of course, becomes useless when you re-open it.

[Broomstick]

Well, the latter is clearly to prevent shoplifting.

Around here the stores reserve the right to inspect any bags you carried in on the way back out - as long as they aren't dicks about it I'm OK with that.

[U-95]

Well, the latter is clearly to prevent shoplifting.

Around here the stores reserve the right to inspect any bags you carried in on the way back out - as long as they aren't dicks about it I'm OK with that.

Yes, I know. They could use a precint with adhesive tape (and sometimes they've used that) that cerainly is mmore ecological than a plastic bag and you can carry the backpack normally.

As a side note, I wonder why they do not include plastic bottles and the like. Unless the plastic (PVC?) used for that is more degradable than the one used for bags, it's also something that pollutes a lot. Many years ago, at least here, drinks (even Coca-Cola and Pepsi) were sold in crystal bottles. If you returned them to the place where you bought it, they gave you some money (very little, of course). Now, besides whiskey, wine (the most expensive ones), and other alcoholical beverages and you see crystal bottles only in bars and little more.

[madd0ct0r]

when I left there was at least one supermarket chain in the UK that charged for plastic bags - Lidl

It was standard practice there for staff to leave empty cardboard boxes out from when they stacked the shelves, and customers would just pack their goods in those.
Decent and High quality bags were also on sale (also insulated ones and wine boxes), but most people were happy just to stuff their goods into the free boxes or their reused shopping bags.

on the other end of the scale, Tesco (the biggest chain) had introduced automated checkouts. Their primary defense against shoplifting was checking the weight of the bag as you filled it. If you were using your own bags (or box or rucksack) you had to call an assistant, wait for them to come over and reset the machines scales for you. tedious. So you either waited there, queued with the grannies for the 2-3 normal checkouts or put your stuff in plastic bags and then empty it again into your rucksack.

just not helpful

[Darth Tanner]

If you were using your own bags (or box or rucksack) you had to call an assistant, wait for them to come over and reset the machines scales for you. tedious. So you either waited there, queued with the grannies for the 2-3 normal checkouts or put your stuff in plastic bags and then empty it again into your rucksack.

Thats not actually true anymore, Tesco at least lets you simply put your reusable bags/backpack on the scale area first so the machine can factor their weight into the equation. If your putting your shopping in a back pack anyway I just put it in the weighing area first then once I've paid put it in my backpack.

Tesco also gives you a club card point for every bag you reuse which is worth it seeing as you have to spend a £ to get a point otherwise.

[U-95]

when I left there was at least one supermarket chain in the UK that charged for plastic bags - Lidl

It was standard practice there for staff to leave empty cardboard boxes out from when they stacked the shelves, and customers would just pack their goods in those.
Decent and High quality bags were also on sale (also insulated ones and wine boxes), but most people were happy just to stuff their goods into the free boxes or their reused shopping bags.

on the other end of the scale, Tesco (the biggest chain) had introduced automated checkouts. Their primary defense against shoplifting was checking the weight of the bag as you filled it. If you were using your own bags (or box or rucksack) you had to call an assistant, wait for them to come over and reset the machines scales for you. tedious. So you either waited there, queued with the grannies for the 2-3 normal checkouts or put your stuff in plastic bags and then empty it again into your rucksack.

just not helpful

In Spain, as well as the other german chain I know (Aldi), they charge also for plastic bags. and (Lidl at least) have also larguer and insulated boxes. For a fee, of course. They do not give, however, carboard boxes. Nor any other supermarket I know, except when making a largue purchase and asking the supermarket to carry it to your house.

Is (was) a bit absurd Tesco's idea, is isn't?. At most, in some chains they force you to left the rucksack/stuff bought outside in lockers. You enter 1 euro and can get the key (when you return the key, the lock returns you the money). If you don't have money for them or all lockers are full, bad luck. Also, if someone uses a cloned key and steals whatever you had inside.

[Broomstick]

Here Aldi also charges you for their bags if you don't bring your own (currently you have a choice of plastic, paper, or reusable canvas). The do let you take their empty cardboard boxes for free, though.

[folti78]

Around here the regulations changed back in 2007-2008, regarding the big plastic bags. Before that, pretty much every store larger than your cornerstore gave you plastic bags for free(when I changed my ways to reusable bags, I got funny looks from clerks when I asked them not to give me bags). Nowadays only Auchan gives you plastic bags for free, but it's because their checkout system is based on the clerk dropping things into a set of bags. Everyone else moved to charging for the plastic bags and adding some reusable bags to their repertoire.

Smaller fully transparent plastic bags to pack baked goods, fruits and vegetables are still free and in some case, paper bags or simple sheets of paper are still used.

[U-95]

Around here the regulations changed back in 2007-2008, regarding the big plastic bags. Before that, pretty much every store larger than your cornerstore gave you plastic bags for free(when I changed my ways to reusable bags, I got funny looks from clerks when I asked them not to give me bags). Nowadays only Auchan gives you plastic bags for free, but it's because their checkout system is based on the clerk dropping things into a set of bags. Everyone else moved to charging for the plastic bags and adding some reusable bags to their repertoire.

Smaller fully transparent plastic bags to pack baked goods, fruits and vegetables are still free and in some case, paper bags or simple sheets of paper are still used.

Yes, I forgot to comment that besides small shops that give for free small bags -both transparent and white- (and of course the classic sheets of paper for bread, cakes, etc), Auchan ("Alcampo" here) is the unique largue supermarket store that gives you bags for free. Supposedly are more ecological, being transparent and not white.
The effect I'm seeing is that more and more people go there with the two-wheel small cart (I'm sorry not to know how to translate it to english), bags made of cloth, or plastic bags from outside -in fact, I carry in my backpack some plastic bags to use them when required-.

[Broomstick]

The effect I'm seeing is that more and more people go there with the two-wheel small cart (I'm sorry not to know how to translate it to english)

"Hand cart" or "shopping cart", at least in North America.

[U-95]

Thanks, Broomstick.

On the topic of the recylement of bottles, the Senate -the spanish one, I mean- will study how to reimplement the old method of returning used ones. The difference is that what you buy something bottled it will have an extra charge that will be returned when you bring back the used bottle.

[Simon_Jester]

It seems a bit punitive to apply that tax to glass bottles as well as plastic.

[Broomstick]

Refundable deposits on glass bottles were once commonplace in the US - I remember it from when I was a child which, admittedly, was some decades in the past. Why would it be more punitive to impose this on glass than on plastic?

[Simon_Jester]

I like the idea of refundable deposits. I don't like the idea of pitching it as a tax on all bottles.

[folti78]

It's not a tax, it's the price of the bottle. Practically you buy the bottle separately from it's content (another entry on the receipt) and when you bring back an empty bottle, it's price will be deducted from your next purchase. Too bad, not all glass bottles are refundable and many beverage manufacturers fought tooth and nail to replace their bottles with non-refundable plastic ones or simply declaring their glass bottles non-refundable (looking at you Coca-Cola and Pepsi).

EDIT: what would be reasonable as a tax is something levied on non-reusable plastic bottles, to cover the costs of their recycling. Everything from building and the selective dumpsters (around here they are for paper, plastic stuff, white glass, colored glass, metal containers like cans), to fund the promotion of their uses and operating the recycling works.

[Simon_Jester]

I suppose it's just a matter of bookkeeping- what I want to avoid, though, is a situation where the state is requiring extra charges of some kind for all forms of containers. You have to carry your goods around in something, after all, and it undermines the goal of shifting people towards reusable containers if there's a tax on glass bottles.

Also, how do the ecological costs of glass bottles compare to plastic? There's no petrochemical issue, and glass is chemically inert so it's a lot less of a pollution issue, I'd think.

[Questor]

Refundable deposits on glass bottles were once commonplace in the US - I remember it from when I was a child which, admittedly, was some decades in the past. Why would it be more punitive to impose this on glass than on plastic?

In California, we have CRV, that operates on just about every beverage.

[Netko]

The thing is, the charges on plastic and glass bottles really do help tremendously with both recycling and keeping littering down. We used to have a problem with parks being littered with 0.5L plastic bottles and even more so broken glass ones. Nowadays? Not a single one. Why? Because each can be sold back to shops for 0.5kn (0.10$) with no fuss (they must allow you to get actual money back, not just credit). So, there are unemployed/destitute people who supplement their income by picking up the bottles and returning them for recycling. Same deal with the glass ones - since they have worth to the drunks who drink in parks, they no longer smash them (coincidentally making parks dangerous for kids - that's the issue with glass that is, in some respects, even more immediate then plastic), but return them to get a discount on their next drink.

The levying of the recyclable container surcharge has been consistently considered the most effective conservation policy in this country.

[Simon_Jester]

Eh. I like the idea of paying people to bring the bottle back; it's probably just me being silly that I dislike the idea of explicitly charging people for the bottle at the front end of the process.

I'm not going to try to explain that feeling any more; again, it's probably just me being silly.

[Slacker]

That's still commonplace here in the US, or at least, here in New York and the remainder of the Northeast-virtually every grocery store and even most chains like Walmart have the recycling machines you feed the cans and bottles into to get your five cents back. We also have a pretty comprehensive paper and plastic recycling program our town and county is responsible for running. The plastic that grocery bags are made of is part of that, although like I said they're reused as lunch bags, litter box bags, trash bags, and what have you in the Slacker household and normally never make it there.

[U-95]

We'll see how they end implementing the recycle of all bottles and cans; that of paying you for the glass bottles you return was used here many years ago -in fact, I think I can recall when I was a child carriying an empty glass bottle to get the refund- and should have return.
I forgot to mention the beer comes also in bottles of 1 litre that are a common sight on parks and the like.

What I don't like is the system of having you to pay an extra fee for the package that it's returned when you return the bottle. Since it's included on the price of the product you buy, the mentioned product should be cheaper; ie, you'd pay what it costs + what it costs the package. However, I suspect they'll take advantage of it to increase prices; the product will cost the same and you'll have to pay what costs the package, despite it's returned and they may even charge to the consumers the cost of the recycling system -it's something like the digital canon; when it was implemented, it was supposed consumers would not pay it. However, we ended paying it and seeing how the costs of the stuff subject to it climbed (and more than they should)-


I support everything that's intended to protect the environment; however, no few people use it to get extra profits andthat's what I dislike.

[folti78]

What I don't like is the system of having you to pay an extra fee for the package that it's returned when you return the bottle. Since it's included on the price of the product you buy, the mentioned product should be cheaper; ie, you'd pay what it costs + what it costs the package. However, I suspect they'll take advantage of it to increase prices; the product will cost the same and you'll have to pay what costs the package, despite it's returned and they may even charge to the consumers the cost of the recycling system -it's something like the digital canon; when it was implemented, it was supposed consumers would not pay it. However, we ended paying it and seeing how the costs of the stuff subject to it climbed (and more than they should)

Here the pricing works that bottled products' price doesn't contain the price of the bottle itself and in most cases it's cheaper than the same volume canned. Also all price labels contain the '+üveg' (+bottle) or '+ü' tags to warn you. Example: the bottled versus canned beers in the webshop of a local retail store(clickt on the UK flag on the top right corner for english version). The bottles cost about 10-15 HUF. For common denominators, check the Soproni and the Borsodi brands.

Of course you can always leave it to the politicians and the lobbyists to come up with a fucked up solution ...